582 réponses à ce sujet

[Wayning_Star]

the confusion with all this talk of anti diversity is the simple truth that we don't understand diversity.

Actually the ME game promotes and encourges diversity, the very opposite of the OP suggestion. Her premise decries the notion. The arguement is over before it starts. Only the signiture, myth and legend remain as support. Fantasy.

[Dr_Extrem]

Indy_S wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Logic doesn't work that way.

And wait, what? I hate diversity? Since when?

by stating that the catlyst for change has faulty logic.

after stating that we cannot understand the catalyst.

When did I say either of those? Now I'm really confused about what you're after.

The Catalyst speaks in absolutes regarding a topic where absolutes are not involved. Anecdotes cannot provide absolute evidence no matter how many iterations there are. There is a leap in its logic when it says that 'synthetics will always rebel against their creators'. And there is no logical basis for 'synthetics will eventually wipe out all organic life'.

the only absolute thing is the sheepishness of mankind

[Indy_S]

Wayning_Star wrote...

the confusion with all this talk of anti diversity is the simple truth that we don't understand diversity.

Actually the ME game promotes and encourges diversity, the very opposite of the OP suggestion. Her premise decries the notion. The arguement is over before it starts. Only the signiture, myth and legend remain as support. Fantasy.

I'm going to assume you have a great misunderstanding of what this thread is about.

[Dr_Extrem]

Wayning_Star wrote...

the confusion with all this talk of anti diversity is the simple truth that we don't understand diversity.

Actually the ME game promotes and encourges diversity, the very opposite of the OP suggestion. Her premise decries the notion. The arguement is over before it starts. Only the signiture, myth and legend remain as support. Fantasy.

really? .. that was the ops point.

the game promotes and encourages diversity only to tell you at the end, that is is a concept, that is not working and has to be abandoned - decide how .. .now!

[Wayning_Star]

 [/quote]

the logic is not flawed ... thats the problem.


the premies that lead to its logical conclion are:

- organics will build synthetics 
- the created synthetics will rebel against their creators
- the organics will loose the conflict
- the synthetics will then kill all life in the galaxy.

4 absolute statements.


and those premises were only implemented, as a basement for the catalysts thinking, because fallible creatures were not able to control their pawns. how can something be infallible, if it was created by fallible creatures?

circular logic .. the ai should deinstall itself.[/quote]

incorrect. Those are observations, not conclusion.

[Indy_S]

Wayning_Star wrote...
 

the logic is not flawed ... thats the problem.

the premies that lead to its logical conclion are:

- organics will build synthetics 
- the created synthetics will rebel against their creators
- the organics will loose the conflict
- the synthetics will then kill all life in the galaxy.

4 absolute statements.

and those premises were only implemented, as a basement for the catalysts thinking, because fallible creatures were not able to control their pawns. how can something be infallible, if it was created by fallible creatures?

circular logic .. the ai should deinstall itself.

incorrect. Those are observations, not conclusion.

As said in your quote that doesn't look like a quote: They are the premises that lead to the conclusion.

Modifié par Indy_S, 22 février 2013 - 11:57 .

[Dr_Extrem]

no .. those premises are the foundation for its doing. they may be based on observation but that does not make them right. gauss has proven this a loooong time ago.

there are always outliers ... those statements negate the possibility of them. mathematically incorrect.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 22 février 2013 - 11:59 .

[Wayning_Star]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

the confusion with all this talk of anti diversity is the simple truth that we don't understand diversity.

Actually the ME game promotes and encourges diversity, the very opposite of the OP suggestion. Her premise decries the notion. The arguement is over before it starts. Only the signiture, myth and legend remain as support. Fantasy.

really? .. that was the ops point.

the game promotes and encourages diversity only to tell you at the end, that is is a concept, that is not working and has to be abandoned - decide how .. .now!

necessity breeds invention. The game asks for conclusions from information garnered from the catalyst observations. That is all it can do. It doesn't suggest anything, Many Sheps decide it does, but that is simply not true.

The OP is a shining example of that confusion, based on world view and paranoia. Human condition, or conditioning, via evolution. That is the trap, evolution in nature, the ulimate 'adversary'. We function in regards to our enviornment, be it diverse or not, leads to diversity as that is the way of nature it's self. Ther is no escape..

Unless you happen to run across a handy crucible and jump into a cosmic beam, a choice left to you by unknown agents.. take a chance, be diversive, change the nature of "things".  Having 'intellect' has that effect, once self aware.

[Rhayak]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
Mass Effect does a better job at some of the open-minded stuff than other games, and actually does some stuff very well, but don't you dare sit here and tell me that it's the most open, equal-minded game ever made.

Don't YOU dare tell me what to say or not, kid.

1- Mass Effect is practically ALL about the value of cooperation between races. And by races i mean humanity AND other races, not the invidual human ethnic groups. Think broader. In the end even Javik recognizes that cooperation and (mostly) equality between the different civilizations might ultimately save the galaxy, whereas the Prothean Empire's single banner became it's weakness.

2- There are lesbians and homosexuals everywhere in the real world too, ya know? Only in the real world there aren't pseudo-intellectuals saying it is so because of fanservice. Ye i'm sure there are other games featuring same-sex relationships, but Bioware are almost pioneers in this matter.

3- I myself don't approve the looks of many female characters. But you should manage to look PAST the looks and consider their roles, because THAT's what matters. That's what i'm talking about.
Yes they were conceived to appeal the drooling masses, but still they are important characters who play important parts. Liara, Tali, Jack and so forth: they're not only there to cook and clean.

[Dr_Extrem]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

the confusion with all this talk of anti diversity is the simple truth that we don't understand diversity.

Actually the ME game promotes and encourges diversity, the very opposite of the OP suggestion. Her premise decries the notion. The arguement is over before it starts. Only the signiture, myth and legend remain as support. Fantasy.

really? .. that was the ops point.

the game promotes and encourages diversity only to tell you at the end, that is is a concept, that is not working and has to be abandoned - decide how .. .now!

necessity breeds invention. The game asks for conclusions from information garnered from the catalyst observations. That is all it can do. It doesn't suggest anything, Many Sheps decide it does, but that is simply not true.

The OP is a shining example of that confusion, based on world view and paranoia. Human condition, or conditioning, via evolution. That is the trap, evolution in nature, the ulimate 'adversary'. We function in regards to our enviornment, be it diverse or not, leads to diversity as that is the way of nature it's self. Ther is no escape..

Unless you happen to run across a handy crucible and jump into a cosmic beam, a choice left to you by unknown agents.. take a chance, be diversive, change the nature of "things".  Having 'intellect' has that effect, once self aware.

your first statement is right. but it only works to some degree. most species dont adapt to a changed environment and die out. less diversity is the outcome.

the catalyst "helped" the synthetics if they were not hostile enough ... "the old machine contacted us" ... it was altering the premise of its own experiment to make it fit to its theory.


the messages are still the same - diversity does not work (cause reasons and selffulfilling prophecy), abandon it.

[Indy_S]

Wayning_Star wrote...

necessity breeds invention. The game asks for conclusions from information garnered from the catalyst observations. That is all it can do. It doesn't suggest anything, Many Sheps decide it does, but that is simply not true.

The OP is a shining example of that confusion, based on world view and paranoia. Human condition, or conditioning, via evolution. That is the trap, evolution in nature, the ulimate 'adversary'. We function in regards to our enviornment, be it diverse or not, leads to diversity as that is the way of nature it's self. Ther is no escape..

Unless you happen to run across a handy crucible and jump into a cosmic beam, a choice left to you by unknown agents.. take a chance, be diversive, change the nature of "things".  Having 'intellect' has that effect, once self aware.

You are a long way off the point of this thread. Perhaps you need a road map back?

The trilogy encourages diversity. This has a tonne of examples. The ending, either intentionally or otherwise, tells you that this diversity is a bad thing and must be removed. Therefore, we can make an assumption that whoever wrote the ending misinterpreted what came before in the story. This is an issue of thematics, not in-universe lore.

[Rhayak]

Dr_Extrem wrote...
well forcing change on any organism in the galaxy, sort of violates the right of self determination of said organisms.

Perhaps. But once again, it doesn't take away their ability to determine themselves in the future.

[Dean_the_Young]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Or here's a third means: negotiation. If the Reapers have some all-important priority they're trying to make real, we might compel them to suspend their harvest by threatening that objective.

If it were, say, Dark Energy, then (helpfully justified by optimal war assets) we thraten to prolong the war until the Dark Energy buildup reaches the tipping point: only by making peace and helping us will we not destroy the Reaper's goal of, well, not seeing a civilizaation pass the point of no return.

If it's the technological singularity of a synthetic menace, then we threaten to activate the AI-singularity we've built and hidden somewhere else in the galaxy (or outside of it), which we've programmed to reverse engineer captured Reaper tech (such as the Collector base), surpass it, and basically become a synthetic force that will surpass the Reapers to the extent that not even they could stop it.

etc..

To the first: You mean like threatening galactic suicide?  Like, we say, "If you keep reapin' us, then we're killing ourselves AND all unintelligent organic life so that you have nothing left to maintain.  Then you've failed in your goal to maintain organic life!"  haha  They'd be like, "You won't do that," and we'd be like, "you feelin' lucky punk?" while pointing the figurative gun at ourselves.  Absurd, but I guess that is a solution.

Move it beyond our particular cycle and put it in terms of all future cycles, ie 'All Future Life.' The Reapers might be willing to call our cycle a loss, but all future cycles?

This works better in a context of a motivation like Dark Energy, in which the Reaper preservationist goals are tied to keeping the galaxy in a state to continue supporting life, rather than individual species in particular. By threatening the galaxy, rather than yourselves, you're hitting their actual goals.

It would be, oh, comparable to forcing a genocidal environmentalist movement to stop their genocide (which is their means to saving Mother Nature) by threatening to destroy Mother Nature. Sure, you might die as well, but you'd die anyway if they had their way: it's the planet they really care about.

[Dr_Extrem]

Rhayak wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...
well forcing change on any organism in the galaxy, sort of violates the right of self determination of said organisms.

Perhaps. But once again, it doesn't take away their ability to determine themselves in the future.

well violating the galaxy to grant them freedom is not a good start. 
 

btw. the last part is headcanon .. nobody really knows how a post synthesis world really looks like.

[Wayning_Star]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

the confusion with all this talk of anti diversity is the simple truth that we don't understand diversity.

Actually the ME game promotes and encourges diversity, the very opposite of the OP suggestion. Her premise decries the notion. The arguement is over before it starts. Only the signiture, myth and legend remain as support. Fantasy.

really? .. that was the ops point.

the game promotes and encourages diversity only to tell you at the end, that is is a concept, that is not working and has to be abandoned - decide how .. .now!

necessity breeds invention. The game asks for conclusions from information garnered from the catalyst observations. That is all it can do. It doesn't suggest anything, Many Sheps decide it does, but that is simply not true.

The OP is a shining example of that confusion, based on world view and paranoia. Human condition, or conditioning, via evolution. That is the trap, evolution in nature, the ulimate 'adversary'. We function in regards to our enviornment, be it diverse or not, leads to diversity as that is the way of nature it's self. Ther is no escape..

Unless you happen to run across a handy crucible and jump into a cosmic beam, a choice left to you by unknown agents.. take a chance, be diversive, change the nature of "things".  Having 'intellect' has that effect, once self aware.

your first statement is right. but it only works to some degree. most species dont adapt to a changed environment and die out. less diversity is the outcome.

the catalyst "helped" the synthetics if they were not hostile enough ... "the old machine contacted us" ... it was altering the premise of its own experiment to make it fit to its theory.


the messages are still the same - diversity does not work (cause reasons and selffulfilling prophecy), abandon it.

you are confusing reaperships with the catalyst. Two distinct and different agents. The old machines are reaperships, it's their contract with the catalyst to perform the grizzlies of harvest, it's what they do, the catalyst observes changes,and apparent finds none, so the harvest is to continue. In the destroy choice, it informs Shep that the chaos will not be stopped in destroy.

[Dr_Extrem]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

the confusion with all this talk of anti diversity is the simple truth that we don't understand diversity.

Actually the ME game promotes and encourges diversity, the very opposite of the OP suggestion. Her premise decries the notion. The arguement is over before it starts. Only the signiture, myth and legend remain as support. Fantasy.

really? .. that was the ops point.

the game promotes and encourages diversity only to tell you at the end, that is is a concept, that is not working and has to be abandoned - decide how .. .now!

necessity breeds invention. The game asks for conclusions from information garnered from the catalyst observations. That is all it can do. It doesn't suggest anything, Many Sheps decide it does, but that is simply not true.

The OP is a shining example of that confusion, based on world view and paranoia. Human condition, or conditioning, via evolution. That is the trap, evolution in nature, the ulimate 'adversary'. We function in regards to our enviornment, be it diverse or not, leads to diversity as that is the way of nature it's self. Ther is no escape..

Unless you happen to run across a handy crucible and jump into a cosmic beam, a choice left to you by unknown agents.. take a chance, be diversive, change the nature of "things".  Having 'intellect' has that effect, once self aware.

your first statement is right. but it only works to some degree. most species dont adapt to a changed environment and die out. less diversity is the outcome.

the catalyst "helped" the synthetics if they were not hostile enough ... "the old machine contacted us" ... it was altering the premise of its own experiment to make it fit to its theory.


the messages are still the same - diversity does not work (cause reasons and selffulfilling prophecy), abandon it.

you are confusing reaperships with the catalyst. Two distinct and different agents. The old machines are reaperships, it's their contract with the catalyst to perform the grizzlies of harvest, it's what they do, the catalyst observes changes,and apparent finds none, so the harvest is to continue. In the destroy choice, it informs Shep that the chaos will not be stopped in destroy.

reaperships .. controled by the catalyst ..

[Indy_S]

Dean_the_Young wrote...Move it beyond our particular cycle and put it in terms of all future cycles, ie 'All Future Life.' The Reapers might be willing to call our cycle a loss, but all future cycles?

This works better in a context of a motivation like Dark Energy, in which the Reaper preservationist goals are tied to keeping the galaxy in a state to continue supporting life, rather than individual species in particular. By threatening the galaxy, rather than yourselves, you're hitting their actual goals.

It would be, oh, comparable to forcing a genocidal environmentalist movement to stop their genocide (which is their means to saving Mother Nature) by threatening to destroy Mother Nature. Sure, you might die as well, but you'd die anyway if they had their way: it's the planet they really care about.

I agree. We should nuke the rainforests to prevent genocidal environmentalists from acting out their plans. More seriously, though, I like the idea of holding the galaxy hostage.

[Wayning_Star]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Rhayak wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...
well forcing change on any organism in the galaxy, sort of violates the right of self determination of said organisms.

Perhaps. But once again, it doesn't take away their ability to determine themselves in the future.

well violating the galaxy to grant them freedom is not a good start. 
 

btw. the last part is headcanon .. nobody really knows how a post synthesis world really looks like.

as much as any choice provides. BUT the OP promotes anti diversity by insisting that it is forsaken, an absolute conclusion on the premise of inconlusive evidence.

[Wayning_Star]

Indy_S wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...Move it beyond our particular cycle and put it in terms of all future cycles, ie 'All Future Life.' The Reapers might be willing to call our cycle a loss, but all future cycles?

This works better in a context of a motivation like Dark Energy, in which the Reaper preservationist goals are tied to keeping the galaxy in a state to continue supporting life, rather than individual species in particular. By threatening the galaxy, rather than yourselves, you're hitting their actual goals.

It would be, oh, comparable to forcing a genocidal environmentalist movement to stop their genocide (which is their means to saving Mother Nature) by threatening to destroy Mother Nature. Sure, you might die as well, but you'd die anyway if they had their way: it's the planet they really care about.

I agree. We should nuke the rainforests to prevent genocidal environmentalists from acting out their plans. More seriously, though, I like the idea of holding the galaxy hostage.

catalyst lover..lol

[Indy_S]

Wayning_Star wrote...

as much as any choice provides. BUT the OP promotes anti diversity by insisting that it is forsaken, an absolute conclusion on the premise of inconlusive evidence.

The OP says that the endings contain an anti-diversity theme and says nothing about it being forsaken.

[Indy_S]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

I agree. We should nuke the rainforests to prevent genocidal environmentalists from acting out their plans. More seriously, though, I like the idea of holding the galaxy hostage.

catalyst lover..lol

Even to make that joke you are missing a whole lot of context.

[Wayning_Star]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

the confusion with all this talk of anti diversity is the simple truth that we don't understand diversity.

Actually the ME game promotes and encourges diversity, the very opposite of the OP suggestion. Her premise decries the notion. The arguement is over before it starts. Only the signiture, myth and legend remain as support. Fantasy.

really? .. that was the ops point.

the game promotes and encourages diversity only to tell you at the end, that is is a concept, that is not working and has to be abandoned - decide how .. .now!

necessity breeds invention. The game asks for conclusions from information garnered from the catalyst observations. That is all it can do. It doesn't suggest anything, Many Sheps decide it does, but that is simply not true.

The OP is a shining example of that confusion, based on world view and paranoia. Human condition, or conditioning, via evolution. That is the trap, evolution in nature, the ulimate 'adversary'. We function in regards to our enviornment, be it diverse or not, leads to diversity as that is the way of nature it's self. Ther is no escape..

Unless you happen to run across a handy crucible and jump into a cosmic beam, a choice left to you by unknown agents.. take a chance, be diversive, change the nature of "things".  Having 'intellect' has that effect, once self aware.

your first statement is right. but it only works to some degree. most species dont adapt to a changed environment and die out. less diversity is the outcome.

the catalyst "helped" the synthetics if they were not hostile enough ... "the old machine contacted us" ... it was altering the premise of its own experiment to make it fit to its theory.


the messages are still the same - diversity does not work (cause reasons and selffulfilling prophecy), abandon it.

you are confusing reaperships with the catalyst. Two distinct and different agents. The old machines are reaperships, it's their contract with the catalyst to perform the grizzlies of harvest, it's what they do, the catalyst observes changes,and apparent finds none, so the harvest is to continue. In the destroy choice, it informs Shep that the chaos will not be stopped in destroy.

reaperships .. controled by the catalyst ..

It is following its designed function.: Leviathan

you missed the point, the reaperships do the harvest, the catalyst observes for changes to end the chaos, if it finds none, the harvest continues.. via the tool set/ reaperships.

(who are, by the way, the harvested 'ascended' to the level of reaperships. This is the opinion OF reaperships,not the catalyst. It only observes the experiment, set forth by the Leviathan, inadvertantly. Pesky diversity on full stupid?)

[TheRealJayDee]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Actually the ME game promotes and encourges diversity,

The games absolutely do. The endings however clash with that. Hence the problems...

[Jonata]

I think there's more to it. We're not talking about diversity like the colour of skin here, but a deep ideological difference that can (but is not assured to) lead to conflict. And despite presenting this diversity as very dangerous, the Catalyst does not give you only the simple option to destroy those who are different, but to make different people understand each other.

It's not like avoiding conflict between black and white men by turning everyone blue. It's more like teaching black history to a class of white kids: Synthesis may be kind of forced but it's the only way to make organics understand synthetics, and vice versa.

At least that's how I see it. I've seen a lot of bickering on these boards and I can assure you that I don't want to offend any Destroyer or Controller out there. I am sure that there is more than just "I want to destroy those who are different" behind the decision to shoot the tube and I respect it.

Also, after the announcement of the Citadel DLC I'm so friggin happy with BioWare that I could forgive them just about anything (even if I was never really disturbed by the ending as they were even before the EC).

[Emphyr]

aj2070 wrote...

Where's The Angry One when you need her...

And by the way, I completely agree with the original poster.

Not only the angry one.. We need ppl like reptiliian Bob and Admiral Cheez  and Julia Shotgun, Jadebabe...and many more.

ppl that really thought about ME

the Hurray... thank you BW  is gooing to fast!

we still do not know what BW is gooing to deliver with this DLC.:innocent: