582 réponses à ce sujet

[Wayning_Star]

Indy_S wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

good ol survival of the fittest clause..

unfortunately, the Lion learns to run faster as well..

You did it too. Stop putting the / at the start of the quote.

The Lion would learn to run faster. Alternately, other methods of attack and defense would arise. Ambushes negate a zebra's speed so the stealthier lions could grab them. Camouflage disrupts a predator's ability to recognise what it's seeing, so a zebra can hide by changing its appearance. This is likely what caused it to have its stripes in the first place.

Yeah, happens when I try to trim the posts down to limit the pyramids... I'm not too keen on this chatter box..kind of clunky, or I am not fully synthesised yet..lol

I've heard of bugs that immitate others to make predators think they're poisonous. Red and Yellow I think is a sign that the dinner may not be as good as first thought.

edit: heres an interesting bit of trivia

http://www.mirror.co...f-stick-1418325

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 22 février 2013 - 02:25 .

[Dr_Extrem]

shodiswe wrote...

The next stop would certainly be to go beyond the limitations of the limited parameters that drives natural evolution... It is however very controversial and as everythign else has it's risks. Like curing diabetes and cancer or at least makign it far less common by changing genetic code that causes severe health issues.

Then we got the issue with parrents who want's to "craft" the perfect childen.. Like Miranda in Mass effect...

Her father was according to that asari mercenary the richest person in the galaxy... and as we learn later a cerberus supporter/member... Anyway.. People will want to limit it and there will be people looking for way to accomplish it anyway.

I think Dr Bashir in DS9 was another example of excessive genetic tampering.

this procedure was forbidden for a reason (kahn) and dr. bashirs dad went to prison for it.

[shodiswe]

I do belive there is a risk in tampering with the DNA too much since that might make people more receptible to other diseases like bacteria and viruses if peopel become too mcuh alike eachother because society and people belives a certain genetic setup is best or most efficient the genetic differentiation might suffer... Or perhaps even stop other interesting developments of evolution.

[shodiswe]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

The next stop would certainly be to go beyond the limitations of the limited parameters that drives natural evolution... It is however very controversial and as everythign else has it's risks. Like curing diabetes and cancer or at least makign it far less common by changing genetic code that causes severe health issues.

Then we got the issue with parrents who want's to "craft" the perfect childen.. Like Miranda in Mass effect...

Her father was according to that asari mercenary the richest person in the galaxy... and as we learn later a cerberus supporter/member... Anyway.. People will want to limit it and there will be people looking for way to accomplish it anyway.

I think Dr Bashir in DS9 was another example of excessive genetic tampering.

this procedure was forbidden for a reason (kahn) and dr. bashirs dad went to prison for it.

yes, I know... Still doens't meen it wont happen or that people will try to conrol it, limit it while other will break prohibitions.

If a select few breaks those prohibitions they might reap great rewards if they get away with it and they woudln't have to fear the majority becomming too mcih like them so that they become to receptible to diseases... Like some geneticly enginered or breed crops..

[shodiswe]

The thing is, these are very complex issues, and we know too little about the Catalysts solution. It coudl be that it's great and it's jsut the catalyst who's bad because of what it did to create the solution.

It's like Maelons research data... Data that can save one life and possibly help save a whole civilization because that one life might become very important to the future of that people. But at the same time it was derived from acts of pure evil. (depending on the views of the beholder ofcourse)

Modifié par shodiswe, 22 février 2013 - 02:25 .

[mvaning]

shodiswe wrote...

I do belive there is a risk in tampering with the DNA too much since that might make people more receptible to other diseases like bacteria and viruses if peopel become too mcuh alike eachother because society and people belives a certain genetic setup is best or most efficient the genetic differentiation might suffer... Or perhaps even stop other interesting developments of evolution.

Cancer is caused by genetic abnormalitiies.

[shodiswe]

mvaning wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

I do belive there is a risk in tampering with the DNA too much since that might make people more receptible to other diseases like bacteria and viruses if peopel become too mcuh alike eachother because society and people belives a certain genetic setup is best or most efficient the genetic differentiation might suffer... Or perhaps even stop other interesting developments of evolution.

Cancer is caused by genetic abnormalitiies.

Yes, and some people have inherrent genetic setups that increases the risk for cancer greatly. Which is exactly my point.

Some have geneticsequences that makes it easier for them to get Diabetes, and they pass it on to their children.

Modifié par shodiswe, 22 février 2013 - 02:27 .

[Wayning_Star]

genetic abnormalities are caused by ??

[Indy_S]

Wayning_Star wrote...

genetic abnormalities are caused by ??

A combination of mutation and expiration.

[shodiswe]

Wayning_Star wrote...

genetic abnormalities are caused by ??

Cppy failures when an old cell is replaced. Some genetic sequences makes it easier for severe forms of cancer to "happen" they don't nessesarily have to happen durign a person life tiem but it can increase risks considerably.. Like having a 50/50 risk of contracting cancer while another might have 1 in 10 or something. Cells not dying when they should.

Modifié par shodiswe, 22 février 2013 - 02:30 .

[Dr_Extrem]

or tixic chemicals like benzen,

when the body tries to metabolise it using cytochrom p450, a very reactive intermediate is build, that adds to dna.

the result is cancer.

[shodiswe]

Considering every cell in you body will get replaced several times durign your life span, there is a lot that can go wrong. You also arnt the same organism you were ten years ago, all cells have been replaced. But hopefully youre a fairly similar copy to what you were even if there is degradation.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

The root of the problem with the catalyst scene is the fact that Shepard just accepts and surrenders to the Catalyst's logic and demands, a problem that still remains in the EC. The Catalyst wanted a new solution, and Shepard as the hero should have given him one, one that is not based on these insane choices.

So pretend your Shepard, and the Catalyst has just gotten done talking to you.  What would you do?  What "new solution" is there other than the ones the Crucible facilitates?  I'm not being sarcastic, I'd genuinely be interested to know.

I was thinking a compromise would be met. If you managed to create peace on Rannoch, Shepard convinces the Catalyst and the Reapers just to leave, nothing more. Organics have already proven we can resist against a superior force and build the crucible, so if there ever will be some sort of major AI uprising threatning us. We will just build a new crucible, pop that sucker in the Citadel and blow the synthethics sky-high.

Unfortunately the peace on Rannoch doesn't prove anything.  It proves that organics and synthetics can cooperate.  It doesn't disprove the Catalyst's maintained view that eventual genocide is inevitable.  The Catalyst's response would be: "Just because they are cooperating today, doesn't mean that they'll cooperate tomorrow."

And you'd have to get the Crucible to the Citadel before they blow it up.  That's hard to do, so it's hard to threaten them with that.

The catalyst is quite content with destroy, after all he accepts it despite warning that the chaos will come back.  So the second part seems irrelevant.

As mentioned by post before, the catalyst is operating on faulty logic by using absoluts, Shepard could point out this fallacy and have the catalyst consider other options.

[Subject M]

Well, without having read all the replies in this thread, I agree to some extent on what OP says. (I even made my own statement about it many months ago). There definitely is a crypto-totalitarian "message"in the endings that is built on ideas we find in ultra-nationalist and supremacist movements.

Modifié par Subject M, 22 février 2013 - 02:42 .

[shodiswe]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

or tixic chemicals like benzen,

when the body tries to metabolise it using cytochrom p450, a very reactive intermediate is build, that adds to dna.

the result is cancer.

That too, but that's an external factor, it's not directly tied to evolution or normal biological processes. Mutageneic substances, as unhealthy as they are environmental...

Like sunlight, even if yet again, some people are more suceptible to those external factors than others due to their genetic setup. Risk factors add up.

[shodiswe]

Lizardviking wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

The root of the problem with the catalyst scene is the fact that Shepard just accepts and surrenders to the Catalyst's logic and demands, a problem that still remains in the EC. The Catalyst wanted a new solution, and Shepard as the hero should have given him one, one that is not based on these insane choices.

So pretend your Shepard, and the Catalyst has just gotten done talking to you.  What would you do?  What "new solution" is there other than the ones the Crucible facilitates?  I'm not being sarcastic, I'd genuinely be interested to know.

I was thinking a compromise would be met. If you managed to create peace on Rannoch, Shepard convinces the Catalyst and the Reapers just to leave, nothing more. Organics have already proven we can resist against a superior force and build the crucible, so if there ever will be some sort of major AI uprising threatning us. We will just build a new crucible, pop that sucker in the Citadel and blow the synthethics sky-high.

Unfortunately the peace on Rannoch doesn't prove anything.  It proves that organics and synthetics can cooperate.  It doesn't disprove the Catalyst's maintained view that eventual genocide is inevitable.  The Catalyst's response would be: "Just because they are cooperating today, doesn't mean that they'll cooperate tomorrow."

And you'd have to get the Crucible to the Citadel before they blow it up.  That's hard to do, so it's hard to threaten them with that.

The catalyst is quite content with destroy, after all he accepts it despite warning that the chaos will come back.  So the second part seems irrelevant.

As mentioned by post before, the catalyst is operating on faulty logic by using absoluts, Shepard could point out this fallacy and have the catalyst consider other options.

The problem might be that the catalyst is as arrogant as it creators and belives it's the messiah of it's particular function... It thinks it holds all the answers. You likely wont be able to argue a point with it, even if you can learn more about what drives it.
If they had known more aobut the catalysts motives earlier, then it might have been possible to enforce more changes and options. But at that moment where Shepard is standing there, bleeding to death and reapers destroyign the galactic fleet... It's too late to manipulate the situation.
The catalyst might have been interested in other options if certain options have been blocked and others provided(that it could accept).

[Wayning_Star]

shodiswe wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

or tixic chemicals like benzen,

when the body tries to metabolise it using cytochrom p450, a very reactive intermediate is build, that adds to dna.

the result is cancer.

That too, but that's an external factor, it's not directly tied to evolution or normal biological processes. Mutageneic substances, as unhealthy as they are environmental...

Like sunlight, even if yet again, some people are more suceptible to those external factors than others due to their genetic setup. Risk factors add up.

Kind of hints at a regulatory aspect to evolution, either it makes you stronger or weakens the system, gene dependent. Either way time and pressure exerts change.

One old gal that I read of said that its possible and even as much as probably that cosmic particles can impact cells altering their structure long enough, if they're having a propencity, and that can result in cell damage/cancer.

I cannot remember her name, but she was in her late 80's and a geneticist of high stature,bio engineer and others. She was one of those genus folks, as later she got into astro physics as a hobby...sheesh, enough is enough..lol
anyway that's why I remembered her.

[Obadiah]

Shep spent 3 games bringing together diverse groups of beings, but because this fictional story involves two groups where one will inevitably destroy the other, the message is supposed to be anti-diversity?

In one of the endings everyone, even the enemy, is explicitly empowered. The premise of this thread's title is ridiculous.

[L_B_123]

The AI when created was designed to follow this, it's just a shame that's it so recognisable in the outside world that Bioware looks entirely racist.i didn't notice on my first run as I figured it made sense about synthetics an organically as the protheons also made some that rebelled. On play though 2 I thought it was rather evil. Differences lead to disagreements and war- kill them before they attack.

[Dr_Extrem]

Wayning_Star wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

or tixic chemicals like benzen,

when the body tries to metabolise it using cytochrom p450, a very reactive intermediate is build, that adds to dna.

the result is cancer.

That too, but that's an external factor, it's not directly tied to evolution or normal biological processes. Mutageneic substances, as unhealthy as they are environmental...

Like sunlight, even if yet again, some people are more suceptible to those external factors than others due to their genetic setup. Risk factors add up.

Kind of hints at a regulatory aspect to evolution, either it makes you stronger or weakens the system, gene dependent. Either way time and pressure exerts change.

One old gal that I read of said that its possible and even as much as probably that cosmic particles can impact cells altering their structure long enough, if they're having a propencity, and that can result in cell damage/cancer.

I cannot remember her name, but she was in her late 80's and a geneticist of high stature,bio engineer and others. She was one of those genus folks, as later she got into astro physics as a hobby...sheesh, enough is enough..lol
anyway that's why I remembered her.

liver cancer caued by benzen will not make you harder .. it will lead to a slow and painfull death.

[Wayning_Star]

The problem might be that the catalyst is as arrogant as it creators and belives it's the messiah of it's particular function... It thinks it holds all the answers. You likely wont be able to argue a point with it, even if you can learn more about what drives it.
If they had known more aobut the catalysts motives earlier, then it might have been possible to enforce more changes and options. But at that moment where Shepard is standing there, bleeding to death and reapers destroyign the galactic fleet... It's too late to manipulate the situation.
The catalyst might have been interested in other options if certain options have been blocked and others provided(that it could accept).

I cannot see the cat as arrogant,more predetermined, as in programmed. The messiah part is only priority, with a bunch of power to back it up,hence deity status.

Nor can it have motives, only regimes. It only observes and changes to alter its observations according to the experiment implimented by it's creators. That is all it has as an identity. Barely a sentient AI. That's why it seems so alien, because it is alien. As you say, there is little known about its function other than the harvest/cycle/pattern/chaos.

[RedBeardJim]

Wayning_Star wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

or tixic chemicals like benzen,

when the body tries to metabolise it using cytochrom p450, a very reactive intermediate is build, that adds to dna.

the result is cancer.

That too, but that's an external factor, it's not directly tied to evolution or normal biological processes. Mutageneic substances, as unhealthy as they are environmental...

Like sunlight, even if yet again, some people are more suceptible to those external factors than others due to their genetic setup. Risk factors add up.

Kind of hints at a regulatory aspect to evolution, either it makes you stronger or weakens the system, gene dependent. Either way time and pressure exerts change.

One old gal that I read of said that its possible and even as much as probably that cosmic particles can impact cells altering their structure long enough, if they're having a propencity, and that can result in cell damage/cancer.

I cannot remember her name, but she was in her late 80's and a geneticist of high stature,bio engineer and others. She was one of those genus folks, as later she got into astro physics as a hobby...sheesh, enough is enough..lol
anyway that's why I remembered her.

Evolution is just change. Some change may make you more likely to survive and/or reproduce, and will over time become more common in the population. Some change may have the opposite effect, with the opposite result. And some change is just change, variation. And it's all dependent on the environmental context -- something that's a huge advantage under certain conditions may be useless or even harmful under other conditions.

What are "cosmic particles", exactly? Not a term I'm familiar with. Cosmic *radiation* is just a high-energy type of EM radiation, like X-rays or gamma rays only moreso, so it would certainly have a similar effect on DNA, leading to mutations with exposure.

[Wayning_Star]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

or tixic chemicals like benzen,

when the body tries to metabolise it using cytochrom p450, a very reactive intermediate is build, that adds to dna.

the result is cancer.

That too, but that's an external factor, it's not directly tied to evolution or normal biological processes. Mutageneic substances, as unhealthy as they are environmental...

Like sunlight, even if yet again, some people are more suceptible to those external factors than others due to their genetic setup. Risk factors add up.

Kind of hints at a regulatory aspect to evolution, either it makes you stronger or weakens the system, gene dependent. Either way time and pressure exerts change.

One old gal that I read of said that its possible and even as much as probably that cosmic particles can impact cells altering their structure long enough, if they're having a propencity, and that can result in cell damage/cancer.

I cannot remember her name, but she was in her late 80's and a geneticist of high stature,bio engineer and others. She was one of those genus folks, as later she got into astro physics as a hobby...sheesh, enough is enough..lol
anyway that's why I remembered her.

liver cancer caued by benzen will not make you harder .. it will lead to a slow and painfull death.

I wasn't talking about curing cancer, just why evolution apparently causes for it through gene deficiency. Apparently genes and evolution are linked? Aren't they?

[Subject M]

shodiswe wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

The root of the problem with the catalyst scene is the fact that Shepard just accepts and surrenders to the Catalyst's logic and demands, a problem that still remains in the EC. The Catalyst wanted a new solution, and Shepard as the hero should have given him one, one that is not based on these insane choices.

So pretend your Shepard, and the Catalyst has just gotten done talking to you.  What would you do?  What "new solution" is there other than the ones the Crucible facilitates?  I'm not being sarcastic, I'd genuinely be interested to know.

I was thinking a compromise would be met. If you managed to create peace on Rannoch, Shepard convinces the Catalyst and the Reapers just to leave, nothing more. Organics have already proven we can resist against a superior force and build the crucible, so if there ever will be some sort of major AI uprising threatning us. We will just build a new crucible, pop that sucker in the Citadel and blow the synthethics sky-high.

Unfortunately the peace on Rannoch doesn't prove anything.  It proves that organics and synthetics can cooperate.  It doesn't disprove the Catalyst's maintained view that eventual genocide is inevitable.  The Catalyst's response would be: "Just because they are cooperating today, doesn't mean that they'll cooperate tomorrow."

And you'd have to get the Crucible to the Citadel before they blow it up.  That's hard to do, so it's hard to threaten them with that.

The catalyst is quite content with destroy, after all he accepts it despite warning that the chaos will come back.  So the second part seems irrelevant.

As mentioned by post before, the catalyst is operating on faulty logic by using absoluts, Shepard could point out this fallacy and have the catalyst consider other options.

The problem might be that the catalyst is as arrogant as it creators and belives it's the messiah of it's particular function... It thinks it holds all the answers. You likely wont be able to argue a point with it, even if you can learn more about what drives it.
If they had known more aobut the catalysts motives earlier, then it might have been possible to enforce more changes and options. But at that moment where Shepard is standing there, bleeding to death and reapers destroyign the galactic fleet... It's too late to manipulate the situation.
The catalyst might have been interested in other options if certain options have been blocked and others provided(that it could accept).

yeah, well,  the problem is that the catalyst is referring to something that is not established enough within the narrative.

"-No, all Turians and Quarians must die because sooner or later dextros create AIs that will destroy the universe unless someone manages to stop kill them of first!"

[Wayning_Star]

RedBeardJim wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

or tixic chemicals like benzen,

when the body tries to metabolise it using cytochrom p450, a very reactive intermediate is build, that adds to dna.

the result is cancer.

That too, but that's an external factor, it's not directly tied to evolution or normal biological processes. Mutageneic substances, as unhealthy as they are environmental...

Like sunlight, even if yet again, some people are more suceptible to those external factors than others due to their genetic setup. Risk factors add up.

Kind of hints at a regulatory aspect to evolution, either it makes you stronger or weakens the system, gene dependent. Either way time and pressure exerts change.

One old gal that I read of said that its possible and even as much as probably that cosmic particles can impact cells altering their structure long enough, if they're having a propencity, and that can result in cell damage/cancer.

I cannot remember her name, but she was in her late 80's and a geneticist of high stature,bio engineer and others. She was one of those genus folks, as later she got into astro physics as a hobby...sheesh, enough is enough..lol
anyway that's why I remembered her.

Evolution is just change. Some change may make you more likely to survive and/or reproduce, and will over time become more common in the population. Some change may have the opposite effect, with the opposite result. And some change is just change, variation. And it's all dependent on the environmental context -- something that's a huge advantage under certain conditions may be useless or even harmful under other conditions.

What are "cosmic particles", exactly? Not a term I'm familiar with. Cosmic *radiation* is just a high-energy type of EM radiation, like X-rays or gamma rays only moreso, so it would certainly have a similar effect on DNA, leading to mutations with exposure.

from what I can remember, she said they were miniscule particles we're bombarded with every day. I'd look it up but I have to take off..

edit: here you go, laters

http://www.google.co...14.html;800;600

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 22 février 2013 - 02:59 .