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[TheJediSaint]

LinksOcarina wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Not to mention impossible, considering magic is a sort of "born that way" kind of thng.

You do get a sort of X-Men kind of metaphor with mages now that I think about it...

The only thing that's different between mages and non-mages is a connection to the fade, one which could theoretically be established. I'd imagine tearing down the Veil would lead to bad things happening across Thedas.

I'm pretty sure every human and elf has a connection the the Fade, and probably Qunari too.   With mages, the connection is simply stronger.   How else was Tarohne able to make Templars into abominations in the "Enemies Among Us" quest?

Anyone can be posessed though.

Being posessed does not make you a magic user. 

True, but the point I was trying to make is that possession is possible because most living creatures have a connection to the Fade.  Connection to the Fade is not unique to magic users.  It's a diference of degrees.

[LinksOcarina]

TheJediSaint wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Not to mention impossible, considering magic is a sort of "born that way" kind of thng.

You do get a sort of X-Men kind of metaphor with mages now that I think about it...

The only thing that's different between mages and non-mages is a connection to the fade, one which could theoretically be established. I'd imagine tearing down the Veil would lead to bad things happening across Thedas.

I'm pretty sure every human and elf has a connection the the Fade, and probably Qunari too.   With mages, the connection is simply stronger.   How else was Tarohne able to make Templars into abominations in the "Enemies Among Us" quest?

Anyone can be posessed though.

Being posessed does not make you a magic user. 

True, but the point I was trying to make is that possession is possible because most living creatures have a connection to the Fade.  Connection to the Fade is not unique to magic users.  It's a diference of degrees.

True, but again, its a difference of degrees. Mages have a deeper connection and can manipulate the fade. Non-mages cannot. In a way its both a physical difference and a metaphysical one.

Kind of like...well...midichlorians...

[Kidd]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

If a normal person (or dwarf, for that matter) found a way to artificially augment their connection to the Fade, would this allow them to pull the power from there and use it as a Mage would? It is an uncertain question. 

Certain events in Asunder could possibly imply it's possible, as of now, to make people into mages if the difference between a mage and a non-mage is simply a stronger connection to the Fade.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

True, but it could also be that only Mages have the ability to manipulate the energy from the Fade. And their increased connection to the Fade may just be a by-product of their ability working subtly or subconsciously until the use of that power manifests itself.

If someone was born blind, their eyes cannot process light. People who can process light have stronger eye muscles. But strentghening a blind person's eye muscles would not let them see - the stronger muscles are a by-product of being able to see.

Bad analogy (and possibly not taking into account all the lore, not sure) but I hope it conveys the point.

[Kidd]

Don't worry. It did. =)

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 22 février 2013 - 05:30 .

[Xilizhra]

EntropicAngel wrote...

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Don't bring real world politics and religion into this. I obviously can't speak on Xil's behalf, but there's nothing in that post that implies to me what you seem to make of it. The Maker is a fictional character in the Dragon Age setting, who may or may not even be fictional in the fictional world (inception!).

What I make of it is that she wants to kill an imaginative creature, simply for who they are.

No, it's because of what the Maker's done. According to the Chantry, the Maker was responsible for creating the darkspawn... those beings that, in case you've forgotten, reproduce by gang-rape and bizarre mutiliations, and that doesn't even consider what happens when they go to war. For that alone, he should be called to account, and that's completely ignoring all the other crap that he as a supposedly omnipotent being has allowed to happen, without taking any steps to prevent it, because he's a spiteful, vindictive bastard.

[Reznore57]

According to the Chantry , men are responsible for Darkspawn.
They break into the Maker's house , that's a bit rude.
if you're send to jail because you commited a crime , you can't say it's the victim fault you're being punished.
Now of course the punishment seems really cruel , and not really merciful.
But hey Gods have a reputation to keep , if he only yelled a lot , the story wouldn't be as interesting.

[Herr Uhl]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

If a normal person (or dwarf, for that matter) found a way to artificially augment their connection to the Fade, would this allow them to pull the power from there and use it as a Mage would? It is an uncertain question. 

Certain events in Asunder could possibly imply it's possible, as of now, to make people into mages if the difference between a mage and a non-mage is simply a stronger connection to the Fade.

There is a vast difference between dwarves and normal humans though. Even normal humans go to the fade when they dream. Dwarves do not, and they're unique in that aspect.

[Xilizhra]

Reznore57 wrote...

According to the Chantry , men are responsible for Darkspawn.
They break into the Maker's house , that's a bit rude.
if you're send to jail because you commited a crime , you can't say it's the victim fault you're being punished.
Now of course the punishment seems really cruel , and not really merciful.
But hey Gods have a reputation to keep , if he only yelled a lot , the story wouldn't be as interesting.

This is imbecilic. If the magisters themselves and themselves alone had been punished, it would have been one thing. But they were sent back as monsters who would repeatedly ravage the entire continent for more than a thousand years. The Maker's sense of retribution is utterly insane.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

Does it say anywhere that the Maker is all-powerful? Or all-knowing? I'm not trying to frame an argument, I'm curious if it is ever spelled out in the lore, instead of just assumed.

I can build a house. That doesn't mean that everything that is in is inherently under my control or obeys my whims. Nor would I know exactly what happens if I smack a supporting beam with a sledgehammer.

The Maker could have made the world and afterward had some terrible calamity happen to Him that made Him curse the Tevinter magisters in anger. He may have lost be ability to hear prayers, or to keep demons from the world when this happened. He may have bad no idea how the Darkspawn curse would spread and corrupt others and cause massive suffering. He may be struggling to fix His mistake. Maybe He left the world, but not because He wanted to, but because He HAD to.

And who knows? Maybe even if the Chant is sung from all corners of the world, it actually COULD allow Him to come back and fix everything. Assuming the Maker is just sitting on a throne, pouting, is certainly possible... but if the Maker isn't truly an all-knowing, all-powerful being, then maybe He isn't being quite as big of a d!ck as people are assuming.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 22 février 2013 - 06:24 .

[Xilizhra]

The Maker could have made the world and afterward had some terrible calamity happen to Him that made Him curse the Tevinter magisters in anger. He may have lost be ability to hear prayers, or to keep demons from the world when this happened. He may have bad no idea how the Darkspawn curse would spread and corrupt others and cause massive suffering. He may be struggling to fix His mistake. Maybe He left the world, but not because He wanted to, but because He HAD to.

It's possible, but none of that is what the Chantry says, and we have no evidence for it. Not that we have evidence that the Maker even exists, but, you know.

And who knows? Maybe even if the Chant is sung from all corners of the world, it actually COULD allow Him to come back and fix everything. Assuming the Maker is just sitting on a throne, pouting, is certainly possible... but if the Maker isn't truly an all-knowing, all-powerful being, then maybe He isn't being quite as big of a d!ck as people are assuming.

I don't believe the Maker exists at all, nor will we ever be shown proof of his existence. I'm only referring to the Chantry's system.

[Reznore57]

Well if i remember correctly from the chantry , he created Thedas and the fade.
First he created spirits etc...but wasn't happy with them (something that happens often with gods and their creations...)
They missed a certain spark of creativity (the fade is now mostly a deformed picture of Thedas)
So he created humans etc...

Humans didn't care about him , and followed the Old gods.So they went to the golden city.The maker got really angry.Which if i were a god ,I could relate.
People break into your home , and don't even worship you....
So he created darkspawn as a punishment ( and probably to remind evreyone that He was a God , FFS!)

I suppose he probably went brooding for a long time...saw that still nobody was worshipping him .
He needed a plan B , punishment didn't work .So he decided to help humans via Andraste.
We know Andraste was killed , so after the home invasion , his Bride got burned ...
So he probably though that the taint and darkspawn wasn't so bad after all and just left.

I suppose he's still extremely offended or something.^^

[lil yonce]

^^I don't think the Maker created the Darkspawn. The ancient Tevinter Magisters were said to have used so much lyrium that it turned them into monsters.

From the DA Wiki on Lyrium:

"Mages have additionally been known to suffer physical mutation: The magister lords of the Tevinter Imperium were widely reputed to have been so affected by their years of lyrium use that they could not be recognized by their own kin, nor even as creatures that had once been human.

--From In Pursuit of Knowledge: The Travels of a Chantry Scholar, by Brother Genitivi."

Considering the Magisters used 2/3 of the lyrium in Thedas (I think that's what it was) to breach the Golden City, I don't think Darkspawn were created. I think the original Magisters transformed in appearance before entering the Golden City due to lyrium use,  were cast out by the Maker after entering, and time and tradition has assigned a role to or perhaps overblown the role of the Maker in the creation of the Darkspawn.

Corypheus can quickly make mindless followers by proximity so perhaps the Darkspawn are followers of the Magisters that have lost all of their humanity and do still the bidding of the ancient Magisters in seeking out the Old Gods.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 22 février 2013 - 06:41 .

[Reznore57]

I don't believe the chantry version is the truth either...
I think it's way more complicated ...
But from the chantry teaching it makes sense that their god left ...
Even the darkspawn and the taint makes sense , if you think about how Tevinter enter the golden city...They kill a lot of people to achieve it.
It may be childish but hey you act like monsters I didn't mean to create you like that , but so be it have fun.

[Cirram55]

I wonder why the Maker didn't shape some other stuff out of nowhere, better than humanity, like He supposedly did with the spirits in the Fade. Or if He just couldn't create some good people (and in that case He wouldn't be omnipotent), why didn't He just leave it at that?
He gotta have some serious ego-related issue, if all He does this for is to be worshipped.

[lil yonce]

Cirram55 wrote...

I wonder why the Maker didn't shape some other stuff out of nowhere, better than humanity, like He supposedly did with the spirits in the Fade. Or if He just couldn't create some good people (and in that case He wouldn't be omnipotent), why didn't He just leave it at that?

I suppose it depends on how you define better. According to the Chantry, some spirits became demons and do greater evil than any man could.

He gotta have some serious ego-related issue, if all He does this for is to be worshipped.

Well, why do people decide to have children? I don't think its to be worshiped.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 23 février 2013 - 07:32 .

[Xilizhra]

Well, why do people decide to have children? I don't think its to be worshiped.

Gods seem to do that a lot.

[sirus1988]

I would indeed like to learn more about the Old Gods' decend. Hopefully Bioware will give us more information about it in DA3.

[Kidd]

Herr Uhl wrote...

There is a vast difference between dwarves and normal humans though. Even normal humans go to the fade when they dream. Dwarves do not, and they're unique in that aspect.

True. I wonder however if dwarves are actually incapable of being mages. Surface dwarves seem to develop the same weakness to lyrium humans and elves have as they stay under the skies. This might indicate that surface dwarves could establish a connection to the Fade given enough time - possibly generations.

As of now, that's just theorycrafting though =)

Youth4Ever wrote...

Considering the Magisters used 2/3 of the lyrium in Thedas (I think that's what it was) to breach the Golden City, I don't think Darkspawn were created. I think the original Magisters transformed in appearance before entering the Golden City due to lyrium use,  were cast out by the Maker after entering, and time and tradition has assigned a role to or perhaps overblown the role of the Maker in the creation of the Darkspawn.

Makes one wonder what the taint really is, in that case. Is it magic in its purest form? The "soul" of magic, while lyrium is its "body?" Or is it the smoke to magic's fire?

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 22 février 2013 - 07:27 .

[lil yonce]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, why do people decide to have children? I don't think its to be worshiped.

Gods seem to do that a lot.

Yes, some do, but the monotheistic and more personal Gods don't seem to do that.

[Dabrikishaw]

Xilizhra wrote...

I know that many people want things to stay ambiguous on religion. I do not, either in-game or IRL. I want to tear open the world and learn everything I can about as much as I can, especially the truth behind the world of Thedas... and our own, if possible. Faith is insufficient, uncertainty is a constant irritant.

Also, if the Maker does exist, I really want to kill the bastard.

[Cirram55]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...
True. I wonder however if dwarves are actually incapable of being mages. Surface dwarves seem to develop the same weakness to lyrium humans and elves have as they stay under the skies. This might indicate that surface dwarves could establish a connection to the Fade given enough time - possibly generations.

Mmh, was it ever stated anywhere whether in previous Ages surface dwarves were as common as in the Dragon Age? 'Cause surface dwarves tend to stay out of Orzammar for the most part of their lives, and have children out of the underground kingdom.
I figure that, say, a line of surface dwarves, dated something like 400 years, would have already developed a fairly relevant weakness to lyrium in the Dragon Age and, maybe as a consequence, those dwarves could have a stronger connection to the Fade.
Would this make sense?

[KingsTiger]

See, I always interpreted the "the Stone lives beneath Orlais" as implying that there's some hidden thaig still kicking beneath Orlais-maybe they don't have a connection to the outside except through the deep roads, maybe they've sealed themselves out of fear, I don't know, but I don't think it's mystical. "The Stone" always seemed more like a way the Dwarves express a sort of... earth-mother, but sans the anthropomorphization (say that five times fast) that implies. The source and end destination of the Dwarven circle of life. So, if the Stone lives on beneath Orlais, there must be Dwarves there with it.
At least, that's my take on it.

Modifié par KingsTiger, 22 février 2013 - 08:25 .