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[TEWR]

Youth4Ever wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

They did. They drank Darkspawn blood so they could hear Corypheus. The first ones did it at the urging of Janeka, who then convinced others to follow suit.

Chain reaction? Then the same thing or a similar things could have happened leading up to the First Blight on a greater scale?

I don't see how. Janeka's a Grey Warden. Unless you're trying to say that Grey Wardens have existed for all time -- which isn't the case -- then the logistics don't allow for the Darkspawn to have been bred in such force to warrant the First Blight's destructive force.

We know Corypheus is an Awakened Darkspawn, a being incapable of hearing the Call of the Old Gods. It's even surmised that he might not even be a Darkspawn at all, but something so twisted by the Taint to be a new being entirely.

The Chantry claims that when the Magisters invaded the Golden City, they fled underground and shortly afterwards found the Old God Dumat. Now, there's a massive logistics issue at work. 

1) The Magisters, who by Archie Archibold and Corypheus are Awakened, are incapable of hearing the Call of the Old Gods which serves as a beacon for the mindless Darkspawn. At the same time, this inability to hear it renders them immune to an Archdemon's control.
2) The Magisters would not have been able to evade an entire Empire that spanned the entire continent and had thaigs all over the place. People would notice.
3) Even if they did find Dumat, they wouldn't have enough forces to destroy an Empire or two immediately so, despite how the Chantry claims "Magisters invaded, went underground, immediately discovered Dumat, First Blight began immediately".
4) They also wouldn't attack the Empire they were allies with at the time since they're still sentient/sapient.

There's far more evidence to suggest the Primeval Thaig is the source of the first Darkspawn. And the PT may or may not be tied to the "Golden" City. Who knows?

EDIT: Also, I edited my post to add this:

At least that's how I took it. I know Gerav says they drank Darkspawn blood and all of the Carta Dwarves have the milky eyes that Ghouls have and that Janeka was using the Carta for "her goals". The actual sequence of events is something I'm unsure of, but I know for a fact that the Carta Dwarves were tainted just like the Darkspawn and Grey Wardens are.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 février 2013 - 12:07 .

[lil yonce]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Yet he has no problem sending his bride and her army to carve a bloody swath through the Tevinter imperium?

He has no problem ridding the world of evil. The Imperium was a hotbed of Sin. Pride, greed, envy, wrath, blasphemy, the perversion of blood magic and slavery. Practitioners of human sacrifice etc.

Sure, the magisters were corrupt, but unleashing droughts and crushing cities... thousands, tens of thousands, HUNDREDS of thousands all died. Men, women and children. You cannot lead a war that crosses half a continent and have it not be so. Was Andraste doing the Maker's will then? If so, He seems like a "means justify the ends" kind of guy when it comes to death and suffering.

It was necessary. Those men and women chose to defend a very vile and morally bankrupt Imperium. They protected it in fighting Andraste and her armies.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

And the children who grew up in a city under the imperium that starved to death under a divine drought? What was their crime and complicit behavior in this?

[TEWR]

As an aside Fast Jimmy, for days I've wanted to make a certain parody of your Let's Talk About threads. It's just been begging me to make it.

Do I have the blessing of the originator of this thread series to make such?

[lil yonce]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't see how. Janeka's a Grey Warden. Unless you're trying to say that Grey Wardens have existed for all time -- which isn't the case -- then the logistics don't allow for the Darkspawn to have been bred in such force to warrant the First Blight's destructive force.

Perhaps followers drank blood of a Magister?

We know Corypheus is an Awakened Darkspawn, a being incapable of hearing the Call of the Old Gods. It's even surmised that he might not even be a Darkspawn at all, but something so twisted by the Taint to be a new being entirely.

If the Taint-Call originated with Corypheus he might simply be considered an original and not something else.

The Chantry claims that when the Magisters invaded the Golden City, they fled underground and shortly afterwards found the Old God Dumat. Now, there's a massive logistics issue at work.

I don't take that verse or canticle literally.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 23 février 2013 - 02:04 .

[TEWR]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Perhaps followers drank blood of a Magister?

I doubt it. By the sound of things, it seems that Corypheus and his drinking buddies did this waltz through the City in secret amongst themselves.

I don't take that verse or canticle literally.

Neither do I, but the people of Thedas do -- Chantry scholars/historians/priests especially.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 février 2013 - 12:13 .

[lil yonce]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

And the children who grew up in a city under the imperium that starved to death under a divine drought? What was their crime and complicit behavior in this?

Its part of judgement of the Imperium. That's it. Similar to the Plagues of Egypt. The killing of every first born.

[TEWR]

I suppose one could be under the impression that the Maker would raise the innocents who died to be with Him wherever he went -- since he abandoned the Black City -- and condemn the wicked to the abyss of the Void.

[lil yonce]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I doubt it. By the sound of things, it seems that Corypheus and his drinking buddies did this waltz through the City in secret amongst themselves.

I mean at a later date. Corypheus was free for a a time.

Neither do I, but the people of Thedas do -- Chantry scholars/historians/priests especially.

Brother Genitivi doesn't appear to.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 23 février 2013 - 12:17 .

[Fast Jimmy]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

As an aside Fast Jimmy, for days I've wanted to make a certain parody of your Let's Talk About threads. It's just been begging me to make it.

Do I have the blessing of the originator of this thread series to make such?

Lol You do.

However, I will strike down with great vengeance and furious anger those who would steal my "Howdy do" opening line. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 23 février 2013 - 12:20 .

[Xilizhra]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

And the children who grew up in a city under the imperium that starved to death under a divine drought? What was their crime and complicit behavior in this?

Its part of judgement of the Imperium. That's it. Similar to the Plagues of Egypt. The killing of every first born.

Simply put, it's mass murder and is grounds to refer to whomever would commit such a thing as a paragon of true evil.

[The Hierophant]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Thanks for the correction.

I forgot to mention another thing. It should be noted that parts of it were possibly written during Andraste's lifetime, but not by Andraste herself. Shartan, for example.

And I really want to hear more about Shartan's Canticle. We only have one minor bit of that.

Same here, but i wouldn't be surprised if Shartan was the real leader of the rebellion or that Andraste was a mage. 

[lil yonce]

Xilizhra wrote...

Simply put, it's mass murder and is grounds to refer to whomever would commit such a thing as a paragon of true evil.

So the Imperium should be allowed to carry on as they have? There should be no judgement? No justice for the hundreds of thouands, the generations of slaves chained to the Imperium? No change at all because one generation of children will die? The Tevinters could have prevented it by freeing their slaves. They wouldn't do it.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 23 février 2013 - 12:25 .

[TEWR]

Youth4Ever wrote...

I mean at a later date. Corypheus was free for a a time.

His statements seem to imply that he hasn't been in Tevinter since his little sojourn through the City, if his desire to go to the first acolyte is to be taken as any indication. If followers of Dumat drank his blood, he would remember that -- as he can remember details from Old Tevinter -- and know he's met with the first acolyte.

It is known that the Wardens caught him immediately after the First Blight after seeing him command lesser Darkspawn, but that's about it. 

Brother Genitivi doesn't appear to.

What did he say on the matter again?

[Xilizhra]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Simply put, it's mass murder and is grounds to refer to whomever would commit such a thing as a paragon of true evil.

So the Imperium should be allowed to carry on as they have? There should be no judgement? No justice for the hundreds of thouands, the generations of slaves chained to the Imperium? No change at all because one generation of children will die? The Tevinters could have prevented it by freeing their slaves. They wouldn't do it.

The Imperium did carry on as it had always done. The "judgment" did nothing at all to Tevinter's national character. Moreover, it'd only be just were it done to the people actually running the society... which could have happened if the Maker had revealed himself to a reform-minded magister who could have led an internal revolution to free the slaves from that end, and hopefully convince the populace as a whole that it needed to stay that way. Much less messy and with longer-term success to boot.

In any case, death is never justice.

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

In any case, death is never justice.

Funny you should say that considering your constant talk of killing those who disagree with you.

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

In any case, death is never justice.

Funny you should say that considering your constant talk of killing those who disagree with you.

Death may be a regrettable necessity. A being of the Maker's power and malice can probably not be safely kept alive.

[lil yonce]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

His statements seem to imply that he hasn't been in Tevinter since his little sojourn through the City, if his desire to go to the first acolyte is to be taken as any indication. If followers of Dumat drank his blood, he would remember that -- as he can remember details from Old Tevinter -- and know he's met with the first acolyte.

It is known that the Wardens caught him immediately after the First Blight after seeing him command lesser Darkspawn, but that's about it.

Then perhaps some other way. I don't he was made a darkspawn by the Maker. I think he had transformed into a creature from extreme lyrium use. So perhaps before he entered the Golden City. Maybe some sort of blood magic ritual.

What did he say on the matter again?

"Mages have additionally been known to suffer physical mutation: The magisters ]lords of the Tevinter Imperium were widely reputed to have been so affected by their years of lyrium use that they could not be recognized by their own kin, nor even as creatures that had once been human."

--From In Pursuit of Knowledge: The Travels of a Chantry Scholar, by Brother Genitivi

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 23 février 2013 - 12:35 .

[TEWR]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Then perhaps some other way. I don't he was made a darkspawn by the Maker. I think he had transformed into a creature from extreme lyrium use. So perhaps before he entered the Golden City. Maybe some sort of blood magic ritual.

"Mages have additionally been known to suffer physical mutation: The magisters ]lords of the Tevinter Imperium were widely reputed to have been so affected by their years of lyrium use that they could not be recognized by their own kin, nor even as creatures that had once been human."

--From In Pursuit of Knowledge: The Travels of a Chantry Scholar, by Brother Genitivi

As a note, I wouldn't take "transformed by years of lyrium use" to mean "Darkspawn". Lyrium has been known to cause physical mutations in Mages today that are pretty grotesque. It doesn't necessarily point to Darkspawn, though one can certainly be led to believe that as it does imply iit.

[lil yonce]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Imperium did carry on as it had always done. The "judgment" did nothing at all to Tevinter's national character.Moreover, it'd only be just were it done to the people actually running the society... which could have happened if the Maker had revealed himself to a reform-minded magister who could have led an internal revolution to free the slaves from that end, and hopefully convince the populace as a whole that it needed to stay that way. Much less messy and with longer-term success to boot.

I think it had to be Andraste to lead the revolution as I think she is the Bride of the Maker. She's special. Crucial, I think. The Maker revealed himself to her when he heard her voice. He returned to humanity at her prompting. And her death is very important to the Maker's plan for humanity (I include other races in that description as well). I don't want to say it was planned (I don't think it was) or that it was a good thing but that it happend is not such a terrible thing. I do think the original plan was to exact judgement on Tevinter. Without Maferath's betrayal, Minrathous was goint to fall.

In any case, death is never justice.

I disagree.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 23 février 2013 - 02:13 .

[Kidd]

Youth4Ever wrote...

I think Andraste used blood magic for good or in the Maker's name when she gave Glandivalis to Shartan. She was a fighting a very corrupt Imperium.

Think we're supposed to take the enslavement power as canon? Isn't it just a gameplay thing?

I mean, that's pretty darn huge right there if it's not a pure gameplay element...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

True, but if the lore tells us that the Old Gods were the ones who taught the magisters blood magic and that the they become corrupted in the presence of Darkspawn, would that not indicate that it is a possibility that the Archdemons possss blod magic in such a form that it can control all the Darkspawn through the connection of the taint?

Avernus seems to mean the taint and blood magic are very different things. Or do you mean that the taint is like the internet, while blood magic is the computer virus installed in a computer/darkspawn?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

1) The Magisters, who by Archie Archibold and Corypheus are Awakened, are incapable of hearing the Call of the Old Gods which serves as a beacon for the mindless Darkspawn. At the same time, this inability to hear it renders them immune to an Archdemon's control.

Corypheus seems most eager to talk to Dumat, who seemingly was capable of answering the call of the magisters at their whims. It's possible Dumat was capable of long-distance communication with the magisters, which may have lead to him being corrupted one way or the other. Either he appeared before a corrupted magister or the magister's connection to Dumat drove Dumat mad telepathically.

Since the Chantry scholars know nothing of this Old God Walkie Talkie, they would assume the magisters sought out Dumat conventionally, regardless of what may or may not have actually happened. We know an awakened darkspawn can corrupt an Old God after all, considering the Architect.

This connection of theirs may even be of similar type as the taint itself btw.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

In any case, death is never justice.

Funny you should say that considering your constant talk of killing those who disagree with you.

Death may be a regrettable necessity. A being of the Maker's power and malice can probably not be safely kept alive.

Well now, do we have proof it was the Maker behind all the various unpleasant things he's being credited/blamed for that weakened the Imperium? Unless I've missed something massively important, anything we've seen could have happened with or without the Maker's intervention. And the weather that Andraste's disciple states helped the rebellion could have been a series of coincidental, mundane disasters. In fact, for that matter, is he provably extant?

(As for killing him, if the Maker is this world's equivalent of the Abrahamic God, killing him may or may not be doable.)

[TEWR]

Corypheus seems most eager to talk to Dumat, who seemingly was capable of answering the call of the magisters at their whims. It's possible Dumat was capable of long-distance communication with the magisters, which may have lead to him being corrupted one way or the other. Either he appeared before a corrupted magister or the magister's connection to Dumat drove Dumat mad telepathically.

Since the Chantry scholars know nothing of this Old God Walkie Talkie, they would assume the magisters sought out Dumat conventionally, regardless of what may or may not have actually happened. We know an awakened darkspawn can corrupt an Old God after all, considering the Architect.

This connection of theirs may even be of similar type as the taint itself btw.

Yes, but the Architect's presence wasn't what corrupted Urthemiel. It was his Joining ritual. He gave it to Urthemiel, hoping this would free all Darkspawn everywhere. All it did was just create a Blight, unfortunate as that was.

As for the "walkie-talkie corruption", I'm not certain what to make of that. Let me review the lore for a minute.

[TheJediSaint]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

In any case, death is never justice.

Funny you should say that considering your constant talk of killing those who disagree with you.

Death may be a regrettable necessity. A being of the Maker's power and malice can probably not be safely kept alive.

Well now, do we have proof it was the Maker behind all the various unpleasant things he's being credited/blamed for that weakened the Imperium? Unless I've missed something massively important, anything we've seen could have happened with or without the Maker's intervention. And the weather that Andraste's disciple states helped the rebellion could have been a series of coincidental, mundane disasters. In fact, for that matter, is he provably extant?

(As for killing him, if the Maker is this world's equivalent of the Abrahamic God, killing him may or may not be doable.)

It's also fully possible that everything that happened to the Imperium was simply a result of their breaching the Golden City, and the resulting bad stuff was later attributed to the Maker.   Much the way any natrual disaster is often attributed to the wrath of God.

[Fast Jimmy]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Simply put, it's mass murder and is grounds to refer to whomever would commit such a thing as a paragon of true evil.

So the Imperium should be allowed to carry on as they have? There should be no judgement? No justice for the hundreds of thouands, the generations of slaves chained to the Imperium? No change at all because one generation of children will die? The Tevinters could have prevented it by freeing their slaves. They wouldn't do it.

Should the slavery of an entire continent happen under the Qun? Where you are born into your role and you have no freedom? No justice for the hundreds of thousands who will have their will chained to Koslun? No change at all because some Qunari in Kirkwall will die? The Qunari could have prevented it by not recruiting in Kirkwall. They wouldn't do it.

Yet Sister Patriece is evil, and Andraste is the beacon of pure goodness?