307 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Is this a canticle from Maferath or Archon?

Maferath. It's one of the Dissonant Verses, considered not a true Chant of Light by the Chantry. Probably since it destroys their views on the Maker and all they really want is political clout across Thedas.

Archon is a title, and the only Archon we know about in relation to Andraste is Hessarian, but there isn't a Chant written by him as far as we know.

[Reznore57]

Hessarian is the sword of mercy guy , no?
I got confused because he had regret about hurting Andraste like Maferath.

Is there other lost /forbidden canticle , I know about the Shartan ones , but the only thing they prove is the Chantry have been really bitter about elves ...

[TEWR]

There's Shartan, Maferath, and Silence.

[Kidd]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

We who are forgotten, remember,
We clawed at rock until our fingers bled,
We cried out for justice, but were unheard.
Our children wept in hunger,
And so we feasted upon the gods.
Here we wait, in aeons of silence.
We few, we profane.—Found scrawled on a wall in the lost Revann Thaig by explorer Faruma Helmi, 5:10 Exalted. Unknown author.

They ate the Old Gods!? *shudders a lot* Now that's a way to make way for a first broodmother.

Thanks for typing up your wall of text! Loved every bit of it! ^^ Can definitely see where you get these impressions from. Very curious indeed about how darkspawn defend yet refrain from entering the PTs!

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Corypheus himself states that they were promised a Golden City, but upon their arrival it was already black. What I'm arguing is that there's more to suggest the PT was the source of all the Darkspawn in Thedas. Who knows whether or not the PT and BC are related, but they might be. Given what we know of the BC, I'd say it is related to the PT which also suggests a link to the Darkspawn.

It's fully possible that the Old Gods didn't know the Golden City had been corrupted. Thus they gave their followers the tools to enter the city, possibly hoping for a mutually beneficial find in there. If the taint had somehow taken the city already unbekomst to the Old Gods - such as if the darkspawn from the PT or elsewhere had already spread their curse through the old dwarven magic - then it all makes sense.

What happens after that seems hardly beneficial to the Old Gods and would simply be them reaping the terrible rewards of their own mistakes.

[Daralii]

Reznore57 wrote...

Is this a canticle from Maferath or Archon?

I think it's a bit worrying because "Your betrayal was Maker Blessed" and the fact that the chantry said the Maker turned away from humankind when His Bride was killed ...Kind of doesn't match.

From this canticle I get the feeling that the maker knew all along that Andraste would end up a martyr ...

That part's from the Canticle of Maferath, which is(conveniently) outlawed by the Chantry iirc.

Spite ate away all that was good, kind, and loving till nothing was
left but the spite itself, coiled 'round my heart like a great worm.

And in my darkest hour, I turned from Her and vowed that I would destroy Her.

At the moment of Her death I knew what I had done, and I wept.

I shall bring the lands of my fathers to Her Word. Therein lies their salvation and mine.

And She came to me in a vision and laid Her hand on my heart.

Her touch was like fire that did not burn. And by Her touch, I was made pure again.

Despair not, said She, for your betrayal was Maker-blessed and returned me to His side.

I am forgiven.

Modifié par Daralii, 23 février 2013 - 09:51 .

[karushna5]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Well, if we define "god" as (the) perfect being, then yes, god must be or it is not god but just a higher being, but not the highest potential....

To define God in such a sense really limits lots of religions that came before Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. In some ways they are not even the only monotheistic religions. Many religions show a god or gods or even God making a mistake. Part of religion is to teach and sometimes that is to show gods mistakes. My favorite story is of Indra who became so prideful, a group of ants so think they covered his palace came, he was told all these ants were Indra, King of the Gods.

In fact I think most religions teach the religion by showing gods mistakes.

[Fast Jimmy]

karushna5 wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Well, if we define "god" as (the) perfect being, then yes, god must be or it is not god but just a higher being, but not the highest potential....

To define God in such a sense really limits lots of religions that came before Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. In some ways they are not even the only monotheistic religions. Many religions show a god or gods or even God making a mistake. Part of religion is to teach and sometimes that is to show gods mistakes. My favorite story is of Indra who became so prideful, a group of ants so think they covered his palace came, he was told all these ants were Indra, King of the Gods.

In fact I think most religions teach the religion by showing gods mistakes.

NO. REAL. LIFE. RELIGION. TALK.

[Plaintiff]

Can we discuss other pretend ones? I think there are some interesting parallels between Andrastism and the Star Trek-based religion presented in Futurama.

[lil yonce]

Plaintiff wrote...

It doesn't. That's the problem. In much the same way that Twilight portrays the creepy behaviour of Edward Cullen as romantic, the Chant of Light portrays the Maker as a "good" being. But unleashing the Darkspawn on mankind is totally unacceptable, no matter what the circumstances. Any deity who would actually do that cannot truly be a good and loving one

The Chant of light doesn't say the Maker created the Darkspawn. He kicked them out of the Golden City understandably. They tainted it with their Sin. The verse dealing with Magisters says,

"Violently were they cast down, For no mortal may walk bodily In the realm of dreams, Bearing the mark of their Crime: Bodies so maimed And distorted that none should see them And know them for men."

The crime was the sin of Pride -- breaching the Golden City. How did they do that? By using 2/3 of the lyrium in Thedas. Extreme lyrium use turns mages into monsters. The Chant of Light doesn't say, "And on that day, the Maker created Darkspawn to stand as an example of His power forever and ever." It gives Him create for creating everything else but it doesn't give Him credit for the Darkspawn. You can't blame the Maker for something He didn't do.

"Mages have additionally been known to suffer physical mutation: The magister lords of the Tevinter Imperium were widely reputed to have been so affected by their years of lyrium use that they could not be recognized by their own kin, nor even as creatures that had once been human."--From In Pursuit of Knowledge: The Travels of a Chantry Scholar, by Brother Genitivi

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 23 février 2013 - 04:00 .

[Xilizhra]

The Chant of light doesn't say the Maker created the Darkspawn. He kicked them out of the Golden City understandably. They tainted it with their Sin. The verse dealing with Magisters says,

If they were going to infect Thedas, it's not understandable. He should have blasted them out of existence, or kept them imprisoned, if anything.

[lil yonce]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...
It's fully possible that the Old Gods didn't know the Golden City had been corrupted. Thus they gave their followers the tools to enter the city, possibly hoping for a mutually beneficial find in there. If the taint had somehow taken the city already unbekomst to the Old Gods - such as if the darkspawn from the PT or elsewhere had already spread their curse through the old dwarven magic - then it all makes sense.

What happens after that seems hardly beneficial to the Old Gods and would simply be them reaping the terrible rewards of their own mistakes.

I don't think the Golden City was corrupt, but I do think it was black. Here's why. To be cryptic, "In the absense of light, shadows thrive."

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 23 février 2013 - 03:13 .

[lil yonce]

Xilizhra wrote...

If they were going to infect Thedas, it's not understandable. He should have blasted them out of existence, or kept them imprisoned, if anything.

How do you know His plan doesn't involve that and something greater? Through the Blights the Old Gods are being killed off by those they deceived into worship.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 23 février 2013 - 03:15 .

[Xilizhra]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If they were going to infect Thedas, it's not understandable. He should have blasted them out of existence, or kept them imprisoned, if anything.

How do you know His plan doesn't involve that and something greater? Through the Blights the Old Gods are being killed off by those they deceived into worship.

Something that I intend to stop, and have taken steps to in Origins. I'm not going to see the genocide of the Old Gods if I can help it.

[lil yonce]

Xilizhra wrote...

Something that I intend to stop, and have taken steps to in Origins. I'm not going to see the genocide of the Old Gods if I can help it.

The OBG ritual? I think Andraste was an OGB. I don't the Old Gods exist as they once did after that ritual. Not their evil.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 23 février 2013 - 03:59 .

[Xilizhra]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Something that I intend to stop, and have taken steps to in Origins. I'm not going to see the genocide of the Old Gods if I can help it.

The OBG ritual? I think Andraste was an OGB. I don't the Old Gods exist as they once did after that ritual. Not their evil.

Regardless, I doubt it'll be a true issue because I don't believe the Maker exists. But I'll do everything I can do demand an accounting for his actions if he does.

[Damate]

Isn't it just as likely that the Maker, if "he" exists at all, is simply another god-like entity amidst a pantheon of other god-like entities (from the Old Gods, to the elven gods, etc etc etc) -- all of whom may be no more than very powerful Spirits and/or magically imbued creatures? I think there's a strong inclination by some fans to attribute to the Maker and the Chantry a RL religious allegory that perhaps the writers never intended. Sure, are there correlations? Of course... people draw from existing ideas all the time. But I don't think the writers of the DA series intended, oh, a C.S. Lewis approach when coming up with the Maker and the Chantry.

The existence of the Black City in the Fade is no proof at all that the Chantry has anything right: Not when spirits like Justice in Awakening openly speak of how so much of the Fade is purely a construct of the dreams and thoughts spirits witness in the minds of sleeping mortals. An emulation, an attempt to fill their own world with the imaginative creations they can only experience passively [unless they manage to breach the veil].

Add to it that Andraste came after the First Blight: And if I'm correct up until that point there was no mention of a Maker, yes? Andraste - and then her followers - come up with their allegories and tenants concerning the Maker, but where the root idea of this Deity comes from, we - as players - have no idea (unless I've missed something! Which is totally and utterly possible!). Did the Tevinters teach of a Primary Deity, some force of Creation? The Elven Pantheon has All-Father/All-Mother type representations: Was Andraste influenced by these ideas during her time as a slave to the Tevinters, either from the Imperium itself or elven slaves around her? And given Andraste arriving after the devastation of the First Blight - which in and of itself lasted hundreds of years - are we really going to look to Chantry writings (themselves writing a good deal after Andraste was martyred) to provide the definitive (or, worse, literal) interpretation of what happened to cause the Blights, Darkspawn, Archdemons, etc?

Since I don't, personally, believe Bioware was setting out to teach RL religious allegory in any Lewis-ian manner or Philosophy/Ideology of any sort, I think it's far more likely that either:
a) It'll turn out that the Maker is nothing more than a spirit/ideal/embodiment-- either unique unto itself or a reflection of some other established pantheon.
We'll simply.... never know. Because it isn't important to the game that we know.

Meh... just my rambles, written before having my second cup of coffee, so if this makes no sense, my pardons: I blame the nasty overload of blood in my caffeine-stream. ⌐.⌐

[TEWR]

Before I head off to work I'll address one thingy...

Andraste - and then her followers - come up with their allegories and tenants concerning the Maker, but where the root idea of this Deity comes from, we - as players - have no idea (unless I've missed something! Which is totally and utterly possible!

Actually, the Tevinters did believe there was a Creator at one point in time but thought he had abandoned mankind eons ago.

David Gaider wrote...

The cult of the Old Gods (I don't call it "the Tevinter religion" mainly because that, to me, speaks of the Imperial Chantry -- which is based in today's Tevinter Imperium) didn't contradict the existence of the Maker. Quite the opposite. The people of ancient Tevinter were aware of the existence of the Golden City and ascribed to "the Maker" (though this Creator was not called this until the appearance of the Chantry) the creation of the world. The Old Gods were not creators, though they were supposedly also not created. The Old Gods were outside of the Creator's Plan and showed up to whisper to mankind and teach them magic. According to the Chantry, they turned mankind away from their regard for a remote Creator (who ruled remotely and never interacted with his own creations) and that this is what made the Creator abandon the Golden City... though there is argument that the cult believed the Creator had abandoned it long before and that they were adrift, rescued by the Old Gods. Modern sages say that this is attempt to explain the hardships that the early human civilizations faced, and not evidence of the Maker actually being absent.

So when Andraste showed up much, much later, she was advocating a return to the "rightful" worship of the Maker... it was not a belief that came out of nowhere.

From the thread The Chantry, the Maker, the Old Gods: questions by AndreaDraco

[lil yonce]

shygravel wrote...

Isn't it just as likely that the Maker, if "he" exists at all, is simply another god-like entity amidst a pantheon of other god-like entities (from the Old Gods, to the elven gods, etc etc etc) -- all of whom may be no more than very powerful Spirits and/or magically imbued creatures? I think there's a strong inclination by some fans to attribute to the Maker and the Chantry a RL religious allegory that perhaps the writers never intended. Sure, are there correlations? Of course... people draw from existing ideas all the time. But I don't think the writers of the DA series intended, oh, a C.S. Lewis approach when coming up with the Maker and the Chantry.

The Maker is described a creator in the Chant of Light while the other gods are not said to be. The Maker would be elevated because of that. I don't think the Maker is meant to be just another god lore wise because of the qualities He is assigned.

The existence of the Black City in the Fade is no proof at all that the Chantry has anything right: Not when spirits like Justice in Awakening openly speak of how so much of the Fade is purely a construct of the dreams and thoughts spirits witness in the minds of sleeping mortals. An emulation, an attempt to fill their own world with the imaginative creations they can only experience passively [unless they manage to breach the veil].

I don't think the Spirits were the first children of the Maker. I do think the Chantry is wrong there. I think the Old Gods were and the Chantry teaches Spirits as the Maker's first children because they've stricken a verse from the Chant that states otherwise. 

Add to it that Andraste came after the First Blight: And if I'm correct up until that point there was no mention of a Maker, yes? Andraste - and then her followers - come up with their allegories and tenants concerning the Maker, but where the root idea of this Deity comes from, we - as players - have no idea (unless I've missed something! Which is totally and utterly possible!).

The lore says the Maker had been forgotten about after man turned to worship of the Old Gods and the Creators but He revealed Himself to Andraste because she was truly special. Where did the Maker come from? Like was He a storm god of humanity before blah, blah, blah that came to importance when blah, blah, blah? That hasn't been stated. I don't think that would affect the role of the Maker lore wise or in future games.

Did the Tevinters teach of a Primary Deity, some force of Creation? The Elven Pantheon has All-Father/All-Mother type representations: Was Andraste influenced by these ideas during her time as a slave to the Tevinters, either from the Imperium itself or elven slaves around her? And given Andraste arriving after the devastation of the First Blight - which in and of itself lasted hundreds of years - are we really going to look to Chantry writings (themselves writing a good deal after Andraste was martyred) to provide the definitive (or, worse, literal) interpretation of what happened to cause the Blights, Darkspawn, Archdemons, etc?

The Chant of Light isn't a chantry writing. They base their teaching on it, but I suspect they couldn't have changed too much of it if they wanted to because no one would follow them if so.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 23 février 2013 - 04:31 .

[Damate]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

*snip*

From the thread The Chantry, the Maker, the Old Gods: questions by AndreaDraco

Ah, thank you! It doesn't surprise me that an idea of a Creator diety/all-father/etc existed. 

[Damate]

Youth4Ever wrote...

*Snip*

The Chant of Light isn't a chantry writing. They base their teaching on it, but I suspect they couldn't have changed too much of it if they wanted to because no one would follow them if so.

So interesting points throughout your response, I just think you're more willing to attribute an essence of vital importance to the lore of the Maker and the Chantry than I am. At present, at least: If the game continues to build on that lore and we get more than just snippets of verses here and there or 'OOC' tid-bits from Devs, then I may be entirely wrong and the Chantry's teachings aren't entirely the red-herring [like communism! ⌐.⌐ yeah, I may be showing my age there] I currently believe them to be. 

I left the last bit of your response though, because it's the only part I don't follow on: The Chant of Light --- is the cantciles and versus that embody the beliefs of the Chantry, yes? Furthermore, it is stated in-game that it does, indeed, change: In Origins, the priestess outside of the Denerim chantry talks about dissonant verses and how translations from the original Tevinter as well as the passage of time has changed the Chant. 

The truth is: People believe what they want, even if there may be oddities that cast their faith in a questionable light. I'm not going to discuss real world religion - this isn't the place for it - but there are any number of examples to draw from of blatant ommisions and errors in religious doctrin and text, brought to light --- and yet those religions remain intact, often thriving. Faith drives it, beyond the changed trappings and tenents of the dogma. So, game related: It's stated in game that the Chant of Light has, indeed, changed over time. And many priests/scholars are quick to speak of allegory rather than strict truths in regards to the verses. Ultimately that doesn't matter, as it's the core comfort of believing in a Maker who may one day return if we only do x, y and z -- or the inherent power behind any kind of religion or doctrin that perpetuates the idea that their tenenants must be followed in order to achieve the best possible life/salvation/etc. It just depends on how embracing or cynical you want to be. 

[Fast Jimmy]

On a totally different tangent... the would of the Old God was brought up a few comments ago. We are told the Grey Wardens are the one needed to kill the Old God, since it will be attracted to the taint that exists. Makes sense.

Morrigan then states that the Dark Ritual is needed to conceive a child that will bear the taint, and that the ritual will act as a homing beacon to the Old God when it's Archdemon form is slain, ensuring neither the child nor the soul of the Old God is destroyed, resulting in the Old God Baby.

There's a couple things here...

1) If the OGB has the taint as part of the process by which the Old God's soul is attracted, and the presence of the Darkspawn taint causes the Old God to be transformed into an Archdemon, then why does the taint in the OGB not cause the soul of the Old God to be insane and turn into an Archdemon immediately?

2) We know there are souls in the DA universe, as through the explanation of both the Dark Ritual as well as the Arcane Warrior soul stone. This proves that many beings have a soul that exists beyond the death of the body. Both examples also tell us that a soul can be destroyed. Does the Chant address this in any way that we have seen? Is there any afterlife for the good, other than "to be at be Maker's side?" And is there any punishment to being evil for Andrastians in the next life?

3) Lastly, was the Dark Ritual necessary? There exists ways to capture souls (again, reference back to the Arcane Warrior) that doesn't involve having them reborn. Could not a piece of the taint as well as the same homing beacon Morrigan put in the child exist instead in a soul stone of sorts? Preserving the soul in a contained method, but not having it be reborn? Or some other solution that could easily exist in the lore we have seen? If so, what could be the purpose of sealing the soul inside a mortal child?

[Fast Jimmy]

double post, please delete. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 23 février 2013 - 05:46 .

[Damate]

^ Somehow the whole Dark Ritual was supposed to not only ensure the birth of the OGB, but also ensure that the "soul retrieved" was that of the Old God and NOT the tainted arch-demon the Old God became. It's been a while, so I may misremember, but I don't -think- Morrigan explains precisely how that's possible. She gives the Warden the gist of the ritual and what she wants to achieve and how it will benefit the Warden... and that's about it. I do recall her assurances that the infant would not be tainted, if the Warden asks about the child with branching dialogue options.

As for the 3rd part: Sure, I'd be damned well surprised if there wasn't some other way to preserve the soul of the old god/archdemon. I mean, it's a fantasy world full of magic: Imagining some other way to achieve a similar goal is just a matter of cobbling together some more bits and pieces of lore (like your mention of the Arcane Warrior's Soul Gem) and extrapolating from there. So why the Dark Ritual? It seems clear that Flemeth/Morrigan want a living, breathing reincarnation to work with, not a soul held in stasis. Why? Well, dammit, here's hoping that's eventually answered because I'd sure like to know! XD If some theories are correct and Flemeth is trying to bring back the high dragons who are somehow tied to the very essence of magic in the world, then perhaps the OGB can somehow facilitate this. Either way, I think any future impact the OGB has will be interesting, but not integral: If your Save Import has the OGB in existence, then a future plot may be more feasible/difficult/whatever... but not entirely altered, so as not to leave out content for those who don't have a play-through where the Dark Ritual was accepted.

Personally, I'd love to see an ultimate scenario in game where it comes out that, in terms of all of these theological/faith/philosophical beliefs: No one is entirely right and no one is entirely wrong, but there are definite people/entities/beings (I'd prefer it be a group or, even better, multiple groups/people, than just one big-bad-master-mind, personally) pulling the strings, manipulating and taking advantage of these notions and beliefs to further their own goal, whatever it may be. And through that development we gain further lore and insight into the basis and foundation of 'modern day' (in-world modern day, I mean) state of events.

[Reznore57]

I think if your soul doesn't go to the Maker , it wanders forever in a kind of void....
We know the soul goes to the fade at first ...Yavana ( in the comics ) interrogate a dead body by calling his soul back few minutes after the guy was slain.

About the OGB and the taint ,Morrigan needed the taint because old gods can get into tainted creature (like corypheus), but from what I understand her whole purpose is to have an untainted soul.
When grey wardens have children , the child doesn't get tainted.
We know for sure the taint is not a STD , so my guess is it's all about the Dark Ritual.

And about why Morrigan did this , we know her mother and sister work to save Dragons .It seems they are a vital part of Thedas.
Morrigan said something like "there are things worth saving"...We know some gods ( from elven and chantry lore ) have been put in prison.
Not killed .The maker didn't destroy them , the dread wolf didn't destroy them...
Now the taint force mortals to do it , but I don't think it's a very good idea.
We'll see.

About the child , well ...I think a sex ritual is way sexier than "hey warden can you go to the battlefield with this chamber pot , I'm gonna put a OG soul in it!".

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

Something that I intend to stop, and have taken steps to in Origins. I'm not going to see the genocide of the Old Gods if I can help it.

I don't understand.  You decry the Maker and the Chantry, and while they're not the cleanest, how can you support the "create oceans of blood from slaves" Old Gods?