307 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, why do people decide to have children? I don't think its to be worshiped.

Gods seem to do that a lot.

Yes, some do, but the monotheistic and more personal Gods don't seem to do that.

Actually, they're the ones who seem to do it almost universally, creating people who have to love them in a certain way or face terrible punishment.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

EntropicAngel wrote...

You know, people can be genetically modified to have magical powers rather than it being inherent.

Creating Collectors from Protheans?

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Xilizhra wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, why do people decide to have children? I don't think its to be worshiped.

Gods seem to do that a lot.

Yes, some do, but the monotheistic and more personal Gods don't seem to do that.

Actually, they're the ones who seem to do it almost universally, creating people who have to love them in a certain way or face terrible punishment.

You did it wrong. India and Greece prove otherwise.

[Dave of Canada]

This conversation--like all of those involving mages--is getting too dangerously close to "I HATE RELIGION".

[lil yonce]

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, they're the ones who seem to do it almost universally, creating people who have to love them in a certain way or face terrible punishment.

But they don't typically do those things with only the intent to be worshiped or because they're picky about how they want to be worshiped. Usually to another end such as setting up a utopia as in Abrahamic religions.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 22 février 2013 - 09:09 .

[Cirram55]

Legatus Arianus wrote...
You did it wrong. India and Greece prove otherwise.

Yet none of them are monotheistic beliefs. But that was not the point.

To stay on topic, I'd say that the writers have probably been too vague about the Maker's motivations, rather than the Maker's existence or whatever (that the latter be left in doubt, I like). This could have been addressed more specifically in another chant of the Chant of Light or something of the sort, just to make things clearer.

[lil yonce]

EntropicAngel wrote...

This is an interesting point: what did Bioware design the Maker as?

I think the Maker is All-Powerful, but I don't think He is in control of the world. The Chant of Light says he created all things but he chose to give control of the material world to man -- Free Will -- and it appears man gave control of the world to evil -- The Old Gods -- in the First Sin. The Chant also has many verses that read the world is consumed in Darkness or Blackness and that the Maker is Light. If you believe the Old Gods are the Maker's first children, Dumat is associated with Blackness and Sin. Just my opinion.

[lil yonce]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Man, Jimmy. Reading this I can't help but draw comparisions, because if you change a few words--

*sigh* fine, I won't go there.

Its a legitimate comparison, certainly. The New Testament flatout states in 1 John 5:19, "We know we are the Children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the Evil One." I don't know if a line like this exists in the Chant, but I wouldn't be surprised if so.

[XX-Pyro]

I don't understand, why does it matter if the Chant of Light/Andrastian faith is based off of Catholicism?

[Xilizhra]

This conversation--like all of those involving mages--is getting too dangerously close to "I HATE RELIGION".

There's a major difference between hating the very concept of religion, which is futile because religion is simply a side effect of how the human psyche works and even atheists believe in things without empirical evidence, and having issues with specific religions and how they've set up their own gods. I don't believe anyone here has done the former.

You did it wrong. India and Greece prove otherwise.

I'm not saying that only monotheistic gods are self-absorbed jerks; plenty of polytheistic ones are too.

But they don't typically do those things with only the intent to be worshiped or because they're picky about how they want to be worshiped. Usually to another end such as setting up a utopia as in Abrahamic religions.

A utopia that they were perfectly capable of setting up to begin with anyway.

[lil yonce]

[quote]EntropicAngel wrote...

As well as a number of times calling God light.

John 1:5 or 7 or so..."In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. And the Light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not."[/quote]

I really would love to see the complete Chant or at least read more of it. From the DA Wiki -- Chant of Light Verses.

Benedictions 4:11 -- "Blessed are the righteous, the lights in the shadow. In their blood the Maker's will is written."

Transfigurations 10 -- "But the one who repents, who has faith Unshaken by the darkness of the world, And boasts not, nor gloats Over the misfortunes of the weak, but takes delight In the Maker's law and creations, she shall know The peace of the Maker's benediction.The Light shall lead her safely For she who trusts in the Maker, fire is her water. As the moth sees light and goes toward flame, She should see fire and go towards Light. The Veil holds no uncertainty for her, And she will know no fear of death, for the Maker Shall be her beacon and her shield, her foundation and her sword."

Trials 1:10 -- "Maker, though the darkness comes upon me, I shall embrace the light."

Trials 1:14 -- Though all before me is shadow, Yet shall the Maker be my guide. I shall not be left to wander the drifting roads of the Beyond. For there is no darkness in the Maker's Light"

[quote]Or the scripture, can't remember where, "All good gifts cometh down from the Father of Lights..."[/quote]
James 1:17.[/quote] 

And in the DA universe magic is described as a gift in the Chant and that is often contray to Chantry sentiment.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 23 février 2013 - 07:34 .

[Xilizhra]

This is a very very different statement, and one that makes sense: Power corrupts, no?

No. Power itself doesn't corrupt; it takes a personality prone to corruption to become corrupt. Power opens options for corruption, and sometimes corrupt people find it easier to take power, but power itself does not corrupt.

Also, saying that magic irrevocably leads to sin is no different from saying that it is one, really.

[lil yonce]

Xilizhra wrote...

A utopia that they were perfectly capable of setting up to begin with anyway.

But they have a problem. They can't set up a utopia with evil people included. There has to be a way to get rid of those individuals.

[Dave of Canada]

Youth4Ever wrote...

And in the DA universe magic is described as a gift in the Chant and that is often contray to Chantry sentiment.

Not really, Mages are treated rather well by society all things considering.

[Xilizhra]

I would argue that it DOES, that people who are NOT prone to corruption will take the way that involves corruption if it's simple and in front of them.

Or, conversely, that absolutely everyone is prone to corruption.

Being a mage, even knowing blood magic, only provides the capability to mind control people for selfish ends, not the desire to do so. One only sees corrupt deeds from those who are capable of performing them, and hence misses the corruption in the hearts of the powerless who can't act on their feelings.

And for your second statement, I disagree. If it meant that, they would have said that. They didn't.

They may not have thought it through. But the Chantry's system of magic and sin is, in general, foolishly arbitrary.

But they have a problem. They can't set up a utopia with evil people
included. There has to be a way to get rid of those individuals.

They can, with ease: simply alter the minds of the evil people. If that's impossible for some reason, give reasons for them to change their own minds, and do it directly and without hesitation.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 22 février 2013 - 10:12 .

[Nerevar-as]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No. Power itself doesn't corrupt; it takes a personality prone to corruption to become corrupt. Power opens options for corruption, and sometimes corrupt people find it easier to take power, but power itself does not corrupt.

Also, saying that magic irrevocably leads to sin is no different from saying that it is one, really.

I would argue that it DOES, that people who are NOT prone to corruption will take the way that involves corruption if it's simple and in front of them.

Or, conversely, that absolutely everyone is prone to corruption.

And for your second statement, I disagree. If it meant that, they would have said that. They didn't.

Adam Jensen made the point that he hadn´t  been corrupted by the extra power to vouch for Sarif´s ending if you played non-lethal.

I´d say ambitious people are more likely to be corrupted, and those are the ones who normally seek out power. So of course it would look like power corrupts. Would a different person who gets power make the same choices?

[Fast Jimmy]

I stop for a few hours to actually do work and see what happens?


Seriously guys - last warning. Any quotes of actual religious material or comparisons to real life religion is going to be reported.

Talk about the religions of Thedas all you want - do NOT bring actual real life theology into this.

[Plaintiff]

EntropicAngel wrote...

And for your second statement, I disagree. If it meant that, they would have said that. They didn't.

If what they meant was that "magic sometimes leads to sin, but also doesn't a lot of the time" then they would've said that.

What they don't say is just as important as what they do say and what they don't say, at any point, is that magic can easily be used for good or even simply be a neutral force. These possibilities are never acknowledged by the Chantry, at least not in any material we've seen in-game.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 22 février 2013 - 10:23 .

[lil yonce]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Not really, Mages are treated rather well by society all things considering.

KC Meredith refers to magic a curse. "I have sympathy for mages, they suffer a terrible curse..." But its not a curse. Its a gift. And viewing it as a curse skews her view of mages.