307 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Riverdaleswhiteflash: What's so bad about ending the world? You think a universe with no Maker won't end? Why anthropomorphize the action by calling it an "evil"?

@Xilizhra:  Again - you want a babysitter - if I were to believe in the Maker, I'd expect no such caretaking.  I see such an attitude as selfish and lazy.

The utter horrors visited upon thousands of people daily from a lack of divine oversight are hardly a lack of simple "babysitting."

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Ah, so the Chantry position here is "might makes right?" I suspected as much, but it's nice to have it confirmed. In any case, single cells lack any consciousness that might be disrupted by death, and I don't smash anthills.

If God exists, then He is omniscient or He is not God. And if He is omniscient, then He knows what is right or wrong better than we humans do.

[Medhia Nox]

@shepard1038: Which actually states the Maker had nothing to do with the Darkspawn.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: It's this little concept called Free Will - maybe you've heard of it?

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Ah, so the Chantry position here is "might makes right?" I suspected as much, but it's nice to have it confirmed. In any case, single cells lack any consciousness that might be disrupted by death, and I don't smash anthills.

If God exists, then He is omniscient or He is not God. And if He is omniscient, then He knows what is right or wrong better than we humans do.

So you wouldn't accept any power that wasn't omniscient as counting as any god?

@Xilizhra: It's this little concept called Free Will - maybe you've heard of it?

Does not need to be tampered with. One could make humans immune to any harm that any other human tried to inflict, and the free will issue is a nonfactor when clamping down on natural disasters and the like.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 23 février 2013 - 03:35 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@shepard1038: Which actually states the Maker had nothing to do with the Darkspawn.

It states he sent them back. That's a bit more questionable than my original interpretation, in that he actively sent the Magisters back, thus actively harming a huge number of people who had nothing to do with that particular sin.

As for your assertion that a world without a god will end, that has nothing to do with a god killing or allowing the death of the world he created just because a tiny minority faction of it did something stupid.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 23 février 2013 - 03:39 .

[Plaintiff]

Medhia Nox wrote...
@Plaintiff: You do realize that a Maker that wouldn't allow you to do stupid **** like become Darkspawn... also wouldn't allow you to have Free Will - yes?

And who says the Maker allows free will? Certainly not the Chant of Light. A Maker who allows free will wouldn't have punished his children for exercising it. The Maker clearly doesn't want his children to have free will, he wants them to do what he damn well tells them to, and if even a few of them disobey, then everyone gets punished, forever and ever until the end of time

If the Chant is to be believed at all - it wasn't innocent men the Maker just randomly cursed to become Darkspawn.

But he did curse them. He cursed untold millions of innocents to suffer and die at the hands of the darkspawn, even people born thousands of years later who couldn't possibly have any connection to the original crime. Meanwhile, if Corypheus is any indication, the Tevinter Magisters aren't suffering at all. At worst, they're having a nice, long nap, and they get eternal life and extra powers into the bargain.

Because of the actions of a small group of men, the Maker decided it was reasonable to inflict suffering on all man, dwarf and elfkind, for the rest of eternity, or at least until all the darkspawn are finally killed.

He must've known what the darkspawn would do to humanity, because, according to the Chant of Light, he made the entire universe, and that includes the Darkspawn. That he could possibly think it was fair to inflict this horror on the rest of the known world is completely absurd.

At any rate - people want a Maker who is a micromanaging caretaker to wipe their ass and put powder on it every time they get a rash... AND they still want to be able to be stupid dip****s and do ****** things.  And when that doesn't happen - either the Maker isn't good - or doesn't exist.  Conditional "reason" isn't reason at all.

I don't believe that the Maker exists, regardless of the state of Thedas. The point is that the Chantry portrays his actions as loving, when they are in fact unreasonable and abusive.

The only way to stop humans (or dwarves, or elves, or Qunari - or whoever became Darkspawn) from being completely self-destructive idiots... is to remove Free Will.  The Qunari are trying this actually.

This assumes they have free will in the first place, and that's never been proven. If they do have free will, then it clearly wasn't an intentional git from The Maker. It's something they developed in spite of his best efforts to destroy them utterly.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: Then you assume that natural disasters - which serve a purpose in the natural order - are less important than humans.

There's a big universe out there - and it doesn't "need" humanity - your desire to not suffer a meteor isn't more important than the universes' need to have meteors in the first place. That they may - or may not - hit the planet is incidental.

@Plaintiff: No, he didn't curse them... I believe when the magisters entered the Golden City - he was gone yes?  They then turned it black - which in turn turned them to Darkspawn yes?  

Again - blaming some god figure for human stupidity.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 23 février 2013 - 03:38 .

[Xilizhra]

@Xilizhra: Then you assume that natural disasters - which serve a purpose in the natural order - are less important than humans.

Perhaps, but this is only applicable if the natural order is an ad hoc thing that came together without prior planning. If it was deliberately built, then everything could work in perfect harmony with everything else. I fail to see the merit in any Maker who would create a world that looked exactly like chaotic coincidence.

[wsandista]

This again? Has the atheist argument already happened?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Yep. Posted it myself.

[Plaintiff]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Plaintiff: No, he didn't curse them... I believe when the magisters entered the Golden City - he was gone yes?  They then turned it black - which in turn turned them to Darkspawn yes?  

Again - blaming some god figure for human stupidity.

If he was absent, and not paying attention, then who yelled at them for tracking mud inside? His maid?

[TEWR]

Plaintiff wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Plaintiff: No, he didn't curse them... I believe when the magisters entered the Golden City - he was gone yes?  They then turned it black - which in turn turned them to Darkspawn yes?  

Again - blaming some god figure for human stupidity.

If he was absent, and not paying attention, then who yelled at them for tracking mud inside? His maid?

No... no... No Maker here. You leave now.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 février 2013 - 03:49 .

[BlueMagitek]

I accept the above as canon. ~_^

[Medhia Nox]

And now you call all see why Darkspawn look as they do... if that isn't the first Broodmother, I don't know what to tell you.

[Reznore57]

And the wall in the picture is yellow/golden...^^
I think we're onto something.

[Daerog]

Xilizhra wrote...

MisterJB wrote...


If God exists, then He is omniscient or He is not God. And if He is omniscient, then He knows what is right or wrong better than we humans do.

So you wouldn't accept any power that wasn't omniscient as counting as any god?

Well, if we define "god" as (the) perfect being, then yes, god must be or it is not god but just a higher being, but not the highest potential....

Anyway, does it say that the Andrastians believe their Maker to be perfect (in the way we understand/define perfect)? All powerful, okay since he supposedly made everything, but I don't remember him being called all knowing. And if Andrastians really believe that the Maker has completely left Thedas, then it seems that the Maker is limited by actual/physical locations, and by limiting the Maker by giving him physical boundaries, the Maker can not be perfect, so Leliana should be right (that he is still at work in Thedas) as the current Andrastian teaching is flawed or the Maker is not perfect and is just a very powerful and superior being and can be dismissed as not god in a monotheistic sense, but could still be if the world is polytheistic... I guess...

I doubt the theologies in this game are meant to be picked apart, though, but gives me an excuse to reform the Chantry if possible in DA3... as a mage or rogue, haven't decided yet.

Edit: Also, if he is not in Thedas, how is he responsible for the darkspawn? Does he even know there are darkspawn, as he wasn't in the City? Oh, wait, he must know because Andraste came after the darkspawn, and then he just left again... wow... kind of rude. "Oh, looks like there is a taint in this world... hmmm... someone must have invaded my summer home... eh, they can take care of it."

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 23 février 2013 - 04:07 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Is the darkness spreading out from the top of her head, or is that supposed to be hair?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

I doubt the theologies in this game are meant to be picked apart, though, but gives me an excuse to reform the Chantry if possible in DA3... as a mage or rogue, haven't decided yet.

I think at least one of them was. The main one is just too similar to the criticisms of the Abrahamic God for it to be a convincing coincidence.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 23 février 2013 - 04:08 .

[Medhia Nox]

Could that be Sandal's mother?!

[Daerog]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

I doubt the theologies in this game are meant to be picked apart, though, but gives me an excuse to reform the Chantry if possible in DA3... as a mage or rogue, haven't decided yet.

I think they probably were. The main one is just too similar to the criticisms of the Abrahamic God for it to be a convincing coincidence.

But they aren't all that similar. This Maker supposedly left Thedas. That right there destroys the similarity. All the abrahamic faiths have God being eternally present (I think), and attributes perfection to God. The Maker can not be perfect if he is physically limited and absent from Thedas. So, while Leliana has to be right for it to work, the organized religion's (Chantry's) teachings are different as their god is not perfect.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 23 février 2013 - 04:11 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

I doubt the theologies in this game are meant to be picked apart, though, but gives me an excuse to reform the Chantry if possible in DA3... as a mage or rogue, haven't decided yet.

I think they probably were. The main one is just too similar to the criticisms of the Abrahamic God for it to be a convincing coincidence.

But they aren't all that similar. This Maker supposedly left Thedas. That right there destroys the similarity. All the abrahamic faiths have God being eternally present (I think), and attributes perfection to God. The Maker can not be perfect if he is physically limited and absent from Thedas. So, while Leliana has to be right for it to work, the organized religion's (Chantry's) teachings are different as their god is not perfect.

What I said was that he seems to be written around criticisms of the Abrahamic God. These criticisms include the fact that he is omnibenevolent, omnipotent and omniscient and yet somehow allows suffering, the fact that he does not prove his own existence and yet can't be disproven, as well as basically the entire existence of the Old Testament. (The latter is best likened to the Maker's entire personality.)

[shepard1038]

This is interesting, because it suggest the Maker hasn't turned is back on mankind;

Spite ate away all that was good, kind, and loving till nothing was left but the spite itself, coiled 'round my heart like a great worm.

And in my darkest hour, I turned from Her and vowed that I would destroy Her.

At the moment of Her death I knew what I had done, and I wept.

I shall bring the lands of my fathers to Her Word. Therein lies their salvation and mine.

And She came to me in a vision and laid Her hand on my heart.

Her touch was like fire that did not burn. And by Her touch, I was made pure again.

Despair not, said She, for your betrayal was Maker-blessed and returned me to His side.

I am forgiven.

Modifié par shepard1038, 23 février 2013 - 04:18 .

[Medhia Nox]

There's a lot of misinformation on this thread from people who have not studied, or have had limited exposure to, the Abrahamic religions.

There are so many differences, and the similarities are actually fairly universal throughout religion (the slain messiah in particular) - let's stick to Andraste and her big scary cult.

[Reznore57]

Is this a canticle from Maferath or Archon?

I think it's a bit worrying because "Your betrayal was Maker Blessed" and the fact that the chantry said the Maker turned away from humankind when His Bride was killed ...Kind of doesn't match.

From this canticle I get the feeling that the maker knew all along that Andraste would end up a martyr ...

Sometimes I really feel like if there's any "real" gods in DA they are all trickster.