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[Versus Omnibus]

d4eaming wrote...

Versus Omnibus wrote...

Dusty Everman wrote...

When people say your choices don't  really matter in ME, it always kills me a little inside.  We spent so much time making the game work for everyones own experience. 

I fail to see how a love-interest suddenly cheating on you or another dying by something you could actually prevent was designed to satisfy people.

Yeah, exactly. From what I just read, there is really jack-all of Thane anything except, maybe, someone recognizing he died.

My desire for this DLC just plummeted, to be quite honest. Thanks for that.

My problem with Thane's death isn't that it happened, but that he was "stolen" from Femshep.

Here I was, ready to see Thane die happy and painlessly, only to see him get killed by a poorly written character. I was waiting for an Interrupt to happen but it never did. Shepard never tries to shoot Kai Leng or help Thane in anyway and he dies painfully because Bioware believed it caused more drama.

I'm surprised Bioware is shocked by Thanemancer reactions. Really, what other kind of reaction were they expecting?

[Fiery Phoenix]

Versus Omnibus wrote...

I'm surprised Bioware is shocked by Thanemancer reactions. Really, what other kind of reaction were they expecting?

Pretty much. I just don't know anymore.

Sad thing is, I have a Thane/FemShep album from 2010 in my profile that I've been waiting to update with ME3 content but haven't yet because there simply is no such content in ME3. Was waiting for DLC to kind of "fix" that but I'm probably not going to be adding anything, after all.

Apparently we picked the 'wrong answer' by romancing who we thought was one of the most complex and well-rounded characters in the series. Good times.

[Omega Torsk]

I knew right when I saw that "after the Citadel Coup" comment that this would come up, eventually.

Hell hath no fury like a Thanemancer scorned.

[d4eaming]

My first playthrough is a male Shepard, so it wasn't as bad. When I made my female infiltrator, I deliberately did not want to romance Thane because his ME3 content was so crappy. I wanted to romance him, it was so tempting when the option came up, but I stuck with Garrus instead. Because Garrus won't ****ing die on me in the midst of an already really depressing game.

I decided my second female Shepard should pick Thane though, and I don't even want to do the damned suicide mission because then I won't have any more content with him. I was hoping, vainly, that would change with the DLC.

Lolnope.

Modifié par d4eaming, 01 mars 2013 - 03:49 .

[Versus Omnibus]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

Versus Omnibus wrote...

I'm surprised Bioware is shocked by Thanemancer reactions. Really, what other kind of reaction were they expecting?

Pretty much. I just don't know anymore.

Sad thing is, I have a Thane/FemShep album from 2010 in my profile that I've been waiting to update with ME3 content but haven't yet because there simply is no such content in ME3. Was waiting for DLC to kind of "fix" that but I'm probably not going to be adding anything, after all.

Apparently we picked the 'wrong answer' by romancing who we thought was one of the most complex and well-rounded characters in the series. Good times.

At best, you're going to get one those "ghost" scenes with Thane.

Thane is a complex character. It's just that instead of him dying by his disease, Bioware thought him getting murdered was a "better" choice. I have yet to get any answers from Bioware about this since they seem to hate me.

[Mr.House]

Dusty Everman wrote...

Thrazesul wrote...
And seriously zombie- Thane? Wow.

I do apologize for using the term "zombie-Thane".  I did not mean to be disrespectful.  I was just trying to say that we couldn't bring him back from the dead.  This pack will most likely be played from people's auto-save made just before the assault on the Illusive Man's base, well after Thane has passed on.  We don't want to force players to play the game completely over to see new content.  We are adding to your story, not changing what you've already experienced in the past.

That said, we tried to make a positive experience for those who romanced Thane.  We'll see in a week if you think that was successful or not. 

And as an aside, the reason "zombie-Thane" came so easily from my lips (or, er, fingers), is that during the development of ME3 is was a common logic bug to have dead characters accidentally appear where they shouldn't.  It was common for us to say things like "There goes Garrus smooching up with zombie-Tali", or "Hey, I just got an email from zombie-Wrex".  There's a whole lot of could-be-dead characters we need to account for, and as far as I know, we fixed all those type bugs before ship.

Dusty, you could have easly had Thane fake his death at the hospital and then have him show up for the dlc and explain why he faked it. You did not need to keep him dead.

Modifié par Mr.House, 01 mars 2013 - 03:55 .

[d4eaming]

You know, there was a minute ray of hope when they said "complicated and spoilery." Making me enjoy his death more is neither of those things.

[David7204]

Mr.House wrote...

Dusty Everman wrote...

Thrazesul wrote...
And seriously zombie- Thane? Wow.

I do apologize for using the term "zombie-Thane".  I did not mean to be disrespectful.  I was just trying to say that we couldn't bring him back from the dead.  This pack will most likely be played from people's auto-save made just before the assault on the Illusive Man's base, well after Thane has passed on.  We don't want to force players to play the game completely over to see new content.  We are adding to your story, not changing what you've already experienced in the past.

That said, we tried to make a positive experience for those who romanced Thane.  We'll see in a week if you think that was successful or not. 

And as an aside, the reason "zombie-Thane" came so easily from my lips (or, er, fingers), is that during the development of ME3 is was a common logic bug to have dead characters accidentally appear where they shouldn't.  It was common for us to say things like "There goes Garrus smooching up with zombie-Tali", or "Hey, I just got an email from zombie-Wrex".  There's a whole lot of could-be-dead characters we need to account for, and as far as I know, we fixed all those type bugs before ship.

Dusty, you could have easly had Thane fake his death at the hospital and then have him show up for the dlc and explain why he faked it. You did not need to keep him dead.

I really hope you aren't serious.

[Mr.House]

David7204 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Dusty Everman wrote...

Thrazesul wrote...
And seriously zombie- Thane? Wow.

I do apologize for using the term "zombie-Thane".  I did not mean to be disrespectful.  I was just trying to say that we couldn't bring him back from the dead.  This pack will most likely be played from people's auto-save made just before the assault on the Illusive Man's base, well after Thane has passed on.  We don't want to force players to play the game completely over to see new content.  We are adding to your story, not changing what you've already experienced in the past.

That said, we tried to make a positive experience for those who romanced Thane.  We'll see in a week if you think that was successful or not. 

And as an aside, the reason "zombie-Thane" came so easily from my lips (or, er, fingers), is that during the development of ME3 is was a common logic bug to have dead characters accidentally appear where they shouldn't.  It was common for us to say things like "There goes Garrus smooching up with zombie-Tali", or "Hey, I just got an email from zombie-Wrex".  There's a whole lot of could-be-dead characters we need to account for, and as far as I know, we fixed all those type bugs before ship.

Dusty, you could have easly had Thane fake his death at the hospital and then have him show up for the dlc and explain why he faked it. You did not need to keep him dead.

I really hope you aren't serious.

It's no more silly then half the crap in ME2 and ME3.

[David7204]

So it is a serious suggestion, then? Because I know I certainly wouldn't trust someone who would advocate that sort of thing to decide what's 'crap' in a story or not.

[Mr.House]

David7204 wrote...

So it is a serious suggestion, then? Because I know I certainly wouldn't trust someone who would advocate that sort of thing to decide what's 'crap' in a story or not.

This is the same series that has project Lazarus, derpy Cerberus, Kai Leng, the Council no longer beleving the Reapers in mE2 depsite syaing they did in ME, Garrus playing batman no matter what in ME2, Jacob cheating on Shepard, starbrat, Hackett, cruible and bunch of other nonsense.Of course you like crap so of course you are against anything that let's the Thane fanbase get content and enjoy a product, a product that Bioware has said is made FOR THE FANS. How is this product for Thanefans? It's not. Bioware dropped the ball with Thane and instead of trying to fix it they won't and thus they have just upset a whole fanbase that won't buy this product.

Modifié par Mr.House, 01 mars 2013 - 04:14 .

[d4eaming]

Mr.House wrote...

David7204 wrote...

So it is a serious suggestion, then? Because I know I certainly wouldn't trust someone who would advocate that sort of thing to decide what's 'crap' in a story or not.

This is the same series that has project Lazarus, derpy Cerberus, Kai Leng, the Council no longer beleving the Reapers in mE2 depsite syaing they did in ME, Garrus playing batman no matter what in ME2, Jacob cheating on Shepard, starbrat, Hackett, cruible and bunch of other nonsense.Of course you like crap so of course you are against anything that let's the Thane fanbase get content and enjoy a product, a product that Bioware has said is made FOR THE FANS. How is this product for Thanefans? It's not. Bioware dropped the ball with Thane and instead of trying to fix it they won't and thus they have just upset a whole fanbase that won't buy this product.

x2

Dropped the ball twice now. By god, do I want Thane romance. What I do not want is to feel utterly depressed because one of my favorite characters got snubbed. Again.

So, the DLC is supposed to let us "rekindle romances?" Not if you chose Thane.

[David7204]

Look at this. A outstanding and brilliantly executed plot point like Garrus becoming a vigilante is 'crap.' This is the kind of nonsense that passes here. Lazarus project, the attitude of the Council, Hackett, all perfectly credible, perfectly good writing. Even the parts I agree were a problem still have pieces that were done well. I'm sorry you roll over so easily to Youtube videos that say vaguely credible things about storytelling? But I would keep quite a bit of that 'crap' exactly as is, and that's coming from someone who spends quite a bit of time here on the BSN. Someone who clearly isn't hiding from criticism.

You should be a little less transparent in projecting your anger. And perhaps try to be a little more credible by not suggesting moronic ideas and implying that BioWare is at fault for not implementing them?

I tell you what. You can prove to me just how capable you are. Right here, right now. All you have to do is write me up a paragraph of how Thane could credibly survive from ME 2. According to you, it's just so easy, right? So obvious? Can you do that for me? Can you avoid the disgusting hypocrisy of shilling your own ideas as the best thing ever while whining continually about better content in the actual game?

Modifié par David7204, 01 mars 2013 - 04:34 .

[Fawx9]

David7204 wrote...

Look at this. A outstanding and brilliantly executed plot point like Garrus becoming a vigilante is 'crap.' This is the kind of nonsense that passes here. Lazarus project, the attitude of the Council, Hackett, all perfectly credible, perfectly good writing. Even the parts I agree were a problem still have pieces that were done well. I'm sorry you roll over so easily to Youtube videos that say vaguely credible things about storytelling? But I would keep quite a bit of that 'crap' exactly as is, and that's coming from someone who spends quite a bit of time here on the BSN. Someone who clearly isn't hiding from criticism.

You should be a little less transparent in projecting your anger. And perhaps try to be a little more credible by not suggesting moronic ideas and implying that BioWare is at fault for not implementing them?

I tell you what. You can prove to me just how capable you are. Right here, right now. All you have to do is write me up a paragraph of how Thane could credibly survive from ME 2. According to you, it's just so easy, right? So obvious? Can you do that for me? Can you avoid the disgusting hypocrisy of shilling your own ideas as the best thing ever while whining continually about better content in the actual game?

He could have had the transplant that he was a candidate for.

[David7204]

There are about 10 different problems with that stacked on top of one another. Short answer: No.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Dusty Everman wrote...
I can't wait to talk to you about the DLC once its been released to the wild!

Thanks for answering our questions, Dusty, and for clarifying the point about Thane's survival in the DLC.  I'm probably getting it for my Garrus and Miranda playthroughs, so we'll see once it's out 

As for choices from 1 and 2 carrying over into 3, I wouldn't say it's so much a "your choices don't matter" scenario and more a case of patchy implementation.  There are sections of the game like Tuchanka and Rannoch where one changed plot flag alters the characters, tone, and plot options.  There are other sections of the game (like Thane's and Jacob's character arcs) where it feels like I'm talking to the exact same person and doing the exact same thing even if my actions in 1 and 2 were very different.

[Fawx9]

David7204 wrote...

There are about 10 different problems with that stacked on top of one another. Short answer: No.

Oh so when the lore says that he has a viable treatment in the form of a lung transplant we are to just ignore that. Instead we are supposed to go along with the retconned timeline and disease change. Got it.

[Mr.House]

David7204 wrote...

Look at this. A outstanding and brilliantly executed plot point like Garrus becoming a vigilante is 'crap.' This is the kind of nonsense that passes here. Lazarus project, the attitude of the Council, Hackett, all perfectly credible, perfectly good writing. Even the parts I agree were a problem still have pieces that were done well. I'm sorry you roll over so easily to Youtube videos that say vaguely credible things about storytelling? But I would keep quite a bit of that 'crap' exactly as is, and that's coming from someone who spends quite a bit of time here on the BSN. Someone who clearly isn't hiding from criticism.

You should be a little less transparent in projecting your anger. And perhaps try to be a little more credible by not suggesting moronic ideas and implying that BioWare is at fault for not implementing them?

I tell you what. You can prove to me just how capable you are. Right here, right now. All you have to do is write me up a paragraph of how Thane could credibly survive from ME 2. According to you, it's just so easy, right? So obvious? Can you do that for me? Can you avoid the disgusting hypocrisy of shilling your own ideas as the best thing ever while whining continually about better content in the actual game?

I have stated in the past how Thane could have survived the fight with Kai Leng in the past many times. It's called Kirrahe. He's a bodyguard of Velarn during the coup, so why did he not help Thane and Shepard, why was he absent from that scene in ME3 if Thane is there? Explain to me, you can't. Bioware did not care about Thane and gave him a crappy way to go. Thane fans expected him to die yes, from his illness. Not from cutscene stupidity. Which is what the fight with Kai Leng is. Charging someone with a gun who has a sword is so idiotic it's not even funny.

Modifié par Mr.House, 01 mars 2013 - 04:48 .

[David7204]

You're cherry picking the details of the disease you want to see and ignoring the details that you don't. You're cherry picking elements of Thane's characterzation. You're flat-out ignoring the narrative implications of a dying character suddenly deciding to get aggressive treatment.

The comment about the doctors? Not a retcon. There's an incredibly simple and obvious answer - Thane saw multiple doctors. In fact, that's even explicitly implied by his comment of 'favorite' doctor. Besides, Thane's tone makes it clear it's somewhat of a wry joke.

Change in disease? I'm guessing you're going to tell me that the disease caused his blood to become less effective? (Ignoring, again, that the codex explicitly said the disease spreads to other tissues, like blood) Do you have the medical education to explain to me how and why a bacterial disease causing blood to become less effective is implausible at all?

Modifié par David7204, 01 mars 2013 - 05:01 .

[David7204]

Mr.House wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Look at this. A outstanding and brilliantly executed plot point like Garrus becoming a vigilante is 'crap.' This is the kind of nonsense that passes here. Lazarus project, the attitude of the Council, Hackett, all perfectly credible, perfectly good writing. Even the parts I agree were a problem still have pieces that were done well. I'm sorry you roll over so easily to Youtube videos that say vaguely credible things about storytelling? But I would keep quite a bit of that 'crap' exactly as is, and that's coming from someone who spends quite a bit of time here on the BSN. Someone who clearly isn't hiding from criticism.

You should be a little less transparent in projecting your anger. And perhaps try to be a little more credible by not suggesting moronic ideas and implying that BioWare is at fault for not implementing them?

I tell you what. You can prove to me just how capable you are. Right here, right now. All you have to do is write me up a paragraph of how Thane could credibly survive from ME 2. According to you, it's just so easy, right? So obvious? Can you do that for me? Can you avoid the disgusting hypocrisy of shilling your own ideas as the best thing ever while whining continually about better content in the actual game?

I have stated in the past how Thane could have survived the fight with Kai Leng in the past many times. It's called Kirrahe. He's a bodyguard of Velarn during the coup, so why did he not help Thane and Shepard, why was he absent from that scene in ME3 if Thane is there? Explain to me, you can't. Bioware did not care about Thane and gave him a crappy way to go. Thane fans expected him to die yes, from his illness. Not from cutscene stupidity. Which is what the fight with Kai Leng is. Charging someone with a gun who has a sword is so idiotic it's not even funny.

Tell me, suppose the fight between Kai Leng and Thane was done much better? He still dies, of course. You would be perfectly okay with Thane's content then? No complaints about this DLC not being 'FOR THE FANS?'

[RShara]

David7204 why is having an option to save Thane (through a number of plausible methods that have been mentioned) such a bad thing for you?

Thane had the same # of conversations that Garrus, Tali, Miranda, etc had in ME2. Intro. 1st conversation. Second conversation. Loyalty Mission. Thank you conversation. Initial possible romance conversation. Romance confession. Repeating final conversation. Pre-Omega-4 romance finale. Single line commentary after Collector Base.

The romances were all structured in parallel.

Garrus, Miranda, Jacob are all recruited before the first interlude, and actually have the most non-romantic conversations.

Some various options have been mentioned multiple times. They could at the very least, extend his life past the end of ME3, so that anything beyond that is headcanon.
1. Lung Transplant: He is eligible. He declined while in battle sleep. Awake, an option to persuade him to reconsider is not beyond plausibility.
2. Medigel-for-the-lungs: Announced in a CDN, medigel for the lungs was to revolutionalize treatment for asthma and other lung-disease sufferers.
3. Don't run into a sword when you have a gun. Obvious statement here, you'd think.
4. Kirrahe takes Thane's place: He is supposed to be the Councilor's bodyguard. Where the heck is he?

A couple scenarios for ya. Thane does his retarded charge-a-sword move, gets stabbed, Kolyat comes to the rescue as a blood donor, they transplant him with new lungs to slow the disease, and he recouperates enough to join work on the Crucible.

Kirrahe intercepts Kai Leng before the fight, does his job. Thane gets his own mission that actually has something to do with his character and talents and backstory.

Shepard and co join in the fight with Kai Leng, and so Thane doesn't need to charge-the-sword.

Are these seriously so implausible? Why is it such a big no-no to give an option for Thane to at least live to the end of ME3? Why does more content for Thane translate to less content for everyone else? All the other groups are asking for more content, we're asking because we had some of the crappiest of them all. But debating over who had the least/worst content is a zero sum game.
Wouldn't it be better to ask Bioware to LISTEN to our very reasonable requestr and hopes, and to quit trolling?

No one is denying that Bioware made a fantastic trilogy. But denying that the last game of the series was a severe disappointment to a lot of people is rather naive, wouldn't you say?

And FYI, we have two separate medical biologists analyze the information about his disease in ME2 vs ME3 and who have written quite long and informative articles about it.  I'll see if I can dig them up.

Modifié par RShara, 01 mars 2013 - 05:07 .

[Mr.House]

David7204 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Look at this. A outstanding and brilliantly executed plot point like Garrus becoming a vigilante is 'crap.' This is the kind of nonsense that passes here. Lazarus project, the attitude of the Council, Hackett, all perfectly credible, perfectly good writing. Even the parts I agree were a problem still have pieces that were done well. I'm sorry you roll over so easily to Youtube videos that say vaguely credible things about storytelling? But I would keep quite a bit of that 'crap' exactly as is, and that's coming from someone who spends quite a bit of time here on the BSN. Someone who clearly isn't hiding from criticism.

You should be a little less transparent in projecting your anger. And perhaps try to be a little more credible by not suggesting moronic ideas and implying that BioWare is at fault for not implementing them?

I tell you what. You can prove to me just how capable you are. Right here, right now. All you have to do is write me up a paragraph of how Thane could credibly survive from ME 2. According to you, it's just so easy, right? So obvious? Can you do that for me? Can you avoid the disgusting hypocrisy of shilling your own ideas as the best thing ever while whining continually about better content in the actual game?

I have stated in the past how Thane could have survived the fight with Kai Leng in the past many times. It's called Kirrahe. He's a bodyguard of Velarn during the coup, so why did he not help Thane and Shepard, why was he absent from that scene in ME3 if Thane is there? Explain to me, you can't. Bioware did not care about Thane and gave him a crappy way to go. Thane fans expected him to die yes, from his illness. Not from cutscene stupidity. Which is what the fight with Kai Leng is. Charging someone with a gun who has a sword is so idiotic it's not even funny.

Tell me, suppose the fight between Kai Leng and Thane was done much better? He still dies, of course. You would be perfectly okay with Thane's content then? No complaints about this DLC not being 'FOR THE FANS?'

Is Kirrahe a bodyguard still? There's the issue. Even if the fight was good. If Kirrahe sacerfices himself to save Velarn if Thane is dead, the issue still remains. Why is Kirrahe not helping Thane and Shepard. I fai lto see why Thane can not survive this encounter if you do made certain choices.

Modifié par Mr.House, 01 mars 2013 - 05:09 .

[David7204]

Let's say Kirrahe isn't there at all. Either Thane is alive or Valern dies. Thane always dies no matter what, but it's clear his death was unavoidable and everybody did everything they could to prevent it, including Shepard. No cutscene incompetence.

What then?

[RShara]

Why is his death, of all people, unavoidable?

Jack's codex entry talks about how her implants are causing neural degeneration that could kill her. The quarians constantly talk about how ill they get when they just get a suit puncture, so taking her entire suit off (and engaging in lots of various exchanges) should have gotten Tali seriously ill and perhaps killed her.

Mass Effect is about defying impossible odds. About saving people who didn't think they could be saved. About throwing defiance in the face of your enemy and winning.

Shouldn't this same attitude be given to, most of all, your LI? Yes, LI's should get special treatment.
At the very least, LI's should get EQUAL treatment. If Thane is forced to die, shouldn't his equivalent (Jack)? Could you imagine the uproar?

If Jacob has to dumb FemShep, shouldn't his equivalent (Miranda) move on as well?

Edit:  Fixing mistakes.

Modifié par RShara, 01 mars 2013 - 05:13 .