307 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

I know that many people want things to stay ambiguous on religion. I do not, either in-game or IRL. I want to tear open the world and learn everything I can about as much as I can, especially the truth behind the world of Thedas... and our own, if possible. Faith is insufficient, uncertainty is a constant irritant.

Also, if the Maker does exist, I really want to kill the bastard.

[Daerog]

The thing with big cosmos things or god or gods that are supposed to be the most supreme and almighty and all powerful things... I sometimes find it ridiculous that some fantasy games present it like old mythology tales. Like some being or something that is supposed to be far superior to a human could be fully grasped by such an inferior being. Like an ant fully understanding a human.
I like how DA still has the religions grasping for knowledge (Brother Genitivi), and while gaining insight into their own faith, still having its mysteries.
Although the teachings of the Imperial Chantry are obviously correct, even if the higher ups and the followers in the nobility don't practice it very well.

Would like to see some of the elvish faith rediscovered and explored, though. As well as Rivani's "Natural Order" faith.

Maybe some old relics from the faith that originally worshiped the Maker or whatever faith Tevinter had before the Old Gods came in.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 22 février 2013 - 06:55 .

[KingGunDragon]

The Maker is just its his people who are fools. the maker did not hate magic.

I think im going to use my female templar hawk for my cannon just because I liked how her faith effect her story and her action.

My next character will be a male reaver who starts off as a dragon worshiper. If subclases really matter. He will slowly convert to a follower of the Maker.

I do hope that we learn more about the golden city and the old gods. Some more on the dawf ruins found in the 2nd game would also be nice

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

I maintain the belief that Andraste was a very powerful mage. Proof of the existence of The Maker has been left ambiguous, so whether she was chosen to be his bride or not is debatable.

Fast Jimmy alludes to knowledge we have of Andraste not supporting the idea that she may have been a mage. That knowledge comes from scripture, and by definition is mythical and mystical in nature. What we know of religious figures IRL like Jesus, the Buddha, and Mohammed are based on religious holy texts and cannot be treated as accurate historical records. I regard Andrastian writings concerning the so-called Bride of the Maker with the same skepticism.

Modifié par The Teryn of Whatever, 22 février 2013 - 07:12 .

[Chaos Lord Malek]

But Andraste didn't formed the Chantry, Emperor Drakon did. The faith is only named after her - Andrastrian, just as we have Christians based off Christ. (She is obviously mix of Christ and Joan of Ark, and Emperor Drakon is probably a mix of Saint Peter and Emperor Tiberius)

Modifié par Chaos Lord Malek, 22 février 2013 - 07:12 .

[ultimatekotorfan]

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

I maintain the belief that Andraste was a very powerful mage. Proof of the existence of The Maker has been left ambiguous, so whether she was chosen to be his bride or not is debatable.

Fast Jimmy alludes to knowledge we have of Andraste not supporting the idea that she may have been a mage. That knowledge comes from scripture, and by definition is mythical and mystical in nature. What we know of religious figures IRL like Jesus, the Buddha, and Mohammed are based on religious holy texts and cannot be treated as accurate historical records. I regard Andrastian writings concerning the so-called Bride of the Maker with the same skepticism.

This.

Also, I always assumed that the Stone was just a circle of life philosophy and less of a religion, but after reading all about these multiple references to the Stone being under Orlais, I'm pretty excited and a little anxious. I liked the idea that the dwarves revered their ancestors but didn't really have any gods to speak of, (I also enjoyed the allusion the primeval thaig made to dwarven gods that had been abandoned or forgotten) I'm not sure how I feel about the Stone being an actual thing that exists in the real world as opposed to just being part of a philosophy...

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

The thing with big cosmos things or god or gods that are supposed to be the most supreme and almighty and all powerful things... I sometimes find it ridiculous that some fantasy games present it like old mythology tales. Like some being or something that is supposed to be far superior to a human could be fully grasped by such an inferior being. Like an ant fully understanding a human.

So a god being too inconceivable or almighty is a good thing or being like in old mythology tales is?

[Wulfram]

I don't really want the historical mysteries to be cleared up. Revealing Andraste was a mage is something that'd particularly annoy me, because it seems like it would end up being a cheap way to resolve the whole mage/templar thing.

I'd rather see some of the things that our characters would know or could relatively easily find out cleared up. Like whether the whole "magic is a curse" thing comes from the Chant, or from official Chantry doctrine but not the Chant, or is just an unofficial thing people came up with because being a mage sucked. And I'd like to be clear if Leliana's views on a more active and loving maker are still heretical even though the Grand Cleric and Sebastian seemed to share them. And whether there's any actual evidence that Dalish lifespans have been increased by avoiding human contact.

[Kidd]

I love what they're doing with religion in these games. Huge parts of me want the writers to lay it all down and tell me everything, but at the same time, I kinda know that will make the world less special. Perhaps if BioWare knows the game they're making is the very last game, they could tell the answers to all the mysteries. But before then, I like getting an answer and then two more questions =)

What I want to know is what is up with all this singing. The Old Gods sing as they sleep, luring the darkspawn closer. The Archdemons sing, as referenced by the Mother for instance. The blood or essence of the Archdemon seemingly sing for the Wardens as they go through the Joining. The Stone sings for Brunar of the Crosscut Drifters. Andraste sung for the Maker. The Chantry leads a religion spread through singing. The Dalish sing for the Hearthkeeper. The lyrium idol sings to those who touch it.

... and Flemeth asks the Warden why they do not sing.

Of course many of these would be red-herrings. The Dalish singing is for instance at first glance not as important as the song of the Archdemon. That could also very well be true, it's even most likely. But singing in itself may be special in some way. Perhaps it's all part of one song? Is it really the Archdemon, Andraste and The Stone that sing or is it perhaps another song which others - perhaps even the Maker - pick up on and mistake as the song of others? Does singing have power? Is the bard specialisation more than simple morale boosts?

Perhaps I'm just being silly, but I feel there could be something to this.

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 22 février 2013 - 12:20 .

[Fast Jimmy]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

I love what they're doing with religion in these games. Huge parts of me want the writers to lay it all down and tell me everything, but at the same time, I kinda know that will make the world less special. Perhaps if BioWare knows the game they're making is the very last game, they could tell the answers to all the mysteries. But before then, I like getting an answer and then two more questions =)

One thing I would like to clarify is that I would really, REALLY hope that SOMEONE does know the answers. As in, a real-life person, like a Gaider. If Bioware is just making it up as they go along (or if they have a "rough concept" on what the bigger answers are) this leads to lore inconsistencies. If they ever have a Big Reveal moment about many of the religions in Thedas, it might quickly turn into an ME3 ending issue, where the fans who have scrutinized every bit of lore start scratching their heads and saying "What? That directly contradicts what you told us here, here and here." 

The lore of Thedas' religion is very interesting and effective at drawing us into the narrative, but if there are breadcrumbs to a story trail that winds up contradicting itself in the long run, then that is a big problem. The story of the game itself where such a reveal may or may not happen doesn't need to be thought of or discussed (I know plans change), but determining what happened in events in the past, even the long ancient past, that now shape the world today are important for those who control the history of the franchise's story to know. If only to prevent stepping in it at a later date.

What I want to know is what is up with all this singing. The Old Gods sing as they sleep, luring the darkspawn closer. The Archdemons sing, as referenced by the Mother for instance. The blood or essence of the Archdemon seemingly sing for the Wardens as they go through the Joining. The Stone sings for Brunar of the Crosscut Drifters. Andraste sung for the Maker. The Chantry leads a religion spread through singing. The Dalish sing for the Hearthkeeper. The lyrium idol sings to those who touch it.

... and Flemeth asks the Warden why they do not sing.

Of course many of these would be red-herrings. The Dalish singing is for instance at first glance not as important as the song of the Archdemon. That could also very well be true, it's even most likely. But singing in itself may be special in some way. Perhaps it's all part of one song? Is it really the Archdemon, Andraste and The Stone that sing or is it perhaps another song which others - perhaps even the Maker - pick up on and mistake as the song of others? Does singing have power? Is the bard specialisation more than simple morale boosts?

Perhaps I'm just being silly, but I feel there could be something to this.

This may or may not be a topic of Part 3 of this series... :innocent:

[nightscrawl]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I agree, but there is also things like the Nexus Golem is DA2, which states The Stone is under Orlais. While this may be a total throwaway, it can also be an allusion that The Stone is located somewhere, implying that it is a being that could have a corporeal form.

Or... you know... it was just some random text from a hidden merchant.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. =/

While I do think that devs enjoy throwing hints and such around, I think players can sometimes get carried away with trying to decipher something that might have been meaningless to a dev to begin with.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 22 février 2013 - 01:02 .

[MisterJB]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...
What I want to know is what is up with all this singing. The Old Gods sing as they sleep, luring the darkspawn closer. The Archdemons sing, as referenced by the Mother for instance. The blood or essence of the Archdemon seemingly sing for the Wardens as they go through the Joining. The Stone sings for Brunar of the Crosscut Drifters. Andraste sung for the Maker. The Chantry leads a religion spread through singing. The Dalish sing for the Hearthkeeper. The lyrium idol sings to those who touch it.

Dragon Age: The Musical.
I would pay good money for that.

[Kidd]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

One thing I would like to clarify is that I would really, REALLY hope that SOMEONE does know the answers. As in, a real-life person, like a Gaider. If Bioware is just making it up as they go along (or if they have a "rough concept" on what the bigger answers are) this leads to lore inconsistencies. If they ever have a Big Reveal moment about many of the religions in Thedas, it might quickly turn into an ME3 ending issue, where the fans who have scrutinized every bit of lore start scratching their heads and saying "What? That directly contradicts what you told us here, here and here."

Definitely. Not to mention it can lead to observable inconsistencies even before a final revelation is made. In fact, the Megaman series ran into a very similar issue. One very important character could be logically surmised as being dead, alive and in a coma all at once. And they had to be, otherwise the timeline would fall apart.

Not wanting said inconsistencies to exist, the team had to create an entire game with an incredibly farfetched plotline just to excuse the odd status quo. Considering how much more expensive a Dragon Age title is to make compared to a 2D platformer on Gameboy Advance, I doubt BioWare can afford the same luxury (not to mention the same hit to the player's suspense of disbelief; I believe most gamers accept contrived explanations more easily in Megaman than in DA ).

Bottomline, yes I hope they know the truth to all this and are simply toying with us like goldfish in a fishbowl. We Thedosians may not understand why certain kinds of food fall into our world at certain times, why the Two-Legged Gods give different kinds of food and why it seems completely random which Two-Legged God brings nutrition at which time. Or why the world is sometimes made empty only to be made full once again in a cleaner water tank.

But as long as the writers know what is going on in the lives of the people who own the fishbowl, there will no inconsistencies

Fast Jimmy wrote...

This may or may not be a topic of Part 3 of this series... :innocent:

Looking forward to seeing your thoughts, then ^^

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
The Old Gods

- snip -

Cthulhu: The Calling. Unfortunately, Dragon Age's archdemons and dragon cult story is not as dark and horror as their original idea.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Andraste

-Snip -

The Virgin Mary with the story of Jesus Christ. Instead of tying the event of Adam and Eve in Eden, BioWare opt to connect the First Sin with Cthulu: The Calling.

Fast Jimmy wrote...


The Stone

The Pagan with the teaching of Taoisme which empasize family value above everything. And yes, they worship their ancestors. Enough said.

The Dalish's Gods concept is borrowed from Hinduism who believe in multiple divines. Some can be identified through their roles in day to day life.

Fast Jimmy wrote...



TL;DR

There were many more aspects of the lore that I think work great in the relgions of Thedas, but I thought I would disucss these because of their intrinsic worth to building the game world. By understanding these three concepts of the religions of Thedas, you gain a better understanding into its people and how they would interact with the world around them.

Again, not wanting a speculation discussion (but not fighting if anyone wants to start one), what does the BSN think of the narrative and world-building characteristics of Religion in the Lore of Thedas?

Lack the depth and detail of their original source. Barely touch the surface of their original concept. I think BioWare should study theology more. It's doubtful wise to tie the reality of First Sin concept  with the fictional Cthulu: The Calling to create entirely new fiction. The nature and the truth about of the First Sin itself is still heavily debated by theology scholars. BioWare's Andrastian religion is nothing but a laughing concept to them. But then again, I guess not many scholars would waste their time arguing the "intelligence" of fictional game religion.    

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 22 février 2013 - 01:28 .

[Fast Jimmy]

MisterJB wrote...

KiddDaBeauty wrote...
What I want to know is what is up with all this singing. The Old Gods sing as they sleep, luring the darkspawn closer. The Archdemons sing, as referenced by the Mother for instance. The blood or essence of the Archdemon seemingly sing for the Wardens as they go through the Joining. The Stone sings for Brunar of the Crosscut Drifters. Andraste sung for the Maker. The Chantry leads a religion spread through singing. The Dalish sing for the Hearthkeeper. The lyrium idol sings to those who touch it.

Dragon Age: The Musical.
I would pay good money for that.

A muscial about Dragon Age...?

Who could possibly conceive of that? Certainly not something I'm working on for the Song Parody thread or anything... certainly!

[Fast Jimmy]

nightscrawl wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I agree, but there is also things like the Nexus Golem is DA2, which states The Stone is under Orlais. While this may be a total throwaway, it can also be an allusion that The Stone is located somewhere, implying that it is a being that could have a corporeal form.

Or... you know... it was just some random text from a hidden merchant.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. =/

While I do think that devs enjoy throwing hints and such around, I think players can sometimes get carried away with trying to decipher something that might have been meaningless to a dev to begin with.

See: The Enigma of Kirkwall letters

EDIT: Also, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

But sometimes... its an exploding cigar! Or a device used to blur the lines between what is sexual relations with a woman... 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 22 février 2013 - 01:34 .

[Dave of Canada]

*cough*

Slightly relevant.

[Xilizhra]

Cthulhu: The Calling. Unfortunately, Dragon Age's archdemons and dragon cult story is not as dark and horror as their original idea.

Well, no, because they're not supposed to be Cthulhu. The Old Gods are far chattier with regular humans, and definitely seem to care about the world itself in some way, given that they try to change it instead of just mindlessly rolling over it.

The Virgin Mary with the story of Jesus Christ. Instead of tying the event of Adam and Eve in Eden, BioWare opt to connect the First Sin with Cthulu: The Calling.

No it's not. Andraste's birth wasn't under any special circumstances, she was just allegedly some random woman that the Maker took a shine to. Also, she wasn't a virgin (Mary wasn't either, the original passage just referred to her as a young woman and then it got mistranslated).

The Dalish's Gods concept is borrowed from Hinduism who believe in multiple divines. Some can be identified through their roles in day to day life.

I think this describes every single polytheistic system ever.

Lack the depth and detail of their original source. Barely touch the surface of their original concept. I think BioWare should study theology more. It's doubtful wise to tie the reality of First Sin concept with the fictional Cthulu: The Calling to create entirely new fiction. The nature and the truth about of the First Sin itself is still heavily debated by theology scholars. BioWare's Andrastian religion is nothing but a laughing concept to them. But then again, I guess not many scholars would waste their time arguing the "intelligence" of fictional game religion.

I don't know, Andrastianism seems to make about as much sense as the real world monotheisms that I've seen, and some of its tenets are arguably more excusable due to a lower education/tech level in Thedas than what we have here.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Xilizhra wrote...

Cthulhu: The Calling. Unfortunately, Dragon Age's archdemons and dragon cult story is not as dark and horror as their original idea.

Well, no, because they're not supposed to be Cthulhu. The Old Gods are far chattier with regular humans, and definitely seem to care about the world itself in some way, given that they try to change it instead of just mindlessly rolling over it.

I'm refering to the Sleeping Gods and the singing which is remarkable similar to Chuthulu: The Calling 

Xilizhra wrote...

The Virgin Mary with the story of Jesus Christ. Instead of tying the event of Adam and Eve in Eden, BioWare opt to connect the First Sin with Cthulu: The Calling.

No it's not. Andraste's birth wasn't under any special circumstances, she was just allegedly some random woman that the Maker took a shine to. Also, she wasn't a virgin (Mary wasn't either, the original passage just referred to her as a young woman and then it got mistranslated).

Virgin Mary's birth wasn't under any special circumstances eitheir and she was just an average woman too. The only difference is, it's Jesus Christ who sacrifice himself to cleanse the sin of everyone just like Andraste. That's why I said it's Virgin Mary with the sacrifice story of Jesus Christ. 

Xilizhra wrote...

The Dalish's Gods concept is borrowed from Hinduism who believe in multiple divines. Some can be identified through their roles in day to day life.

I think this describes every single polytheistic system ever.

I doubt BioWare would put more effort to it than already has. Polytheistic study and debate is dead end in real world.

Xilizhra wrote...

Lack the depth and detail of their original source. Barely touch the surface of their original concept. I think BioWare should study theology more. It's doubtful wise to tie the reality of First Sin concept with the fictional Cthulu: The Calling to create entirely new fiction. The nature and the truth about of the First Sin itself is still heavily debated by theology scholars. BioWare's Andrastian religion is nothing but a laughing concept to them. But then again, I guess not many scholars would waste their time arguing the "intelligence" of fictional game religion.

I don't know, Andrastianism seems to make about as much sense as the real world monotheisms that I've seen, and some of its tenets are arguably more excusable due to a lower education/tech level in Thedas than what we have here.

Well, it's lack of supporting narrative ( due to it's vagueness ) either from textual evidences, or archeological findings, or academy research or historical reliable reference from neutral party etc... Even the Sacred Ashes isn't well narrated due to lack of believable supporting evidence. Brother Gentivity's research heavily relies on rumors and unproven theories. Actually there isn't much evidences to support Andrastian belief system worthwhile for academical study. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 22 février 2013 - 02:05 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Please people, the purpose here is to not compare the fictional religions to those that exist in our world. This thread is strictly to discuss the narrative value it brings to the world.

If your narrative experience is increased or diminished because of parallels to real world religions, that is fine, but that's where the analysis should end. I will not be against reporting people who derail this thread will actual religion discussions.

[Cirram55]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
If Bioware is just making it up as they go along (or if they have a "rough concept" on what the bigger answers are) this leads to lore inconsistencies. If they ever have a Big Reveal moment about many of the religions in Thedas, it might quickly turn into an ME3 ending issue, where the fans who have scrutinized every bit of lore start scratching their heads and saying "What? That directly contradicts what you told us here, here and here."

I remember reading somewhere (most likely by Gaider himself) that they do have an overarching story that they're telling, and major answers to major questions (though I don't know what he was referring to). However, they change bits and pieces as they go, because getting to one certain point may not be as easy as they first imagined.

[Fast Jimmy]

Cirram55 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
If Bioware is just making it up as they go along (or if they have a "rough concept" on what the bigger answers are) this leads to lore inconsistencies. If they ever have a Big Reveal moment about many of the religions in Thedas, it might quickly turn into an ME3 ending issue, where the fans who have scrutinized every bit of lore start scratching their heads and saying "What? That directly contradicts what you told us here, here and here."

I remember reading somewhere (most likely by Gaider himself) that they do have an overarching story that they're telling, and major answers to major questions (though I don't know what he was referring to). However, they change bits and pieces as they go, because getting to one certain point may not be as easy as they first imagined.

The writers for the ME team said similar things. And then the ending of ME3 happened and we found out they were just making up their lore on the fly as they went along. 

[TheJediSaint]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Cirram55 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
If Bioware is just making it up as they go along (or if they have a "rough concept" on what the bigger answers are) this leads to lore inconsistencies. If they ever have a Big Reveal moment about many of the religions in Thedas, it might quickly turn into an ME3 ending issue, where the fans who have scrutinized every bit of lore start scratching their heads and saying "What? That directly contradicts what you told us here, here and here."

I remember reading somewhere (most likely by Gaider himself) that they do have an overarching story that they're telling, and major answers to major questions (though I don't know what he was referring to). However, they change bits and pieces as they go, because getting to one certain point may not be as easy as they first imagined.

The writers for the ME team said similar things. And then the ending of ME3 happened and we found out they were just making up their lore on the fly as they went along. 

Dragon Age has a completely seperate development team.  And they spent five years developing the lore before DA:O even came out.