307 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

If the monkey died due to unlucky circumstances, nobody would be at fault. If the person who "rescued" the monkey genuinely cared about its wellbeing, they would have taken it to an animal preserve or a zoo that can simulate its natural environment and give it the proper care it needs. Keeping it as their personal pet is a wrong action, regardless of how the monkey was obtained.

Justice, is that you?

House cats like Ser Pounce-A-Lot are members of a species that has been completely domesticated for centuries. The house is their natural habitat. It's not a comparable situation at all, unless Ser Pounce-A-Lot was a lion cub or some other species of wild cat.

[Nerevar-as]

Fast Jimmy wrote...



What if the monkey's parents were killed in a terrible forest fire and, otherwise, the monkey would have died? Is that still wrong? Right and wrong are very slippery slopes to talk about... especially when talking about freedom and monkeys. 

I´d say there´s a difference between taking someone away from his/her parents, and adopting someone without them.

[Clover Rider]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

If the monkey died due to unlucky circumstances, nobody would be at fault. If the person who "rescued" the monkey genuinely cared about its wellbeing, they would have taken it to an animal preserve or a zoo that can simulate its natural environment and give it the proper care it needs. Keeping it as their personal pet is a wrong action, regardless of how the monkey was obtained.

Then you are saying owning a pet is morally wrong. Because every pet imaginable is a direct descendent of a once wild breed.

...what am I doing?

Okay, let's get back on focus here... who wants to talk about the possibility that the Archdemons control of the Darkspawn may be a form of blood magic? That hearing "singing" may be analogous to what a subject who undergoes blood magic control feels? This can be possibly upheld by the experience Hawke has in DA2 where the prostitute puts him under blood magic and a quiet ringing is heard...?

I always thought the Archdemons and Darkspawn were some kind of high level blood magic.

[Xilizhra]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No, it's because of what the Maker's done. According to the Chantry, the Maker was responsible for creating the darkspawn... those beings that, in case you've forgotten, reproduce by gang-rape and bizarre mutiliations, and that doesn't even consider what happens when they go to war. For that alone, he should be called to account, and that's completely ignoring all the other crap that he as a supposedly omnipotent being has allowed to happen, without taking any steps to prevent it, because he's a spiteful, vindictive bastard.

The bolded/italicized is key. Take anything the Chantry claims with a grain of salt. We don't know anything about the Maker aside from what the Chantry teaches, and a lot of what they teach is based on what they interpret the Chant of Light to mean.

Which doesn't mean they're correct. Their use of "maleficar" to only refer to blood mages is a case in point, as maleficar is an old Tevinter word that simply means "one who is wicked". And thus, Templars like Alrik can appropriately be deemed maleficar.

The trouble is that the Chantry is basically the only reason to believe in the Maker at all; take away their own beliefs, and all you have is the Chant of Light, which has already been heavily edited by the Chantry... and in that case, what makes Andraste any more trustworthy?

[Fast Jimmy]

Youth4Ever wrote...

I think all magic truly used for the Maker's name is acceptable. Even blood magic, I would say. The Chant of Light never says magic of any kind is evil -- only that it can be used by the evil.

But what can be said is truly done in the Maker's name? Sister Patriece murdered, tortured and manipulated to prevent those loyal to the Maker from swaying to the heretic Qun. The tools that she used were not blood magic, but that doesn't make her methods and intentions far outside the scope of what the Chant dictates as right. 

That makes things incredibly difficult. If blood magic can be used for good, but interceding to prevent others from turning from the Maker is bad, how can there be any system of rules or tenets?

[Reznore57]

I think it will be interesting to see if gods (old god/maker/dalish gods ) ever come into play.
I'm not sure i would want that , but everything seems to show that something big happened to Thedas.

Like the veil wasn't always there ...dragons were a big part of the universe...
The elven kingdom were destroyed , it's also possible a whole generation of dwarves and culture/worship have been lost ( lost thaig)...

I think with magic ...the line can be kept in blur...is it divine?Is it simply magic?
Something Like we saw with the sacred ashes.

I'm sure a sort of cataclysm happened at some point in Thedas , I just wonder if some gods were involved or "mortals" ( I imagine if Thedas and the fade used to be one , what we call mortals would be very different type of being) pushed the world to its limits ("magic for everyone yeah! oups") and decided to change things.

[Pasquale1234]

Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him.
Foul and corrupt are they
Who have taken His gift
And turned it against His children.
They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones.
They shall find no rest in this world
Or beyond.
-Transfigurations 1:2

[Plaintiff]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Then you are saying owning a pet is morally wrong. Because every pet imaginable is a direct descendent of a once wild breed.

No. The original domestication of the species might have been morally questionable, but it's too late to do anything about it. The native habitat of any domesticated species is the home and releasing them now would only cause untold harm to native animal populations.

But I'll point out that even domesticated animals like puppies and kittens need to stay with their parents until they reach a certain age, and conscientious breeders will not allow the buyer to take the animal home until it is fit. Pet stores and thoughtless people who take a young animal away from its parents too early should be condemned.

Okay, let's get back on focus here... who wants to talk about the possibility that the Archdemons control of the Darkspawn may be a form of blood magic? That hearing "singing" may be analogous to what a subject who undergoes blood magic control feels? This can be possibly upheld by the experience Hawke has in DA2 where the prostitute puts him under blood magic and a quiet ringing is heard...?

I think you might be reaching a bit. There's no confirmation that the noise Hawke hears is even diegetic.

[The Hierophant]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No, it's because of what the Maker's done. According to the Chantry, the Maker was responsible for creating the darkspawn... those beings that, in case you've forgotten, reproduce by gang-rape and bizarre mutiliations, and that doesn't even consider what happens when they go to war. For that alone, he should be called to account, and that's completely ignoring all the other crap that he as a supposedly omnipotent being has allowed to happen, without taking any steps to prevent it, because he's a spiteful, vindictive bastard.

The bolded/italicized is key. Take anything the Chantry claims with a grain of salt. We don't know anything about the Maker aside from what the Chantry teaches, and a lot of what they teach is based on what they interpret the Chant of Light to mean.

Which doesn't mean they're correct. Their use of "maleficar" to only refer to blood mages is a case in point, as maleficar is an old Tevinter word that simply means "one who is wicked". And thus, Templars like Alrik can appropriately be deemed maleficar.

The trouble is that the Chantry is basically the only reason to believe in the Maker at all; take away their own beliefs, and all you have is the Chant of Light, which has already been heavily edited by the Chantry... and in that case, what makes Andraste any more trustworthy?

Wasn't the CoL created a hundred years after Andraste's death?

[lil yonce]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

But what can be said is truly done in the Maker's name? Sister Patriece murdered, tortured and manipulated to prevent those loyal to the Maker from swaying to the heretic Qun. The tools that she used were not blood magic, but that doesn't make her methods and intentions far outside the scope of what the Chant dictates as right.

Sister Petrice is not who I had in mind. The Chant defines the Maker as Light. As being righteous. Just. A Peacekeeper. What Sister Petrice attempted was none of those things.

That makes things incredibly difficult. If blood magic can be used for good, but interceding to prevent others from turning from the Maker is bad, how can there be any system of rules or tenets?

Its one thing to spread awareness of the Chant of Light. Its another to force it on people. Ultimately, the Maker gave his Children free will. Its a personal choice in the end to believe.

I think Andraste used blood magic for good or in the Maker's name when she gave Glandivalis to Shartan. She was a fighting a very corrupt Imperium.

[Fast Jimmy]

Plaintiff wrote...

Okay, let's get back on focus here... who wants to talk about the possibility that the Archdemons control of the Darkspawn may be a form of blood magic? That hearing "singing" may be analogous to what a subject who undergoes blood magic control feels? This can be possibly upheld by the experience Hawke has in DA2 where the prostitute puts him under blood magic and a quiet ringing is heard...?

I think you might be reaching a bit. There's no confirmation that the noise Hawke hears is even diegetic.

True, but if the lore tells us that the Old Gods were the ones who taught the magisters blood magic and that the they become corrupted in the presence of Darkspawn, would that not indicate that it is a possibility that the Archdemons possss blod magic in such a form that it can control all the Darkspawn through the connection of the taint?

[TEWR]

Fast Jimmy wrote...


But what can be said is truly done in the Maker's name? Sister Patriece murdered, tortured and manipulated to prevent those loyal to the Maker from swaying to the heretic Qun. The tools that she used were not blood magic, but that doesn't make her methods and intentions far outside the scope of what the Chant dictates as right. 

That makes things incredibly difficult. If blood magic can be used for good, but interceding to prevent others from turning from the Maker is bad, how can there be any system of rules or tenets?

Indeed, using anything and claiming it's in the Maker's name is a slippery slope. It cuts both ways. The real thing shouldn't be "In the Maker's name" but rather "the betterment of society as a whole for everyone."

Which can still be abused by the likes of Petrice, but it's a bit more clear I guess.

[Plaintiff]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

House cats like Ser Pounce-A-Lot are members of a species that has been completely domesticated for centuries. The house is their natural habitat. It's not a comparable situation at all, unless Ser Pounce-A-Lot was a lion cub or some other species of wild cat.

Bullskat. Your typical house cat, if allowed outside, will roam and roam and roam. Being trapped like that is not natural for them in the slightest.

Same for a bird, for that matter (far more so, actually). Or a dog.

Being capable of living outside does not make it their natural habitat. Rabbits thrive in Australia, to the detriment of native species, but that doesn't make it their natural habitat. Similarly, the monkey might be more than capable of surviving at IKEA, living in a drawer and stealing packets of swedish fish, but that doesn't make it okay to leave it there.

Allowing a domestic animal like a cat or dog to roam around is absolutely wrong, not just because it will come to harm (although that is a possibility), but because it may also cause harm to native wildlife whose natural habitat it is invading.

To get back to the issue this was initially a metaphor for: it doesn't matter if mages are treated well in the Circle, or if they do better in the Circle than they do in "the wild" as apostates. Separating them from their families, especially at such a young age, is wrong.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 22 février 2013 - 11:16 .

[lil yonce]

Xilizhra wrote...

The trouble is that the Chantry is basically the only reason to believe in the Maker at all; take away their own beliefs, and all you have is the Chant of Light, which has already been heavily edited by the Chantry... and in that case, what makes Andraste any more trustworthy?

I know the Chantry has stricken verses from the Chant, but has it been that heavily edited?

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 22 février 2013 - 11:13 .

[TEWR]

The Hierophant wrote...

Wasn't the CoL created a hundred years after Andraste's death?

Parts of it. Some of it was written by Andraste herself, IIRC. Others were written after her death (Maferath) and others still were written long after her death I believe.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 février 2013 - 11:15 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

But what can be said is truly done in the Maker's name? Sister Patriece murdered, tortured and manipulated to prevent those loyal to the Maker from swaying to the heretic Qun. The tools that she used were not blood magic, but that doesn't make her methods and intentions far outside the scope of what the Chant dictates as right.

Sister Petrice is not who I had in mind. The Chant defines the Maker as Light. As being righteous. Just. A Peacekeeper. What Sister Petrice attempted was none of those things.

That makes things incredibly difficult. If blood magic can be used for good, but interceding to prevent others from turning from the Maker is bad, how can there be any system of rules or tenets?

Its one thing to spread awareness of the Chant of Light. Its another to force it on people. Ultimately, the Maker gave his Children free will. Its a personal choice in the end to believe.

But Sister Patriece was not forcing anyone to believe in the Chant. She was strictly removing those who would turn the faithful away from the Maker.

If the straight Chant of Light can be believed, the Maker gets pretty ticked off when people worship other gods - after all, the Blight is a result of following the Old Gods. If Sister Patriece's actions prevented the Maker from cursing all of Kirkwall with something equal to or greater than the Blight for turning away from him, wouldn't her methods have been worth it?

The problem is, we don't know if that's what would have happened. Or if that's why the Blight was released in the first place.

So it becomes very tricky to say doing anything that is the unknowable will of the Maker is an automatic pass on any dubious activity like blood magic. Because it is very open to interpretation - which led to Mages being put into Circles in the first place... an interpretation of doing the will outlined by the Maker through the Chant.

[The Hierophant]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Wasn't the CoL created a hundred years after Andraste's death?

Parts of it. Some of it was written by Andraste herself, IIRC. Others were written after her death (Maferath) and others still were written long after her death I believe.

Thanks for the correction.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 22 février 2013 - 11:21 .

[TEWR]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Corypheus can quickly make mindless followers by proximity

Only to those that actually bear the Taint. Darkspawn, Ghouls, and Grey Wardens. And there's no evidence to suggest Corypheus was the first Darkspawn in existence. The first Awakened Darkspawn, sure, but that's an entirely different thing altogether.

The Hierophant wrote...

Thanks for the correction.

I forgot to mention another thing. It should be noted that parts of it were possibly written during Andraste's lifetime, but not by Andraste herself. Shartan, for example.

And I really want to hear more about Shartan's Canticle. We only have one minor bit of that.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 février 2013 - 11:44 .

[lil yonce]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

But Sister Patriece was not forcing anyone to believe in the Chant. She was strictly removing those who would turn the faithful away from the Maker.

She'd still be forcing belief on those who chose not to believe.

If the straight Chant of Light can be believed, the Maker gets pretty ticked off when people worship other gods - after all, the Blight is a result of following the Old Gods.

If you believe the Maker created the Darkspawn. I don't and I don't think Threnodies reads that way. Creating evil doesn't fit the Maker's described character either.

If Sister Patriece's actions prevented the Maker from cursing all of Kirkwall with something equal to or greater than the Blight for turning away from him, wouldn't her methods have been worth it?

The Maker is righteous. Just. A light. A peacekeeper. Not envious. Jealous but not envious. Petrice's methods would not be acceptable to the Maker because they are against everything He is. Murder. lying, etc. I don't think He would bring a curse to Kirkwall because Petrice of all people didn't sway them back to worship of Him.

So it becomes very tricky to say doing anything that is the unknowable will of the Maker...

I don't think His will is unknowable. The Chant lays it out. It tells you who the Maker is and why He is the way He is. If the Maker is Just and Righteous, He would not approve of Petrice's actions.

...is an automatic pass on any dubious activity like blood magic. Because it is very open to interpretation - which led to Mages being put into Circles in the first place... an interpretation of doing the will outlined by the Maker through the Chant.

Its not an automatic pass. The Maker is not evil. If you are doing evil, your actions are not done in the Maker's name. Like Meredith. She believes she is a faithful servant of the Maker, but her methods as KC and her opinions on magic and mages are contradictory to the Chant of Light -- the Maker's word.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 22 février 2013 - 11:58 .

[lil yonce]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Only to those that actually bear the Taint. Darkspawn, Ghouls, and Grey Wardens. And there's no evidence to suggest Corypheus was the first Darkspawn in existence. The first Awakened Darkspawn, sure, but that's an entirely different thing altogether.

The Carta Dwares in Legacy bore the Taint?

[TEWR]

Youth4Ever wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Only to those that actually bear the Taint. Darkspawn, Ghouls, and Grey Wardens. And there's no evidence to suggest Corypheus was the first Darkspawn in existence. The first Awakened Darkspawn, sure, but that's an entirely different thing altogether.

The Carta Dwares in Legacy bore the Taint?

They did. They drank Darkspawn blood so they could hear Corypheus. The first ones did it at the urging of Janeka, who then convinced others to follow suit.

At least that's how I took it. I know Gerav says they drank Darkspawn blood and all of the Carta Dwarves have the milky eyes that Ghouls have and that Janeka was using the Carta for "her goals". The actual sequence of events is something I'm unsure of, but I know for a fact that the Carta Dwarves were tainted.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 février 2013 - 11:57 .

[Fast Jimmy]

The Maker s righteous. Just. A light. A peacekeeper. Not envious. Jealous but not envious. Petrice's methods would not be acceptable to the Maker because they are against everything he is. Murder. lying, etc. I don't think He would bring a curse to Kirkwall because Petrice of all people didn't sway them back to worship of Him.

Yet he has no problem sending his bride and her army to carve a bloody swath through the Tevinter imperium? Sure, the magisters were corrupt, but unleashing droughts and crushing cities... thousands, tens of thousands, HUNDREDS of thousands all died. Men, women and children. You cannot lead a war that crosses half a continent and have it not be so. Was Andraste doing the Maker's will then? If so, He seems like a "means justify the ends" kind of guy when it comes to death and suffering.

[lil yonce]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

They did. They drank Darkspawn blood so they could hear Corypheus. The first ones did it at the urging of Janeka, who then convinced others to follow suit.

Chain reaction? Then the same thing or a similar thing could have happened leading up to the First Blight on a greater scale?

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 23 février 2013 - 12:04 .