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[Fast Jimmy]

Howdy do, BSN.

I'd like to start a conversation about the Lore of Religion.


Many great games have incoporated a religion or spiritual organizaiton into their world to give it more depth and intiruge. Whether that is the cyclically doomed Yevon relgiion from Final Fantasy X, to the brutal and stagnant Adeptus Ministorum  from the Warhammer 40K series, to the pantehon of gods that play a very real and important role in The Forgotten Realms lore in the Baldur's Gate series, the addition of a faith that may or may not be truly divinely inspired adds a lot to the story-telling aspect of a game.

The Dragon Age series is no different, with a number of different religions. To date, this stories have been revealed to have some relative credence to them, through encounters such as Corypheus being a true Tevinter magister, to the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest which demonstrated divine power at best, extremely strong magic at the least. Even the religions of the Dwarves, who are guided by The Stone, and the Elves, whose gods were lost to them not long before they were conquered, all have an interesting take on blurring the line between history and faith.

In this thread, I am going to discuss three (as that seems to be my magical number for these things) aspects of the Religious Lore in the DA universe and what it brings to the table. I am not intending to give any input on where these bits of lore should head in future installations of the series, but only evaluating them on what concepts they introduce and the value they have.

The Old Gods

So, first things first - the ancient dragons who were worshipped by the Tevinter Imperiums blood mage rulers and are now slumbering underground, waiting to be awakened and corrupted by the very Darkspawn they helped unleash through giving the secret to entering the Golden City. Pretty cool stuff, honestly. 

This piece of the lore really is the framework for the entire Andrastian faith. Which is ironic, of course, because those who participate in dragon cults are deemed heretics. 

The idea that dragons, which are very integral to the nature of the world of Thedas (as hinted at by The Silent Grove novel) were also previously worshipped to the level of treating them like deities by the ancient Tevinters sets an interesting tone. One where the sins of the past are still plaguing mankind today, a common theme in the Andrastian religion. 

By tying the Old Gods, and, by association, the Archdemons they become, to a deity or supernatural power, they become more than just big dragons, but rather true forces of nature (or forces of SUPERnature, as the case may be) which allow them to be confirmed with powers that border on the mystical without breaking the fourth wall or making any other dragons seem underpowered by comparison... after all, the Old Gods aren't dragons. They are gods in the FORM of dragons.

By telling us the story of the Old Gods fall, we are explained much about the world of Thedas and the cause of the Blights, as well as the existence and presence of the Chantry. It suceeds in being very informative while also introducing a number of interesting questions. It also gives us some warning flags that everything the Chantry says might not be on the up-and-up.

Why would the Archdemons tell the Magisters to go to the Golden City, if it would result in them becoming Archdemons? We can assume the Old Gods (or, at least, the dragons that become Arch Demons) were once above ground where they were worshipped, but why did they go underground after the darkspawn were released? Why are they now asleep and how do the darkspawn "awaken" them? These types of questions bring into doubt the truth of the Chantry, while at the same time seeming to give credence to their claim that a powerful force (maybe the Maker) is indeed punishing all involved for entering the Golden City in the first place. That makes for a very powerful and effective section of lore.

Andraste

So, in sharp contrast to the vile, menacing Archdemons and darkspawn, we have the beautiful, radiant, self-sacrificing Bride of the Maker, Andraste. Despite being the namesake of the religion, however, not a whole lot is known about her.

Born a Tevinter slace, she (allegedly) sang so beautifully, the Maker himself appeared to her and said, for lack of a better phrase, "I gotta tap dat!" And so he made her his bride, despite the fact that she was already wed to another dude. I guess that's how the Maker rolls.

Through appealing to the Maker, she was able to perform great miracles, such as causing droughts to her enemies, while blaming the Imperium for the wide destruction and death seen in the First Blight and blaming their rampant use of dark magic as the source of many woes. Use of these mircales, coupled with her ability to whip crowds into a frenzy with her words and singing and also with the use of her mortal husband Maferath's army, she conquered a large chunk of the Tevinter empire before being killed, and managed to cause its eventual collapse after her death.

There is the speculation, of course, that Andraste was a mage herself, which seems to jive with some bits of knowledge we have from her, which further makes things interesting. If the leader of the Andrastian faith, which now seeks to supress and control those with magic, was in fact a mage herself, it would certainly put a very hypocritical spin on things. On the other hand, if the Maker is real and the influence Andraste had was truly divine, it would not be the first example we've seen in the Dragon Age universe of divine beings existing and influencing the fates of mortals.

Andraste is a good character in the lore simply because it puts a face (of sorts) to the Chantry. Instead of a nameless group banding together to form (like what we see with the Grey Wardens, for example), we get a concrete character far in the past who is fantastical and mysterious. In addition, any information we find about her only seems to further the mystery. While I wouldn't like her character to remain a true enigma the entire series, having the "truth" about Andraste remaining ambiguous would do a lot in keeping the world, and all of its beliefs, open to interpretation.

The Stone

The dwarves are, at first glance, the most non-religious group in Thedas. They only worship themselves, essentially. Or, more accurately their Paragons - the best of their race, those who elevated Dwarven society to higher echelons. One can even be worshipped as a near-deity while still alive, such as the case of Branka or Caridan.

Yet, aside from this, there is the Dwarves belief in The Stone. When first brought up, it seems this is more just a dwarven intuition, their Stone Sense, which guides them in the underground and their tunneling. Yet in parts of DA:O and more in DA2, we are started to reveal a more personal reference to The Stone. Not as some talent the dwarves have to dig, but an actual being of sorts. Could there be an actual entity that the dwarves are connected to? Does it truly sing to the dwarves? If so, is it similar at all to the way the Archdemon sings to the darkspawn?

By introducing the concept of the Dwarves  own diety, of sorts, this serves as a really good way to bring them in out of the relgiious cold, so to speak. The Elven gods, the human gods and even the self-certainty of the Qunari all lend a spiritual bend to each of the races. The dwarves can aspire to the virtues of a paragon, but often this is seen in dwarven societies as scraping for more money or power for their House. Yet in the Codex entries the Cross-Cut Drifters from DA:O, we see a nearly devotional following of the Stone's calling by a group of diggers that led them to a serious threat to Orzammar, which they stopped by sacrificing their lives. By adding this spiritual side to the dwaves (however little explored it it), it gives the race a facet of being more than the stereotypes they are usually depicted as in the DA games... again, even if this hasn't been touched on all that often.

TL;DR

There were many more aspects of the lore that I think work great in the relgions of Thedas, but I thought I would disucss these because of their intrinsic worth to building the game world. By understanding these three concepts of the religions of Thedas, you gain a better understanding into its people and how they would interact with the world around them.

Again, not wanting a speculation discussion (but not fighting if anyone wants to start one), what does the BSN think of the narrative and world-building characteristics of Religion in the Lore of Thedas?

[Knight of Dane]

I think the dwarves have had or have gods old though.

Aren't there some named in Origins?

Modifié par Knight of Dane, 22 février 2013 - 12:08 .

[Chiramu]

Didn't Dwarves revere their paragons? Or did they have gods as well? Or were the paragons on the level of gods or gods in dwarven form?

Talks about religion can go round in circles.

[Knight of Dane]

Chiramu wrote...

Didn't Dwarves revere their paragons? Or did they have gods as well? Or were the paragons on the level of gods or gods in dwarven form?

Talks about religion can go round in circles.

Fast Jimmy wrote about that in his very post, didn't you read it?

[Daralii]

Chiramu wrote...

Didn't Dwarves revere their paragons? Or did they have gods as well? Or were the paragons on the level of gods or gods in dwarven form?

Talks about religion can go round in circles.

It's a little ambiguous, I think. Bartrand in DA2 says that the dwarves have revered the paragons practically since the dawn of their civilization, but the primeval thaig dwarves worshipped some sort of gods that the profane reference.

[Althix]

Ecclesiarchy... you know, just for justice alone you should have mentioned Chaos Gods as well.

Thing is, than let say in Forgotten Realms Gods have it's influence on the world, they speak to their choosen priests and command their will.

In Wh40k setting Emperor's might and divine presence can be seen in Angels, like Sanguinor or Living Saints and also miracles(which are rare, because you know... It's not truly a God yet).
Chaos Gods manifest their might more often and more obvious. Lesser and Greater Daemons summoning, boons of Chaos. Champions and Princes. Miracles. Rifts. Powerful artifacts.

In DA setting, any given religion(to be honest only one) is more or less doctrine of behavior for masses of humans and xenos like elves. Ashes? well maybe it's just penicillin in a urn how do we know?
Old Golds are not almighty, they are... even less than a Daemon Prince, they are just very powerful beasts.

Religion of DA setting is close to RL religion, except for holy fathers/mothers do not use mercedes-benz cars on daily basis and do not have couple of top level cell phones just because.

Modifié par secretsandlies, 22 février 2013 - 01:17 .

[Damate]

It's not just Paragons that Dwarves worship/revere, though: It's their ancestors as a whole. Paragons represent the "best of the best" but as a whole the Dwarves seem to engage in ancestor veneration. In the case of Filda in DA:O there seems to be actual worship going on: She prays at a shrine and places offerings there in the hopes of intercession from the ancestors regarding her son, Ruck. Whereas "veneration" is more about a filial responsibility to show respect and remembrance of ones ancestors, irregardless of any mystical outcome it may or may not have.

Dwarves are "returned to the Stone" on death - figuratively and literally? - and revered as ancestors from that point on: Isn't it mentioned that dwarves lose their stone sense because they divorce themselves from the very stone/ Stone in which the spirits of their ancestors dwell?

I think there's a good many hints towards a spiritual aspect of their ancestor veneration/worship: Just how much of it simply hasn't been mentioned in game or has been forgotten (along with things like the primeval thaig) is an interesting thought if nothing else.

Modifié par shygravel, 22 février 2013 - 01:20 .

[nightscrawl]

Interesting topic choice, and a surprising move away from game mechanics.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

By tying the Old Gods, and, by association, the Archdemons they become, to a deity or supernatural power, they become more than just big dragons, but rather true forces of nature (or forces of SUPERnature, as the case may be) which allow them to be confirmed with powers that border on the mystical without breaking the fourth wall or making any other dragons seem underpowered by comparison... after all, the Old Gods aren't dragons. They are gods in the FORM of dragons.

I thought this was a great point.

As far as Andrastianity goes, I would like there to be more of the "she means different things to different people" type of language. We did see some of that from Anders in DA2, and I think it provides a nice counterpoint to the Chantry and its traditions. Like in our world, the mystery contributes to some of the conflict, so I wouldn't want everything about Andraste laid bare. That would be boring.

I always looked at the dwarven relationship to the Stone, not as an actual sentient being, like the elven pantheon, but with their understanding that they come from the Stone, are a part of it, and will return to it when they die. It seems a very -- pardon the phrase -- down to earth kind of "religion," and much more attuned to the circle of life than any of the other religions that we have seen so far in Thedas.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 22 février 2013 - 01:37 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Nightscrawl wrote...
Interesting topic choice, and a surprising move away from game mechanics.

I love keeping the BSN on its toes.

I always looked at the dwarven relationship to the Stone, not as an actual sentient being, like the elven pantheon, but with their understanding that they come from the Stone, are a part of it, and will return to it when they die. It seems a very -- pardon the phrase -- down to earth kind of "religion," and much more attuned to the circle of life than any of the other religions that we have seen so far in Thedas.

I agree, but there is also things like the Nexus Golem is DA2, which states The Stone is under Orlais. While this may be a total throwaway, it can also be an allusion that The Stone is located somewhere, implying that it is a being that could have a corporeal form.

Or... you know... it was just some random text from a hidden merchant.

[Swagger7]

I really like how the DA franchise has handled religion so far. They keep everything interestingly ambiguous.

[Reznore57]

I really like religion in DA.(but faith and religions is something that fascinates me IRL...).

Anyway I really like the fact that no religion is more valid than another.
They all seems to be pieces of a puzzle , and may all have precious informations about the Blight and the future well being of Thedas.

I also like how in the current event there's a lot of power struggle going on (qunari/chantry/mages).

I'd really like to found out things like Andraste was a mage , or I don't know the elves were in war with their gods ...
Informations that have been lost or changed along the way for X reasons.
The chantry being "in danger " in DA3 excites me , I hope it will really raise question about faith in general.
I think it's really fascinating how faith can drive men and women to do wonderful things ( Mother Teresa , Gandhi etc ...) or awful atrocities.


The dwarves are interesting too, with the hints that they may have worshipped gods and have been forgotten by them ( like the Dalish , or even like the chantry.)
Their religion seems very pragmatic , they live among the stone , they hold onto their paragons.
I wonder if things are like that now because a long time ago , they decide to turn their back on their gods too.

I just think there's really ton of potential.
For politics , war , maybe hope for some (Dalish?Arlathan?)etc...

[Sith Grey Warden]

I would love to explore DA religion more in DA3. I'm especially interested in the Golden/Black City, and if it ever actually was golden, and what exactly happened to Cory and his group. While the Profane were interesting, I hope DA3 can elaborate on existing lore elements in addition to building new ones.

[Damate]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Nightscrawl wrote...
*snip*

I agree, but there is also things like the Nexus Golem is DA2, which states The Stone is under Orlais. While this may be a total throwaway, it can also be an allusion that The Stone is located somewhere, implying that it is a being that could have a corporeal form.

Or... you know... it was just some random text from a hidden merchant.

I... never knew the Nexus Golem said that line about The Stone and Orlais, I didn't catch it myself (I remember stuff about Amgarrak and something about the gauntlet, conversion and the Shaperate...). But! It tickled a memory: In Leliana's Song, Tug's weapon has this description after you retrieve it from the cell he was killed in, before giving it over as a gift to Sketch or Silas:

"Tug's Edge
Telltale notches show the violence of the week. The gold disc in the grip is gone, sold by Raleigh's men. But thoughtful hands can feel an inscription previously hidden: 'The Stone lives beneath Orlais.'"

So yeah, heh... easter egg? Throw away tomfoolery? A clue of sorts?  Who knows. But the same line definitely shows up in Origins DLC, before DA2. 

[Ellestor]

I don't think the relationship between dragons, the Old Gods, and the archdemons is so clear. Some of people's beliefs are clear enough, but they are just that. As with religion in general in this setting, I think the truth of things has been kept tantalizingly uncertain.

Refreshingly so, for someone more accustomed to the Forgotten Realms. 

Modifié par Ellestor, 22 février 2013 - 03:55 .

[TEWR]

There's a lot of evidence to point to the main religions of Thedas being truthful -- to a point. And indeed, Fast Jimmy, the Stone is hinted to be a living entity all its own.

Off the top of my head, here are a few things that show such:

1) The Crosscut Drifters.
2) The Nexus Golem saying "The Stone lives beneath Orlais", which you mentioned.
3) The Gangue Shade.
4) Sigrun's "Memories of the Stone are forever" comment.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 février 2013 - 03:57 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Ellestor wrote...

I don't think the relationship between dragons, the Old Gods, and the archdemons is so clear. Some of people's beliefs are clear enough, but they are just that. As with religion in general in this setting, I think the truth of things has been kept tantalizingly uncertain.

Refreshingly so, for someone more accustomed to the Forgotten Realms. 

Agreed, at least in regards to the dragons and Old Gods. There certainly are characteristics about the Archdemons that seem to defy the relationship seen between normal dragons. For instance, we run into a high dragon in the Deep Roads in DA2, where it surely would have encountered darkspawn, yet it is not corrupted by their presence into a force that becomes unkillable except by a Gray Warden, nor do we see darkspawn heeding its call. 

And we also know for sure that the Tevinters worshipped the phyisical beings of their Old Gods, in the type of dragon cult worship we saw with the dragon cult in Haven. This would likely mean that the Tevinters saw the Old God dragons themselves and that they told the magisters magical secrets (somehow). So these unique dragons once lived above ground, yet now slumber below, for reasons unknown aside from the Chantry dogma. 

So while things are unclear with the discussion of dragons vs. Old Gods, we do have some pretty compelling evidence that the Old Gods (or, at least, the dragons that specifically get turned into Archdemons) are a unique dragon breed, at the very least, if not the actual same dragons that the Tevinters worshipped.

[Fast Jimmy]

EntropicAngel wrote...

The problem with a religion topic is, i don't feel one can adequately discuss these things without comparing and contrasting their real-world equivalents, which always results in disaster.

Nonsense. Discussing the success (of failure) of the narrative in describing the game world and giving it detail and intrigue does not need to involve discussing real-life at all. 

I would suggest not discussing what the RELIGION is trying to say or do... just talk about what having said religious lore in the game does for the story as a whole.

[TEWR]

I can certainly appreciate the depth the religions of Thedas are given, despite some of them not being used to their full potential in the context of the games at times.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 février 2013 - 04:10 .

[TEWR]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

For instance, we run into a high dragon in the Deep Roads in DA2, where it surely would have encountered darkspawn, yet it is not corrupted by their presence into a force that becomes unkillable except by a Gray Warden, nor do we see darkspawn heeding its call.

To be fair, it wasn't a High Dragon. Just a Mature Dragon. Otherwise, you're correct in that it seemed unaffected.

Then again, we don't know how long it's been there. It could've entered the Deep Roads from another point and flown around to the point we meet it at. Or it could've been hiding from the Darkspawn.

We do know, however, that all Dragons can use blood magic. So that also lends some credence to the belief that the Old God Dumat taught blood magic to the Tevinters. But at the same time, it's claimed that the Elves taught blood magic to the Tevinters and Merrill refers to blood magic as the old ways, IIRC.

[LinksOcarina]

My problem is anything I would contribute would be speculation because honestly, I am damn good at it after years of training.

So I will just say that they work really well, and keep me questioning things vs their nature. And I hope that these questions are never fully answered.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
To be fair, it wasn't a High Dragon. Just a Mature Dragon. Otherwise, you're correct in that it seemed unaffected.

Then again, we don't know how long it's been there. It could've entered the Deep Roads from another point and flown around to the point we meet it at. Or it could've been hiding from the Darkspawn.

In "The Calling", when Duncan and his fellow Grey Wardens plus Maric flee from a rather large group of Darkspawn, they only managed to escape because they stumbled right into the lair of an High Dragon which the Spawn were obviously avoiding which lends credence to the belief that there is something unique about the Archdemons. It's not just any High Dragon that can become one.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
To be fair, it wasn't a High Dragon. Just a Mature Dragon. Otherwise, you're correct in that it seemed unaffected.

Then again, we don't know how long it's been there. It could've entered the Deep Roads from another point and flown around to the point we meet it at. Or it could've been hiding from the Darkspawn.

In "The Calling", when Duncan and his fellow Grey Wardens plus Maric flee from a rather large group of Darkspawn, they only managed to escape because they stumbled right into the lair of an High Dragon which the Spawn were obviously avoiding which lends credence to the belief that there is something unique about the Archdemons. It's not just any High Dragon that can become one.

Interesting. And strange, as we know the Architect was using Dragons in his experiments on the nature of the Taint, Grey Wardens, and Darkspawn -- even going so far as to breed them. Why experiment on them if there wasn't some connection between regular Dragons and Darkspawn?

Further adding fuel to this is the fact that a common trait shared between the Reaver Joining, Warden Joining, and the Darkspawn is that they all have the same weird menacing whispering noise -- and all of them are related to Dragons.

Hmmm.... methinks something is rotten in the state of Denmark Thedas.