582 réponses à ce sujet

[Dr_Extrem]

the ai is not shackled .. it had free reign in its developement. it was not programmed to harvest the leviathans - it did that, because it came to the conclusion it is the best thing to do. shackles would have stopped it from killing its creators.

your head-canon has reached weapons grade.

[steinvegard]

dreman9999 wrote...

steinvegard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

steinvegard wrote...

Reorte wrote...

steinvegard wrote...

Legbiter wrote...

One of the better troll jobs I've seen on the forum.

Well done OP.

No, I just can`t be in front of my computer all the time. My concern is honest. 

The "diversity must lead to conflict even if it is peaceful now" is not something you should let something you have presented as a superintelligence, rogue or not, say if you dont think the idea has merit. It is established in the story that the reapers have a intelligence far beyond anyone elses, and this is the thing controlling them again. It probably is just bad storytelling, but Bioware should be more careful about who gets to represent what ideology.

I don't know about that, there's no reason why something can't be very intelligent and still an ****. However the Reapers never actually act very intelligent at all so this isn't really an issue. They're big, powerful, and quite stupid, and that goes for the Catalyst too. Even if they're supposed to be clever they're not; a writer who writes a character like an idiot has created a character who's an idiot even if they say that they're clever.

I agree that the reapers never actually show their massive intelligence in the story, but the writing insist it is there. Legion experiences their intelligence and says it is far beyond his comprehension. Yet when their master appear, he starts spouting the same gibberish I am used to hearing from quasi-intellectual nationalists. 

I agree that they are not in reality clever, but the writers insist they are. So what does it say about the ideology of the writers when this is the ideology  of the, according to tthe story,  smartest beings in their universe?

Again. I would not usually apply this level of analysis to a game, but the endings seemed desperate to be taken seriously so I am taking them up on it.

The citadel trap is not clever?

Ok, it is, but one swallow does not make a summer:P

And using the collectors to collect info, dna, tech info and etc for years from this cycle is not clever ether?

Not particularly. Seems more like common sense to me if you have the resources.

[steinvegard]

dreman9999 wrote...

steinvegard wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

steinvegard wrote...

Reorte wrote...

steinvegard wrote...

Legbiter wrote...

One of the better troll jobs I've seen on the forum.

Well done OP.

No, I just can`t be in front of my computer all the time. My concern is honest. 

The "diversity must lead to conflict even if it is peaceful now" is not something you should let something you have presented as a superintelligence, rogue or not, say if you dont think the idea has merit. It is established in the story that the reapers have a intelligence far beyond anyone elses, and this is the thing controlling them again. It probably is just bad storytelling, but Bioware should be more careful about who gets to represent what ideology.

I don't know about that, there's no reason why something can't be very intelligent and still an ****. However the Reapers never actually act very intelligent at all so this isn't really an issue. They're big, powerful, and quite stupid, and that goes for the Catalyst too. Even if they're supposed to be clever they're not; a writer who writes a character like an idiot has created a character who's an idiot even if they say that they're clever.

I agree that the reapers never actually show their massive intelligence in the story, but the writing insist it is there. Legion experiences their intelligence and says it is far beyond his comprehension. Yet when their master appear, he starts spouting the same gibberish I am used to hearing from quasi-intellectual nationalists. 

I agree that they are not in reality clever, but the writers insist they are. So what does it say about the ideology of the writers when this is the ideology  of the, according to tthe story,  smartest beings in their universe?

Again. I would not usually apply this level of analysis to a game, but the endings seemed desperate to be taken seriously so I am taking them up on it.

The citadel trap is not clever?

funny tho how nationalism is noticed with the catalyst, their machine mind, but not with the entire MEU where militaisim rules there. Heck, Javik has his own fan club..a friggen despotic usurper..lolz

I noticed it, but all these are not superbeings with access to millennia of emperical data. Intelligent characters that end up with bad ideologies because of their experiences and their emotional reactions to them is one thing and often very interesting. 

However, when you have a god-like emotionless being say diversity must be destroyed because its objective analysis of reality says conflict is unavoidable, then you have to wonder about the writers ideology.

Note said god-like emotiomless beingis just a shackled ai doing what it's programed to do. It did not even come up with this concept on it's own. It's just regurgatating it'screatorsbad programing.

It's already at fault from the start.

But if that is the case, we are still left with the reapers themselves superintelligence. Why do they continue to do what it wants if it is really clueless? Do they just enjoy turning organics to paste that much that they dont really care if there is a point to it or not?

[Wayning_Star]

steinvegard wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

steinvegard wrote...

Reorte wrote...

steinvegard wrote...

Legbiter wrote...

One of the better troll jobs I've seen on the forum.

Well done OP.

No, I just can`t be in front of my computer all the time. My concern is honest. 

The "diversity must lead to conflict even if it is peaceful now" is not something you should let something you have presented as a superintelligence, rogue or not, say if you dont think the idea has merit. It is established in the story that the reapers have a intelligence far beyond anyone elses, and this is the thing controlling them again. It probably is just bad storytelling, but Bioware should be more careful about who gets to represent what ideology.

I don't know about that, there's no reason why something can't be very intelligent and still an ****. However the Reapers never actually act very intelligent at all so this isn't really an issue. They're big, powerful, and quite stupid, and that goes for the Catalyst too. Even if they're supposed to be clever they're not; a writer who writes a character like an idiot has created a character who's an idiot even if they say that they're clever.

I agree that the reapers never actually show their massive intelligence in the story, but the writing insist it is there. Legion experiences their intelligence and says it is far beyond his comprehension. Yet when their master appear, he starts spouting the same gibberish I am used to hearing from quasi-intellectual nationalists. 

I agree that they are not in reality clever, but the writers insist they are. So what does it say about the ideology of the writers when this is the ideology  of the, according to tthe story,  smartest beings in their universe?

Again. I would not usually apply this level of analysis to a game, but the endings seemed desperate to be taken seriously so I am taking them up on it.

The citadel trap is not clever?

funny tho how nationalism is noticed with the catalyst, their machine mind, but not with the entire MEU where militaisim rules there. Heck, Javik has his own fan club..a friggen despotic usurper..lolz

I noticed it, but all these are not superbeings with access to millennia of emperical data. Intelligent characters that end up with bad ideologies because of their experiences and their emotional reactions to them is one thing and often very interesting. 

However, when you have a god-like emotionless being say diversity must be destroyed because its objective analysis of reality says conflict is unavoidable, then you have to wonder about the writers ideology.

well, we have to admit, synthesis isn't a walk in the park..lots of data to understand the minute of evolution as organics then synthetics 'evolve'.

You seem to of missed the memo that the catalyst DOES NOT DECIDE, nor engineer the crucible nor author the choices menu or anything. Once the crucible is in place the catalyst is no longer 'god like', as if it ever was. That is word association,not game/story facts.

Given the scope and width of the problem, maybe we should look at who is ultimately responsible for the catalyst problem in the first place. The Leviathan, who by the way, really LIKE the god moniker. They're organic and their society is based on their worship. The catalyst does NOT require thralls to donate to its cause. It merely and quite simplically harvests and stores them for later reference. In it reality, its not even 'killing' them. In a way, it actually promotes diversity, in that regard. Kind of like Noah, only different.

The catalyst only reflects on its observations, if its, as you say, emotionless, there is no other way it could regard what it witnesses over the millenia. Ultimately stuck in its 'Leviathan' programmed function. Its not a friend, but it's not the enemy either.

Take all organic beings enmass in the MEU, pretty much god like if you get them on your case. Ask any destroy chooser, they'll tell you just how 'bad' they are. Ever notice how the destroy choice is the veterans favorite, saving Shep as a bonus achievment. Its all in the game.

[dreman9999]

steinvegard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

steinvegard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

steinvegard wrote...

Reorte wrote...

steinvegard wrote...

Legbiter wrote...

One of the better troll jobs I've seen on the forum.

Well done OP.

No, I just can`t be in front of my computer all the time. My concern is honest. 

The "diversity must lead to conflict even if it is peaceful now" is not something you should let something you have presented as a superintelligence, rogue or not, say if you dont think the idea has merit. It is established in the story that the reapers have a intelligence far beyond anyone elses, and this is the thing controlling them again. It probably is just bad storytelling, but Bioware should be more careful about who gets to represent what ideology.

I don't know about that, there's no reason why something can't be very intelligent and still an ****. However the Reapers never actually act very intelligent at all so this isn't really an issue. They're big, powerful, and quite stupid, and that goes for the Catalyst too. Even if they're supposed to be clever they're not; a writer who writes a character like an idiot has created a character who's an idiot even if they say that they're clever.

I agree that the reapers never actually show their massive intelligence in the story, but the writing insist it is there. Legion experiences their intelligence and says it is far beyond his comprehension. Yet when their master appear, he starts spouting the same gibberish I am used to hearing from quasi-intellectual nationalists. 

I agree that they are not in reality clever, but the writers insist they are. So what does it say about the ideology of the writers when this is the ideology  of the, according to tthe story,  smartest beings in their universe?

Again. I would not usually apply this level of analysis to a game, but the endings seemed desperate to be taken seriously so I am taking them up on it.

The citadel trap is not clever?

Ok, it is, but one swallow does not make a summer:P

And using the collectors to collect info, dna, tech info and etc for years from this cycle is not clever ether?

Not particularly. Seems more like common sense to me if you have the resources.

They wereable to do it in a way that no one suspected then for decades. And even if people wanted to check they made it impossible....
That is not clever?

[darkmikasonfire]

I don't see it as specifically Bioware's message, if you look at any movie that has humans and robots that fight it out, that's just the theme, it's kind of the theme of all war movies even.

Peace doesn't last period. Look at our history and you'll see that, why would it be any different for robotics that are sintient.
If we can't get along with our own kind properly, how can anyone expect us to get along with something that we created to be even slightly like us?

[FlamingBoy]

so in short, bioware are racists, well that a fun way of looking at the company

a creative look op

[dreman9999]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

the ai is not shackled .. it had free reign in its developement. it was not programmed to harvest the leviathans - it did that, because it came to the conclusion it is the best thing to do. shackles would have stopped it from killing its creators.

your head-canon has reached weapons grade.

Not a head cannon..

Shepard: You were created?
Catalyst: Yes
Shepard:By who?
Catalyst:By ones who reconiced the problem.(Organic vs synthetic..)




Leviathan: The intelligence was envisioned as another tool
Shepard:And now we all pay the price of you mistake
Leviathan: There was no mistake. It still serves it's perpose

And on it's programing aka perpose...



Leviathan:  To counter this problem we creater an intelligence with the mandate to perserve life at any cost.

TO PERSERVE LIFE AT ANY COST....Which is what it is doing.

The catalyst itself even states it's only doing what itwas told to do by the leviathens.

[dreman9999]

steinvegard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

steinvegard wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

steinvegard wrote...

Reorte wrote...

steinvegard wrote...

Legbiter wrote...

One of the better troll jobs I've seen on the forum.

Well done OP.

No, I just can`t be in front of my computer all the time. My concern is honest. 

The "diversity must lead to conflict even if it is peaceful now" is not something you should let something you have presented as a superintelligence, rogue or not, say if you dont think the idea has merit. It is established in the story that the reapers have a intelligence far beyond anyone elses, and this is the thing controlling them again. It probably is just bad storytelling, but Bioware should be more careful about who gets to represent what ideology.

I don't know about that, there's no reason why something can't be very intelligent and still an ****. However the Reapers never actually act very intelligent at all so this isn't really an issue. They're big, powerful, and quite stupid, and that goes for the Catalyst too. Even if they're supposed to be clever they're not; a writer who writes a character like an idiot has created a character who's an idiot even if they say that they're clever.

I agree that the reapers never actually show their massive intelligence in the story, but the writing insist it is there. Legion experiences their intelligence and says it is far beyond his comprehension. Yet when their master appear, he starts spouting the same gibberish I am used to hearing from quasi-intellectual nationalists. 

I agree that they are not in reality clever, but the writers insist they are. So what does it say about the ideology of the writers when this is the ideology  of the, according to tthe story,  smartest beings in their universe?

Again. I would not usually apply this level of analysis to a game, but the endings seemed desperate to be taken seriously so I am taking them up on it.

The citadel trap is not clever?

funny tho how nationalism is noticed with the catalyst, their machine mind, but not with the entire MEU where militaisim rules there. Heck, Javik has his own fan club..a friggen despotic usurper..lolz

I noticed it, but all these are not superbeings with access to millennia of emperical data. Intelligent characters that end up with bad ideologies because of their experiences and their emotional reactions to them is one thing and often very interesting. 

However, when you have a god-like emotionless being say diversity must be destroyed because its objective analysis of reality says conflict is unavoidable, then you have to wonder about the writers ideology.

Note said god-like emotiomless beingis just a shackled ai doing what it's programed to do. It did not even come up with this concept on it's own. It's just regurgatating it'screatorsbad programing.

It's already at fault from the start.

But if that is the case, we are still left with the reapers themselves superintelligence. Why do they continue to do what it wants if it is really clueless? Do they just enjoy turning organics to paste that much that they dont really care if there is a point to it or not?

The reapers are also shacked by the catalyst. They do what the catalyst programs them to do. That's fault on top of fault.

They have no emotion, they are just doing what they are programed to do. What they aredoing is perserving life but in the most exteme way.

Op, you missing the fact here your taking with a faulty machine that can't stop. The entirty of it's system to the very reapers is running on faulty logic.

Modifié par dreman9999, 21 février 2013 - 10:17 .

[Dr_Extrem]

dreman9999 wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

the ai is not shackled .. it had free reign in its developement. it was not programmed to harvest the leviathans - it did that, because it came to the conclusion it is the best thing to do. shackles would have stopped it from killing its creators.

your head-canon has reached weapons grade.

Not a head cannon..

Shepard: You were created?
Catalyst: Yes
Shepard:By who?
Catalyst:By ones who reconiced the problem.(Organic vs synthetic..)




Leviathan: The intelligence was envisioned as another tool
Shepard:And now we all pay the price of you mistake
Leviathan: There was no mistake. It still serves it's perpose

And on it's programing aka perpose...



Leviathan:  To counter this problem we creater an intelligence with the mandate to perserve life at any cost.

TO PERSERVE LIFE AT ANY COST....Which is what it is doing.

The catalyst itself even states it's only doing what itwas told to do by the leviathens.

following your agenda does not make you shackled - only obedient.

it is your assumption that the ai is shackled but its ability to adapt, proves you wrong.

[dreman9999]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

the ai is not shackled .. it had free reign in its developement. it was not programmed to harvest the leviathans - it did that, because it came to the conclusion it is the best thing to do. shackles would have stopped it from killing its creators.

your head-canon has reached weapons grade.

Not a head cannon..

Shepard: You were created?
Catalyst: Yes
Shepard:By who?
Catalyst:By ones who reconiced the problem.(Organic vs synthetic..)




Leviathan: The intelligence was envisioned as another tool
Shepard:And now we all pay the price of you mistake
Leviathan: There was no mistake. It still serves it's perpose

And on it's programing aka perpose...



Leviathan:  To counter this problem we creater an intelligence with the mandate to perserve life at any cost.

TO PERSERVE LIFE AT ANY COST....Which is what it is doing.

The catalyst itself even states it's only doing what itwas told to do by the leviathens.

following your agenda does not make you shackled - only obedient.

it is your assumption that the ai is shackled but its ability to adapt, proves you wrong.

For a machine.Yes it does. Not once did the catalyst devert or change what it was doing. Everything it did , by it and it's creators words, it did because of it programing.

If it walks, talk, and looks like aduck....It's a duck.
  And it's not able to adpt. If it could it would trigger the crusible on it's own.

Modifié par dreman9999, 21 février 2013 - 10:20 .

[AlexMBrennan]

Diversity just doesn`t work over time. The only way to avoid conflict is either to destroy those who are different or to make everyone the same.

Well, not really - arguably, this is the opposite of the intended message since that dialogue is delivered by the arch villain who the writers went out of their way to make look stupid.

[Wayning_Star]

Yeah, the Levi aren't much on diversity..unless it's their own..

Edit: atypical organic apex race...

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 21 février 2013 - 10:36 .

[TheRealJayDee]

Do NOT discuss the "shackled AI" thing with dreman.

[Dr_Extrem]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Do NOT discuss the "shackled AI" thing with dreman.

sure .. there is nothing to discuss - the ai is not shackled

[LinksOcarina]

steinvegard wrote...

mackan__s wrote...

So you dont like that they show us the real world..?

No, as a historian, I have to say that Biowares paranoia about differencens in thinking leading to unavoidable(It can, but usually doesn`t) conflict have no empircal evidence backing it in the real world. That is just cynisim.The lazy persons philosophy.

Also a historian here, but considering that differences often become a catayst to conflict is commonplace, doesn't that follow the cyclical logic that some historians postulated over the centuries.

Take Arnold Toynbee for example, his entire meta-history is about how certain paradigms are completey unaviodable because it is a cyclical nature. Others such as Oswald Spengler have proposed such theories to vary degrees of certainty, and most historians today deal with a more contextual approach through numerous fields to uncover theories now. We see this in Mass Effect 3 in a literal sense until the paradigm is broken, and Shepard using a more unconventional approach in attempting to unite the races for a common cause. 

We also see the exact opposite of this, as you say, usually not leading to this conclusion. In-game as well, the fact that you can unite the races in a large-scale conflict against a singular threat is somewhat against this theory; the Geth/Quarian arc is exemplory of this to a large degree. If you unite the two together this goes against the entire anti-diversity message. 

As for the reapers, well the question then is are they alive, or a function? The catalyst sees them as a function, we may see them as alive, so it may depend on the personal philosophy of the player moreso than the choices given, which in turn is a whole other philosophical conundrum. But the issue really lies in not with the finality of the situation, but changing the fate of the situation, which is what the ending actually promotes. You break the cycle one way, or another. The question then becomes do you break it for all time, or do you break it on the short term, depending on how you read into things. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 21 février 2013 - 10:45 .

[dreman9999]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Do NOT discuss the "shackled AI" thing with dreman.

Prove to me it's not true. We literaly have the catalyst even saying he is doing what he is programed to do. Even it's creators.

[dreman9999]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Do NOT discuss the "shackled AI" thing with dreman.

sure .. there is nothing to discuss - the ai is not shackled

You have yet to give an arguement to how it's not shackled.

Modifié par dreman9999, 21 février 2013 - 10:43 .

[Dr_Extrem]

dreman9999 wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Do NOT discuss the "shackled AI" thing with dreman.

sure .. there is nothing to discuss - the ai is not shackled

You have yet to give an arguement to how it's not shackled.

it can adapt its programming? you have not given any fact, that it actually IS shackled.

you are making an assumption. it is your job to prove it - not mine to debunk it.

[mvaning]

steinvegard wrote...

 I`m sorry if this has been covered before, but I only recently played and finished the game(What I heard from people about the ending, made me wait until I had both a lot of spare time and absolutly nothing else of interest to play)

I was most surprised by the politial messaging in the endings: Diversity just doesn`t work over time. The only way to avoid conflict is either to destroy those who are different or to make everyone the same.

Yes, I actually made a comment about this after my first play through.  It was kind of disgusting to me.   Although you have said it in better words than I.

[dreman9999]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Do NOT discuss the "shackled AI" thing with dreman.

sure .. there is nothing to discuss - the ai is not shackled

You have yet to give an arguement to how it's not shackled.

it can adapt its programming? you have not given any fact, that it actually IS shackled.

you are making an assumption. it is your job to prove it - not mine to debunk it.

I have given my point. Directlyfrom theprogramers themsselves.

You're not getting that it's is programed to perseve life.. Every action it does perseves life. What is not limited is how. Itis free to choose any way to do so. That mean as far as simply save a races dna and letting the race die off.
That is not even new to scifi.

Point to me one time that it did not perserve life....And remember, it can choose any way to do so. That does not mean keep a live.

Modifié par dreman9999, 21 février 2013 - 10:51 .

[Dr_Extrem]

dreman9999 wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Do NOT discuss the "shackled AI" thing with dreman.

sure .. there is nothing to discuss - the ai is not shackled

You have yet to give an arguement to how it's not shackled.

it can adapt its programming? you have not given any fact, that it actually IS shackled.

you are making an assumption. it is your job to prove it - not mine to debunk it.

I have given my point. Directlyfrom theprogramers themsselves.

You're not getting that it's is programed to perseve life.. Every action it does perseves life. What is not limited is how. Itis free to choose any way to do so. That mean as far as simply save a races dna and letting the race die off.
That is not even new to scifi.

Point to me one time that it did not perserve life....And remeber, it can choose any way to do so.

nope .. they only stated, that they created an ai. you are building a wild theory around it - thats all.

it is an obedient ai - it follows its job, because it found a solution, by itself.

it is not shackled.


find a real, solid proof.


you cant prove an assumption, with an assumption.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 21 février 2013 - 10:53 .

[CronoDragoon]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

it can adapt its programming? you have not given any fact, that it actually IS shackled.

you are making an assumption. it is your job to prove it - not mine to debunk it.

Except it didn't "adapt" its programming. The Leviathans tell you straight out that "there was no mistake" and that the Catalyst still "fulfills its function".

[dreman9999]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Do NOT discuss the "shackled AI" thing with dreman.

sure .. there is nothing to discuss - the ai is not shackled

You have yet to give an arguement to how it's not shackled.

it can adapt its programming? you have not given any fact, that it actually IS shackled.

you are making an assumption. it is your job to prove it - not mine to debunk it.

I have given my point. Directlyfrom theprogramers themsselves.

You're not getting that it's is programed to perseve life.. Every action it does perseves life. What is not limited is how. Itis free to choose any way to do so. That mean as far as simply save a races dna and letting the race die off.
That is not even new to scifi.

Point to me one time that it did not perserve life....And remeber, it can choose any way to do so.

nope .. they only stated, that they created an ai. you are building a wild theory around it - thats all.

it is an obedient ai - it follows its job, because it found a solution, by itself.

it is not shackled.


find a real, solid proof.


you cant prove an assumption, with an assumption.

Leviathan:  To counter this problem we creater an intelligence with the mandate to perserve life at any cost.

man·datehttp://www.thefreedictionary.com/mandate
1. An authoritative command or instruction.
2. A command or an authorization given by a political electorate to its representative.
3.a. A commission from the League of Nations authorizing a member nation to administer a territory.b. A region under such administration.
4. Lawa. An order issued by a superior court or an official to a lower court.b. A contract by which one party agrees to perform services for another without payment.tr.v. 
man·dat·ed, man·dat·ing, man·dates1. To assign (a colony or territory) to a specified nation under a mandate.2. To make mandatory, as by law; decree or require.........

That line alone means they programed it to have to perserve life.
It's not an assumtion. That is the very word of the creators.

Modifié par dreman9999, 21 février 2013 - 10:57 .

[Hexley UK]

mackan__s wrote...

So you dont like that they show us the real world..?

If i wanted real world i'd go outside and not pay £60 for this travesty.