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[SkullStrife]

PuppiesOfDeath2 wrote...



I appreciate the OP's decision to open this thread.

For my BioWare friends, you know I despise the endings, both the original ones and the EC.  I think the concept was terrible; I loathe the StarBrat and his contrived appearance at the end of a great story; I really dislike the departure from the successful formula of allowing a well-played game to succeed with a hero that was an extension of the player, etc.  It was tragic and awful and a betrayal of many who loved the series.  I swore to never buy DLC for this game unless the endings were revised.  I also believed that a revision was necessary because, as many here have pointed out, too many players who invested hundreds of hours in this game were left with an ending that could not be won.  No matter thoughtful you were in playing your Shepard.  And that would cost BioWare dearly in the future.  These were, in my informed assessment, the majority of dedicated players.  Many may have "moved on" but they aren't happy.

I am one them.

However, I understand that declaring the ending to the culmination of a tremendously successful trilogy to be a colossal failure isn't institutionally easy for BioWare.  Personalities and egos and careers are important considerations when everyday the institution has to inspire its creative staff to be bold and tell great stories. 

So we have the last DLC for Commander Shepard:  Citadel.

Before we all reignite the ending debates, I suggest a pause for a moment to consider something, particularly for my fellow players who really, really dislike the endings of ME3.

Could Citadel serve as an alternate ending?

Forget the horrible introduction of the StarBrat, the forced choices and rainbow colors of destruction.  Forget the bizarre Garden of Eden cinematics, the absence of Harbinger (except for his distant beam), and Marauder Shields (God rest his soul...he tried to save us).  I mean, really forget it.  It was a terrible plot construct.  It is out there, but, perhaps, this DLC will simply allow you to stop here, at the Citadel, and simply forget the nasty mess of an ending that was just so badly botched.

Those, like me, who wanted to win the game, wanted to share victory with our friends, have personal time with our LIs, have, finally, a well-earned sense of accomplishment.  A chance to relax after the epic battle with those most who are most meaningful in this universe.  If Citadel allows you to do that, and I don't have to do anything else to remind myself (or be reminded) of those atrocious endings, it might work as the best institutional compromise of which BioWare was capable.  Your house may not be on Rannoch, but you'll have one on the Citadel (pretty natural for Shepard, actually.)  You can hang out and gamble with your pals.  Maybe you can have your closure there and feel a sense of final victory. 

The Reaper plot has been horribly ruined by GlowBoy and the lousy endings anyway.

So please, don't remind me that I have anything left to do at the end of the Citadel DLC.  That would defeat its purpose as an "end unto itself."  Allow me to ignore the prior mistake (and that is what it is) and perhaps those of us who felt betrayed by it can move on feeling that we have had the chance to share victory with our friends. 

I am rather surprised by my reaction to the description of this DLC.  I like this company, and what it has generally done with ME has been amazing.  That is why the ending was such a soul-crushing mess.  I really hope this is what BioWare is trying to do, balance the ending mess with what it knows those who really don't like them wanted to see instead.  Perhaps, BioWare has found a compromise that gives those disenchanted players an ending they can live with.  I hope so.  Compromises aren't perfect, but a good one can be rewarding enough to allow you to move happily on.

I agree with you somehow... BUT I beleive that even if they do that it wouldn´t be enough... the only solution is to change the ending... and the IT gives them the tool to keep the catalyst... even if it was a HUGE mistake as you said... they seem to LOVE him... so if they love him, the IT gives them a way to keep him and at the same time change the ending completely

but probably it is too late for that... as they will answer with a...

"we have dismissed that claim" kind of prhase...

I really don´t know what plot could they plan for using the citadel again... the citadel as we know was created by the reapers and is the home of the catalyst (which makes no sense as the reapers should be each independent, but whatever...) so MAYBE there is an alternate ending... I hope so...

[Berty213]

Can't believe people are still bitter about the endings, it's been a year.

[Rhayak]

They should.

They're still in time, actually. How can they not realize how happy people would be if they gave them Conventional Victory?

[Dabrikishaw]

Kel Riever wrote...

I won't be buying anything BioWare, but I most certainly will be here, making fun of them. Cause I am entertained by the cultists!

Also multiplayer.  Because it has better writing.

[o Ventus]

Berty213 wrote...

Can't believe people are still bitter about the endings, it's been a year.

People are still bitter about the Phantom Menace, and that's over 10 years old.

If they feel negative about something, they are entitled to.

[Darth Wraith]

Rhayak wrote...

They should.

They're still in time, actually. How can they not realize how happy people would be if they gave them Conventional Victory?

This is the BSN. People would just find something else to whine incessantly about, like how they didn't like the colour of the conventional victory.

[FAButzke]

I wish BSN had a filter where you could insert words in there and hide all the topics containing those words. I would only add: 'End' and its variants.
Come to think of it, if I do that, BSN would transform itself on a ghost town. Nevermind. Keep going.

[o Ventus]

Darth Wraith wrote...

Rhayak wrote...

They should.

They're still in time, actually. How can they not realize how happy people would be if they gave them Conventional Victory?

This is the BSN. People would just find something else to whine incessantly about, like how they didn't like the colour of the conventional victory.

There is no conventional victory.

[Kabooooom]

Citadel will probably add some changes to the starbrat dialogue at least, an we may even get more than that. Weekes has been very enigmatic about that and then responded with 'no spoilers, that's all I can say'. Will the endings change? No. But we may get more to them. So everyone needs to calm down til we know more

[Rhayak]

Darth Wraith wrote...
This is the BSN. People would just find something else to whine incessantly about, like how they didn't like the colour of the conventional victory.

I'm pretty confident that most of BSN would reach orgasm, if given a fifth option that made you win anyway without using the crucible.

Modifié par Rhayak, 22 février 2013 - 05:11 .

[that guy2012]

Me personally I got over the whole deus ex ending thing, but I am still a little bitter that they left high ems destroy to speculations, hell I am not really asking for priority earth/crucible to be completly redone although it would be nice, I would be satisfied with them extending destroy via a cinematic either showing shep being rescued or a reunion with the squad. I doubt that we would get any extention to high ems destroy but with that said this dlc will probably be the one and only one that I will buy just for the squad interaction alone. I think that the series itself is salvageable if bioware learns from it's mistakes, I just hope they give the next ME hero a conclusive end during the ending that he'd survived in his trilogy.

[Fnork]

How many war assets this time ? 100 ? 150 if you fully furnish Shep's crib ? 

[alsonamedbort]

[quote]FAButzke wrote...

I wish BSN had a filter where you could insert words in there and hide all the topics containing those words. I would only add: 'End' and its variants.
Come to think of it, if I do that, BSN would transform itself on a ghost town. Nevermind. Keep going.[/quote]
[/quote]

It would ultimately filter out all of the threads since they all go careening into an ending "discussion" at some point.

EDIT:  Whoops, sorry wrong quote the first time.

Modifié par alsonamedbort, 22 février 2013 - 05:33 .

[CronoDragoon]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

And post EC?

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/14226254


The link shows, as expected, that post-EC the average survey-taker believes the endings post-EC are somewhere middle of the road, neither terrible nor great. While the average score of the original endings was 4.9, the average score post-EC was 7.1 (page 14-15 has the graph plus mean info). That is a significant change thanks to the EC.

The survey is interesting regardless of one's stance on the endings. For example, it shows that out of all the reasons/goals fans believed they were fighting for, self-determination for the various species was the most strongly supported. Additionally, despite what a certain poster has been implying around here, the ending is not more well-liked the older the survey-taker: the opposite is true, as the 36-50 age group accounts for the lowest mean score of the original endings.

In general my stance agrees with the results. The current endings aren't incredible, but they are acceptable, and the EC did a remarkable job increasing people's opinions of the endings.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

CronoDragoon wrote...

In general my stance agrees with the results. The current endings aren't incredible, but they are acceptable, and the EC did a remarkable job increasing people's opinions of the endings.

I agree. The post-EC endings are just acceptable. Definitely not good or worthy of the trilogy as a whole, but acceptable.

A new / updated ending choice would be great coming from this DLC, but the real value will come from what Citadel has to offer to the SP campaign. In particular, bringing the ME1 and ME2 crew back together for one last hurrah will go a long way in making up for how marginalized most of these characters were over the majority of ME3.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 22 février 2013 - 05:34 .

[AlanC9]

CronoDragoon wrote...
The survey is interesting regardless of one's stance on the endings. For example, it shows that out of all the reasons/goals fans believed they were fighting for, self-determination for the various species was the most strongly supported.

 Note that the standard objections to Synthesis and Control can be read that way. Synthesis is a paternalistic intervention in the lives of every being in the galaxy. I've never quite understood how self-determination is a problem for Control, though; if your Shep thinks violating self-determination is a bad thing, he wouldn't do it. But you do see that objection here a lot.

Additionally, despite what a certain poster has been implying around here, the ending is not more well-liked the older the survey-taker: the opposite is true, as the 36-50 age group accounts for the lowest mean score of the original endings.

He might have been confused by a few of those "what is an RPG" threads we had last summer. We did have a tendency for older players to be indifferent to traditional CRPG mechanics, and so they liked the ME3 design approach better than did people who grew up with, say, BG2. That was all anecdotal anyway, mind.

Modifié par AlanC9, 22 février 2013 - 06:37 .

[DetcelferVisionary]

Dr. Megaverse wrote...

I like all this "a few sour folks" talk when almost a year after release people are still expressing unhappiness. People are still expressing unhappiness about the people expressing unhappiness. Literally the forums are NO DIFFERENT than they were right after launch. Yet detractors say there aren't any problems....seems legit

Also,  they're the first ones who will defends Biowares's "artistic integrity".   Whatever the hell that is.  

I think what people dont understand is just like any book,  just like any great story,   you dont set people down a story path within parameters only to about face at the very end.  

It was a trailer to a love story,  only to have the couple shoot eachother in the face in the last 10 minutes telling you to get some DLC.  We were promised something and it was never delivered.  If I was told,  "this is going to end miserably,  please buy our product",  I would have no one but myself to blame.   I was told my choices MATTERED.  THEY DIDNT! 

How is anyone supposed to forget that as a consumer of a paid for product?  It's like buying a car without breaks. 

People cant compare these consumer relationships because the video game industry is a growing and complex thing.  But lets be honest,  the consumers got screwed here and this crap is running rampant in the one industry that can get away with it easily.   Where are the watch dogs I'd like to know.  How many countless examples does EA have to give that they dont give a crap about integrity?

You know what would impress me?  An apology.  "We should have done better with that ending.  We promised you something and didnt deliver.  We tried to patch it,  but it was only polishing a turd."  It'll never happen.  ... and because that will never happen,  NO ONE should EVER tell the consumer to "stop complaining".   

Modifié par DetcelferVisionary, 22 février 2013 - 05:41 .

[Heimdall]

Rhayak wrote...

They should.

They're still in time, actually. How can they not realize how happy people would be if they gave them Conventional Victory?

I and many others would be unhappy.  They hammered the point all of ME3 that conventional victory was impossible.  That was the point of expending so many resources on the Crucible in the first place.  Conventional victoy ould require substantial alterations to the overall plot to fit thematically.

[AlanC9]

DetcelferVisionary wrote...

I was told my choices MATTERED.  THEY DIDNT! 

They didn't? Entire races lived or died based on my decisions. Including the human race if I wanted a really tragic ending.

[AlanC9]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Rhayak wrote...

They should.

They're still in time, actually. How can they not realize how happy people would be if they gave them Conventional Victory?

I and many others would be unhappy.  They hammered the point all of ME3 that conventional victory was impossible.  That was the point of expending so many resources on the Crucible in the first place.  Conventional victoy ould require substantial alterations to the overall plot to fit thematically.

It's funny.  We see so many posts saying that the problem with the ending is narrative and thematic incoherence, and yet so many people say the game would be better if they threw in a nonsensical conventional victory.

I haven't caught anyone holding both positions simultaneously yet. Though I have seen a couple of people holding that the problem with ME3 is both that EA wants to pander and that Bio refuses to pander.

Modifié par AlanC9, 22 février 2013 - 05:53 .

[DetcelferVisionary]

AlanC9 wrote...

DetcelferVisionary wrote...

I was told my choices MATTERED.  THEY DIDNT! 

They didn't? Entire races lived or died based on my decisions. Including the human race if I wanted a really tragic ending.

Seriously?  You think you had any semblence of control for that ending?  Get real.

[AlanC9]

DetcelferVisionary wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

DetcelferVisionary wrote...

I was told my choices MATTERED.  THEY DIDNT! 

They didn't? Entire races lived or died based on my decisions. Including the human race if I wanted a really tragic ending.

Seriously?  You think you had any semblence of control for that ending?  Get real.

Are you saying we couldn't control the fate of the entire galaxy? Or that you can't tell the difference between Destroy, Control, Synthesis, and Refuse? Or that the choices that happened before the ending don't matter, because the quarians are magically resurrected at the end somehow, etc?

Get real, indeed.

Look, I know you're bitter because Merizan shot down your idea, but that post just doesn't cut it.

Modifié par AlanC9, 22 février 2013 - 06:41 .

[Legbiter]

You mean the forums will be short a hundred mopey emos?

That sounds too good to be true, there has to be a downside.

[XqctaX]

Mercedes-Benz wrote...

Unless the endings get fixed, I won't buy the next Mass Effect game for sure. If they mess-up Dragon Age 3, then I am done with BioWare.

my feelings aswell

[Son-Gohan]

CronoDragoon wrote...

We'll see how many fans they lose when ME4 comes out. I doubt it will be as many as some predict.

Wouldn't be so sure.

Since finishing the game, I wasn't able to play it again one single time. (!) Neither multiplayer, nor the DLC's. I was just that much shocked and disappointed. I won't say that I'll never play a Bioware game again, my goodness, of course not. But for me, the ME universe is dead. It died with ME3. So I definitely won't buy ME4.