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[Kidd]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Now, imagine for a second that somene said they wanted to kill every single [insert minority group here]. Would you not go apoplectic? I don't understand how you can say these kinds of violent things and think it's alright.

Don't bring real world politics and religion into this. I obviously can't speak on Xil's behalf, but there's nothing in that post that implies to me what you seem to make of it. The Maker is a fictional character in the Dragon Age setting, who may or may not even be fictional in the fictional world (inception!).

[Danny Boy 7]

I think it might be time to move on to part 2 Jimmy

[Kidd]

EntropicAngel wrote...

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Don't bring real world politics and religion into this. I obviously can't speak on Xil's behalf, but there's nothing in that post that implies to me what you seem to make of it. The Maker is a fictional character in the Dragon Age setting, who may or may not even be fictional in the fictional world (inception!).

What I make of it is that she wants to kill an imaginative creature, simply for who they are.

My apologies. It seems I was the one who jumped to assumptive (is that a word?) conclusions. Sensitive topic, this - I figured I'd err on the side of trying to shut down a bad argument before it happened than allowing it to escalate. But it seems I was in error~~

[Dave of Canada]

EntropicAngel wrote...

As a guy who thoroughly enjoyed ME3's ending, turning everyone into mages would be the kind of copout that makes me take a 180 and walk away from Bioware. That's an absolutely horrible, horrible idea.

I'd hate it too, I'd try to stop it on all my characters.

[Daralii]

Dave of Canada wrote...

*cough*

Slightly relevant.

So Gaider is either one of the most brilliant writers of the century, or he's the Damon Lindelof of video games. Either way, I'm excited.

[Pasquale1234]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
One thing I would like to clarify is that I would really, REALLY hope that SOMEONE does know the answers. As in, a real-life person, like a Gaider. If Bioware is just making it up as they go along (or if they have a "rough concept" on what the bigger answers are) this leads to lore inconsistencies. If they ever have a Big Reveal moment about many of the religions in Thedas, it might quickly turn into an ME3 ending issue, where the fans who have scrutinized every bit of lore start scratching their heads and saying "What? That directly contradicts what you told us here, here and here." 

The lore of Thedas' religion is very interesting and effective at drawing us into the narrative, but if there are breadcrumbs to a story trail that winds up contradicting itself in the long run, then that is a big problem. The story of the game itself where such a reveal may or may not happen doesn't need to be thought of or discussed (I know plans change), but determining what happened in events in the past, even the long ancient past, that now shape the world today are important for those who control the history of the franchise's story to know. If only to prevent stepping in it at a later date.

I'm not terribly inclined to hold them to such high standards, for several reasons...

It's always been my understanding that codex entries - which is where we get most of this information - may not be 100% accurate.  Most of them were written by Chantry historians and scholars - a specific individual's interpretations of his/her observations and study.

Where there are inconsistencies between what is presented in-game versus novels, comics, other media - which takes precedence and is considered to be true canon?

Even matters of faith and belief can evolve over time, especially in the face of new discoveries... like the Urn of Sacred Ashes.  If the Warden delivers knowledge of its existence and also delivers a newly discovered artifact to Sister Justine for further study, might there not be some results of this new information that could change Andrastean knowledge and beliefs in some way?  Isn't it possible - perhaps even likely - that other scholars are also engaged in ongoing study that could change the cultural fabric?

Members of the same faith system don't always agree.  Marethari and Merrill, for example, had very different ideas about the desirability of pursuing some some ancient Dalish knowledge.  Leliana espoused beliefs about the Maker that were considered heretical by some.

Would we all be massively disappointed to learn that the origin of the darkspawn is not what the Chantry claims?  Perhaps the more important question is are we, as players, expected to accept these Chantry teachings as truth?  Would that require us to adopt the Andrastean faith?

I think it's.... more fruitful to take it all in the vein of helping us to understand the peoples and cultures of Thedas, and our role in certain events, and maybe that's the best reason for expounding on prevalent religious / belief / faith systems.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Please people, the purpose here is to not compare the fictional religions to those that exist in our world. This thread is strictly to discuss the narrative value it brings to the world.

If your narrative experience is increased or diminished because of parallels to real world religions, that is fine, but that's where the analysis should end. I will not be against reporting people who derail this thread will actual religion discussions.

You have asked for the narrative and world-building characteristics of Religion in the Lore of Thedas and I have given you mine.

BioWare do not create  religion and lore in Thedas. They copy paste the concept from real world religions and they alter it slightly. Both Chaos of Malek and I have given you where this idea comes from. But it's not my point to make such comparison only to discuss the merit of real world religion in fictional setting like Thedas. The point is, BioWare do not originally create Andrastian. They based it on Christianity. Since they're NOT the original creator, what more narrative value do you expect them to bring to us other than what we already know? That some thousand years later a character call [ insert BioWare's fictional name ] ala Charles Darwins found out that human elvove from [ insert Bioware's fictional species ], thus leading to another to world changing event like secularism? I'm sure, you don't want speculation in this discussion. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 22 février 2013 - 03:56 .

[Harle Cerulean]

I'd like to point out that saying Andraste is the leader of her faith is wrong. That's like saying Jesus is the Pope. (Hint, he isn't, and never was.) She's a figure of worship, who, to our best knowledge, was not worshiped until after her death - followed, yes, but not worshiped as essentially a deity in her own right, as the Chantry does.

Accordingly, if she were a mage, it would be rather ironic that the Chantry is so harsh on magic, but it wouldn't be hypocritical. They're following their interpretation of Andraste's words that magic is to serve man. It may well not be what Andraste meant when she said it, but their differing interpretation doesn't make them hypocrites - it's been centuries. Religions, language, and interpretations of old texts all change in that much time.

[LinksOcarina]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

*cough*

Slightly relevant.

As a guy who thoroughly enjoyed ME3's ending, turning everyone into mages would be the kind of copout that makes me take a 180 and walk away from Bioware. That's an absolutely horrible, horrible idea.

Not to mention impossible, considering magic is a sort of "born that way" kind of thng.

You do get a sort of X-Men kind of metaphor with mages now that I think about it...

[TheJediSaint]

EntropicAngel wrote...

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Don't bring real world politics and religion into this. I obviously can't speak on Xil's behalf, but there's nothing in that post that implies to me what you seem to make of it. The Maker is a fictional character in the Dragon Age setting, who may or may not even be fictional in the fictional world (inception!).

What I make of it is that she wants to kill an imaginative creature, simply for who they are.

Xill if far from the only poster on BSN who want's to kill every DA character that offends her.

[LinksOcarina]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Please people, the purpose here is to not compare the fictional religions to those that exist in our world. This thread is strictly to discuss the narrative value it brings to the world.

If your narrative experience is increased or diminished because of parallels to real world religions, that is fine, but that's where the analysis should end. I will not be against reporting people who derail this thread will actual religion discussions.

You have asked for the narrative and world-building characteristics of Religion in the Lore of Thedas and I have given you mine.

BioWare do not create  religion and lore in Thedas. They copy paste the concept from real world religions and they alter it slightly. Both Chaos of Malek and I have given you where this idea comes from. But it's not my point to make such comparison only to discuss the merit of real world religion in fictional setting like Thedas. The point is, BioWare do not originally create Andrastian. They based it on Christianity. Since they're NOT the original creator, what more narrative value do you expect them to bring to us other than what we already know? That some thousand years later a character call [ insert BioWare's fictional name ] ala Charles Darwins found out that human elvove from [ insert Bioware's fictional species ], thus leading to another to world changing event like secularism? I'm sure, you don't want speculation in this discussion. 

Well...how do you create a religion and make it unique then? And why is it relevant if it was copy/pasted from a pastiche of sources, like everything usually is in a fantasy world? 

[Kidd]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

I'd like to point out that saying Andraste is the leader of her faith is wrong. That's like saying Jesus is the Pope. (Hint, he isn't, and never was.) She's a figure of worship, who, to our best knowledge, was not worshiped until after her death - followed, yes, but not worshiped as essentially a deity in her own right, as the Chantry does.

It's been a plaything of mine for a while now to imagine that the entire Andrastian religion was made up by Hessarian. I don't doubt the many records of him being the one who killed her, but it's entirely possible he did so for every intention but to spare her the flame. He could've planned this and then went on to announce himself a changed man, claiming the woman he just killed was holy in retrospect.

Perhaps he is not the source from which every piece of Andrastian scripture is written, but it is almost undeniable that he is in a position of power as the last person to converse with the prophet, not to mention having such a role in her life as he did.

For what purposes this would've been done though, I have no idea. An attempt to spare his country from further attack? The ability to control in some manner the direction the budding religion would take? Did he succeed or fail in his intentions? I don't know.

Or he felt bad for what he was doing and killed the woman to spare her the pain and became a devoted follower of the Maker to repent for his sins. That works too.

[TheJediSaint]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Please people, the purpose here is to not compare the fictional religions to those that exist in our world. This thread is strictly to discuss the narrative value it brings to the world.

If your narrative experience is increased or diminished because of parallels to real world religions, that is fine, but that's where the analysis should end. I will not be against reporting people who derail this thread will actual religion discussions.

You have asked for the narrative and world-building characteristics of Religion in the Lore of Thedas and I have given you mine.

BioWare do not create  religion and lore in Thedas. They copy paste the concept from real world religions and they alter it slightly. Both Chaos of Malek and I have given you where this idea comes from. But it's not my point to make such comparison only to discuss the merit of real world religion in fictional setting like Thedas. The point is, BioWare do not originally create Andrastian. They based it on Christianity. Since they're NOT the original creator, what more narrative value do you expect them to bring to us other than what we already know? That some thousand years later a character call [ insert BioWare's fictional name ] ala Charles Darwins found out that human elvove from [ insert Bioware's fictional species ], thus leading to another to world changing event like secularism? I'm sure, you don't want speculation in this discussion. 

Well...how do you create a religion and make it unique then? And why is it relevant if it was copy/pasted from a pastiche of sources, like everything usually is in a fantasy world? 

There's nothing wrong with deriving a fantasy religion from real world relgion.  Espeically given that Dragon Age is a fantasy setting based on Medival Europe.   What make's the religions in Dragon Age unique is the spin the developers put on them.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 22 février 2013 - 04:58 .

[Dave of Canada]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Not to mention impossible, considering magic is a sort of "born that way" kind of thng.

You do get a sort of X-Men kind of metaphor with mages now that I think about it...

The only thing that's different between mages and non-mages is a connection to the fade, one which could theoretically be established. I'd imagine tearing down the Veil would lead to bad things happening across Thedas.

[Dave of Canada]

EntropicAngel wrote...

The connection to the fade is what gives them mana and the ability to use spells? Color me dubious.

Don't they draw from the fade to cast their abilities? Haven't played DA:O or DA2 in a long while, I thought it was because they had a stronger connection to the fade than others and that's why they can dream and be aware of their presence in the Fade.

I mean, Dwarves barely have any connection to the Fade and they don't have any mages.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 février 2013 - 05:02 .

[TheJediSaint]

Dave of Canada wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Not to mention impossible, considering magic is a sort of "born that way" kind of thng.

You do get a sort of X-Men kind of metaphor with mages now that I think about it...

The only thing that's different between mages and non-mages is a connection to the fade, one which could theoretically be established. I'd imagine tearing down the Veil would lead to bad things happening across Thedas.

I'm pretty sure every human and elf has a connection the the Fade, and probably Qunari too.   With mages, the connection is simply stronger.   How else was Tarohne able to make Templars into abominations in the "Enemies Among Us" quest?

[Fast Jimmy]

If you felt that way about elves you'd be racist, no? So how is it different for a God?

Nietzsche was such a dietist. He was always talking about hate crimes and violence against them.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 22 février 2013 - 05:03 .

[Reznore57]

Yes it's their different connexion to the fade that make mages actual mages.When you cut that link you have a tranquil.
There is also blood magic , blood being a bit like lyrium ,a power source .
Makes me think that life may comes from magic .

[LinksOcarina]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Not to mention impossible, considering magic is a sort of "born that way" kind of thng.

You do get a sort of X-Men kind of metaphor with mages now that I think about it...

The only thing that's different between mages and non-mages is a connection to the fade, one which could theoretically be established. I'd imagine tearing down the Veil would lead to bad things happening across Thedas.

I'm pretty sure every human and elf has a connection the the Fade, and probably Qunari too.   With mages, the connection is simply stronger.   How else was Tarohne able to make Templars into abominations in the "Enemies Among Us" quest?

Anyone can be posessed though.

Being posessed does not make you a magic user. 

[Fast Jimmy]

EntropicAngel wrote...

I thought they were fundamentally different, not just with a stronger connection.

Just looked at the wiki, and it isn't really conclusive.

Being a Mage has something to do with their connection to the Fade, as being made Tranquil is cutting off the connection. There is nothing about the Mage that is "turned off" per se, it is just that connection which is cut. 

The stronger connection to the Fade is what gives Mages their power and also makes them much more susceptible to possession than normal beings, but whether that increased connection is what defines a Mage or is merely a by-product of that person being a Mage is a little ambiguous. 

If a normal person (or dwarf, for that matter) found a way to artificially augment their connection to the Fade, would this allow them to pull the power from there and use it as a Mage would? It is an uncertain question. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 22 février 2013 - 05:10 .