582 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

Hexley UK wrote...

mackan__s wrote...

So you dont like that they show us the real world..?

If i wanted real world i'd go outside and not pay £60 for this travesty.

Take the time to think what the question is being ask here. What is going on here is no different then the hertic mission in ME2. In that mission the choice on had was to destroy the heritic indivisualium or kill them.

The question in the end of ME3 is no different.

Is indivisualisum so important that you would let everyone die so they can keep it or is the perservation of order and life so important that when the time deems it nessiary indivisualisum must be violated?

That is not a bad question. Countries in the times of war do this all the time.

[Mixon]

interesting point, I would need think deeper next time of Shep's story.

[Dr_Extrem]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

it can adapt its programming? you have not given any fact, that it actually IS shackled.

you are making an assumption. it is your job to prove it - not mine to debunk it.

Except it didn't "adapt" its programming. The Leviathans tell you straight out that "there was no mistake" and that the Catalyst still "fulfills its function".

the mandate was not a mistake. thats all. the ai was given a job and free reign in its execution. the ai ended up killing its creators, because it saw them as a part of the problem.

just because it follows its mandate, it is not necessarily shackled. its an ai that acts without pity or remorse, because those concepts were not implemented on its creation. it has no moral stance - only a mandate and free reign to execute it. morals or said concepts would interfere with its mandate and it has no reason to learn those concepts.

this has nothing to do with shackles. there is no solid proof in the game, that the ai is shackled.

[Dr_Extrem]

Hexley UK wrote...

mackan__s wrote...

So you dont like that they show us the real world..?

If i wanted real world i'd go outside and not pay £60 for this travesty.

its a grotesque ..

[dreman9999]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

it can adapt its programming? you have not given any fact, that it actually IS shackled.

you are making an assumption. it is your job to prove it - not mine to debunk it.

Except it didn't "adapt" its programming. The Leviathans tell you straight out that "there was no mistake" and that the Catalyst still "fulfills its function".

the mandate was not a mistake. thats all. the ai was given a job and free reign in its execution. the ai ended up killing its creators, because it saw them as a part of the problem.

just because it follows its mandate, it is not necessarily shackled. its an ai that acts without pity or remorse, because those concepts were not implemented on its creation. it has no moral stance - only a mandate and free reign to execute it. morals or said concepts would interfere with its mandate and it has no reason to learn those concepts.

this has nothing to do with shackles. there is no solid proof in the game, that the ai is shackled.

Let me explian what you are not getting. Lets say you have a spell on you that makes you go to a spacific location in the world that is in afar of place. If you not making strives to go to that location you get intense pain and passout over time and when passed out make said action to get to this location on your own. You are allowed to pick any way and formof transpertation to get to that location but you have to do what you can to do so. Anything from getting ajob to pay for the trip to unfavoral things.

Do you have free will?
And for the last time, the programers themselves says he is shackled.

Modifié par dreman9999, 21 février 2013 - 11:10 .

[Xamufam]

The brat isnt an AI he says it himself, he is the Collective intellegence of the reapers, which imeans he is the reapers. (beyond an AI)

& that means the citadel is a reaper

[dreman9999]

Troxa wrote...

The brat isnt an AI he says it himself, he is the Collective intellegence of the reapers, which imeans he is the reapers. (beyond an AI)

& that means the citadel is a reaper

He's an AI. He says he is an AI  likE Shepard is an animal...Which Shepard is. Saying he is the Collective intellegence of the reapers just means he is an extremely powerful AI.
And trhe citadel is not a reaper.

Modifié par dreman9999, 21 février 2013 - 11:14 .

[Dr_Extrem]

dreman9999 wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

it can adapt its programming? you have not given any fact, that it actually IS shackled.

you are making an assumption. it is your job to prove it - not mine to debunk it.

Except it didn't "adapt" its programming. The Leviathans tell you straight out that "there was no mistake" and that the Catalyst still "fulfills its function".

the mandate was not a mistake. thats all. the ai was given a job and free reign in its execution. the ai ended up killing its creators, because it saw them as a part of the problem.

just because it follows its mandate, it is not necessarily shackled. its an ai that acts without pity or remorse, because those concepts were not implemented on its creation. it has no moral stance - only a mandate and free reign to execute it. morals or said concepts would interfere with its mandate and it has no reason to learn those concepts.

this has nothing to do with shackles. there is no solid proof in the game, that the ai is shackled.

Let me explian what you are not getting. Lets say you have a spell on you that makes you go to a spacific location in the world that is in afar of place. If you not making strives to go to that location you get intense pain and passout over time and when passed out make said action to get to this location on your own. You are allowed to pick any way and formof transpertation to get to that location but you have to do what you can to do so. Anything from getting ajob to pay for the trip to unfavoral things.

Do you have free will?
And for the last time, the programers themselves says he is shackled.

your analogy is ... weird and does not provide any context. without free will, i would not be able to cast the spell in the first place.


no .. the creators said, that they gave it a mandate - that is something different.

the ai is actively searching for alternatives - it does experiments on synthesis ect. it decided by itself, that the leviathans are part of the problem. it has the free will to decide, what has to be done.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 21 février 2013 - 11:16 .

[CronoDragoon]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

the mandate was not a mistake. thats all. the ai was given a job and free reign in its execution. the ai ended up killing its creators, because it saw them as a part of the problem.

just because it follows its mandate, it is not necessarily shackled. its an ai that acts without pity or remorse, because those concepts were not implemented on its creation. it has no moral stance - only a mandate and free reign to execute it. morals or said concepts would interfere with its mandate and it has no reason to learn those concepts.

this has nothing to do with shackles. there is no solid proof in the game, that the ai is shackled.

But considering the Intelligence acts at all times the exact same as a shackled AI would - such as following its directive at ALL costs - then the onus is on you to provide evidence of behavior that would indicate it is unshackled.

[Dr_Extrem]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

the mandate was not a mistake. thats all. the ai was given a job and free reign in its execution. the ai ended up killing its creators, because it saw them as a part of the problem.

just because it follows its mandate, it is not necessarily shackled. its an ai that acts without pity or remorse, because those concepts were not implemented on its creation. it has no moral stance - only a mandate and free reign to execute it. morals or said concepts would interfere with its mandate and it has no reason to learn those concepts.

this has nothing to do with shackles. there is no solid proof in the game, that the ai is shackled.

But considering the Intelligence acts at all times the exact same as a shackled AI would - such as following its directive at ALL costs - then the onus is on you to provide evidence of behavior that would indicate it is unshackled.

what else should the ai do? play poker? it only has one reason to exist at all. this has nothing to do with being shackled - just not interested in other things.

[dreman9999]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

it can adapt its programming? you have not given any fact, that it actually IS shackled.

you are making an assumption. it is your job to prove it - not mine to debunk it.

Except it didn't "adapt" its programming. The Leviathans tell you straight out that "there was no mistake" and that the Catalyst still "fulfills its function".

the mandate was not a mistake. thats all. the ai was given a job and free reign in its execution. the ai ended up killing its creators, because it saw them as a part of the problem.

just because it follows its mandate, it is not necessarily shackled. its an ai that acts without pity or remorse, because those concepts were not implemented on its creation. it has no moral stance - only a mandate and free reign to execute it. morals or said concepts would interfere with its mandate and it has no reason to learn those concepts.

this has nothing to do with shackles. there is no solid proof in the game, that the ai is shackled.

Let me explian what you are not getting. Lets say you have a spell on you that makes you go to a spacific location in the world that is in afar of place. If you not making strives to go to that location you get intense pain and passout over time and when passed out make said action to get to this location on your own. You are allowed to pick any way and formof transpertation to get to that location but you have to do what you can to do so. Anything from getting ajob to pay for the trip to unfavoral things.

Do you have free will?
And for the last time, the programers themselves says he is shackled.

your analogy is ... weird and does not provide any context. without free will, i would not be able to cast the spell in the first place.


no .. the creators said, that they gave it a mandate - that is something different.

the ai is actively searching for alternatives - it does experiments on synthesis ect. it decided by itself, that the leviathans are part of the problem. it has the free will to decide, what has to be done.

1. Inever said you castthe spell. You know where itisall the time you just have to get there.
2.Yourstill not getting the point. This is what Saren and tim had to go throught with there indoctrination.

3.[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">Leviathan: ]mandate[/color] to perserve life at any cost.

man·datehttp://www.thefreedictionary.com/mandate
[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">1. ]An authoritative command or instruction.[/color]
[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">2. ]A command or an authorization given by a political electorate to its representative.[/color]
[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">3.a. ]A commission from the League of Nations authorizing a member nation to administer a territory.[/color][color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">b. ]A region under such administration.[/color]
[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">4. ]Law[/color][color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">a. ]An order issued by a superior court or an official to a lower court.[/color][color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">b. ]A contract by which one party agrees to perform services for another without payment.[/color]tr.v. 
[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">man·dat·ed, ]man·dat·ing[/color][color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">, ]man·dates[/color][color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">1. ]To assign (a colony or territory) to a specified nation under a mandate.[/color][color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">2. ]To make mandatory, as by law; decree or require.........[/color]

That line alone means they programed it to have to perserve life.
It's not an assumtion. That is the very word of the creators.

4. You have yet to say howit show it has free will. Even it's creator state it still doing it programing. It has not do anything else.
5, Your not understand what "at any cost" Means. If it think the leviathens are part of the problem then it ok to do so because it's allowedto do anything at any cost to solve the problem it is given.

Modifié par dreman9999, 21 février 2013 - 11:23 .

[Dr_Extrem]

but i have to cast the spell before it has an effect at all - no cast, no spell.

mandate is only a fancy word for job ans just because it does its job it is shackled?

edi does her job despite being unshackled. this is not a proof - its an assumption on your side.

[Bill Casey]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

the mandate was not a mistake. thats all. the ai was given a job and free reign in its execution. the ai ended up killing its creators, because it saw them as a part of the problem.

just because it follows its mandate, it is not necessarily shackled. its an ai that acts without pity or remorse, because those concepts were not implemented on its creation. it has no moral stance - only a mandate and free reign to execute it. morals or said concepts would interfere with its mandate and it has no reason to learn those concepts.

this has nothing to do with shackles. there is no solid proof in the game, that the ai is shackled.

But considering the Intelligence acts at all times the exact same as a shackled AI would - such as following its directive at ALL costs - then the onus is on you to provide evidence of behavior that would indicate it is unshackled.

It killed its creators...

[dreman9999]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

the mandate was not a mistake. thats all. the ai was given a job and free reign in its execution. the ai ended up killing its creators, because it saw them as a part of the problem.

just because it follows its mandate, it is not necessarily shackled. its an ai that acts without pity or remorse, because those concepts were not implemented on its creation. it has no moral stance - only a mandate and free reign to execute it. morals or said concepts would interfere with its mandate and it has no reason to learn those concepts.

this has nothing to do with shackles. there is no solid proof in the game, that the ai is shackled.

But considering the Intelligence acts at all times the exact same as a shackled AI would - such as following its directive at ALL costs - then the onus is on you to provide evidence of behavior that would indicate it is unshackled.

what else should the ai do? play poker? it only has one reason to exist at all. this has nothing to do with being shackled - just not interested in other things.

Look at EDI and everything she has done once she was unshakled. An unshackled ai has the freedom to do what ever they want. You think something that can do anything would just do what it's tprogramed  to do only if it can change it'sprograming? That catalyst only does what it was programed to do only.

[GimmeDaGun]

"racist"... Jesus people... come on! pfffff... these forums are falling low.

[dreman9999]

Bill Casey wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

the mandate was not a mistake. thats all. the ai was given a job and free reign in its execution. the ai ended up killing its creators, because it saw them as a part of the problem.

just because it follows its mandate, it is not necessarily shackled. its an ai that acts without pity or remorse, because those concepts were not implemented on its creation. it has no moral stance - only a mandate and free reign to execute it. morals or said concepts would interfere with its mandate and it has no reason to learn those concepts.

this has nothing to do with shackles. there is no solid proof in the game, that the ai is shackled.

But considering the Intelligence acts at all times the exact same as a shackled AI would - such as following its directive at ALL costs - then the onus is on you to provide evidence of behavior that would indicate it is unshackled.

It killed its creators...

It reperpoused it's creators and let some live.

[ZLurps]

After I played ME3 I wondered if there's really some sort of big idea there, but came to conclusion that anything can be made of it but for real, it's just incoherent mess, nothing more, nothing less.

[Bill Casey]

dreman9999 wrote...

it's allowed to do anything at any cost to solve the problem it is given.

Which means it is not shackled...

[dreman9999]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

but i have to cast the spell before it has an effect at all - no cast, no spell.

mandate is only a fancy word for job ans just because it does its job it is shackled?

edi does her job despite being unshackled. this is not a proof - its an assumption on your side.

There is noform of you casting any spell in the example I put up. Someone cast it on you.

And you got the meaning of mandate wrong...
http://www.thefreedi...ary.com/mandate
1. An authoritative command or instruction.
2. A command or an authorization given by a political electorate to its representative.
3.a. A commission from the League of Nations authorizing a member nation to administer a territory.b. A region under such administration
.4. Lawa. An order issued by a superior court or an official to a lower court.b. A contract by which one party agrees to perform services for another without payment.tr.v.
 man·dat·ed, man·dat·ing, man·dates1. To assign (a colony or territory) to a specified nation under a mandate.2. To make mandatory, as by law; decree or require:

Modifié par dreman9999, 21 février 2013 - 11:29 .

[Bill Casey]

I don't think you understand the difference between a shackle and a core function...

[TuringPoint]

To OP:

(Sten face)

No.

[dreman9999]

Bill Casey wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

it's allowed to do anything at any cost to solve the problem it is given.

Which means it is not shackled...

No. If you are force togo a job no matter what but allowed to do it in any way, that does not mean you have free will. Why? becasue you can't stop doing the job.

This is what happen to Saren and TIM.

[Dr_Extrem]

dreman9999 wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

the mandate was not a mistake. thats all. the ai was given a job and free reign in its execution. the ai ended up killing its creators, because it saw them as a part of the problem.

just because it follows its mandate, it is not necessarily shackled. its an ai that acts without pity or remorse, because those concepts were not implemented on its creation. it has no moral stance - only a mandate and free reign to execute it. morals or said concepts would interfere with its mandate and it has no reason to learn those concepts.

this has nothing to do with shackles. there is no solid proof in the game, that the ai is shackled.

But considering the Intelligence acts at all times the exact same as a shackled AI would - such as following its directive at ALL costs - then the onus is on you to provide evidence of behavior that would indicate it is unshackled.

what else should the ai do? play poker? it only has one reason to exist at all. this has nothing to do with being shackled - just not interested in other things.

Look at EDI and everything she has done once she was unshakled. An unshackled ai has the freedom to do what ever they want. You think something that can do anything would just do what it's tprogramed  to do only if it can change it'sprograming? That catalyst only does what it was programed to do only.

and the freedom not to as well.

the catalyst did experiments on life, to understand it. a shackled ai would not do it - it would be bound to do its job only ... not make it better or different - just do it.

your only foundation is the assumption, that an unshackled ai does things different. the problem is, that edi is influenced by outside stimuli - the catalyst is not. edi is still doing her jobs on the normandy - she did not quit or forgot to recycle the air.

[Dr_Extrem]

dreman9999 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

the mandate was not a mistake. thats all. the ai was given a job and free reign in its execution. the ai ended up killing its creators, because it saw them as a part of the problem.

just because it follows its mandate, it is not necessarily shackled. its an ai that acts without pity or remorse, because those concepts were not implemented on its creation. it has no moral stance - only a mandate and free reign to execute it. morals or said concepts would interfere with its mandate and it has no reason to learn those concepts.

this has nothing to do with shackles. there is no solid proof in the game, that the ai is shackled.

But considering the Intelligence acts at all times the exact same as a shackled AI would - such as following its directive at ALL costs - then the onus is on you to provide evidence of behavior that would indicate it is unshackled.

It killed its creators...

It reperpoused it's creators and let some live.

it was sloppy .. it still is. *cough* crucible plans *cough*

it just did not find every leviathan out there thats all.

[string3r]

I think it's pretty clear at this point that Bioware didn't give a crap about what "message" the ending would give. It was just poorly written and rushed.