I have to ask again. Why are you guys so against people having an OPTION to have Thane's life extended to the end of the game?
You're happy with the way he has been treated? Great, you don't have to take that option. The great thing about an OPTION is that it's OPTIONAL. You can have the story go the way YOU want it, and we can have the story go the way WE want it.
Then everyone is happy. And there are scenarios that make it plausible.
Why is this such a horrible thing?
Thanemancers and the Citadel DLC
Débuté par
john-in-france
, févr. 22 2013 08:47
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#527
Posté 01 mars 2013 - 06:01
RShara
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MegaSovereign wrote...
RShara wrote...
Popular misconception. Romanced Thane was NOT accepting of death. He was in face, afraid of it and wanted to live.
The fact that he is forced to die no matter what options you chose in 2 or 3 is a forced death. His death could have been avoided with any of the scenarios already mentioned a million times. A forced death is a forced death and should never be done to the protagonist or LI unless it is plot critical and fair to all players.
Saving the Councilor wasn't plot critical?
Yea, a character death is always going to disgruntle fans of said character. I don't see how any of the choices in ME2 or ME3 contribute Thane's health.
Shepard helped him cope with his fate. If anything, Thane doing what he feels right despite his fear of death is proof enough of his acceptance.
Considering that Kirrahe does it if Thane isn't there, and Thane dies offscreen, NO it is NOT plot critical to have Thane there and he's still forced to die.
Modifié par RShara, 01 mars 2013 - 06:01 .
#528
Posté 01 mars 2013 - 06:02
MegaSovereign
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RShara wrote...
MegaSovereign wrote...
RShara wrote...
Popular misconception. Romanced Thane was NOT accepting of death. He was in face, afraid of it and wanted to live.
The fact that he is forced to die no matter what options you chose in 2 or 3 is a forced death. His death could have been avoided with any of the scenarios already mentioned a million times. A forced death is a forced death and should never be done to the protagonist or LI unless it is plot critical and fair to all players.
Saving the Councilor wasn't plot critical?
Yea, a character death is always going to disgruntle fans of said character. I don't see how any of the choices in ME2 or ME3 contribute Thane's health.
Shepard helped him cope with his fate. If anything, Thane doing what he feels right despite his fear of death is proof enough of his acceptance.
Considering that Kirrahe does it if Thane isn't there, and Thane dies offscreen, NO it is NOT plot critical to have Thane there and he's still forced to die.
=/ You got me there.
You're a monster if you ignore Thane, though.
#529
Posté 01 mars 2013 - 06:05
mythlover20
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ME2 Section from My Whispers in the Tide Thane Krios characterisation essay.
Whispers in the Tide
A Comparison of the Character Arcs of Thane Krios in Mass Effects 2 and 3
“An assassin? You’ve got to be ****ing kidding me! How many people does the Illusive Man think I need?”
“Would I even be able to use him? Assassins aren’t exactly the most social of individuals, or the most stable. Am I going to have another Jack or Grunt on my hands? Is he going to be another sociopath I have to keep a tight leash on?”
“You say you want this Nassana dead, yet you’re just giving me this information? You’re not worried that I might try to stop him?”
“Nassana ordered the mercs to just start shooting? I guess that must mean she knows he’s coming. Pity. Looks like I’ll have to help keep him alive.”
“What the hell?! You arrogant ass! Drop a body on me, indeed. I swear, if I didn’t need you…”
“Another group of workers? What is he doing? What point could there be in a cold-blooded killer saving civilians?”
“More mercs? Really, Nassana, is this one lone assassin really enough to warrant this much security, or are you just that paranoid?”
“Name my price? Ah yes, I remember you now, you self-absorbed, hate-filled ****. Of course you think you can buy me off. Money solves everything for you, doesn’t it? You’re entire life has ridden on a tide of credits, buying you a way out of anything. Well, not this time, Nassana. Not this time.”
A rumble in the vents, a man drops to the floor; three guards are down within seconds. A gun taken from the enemy is pressed into the criminal’s stomach. He fires, the shot silenced by the woman’s flesh as he cradles her against his chest. Gently he lays her across her desk, reverently placing her arms across her chest as she chokes on her final breath.
The sun rises over the horizon. Pale morning light filters through old-fashioned blinds, turning bright summer-green scales a deep golden-brown. He bows his head, his hands clasped in prayer, and whispers words over the laid-out corpse.
A statement is made, a question asked. An answer: “Not for her. For me.”
And thus the world was introduced to Thane Krios…
***
This was a fitting introduction to a complex character. In the few minutes he was present during his recruitment mission, Thane Krios presented multiple facets to his mentality. These complimentary, yet seemingly contrary, traits revealed that prior to many player’s beliefs, the assassin was not a two-dimensional character. Player choices and playstyles throughout the rest of the game allowed for the development of three potential character arcs. All of which had radically different outcomes for the Thane Krios character, and those tied to him.
The following pages detail player reactions to the Thane Krios character in Mass Effect 2, the discrepancies between his character arcs in Mass Effects 2 and 3, and the players’ reactions to Thane’s treatment in Mass Effect 3.
Thane Krios in Mass Effect 2
Character Arcs
From his introduction on Illium, through the remainder of the game, players were given the option to develop one of three complete, yet radically different character arcs for Thane Krios: an Unloyal Thane, a Loyal Friend, and a Romanced Thane.
Thane had two roles in Mass Effect 2, that of the alien love interest, which inspired his and his species’ creation, and that of the avatar for the new Drell species. Before the commencement of his Loyalty Mission Thane appeared solely as the avatar. Through his conversations he revealed many parallels between Drell and human environmental practices and industrial expansion. He also explains the socio-political effects of the Hanar rescuing the Drell, including how he came to be an assassin, and the details of Kepral’s Syndrome.
The beginning of his role as a potential love interest started at the commencement of his Loyalty Mission. Therein players learnt how his life as an assassin affected him as a man. His job eventually led to the murder of his wife by slave traders. This in turn led to Thane placing his son in the care of others, and being absent from his life for over a decade. In the end his son, Kolyat, learnt of his father’s history and moved to the Citadel to take a job as an assassin. Thane found out about it, and determined to save his son from what he believes to be “a life of sin.” From here Shepard and Thane attempted to stop Kolyat from assassinating a turian politician. The outcome of this mission was what determined the first two character arcs for Thane: Unloyal Thane, or Loyal Friend.
The first complete character arc, the Unloyal Thane arc, occurred should Thane and Shepard had failed to save Kolyat and the turian politician. This turned Thane into a man buried under tides of remorse, regret, and guilt over his past actions. He went from accepting his death to longing for it, though he gave players the impression that he did not believe the afterlife would be kind to him. He died during the suicide mission, either on the Normandy (if the Canon was not upgraded) or on the Collector Base itself. If he led a group, those following him also died. Only Thane’s name appeared on the Memorial Board in Mass Effect 3.
The second complete character arc resulted from a successful Loyalty Mission, where Thane and Shepard successfully intervene and prevent Kolyat for executing his mark. Shepard also saves Kolyat from prison, instead convincing the authorities to accept Kolyat for Community Service. From here the first glimpse of Thane as a man who had loved and lost a wife and failed to raise a child was continued afterwards in his shipboard discussions. These conversations further extrapolated Thane’s relationship with his wife, how she died, and how Thane had hunted those responsible. They revealed a man who deeply held spiritual beliefs, and had a romantic, even flirtatious nature. It was a personality juxtapositioned with the job he had been trained for since he had been a child. Thane opens up to the world, and even tries to re-establish a relationship with his son. For a female Shepard, the conversation choices the player made also lead to the possibility of the third complete character arc: a Romanced Thane.
As a romanced character Thane truly moved on from his wife’s murder, and opened up to the possibility of a new relationship with Shepard. He even granted her a new name: Siha, which in his language meant “Warrior Angle,” beings similar to Norse Valkyries. At this point Thane’s third role became truly apparent: the avatar for the ill.
Thane’s response to his terminal diagnosis was the main differing factor between the character arcs. Before he joined Shepard Thane was seeking redemption. His lifetime of killing on behalf of the hanar and his choice to hunt and kill his wife’s murderers were deeds he felt he needed forgiveness for. He hunted Nassana because the skills he had were those of an assassin, and he chose to hunt the worst of society, to “eliminate evil” and “make the galaxy a brighter place” before he finally died. After a failed Loyalty Mission, Thane becomes depressed, even suicidal, no longer believing that his gods would forgive him when he died. After a successful Loyalty Mission, with either a male or a befriended female Shepard, Thane appears to still accept his death, yet wishes to use what time he had left to re-establish a relationship with his son.
Yet at the commencement of his romance arc, this all changed. During the romance scene before the Omega-4 Relay Thane confessed to Shepard that his years of preparation were all for naught. He was now afraid to die, and he was ashamed of it (Figure One). When the Lair of the Shadow Broker DLC was introduced romancing players then learned that Thane’s new fear was because of Shepard. The Goodbye Letter (Figure Two) Thane wrote for Shepard, to be read after his death, detailed how Thane had prepared for his death since his diagnosis. He wrote of how his guilt over the death of Irikah and his abandonment of Kolyat drove his quest for redemption. Most importantly he wrote of how falling in love with Shepard changed everything. He wrote of how he wanted to be with her, to protect her. He fully awoke from his battle sleep because of her, and solely so that he could do so.
In short, by the end of the Mass Effect 2 romance arc, Thane Krios wanted to live!
Lair of the Shadow Broker DLC
The Lair of the Shadow Broker dossiers offered both personal and professional insights into the Mass Effect 2 squadmates. All of the dossiers further developed their characters. Players learnt that both Kasumi and Jack were amateur poets, that Legion was a gamer, that Miranda longed to have children. Love Interests had extra files in their dossiers, such as the chat transcript between Garrus and his sister.
Thane’s dossier, if chosen as the Love Interest, contained the aforementioned Goodbye Letter (Figure Two). All players received two files: a threat assessment by the previous Shadow Broker, including a list of Thane’s kill, and a medical report, complete by the Normandy’s Chief of Medicine, Doctor Chakwas.
The threat assessment proved Thane to be as skilled an assassin as the player was led to believe. His kill list alone proved that he was highly skilled in melee combat, and liked to get up close and personal with his targets.
Most important for both the Loyal Friend and Romance character arcs was Thane’s attached medical report. Though it players learnt that Thane’s individual case of Kepral’s Syndrome was more serious than his presence on the team would have them believe. Interestingly, and importantly, it also contained a possible treatment for Thane’s case of Kepral’s Syndrome.
The timeline for the medical report could be interpreted two different ways. From the perspective of the Loyal Friend arc the medical report could have been written at any time. There was no in-game dialogue to suggest that Thane’s acceptance of his upcoming death had changed. That is completely the opposite for the Romanced Thane arc. The overall tone of the letter attached to his dossier was one of deep sadness, regret, and desire not just for life, but for a life with his lover.
Such desire is at odds with the tone of the medical report. It has a tone of despair, fried, and above all hopelessness. The longing for life in the Goodbye Letter, and his refusal of the lung transplant in the medical report, suggest to the romancing players that the report was written when Thane first boarded the Normandy, before he entered a relationship with Shepard.
The Goodbye Letter attached to the romanced Thane’s dossier, also reveals more of his psyche to the player. The letter confirms player assumptions that Thane’s belief that he failed to protect Irikah and Kolyt was what led him to accept his death. It also contains Thane’s final wish: to die fighting, rather than to allow his Kepral’s to run its full course and die in a hospital bed, permanently attached to life support machinery. Finally he prays to his goddess for her protection of Shepard after he died, and declares that he would wait for her in the afterlife.
Player Reactions to Thane Krios in Mass Effect 2
Player reactions for the Thane Krios character in Mass Effect 2 were varied, depending on the character arc the player chose for Thane.
Players who failed his loyalty mission were generally disgusted with the character. They emulated Shepard’s reaction to his depressed state, viewing it as selfish, defeatist, and counter-productive, giving their current circumstances.
Reactions for the loyal friend and romance arcs often fell into two categories: love or hate. Some players were put off by the fact that fact that he actively practiced his religion, that his logic patterns were more “alien” than the other alien squadmates. Others were intimidated by the fact that he had a family, had been married, and loved another before Shepard. Some were put off by his purpose as the female alien love interest, finding him to be a stereotypical romance-novel character. Some didn’t like that he had a disease, and chose not to investigate the character because of it. Others still had just played Mass Effect 1 first, were simply used to the two returning squad members, and were unreceptive to the new characters of Mass Effect 2.
These factors were ironically what drew fans to the character. His religion and logic patterns were puzzles to be solved. His childhood elicited emotions of sympathy and indignation on his behalf. His life with Irikah, his widowed state, and inability to relate to his son mirrored the life experiences of many more mature players. He was a fully-fledged, capable character in his own right. Unlike other characters, he didn’t need Shepard’s help, if he did appreciate the moral support. All of these factors were what led many of those fans to romance him. The fact that he had a disease was irrelevant to them, even though it paralleled the potential loss of a loved one that all people inevitably experience. They were fans of Thane due to his character, not because he needed to be fixed.
Whispers in the Tide
A Comparison of the Character Arcs of Thane Krios in Mass Effects 2 and 3
“An assassin? You’ve got to be ****ing kidding me! How many people does the Illusive Man think I need?”
“Would I even be able to use him? Assassins aren’t exactly the most social of individuals, or the most stable. Am I going to have another Jack or Grunt on my hands? Is he going to be another sociopath I have to keep a tight leash on?”
“You say you want this Nassana dead, yet you’re just giving me this information? You’re not worried that I might try to stop him?”
“Nassana ordered the mercs to just start shooting? I guess that must mean she knows he’s coming. Pity. Looks like I’ll have to help keep him alive.”
“What the hell?! You arrogant ass! Drop a body on me, indeed. I swear, if I didn’t need you…”
“Another group of workers? What is he doing? What point could there be in a cold-blooded killer saving civilians?”
“More mercs? Really, Nassana, is this one lone assassin really enough to warrant this much security, or are you just that paranoid?”
“Name my price? Ah yes, I remember you now, you self-absorbed, hate-filled ****. Of course you think you can buy me off. Money solves everything for you, doesn’t it? You’re entire life has ridden on a tide of credits, buying you a way out of anything. Well, not this time, Nassana. Not this time.”
A rumble in the vents, a man drops to the floor; three guards are down within seconds. A gun taken from the enemy is pressed into the criminal’s stomach. He fires, the shot silenced by the woman’s flesh as he cradles her against his chest. Gently he lays her across her desk, reverently placing her arms across her chest as she chokes on her final breath.
The sun rises over the horizon. Pale morning light filters through old-fashioned blinds, turning bright summer-green scales a deep golden-brown. He bows his head, his hands clasped in prayer, and whispers words over the laid-out corpse.
A statement is made, a question asked. An answer: “Not for her. For me.”
And thus the world was introduced to Thane Krios…
***
This was a fitting introduction to a complex character. In the few minutes he was present during his recruitment mission, Thane Krios presented multiple facets to his mentality. These complimentary, yet seemingly contrary, traits revealed that prior to many player’s beliefs, the assassin was not a two-dimensional character. Player choices and playstyles throughout the rest of the game allowed for the development of three potential character arcs. All of which had radically different outcomes for the Thane Krios character, and those tied to him.
The following pages detail player reactions to the Thane Krios character in Mass Effect 2, the discrepancies between his character arcs in Mass Effects 2 and 3, and the players’ reactions to Thane’s treatment in Mass Effect 3.
Thane Krios in Mass Effect 2
Character Arcs
From his introduction on Illium, through the remainder of the game, players were given the option to develop one of three complete, yet radically different character arcs for Thane Krios: an Unloyal Thane, a Loyal Friend, and a Romanced Thane.
Thane had two roles in Mass Effect 2, that of the alien love interest, which inspired his and his species’ creation, and that of the avatar for the new Drell species. Before the commencement of his Loyalty Mission Thane appeared solely as the avatar. Through his conversations he revealed many parallels between Drell and human environmental practices and industrial expansion. He also explains the socio-political effects of the Hanar rescuing the Drell, including how he came to be an assassin, and the details of Kepral’s Syndrome.
The beginning of his role as a potential love interest started at the commencement of his Loyalty Mission. Therein players learnt how his life as an assassin affected him as a man. His job eventually led to the murder of his wife by slave traders. This in turn led to Thane placing his son in the care of others, and being absent from his life for over a decade. In the end his son, Kolyat, learnt of his father’s history and moved to the Citadel to take a job as an assassin. Thane found out about it, and determined to save his son from what he believes to be “a life of sin.” From here Shepard and Thane attempted to stop Kolyat from assassinating a turian politician. The outcome of this mission was what determined the first two character arcs for Thane: Unloyal Thane, or Loyal Friend.
The first complete character arc, the Unloyal Thane arc, occurred should Thane and Shepard had failed to save Kolyat and the turian politician. This turned Thane into a man buried under tides of remorse, regret, and guilt over his past actions. He went from accepting his death to longing for it, though he gave players the impression that he did not believe the afterlife would be kind to him. He died during the suicide mission, either on the Normandy (if the Canon was not upgraded) or on the Collector Base itself. If he led a group, those following him also died. Only Thane’s name appeared on the Memorial Board in Mass Effect 3.
The second complete character arc resulted from a successful Loyalty Mission, where Thane and Shepard successfully intervene and prevent Kolyat for executing his mark. Shepard also saves Kolyat from prison, instead convincing the authorities to accept Kolyat for Community Service. From here the first glimpse of Thane as a man who had loved and lost a wife and failed to raise a child was continued afterwards in his shipboard discussions. These conversations further extrapolated Thane’s relationship with his wife, how she died, and how Thane had hunted those responsible. They revealed a man who deeply held spiritual beliefs, and had a romantic, even flirtatious nature. It was a personality juxtapositioned with the job he had been trained for since he had been a child. Thane opens up to the world, and even tries to re-establish a relationship with his son. For a female Shepard, the conversation choices the player made also lead to the possibility of the third complete character arc: a Romanced Thane.
As a romanced character Thane truly moved on from his wife’s murder, and opened up to the possibility of a new relationship with Shepard. He even granted her a new name: Siha, which in his language meant “Warrior Angle,” beings similar to Norse Valkyries. At this point Thane’s third role became truly apparent: the avatar for the ill.
Thane’s response to his terminal diagnosis was the main differing factor between the character arcs. Before he joined Shepard Thane was seeking redemption. His lifetime of killing on behalf of the hanar and his choice to hunt and kill his wife’s murderers were deeds he felt he needed forgiveness for. He hunted Nassana because the skills he had were those of an assassin, and he chose to hunt the worst of society, to “eliminate evil” and “make the galaxy a brighter place” before he finally died. After a failed Loyalty Mission, Thane becomes depressed, even suicidal, no longer believing that his gods would forgive him when he died. After a successful Loyalty Mission, with either a male or a befriended female Shepard, Thane appears to still accept his death, yet wishes to use what time he had left to re-establish a relationship with his son.
Yet at the commencement of his romance arc, this all changed. During the romance scene before the Omega-4 Relay Thane confessed to Shepard that his years of preparation were all for naught. He was now afraid to die, and he was ashamed of it (Figure One). When the Lair of the Shadow Broker DLC was introduced romancing players then learned that Thane’s new fear was because of Shepard. The Goodbye Letter (Figure Two) Thane wrote for Shepard, to be read after his death, detailed how Thane had prepared for his death since his diagnosis. He wrote of how his guilt over the death of Irikah and his abandonment of Kolyat drove his quest for redemption. Most importantly he wrote of how falling in love with Shepard changed everything. He wrote of how he wanted to be with her, to protect her. He fully awoke from his battle sleep because of her, and solely so that he could do so.
In short, by the end of the Mass Effect 2 romance arc, Thane Krios wanted to live!
Lair of the Shadow Broker DLC
The Lair of the Shadow Broker dossiers offered both personal and professional insights into the Mass Effect 2 squadmates. All of the dossiers further developed their characters. Players learnt that both Kasumi and Jack were amateur poets, that Legion was a gamer, that Miranda longed to have children. Love Interests had extra files in their dossiers, such as the chat transcript between Garrus and his sister.
Thane’s dossier, if chosen as the Love Interest, contained the aforementioned Goodbye Letter (Figure Two). All players received two files: a threat assessment by the previous Shadow Broker, including a list of Thane’s kill, and a medical report, complete by the Normandy’s Chief of Medicine, Doctor Chakwas.
The threat assessment proved Thane to be as skilled an assassin as the player was led to believe. His kill list alone proved that he was highly skilled in melee combat, and liked to get up close and personal with his targets.
Most important for both the Loyal Friend and Romance character arcs was Thane’s attached medical report. Though it players learnt that Thane’s individual case of Kepral’s Syndrome was more serious than his presence on the team would have them believe. Interestingly, and importantly, it also contained a possible treatment for Thane’s case of Kepral’s Syndrome.
The timeline for the medical report could be interpreted two different ways. From the perspective of the Loyal Friend arc the medical report could have been written at any time. There was no in-game dialogue to suggest that Thane’s acceptance of his upcoming death had changed. That is completely the opposite for the Romanced Thane arc. The overall tone of the letter attached to his dossier was one of deep sadness, regret, and desire not just for life, but for a life with his lover.
Such desire is at odds with the tone of the medical report. It has a tone of despair, fried, and above all hopelessness. The longing for life in the Goodbye Letter, and his refusal of the lung transplant in the medical report, suggest to the romancing players that the report was written when Thane first boarded the Normandy, before he entered a relationship with Shepard.
The Goodbye Letter attached to the romanced Thane’s dossier, also reveals more of his psyche to the player. The letter confirms player assumptions that Thane’s belief that he failed to protect Irikah and Kolyt was what led him to accept his death. It also contains Thane’s final wish: to die fighting, rather than to allow his Kepral’s to run its full course and die in a hospital bed, permanently attached to life support machinery. Finally he prays to his goddess for her protection of Shepard after he died, and declares that he would wait for her in the afterlife.
Player Reactions to Thane Krios in Mass Effect 2
Player reactions for the Thane Krios character in Mass Effect 2 were varied, depending on the character arc the player chose for Thane.
Players who failed his loyalty mission were generally disgusted with the character. They emulated Shepard’s reaction to his depressed state, viewing it as selfish, defeatist, and counter-productive, giving their current circumstances.
Reactions for the loyal friend and romance arcs often fell into two categories: love or hate. Some players were put off by the fact that fact that he actively practiced his religion, that his logic patterns were more “alien” than the other alien squadmates. Others were intimidated by the fact that he had a family, had been married, and loved another before Shepard. Some were put off by his purpose as the female alien love interest, finding him to be a stereotypical romance-novel character. Some didn’t like that he had a disease, and chose not to investigate the character because of it. Others still had just played Mass Effect 1 first, were simply used to the two returning squad members, and were unreceptive to the new characters of Mass Effect 2.
These factors were ironically what drew fans to the character. His religion and logic patterns were puzzles to be solved. His childhood elicited emotions of sympathy and indignation on his behalf. His life with Irikah, his widowed state, and inability to relate to his son mirrored the life experiences of many more mature players. He was a fully-fledged, capable character in his own right. Unlike other characters, he didn’t need Shepard’s help, if he did appreciate the moral support. All of these factors were what led many of those fans to romance him. The fact that he had a disease was irrelevant to them, even though it paralleled the potential loss of a loved one that all people inevitably experience. They were fans of Thane due to his character, not because he needed to be fixed.
#530
Posté 01 mars 2013 - 06:07
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I don't like Thane much at all, but I agree that his implementation in ME3 was very underwhelming, unfair, and nonsensical. Unfair especially in the context of a grand total of 2 successful heterosexual romances for female Shepard (and both of which could easily be unavailable due to virmire, suicide mission). Meanwhile male Shepard gets at least 5, not counting the flings.
Last I read Bioware's excuse was that they forgot about Thane's romance. Seriously?
Thane goes from having something to live for to resigning himself to death. Then he fights someone with a sword bare handed (where's his pistol or sniper rifle? - isn't he supposed to be a master at hiding in the shadows?) and Kirrahe who is supposed to be a bodyguard is nowhere to be found.
Last I read Bioware's excuse was that they forgot about Thane's romance. Seriously?
Thane goes from having something to live for to resigning himself to death. Then he fights someone with a sword bare handed (where's his pistol or sniper rifle? - isn't he supposed to be a master at hiding in the shadows?) and Kirrahe who is supposed to be a bodyguard is nowhere to be found.
#531
Posté 01 mars 2013 - 06:08
Han Shot First
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RShara wrote...
I have to ask again. Why are you guys so against people having an OPTION to have Thane's life extended to the end of the game?
You're happy with the way he has been treated? Great, you don't have to take that option. The great thing about an OPTION is that it's OPTIONAL. You can have the story go the way YOU want it, and we can have the story go the way WE want it.
Then everyone is happy. And there are scenarios that make it plausible.
Why is this such a horrible thing?
In general or the DLC?
I have different answers for both.
For the DLC I'm actually in favor of having an option to save Thane, but only if Bioware can write in a scenario where the player suffers just as big a loss in Thane's stead. What I'm against is a get-out-of-jail-free card, where the player can resolve every situation without there being consequences. I think good storytelling then gets sacrificed in trade.
The problem with giving an option to save Thane without someone else dying in his stead, or some other negative consequence that is equally impactful emotionally, is that it then cheapens that death bed scene in Huerta Memorial. It would then be a scene that only occured when Shepard committed some blunder that was directly responsible for Thane's death. Any emotional impact that scene may have previously had is now removed by making Shepard the cause of Thane's death, rather than Kai Leng.
Modifié par Han Shot First, 01 mars 2013 - 06:09 .
#532
Posté 01 mars 2013 - 06:09
Rinji the Bearded
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RShara wrote...
I have to ask again. Why are you guys so against people having an OPTION to have Thane's life extended to the end of the game?
You're happy with the way he has been treated? Great, you don't have to take that option. The great thing about an OPTION is that it's OPTIONAL. You can have the story go the way YOU want it, and we can have the story go the way WE want it.
Then everyone is happy. And there are scenarios that make it plausible.
Why is this such a horrible thing?
Because you don't seem to respect the fact that Thane had a terminal illness. That's like giving a dying cancer patient a shot of feel-good-juice so you can see them just a little longer. What would have extending his life done for you? He was going to die no matter what. You already knew that. So, what? Another scene in the hospital, his disease finally doing him in? He would have been in no shape to fight the Reapers by the end of the game, given the extent of his injuries.
Also, making it *~OPTIONAL~* to extend a dying man's life just seems sort of insensitive and wrong.
#533
Posté 01 mars 2013 - 06:10
radishson
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David7204 wrote...
Those was no foreshadowing that Miranda or Jack would die. There was a tiny bit for Tali, but it was explicitly referred to as a small possibility. Mordin even encourages it, and he knows a lot more about biology than Tali does.
Thane's death was pretty much declared to be a certainty.
yes, the point is that they would have never risked perma!death for a male LI option in the first place. What about Jacob cheating on Shep? Was there any foreshadowing? So now we have not one, but TWO discarded Femshep LIs, leaving only two left in the entire game. Meanwhile, hetero options are ADDED for Broshep. Is blatant disregard for a portion of the game's audience still just "realistic storytelling"?
Seriously, why are you people still here? I mean, you do realise you're just rehashing the same old arguments Thane fans have been refuting and explaining ad nauseam the entire past year, right?
Modifié par radishson, 01 mars 2013 - 06:11 .
#534
Posté 01 mars 2013 - 06:10
mythlover20
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introduction to the Thane in ME3 section, ongoing cause it is a **** to write.
Thane Krios in Mass Effect 3
Contrary to Mass Effect 2, the Thane Krios character in Mass Effect 3 has no character arc, no development, nor any real purpose. Once he was a man and the avatar for a species whose environmental, political and social history drew multiple parallels with humanity’s own. In Mass Effect 3 he was an inconvenience, and thus drew only one parallel. None of his previous character arcs were continued, and there was little correlation between the two incarnations of the character. He was in short a hollow, two-dimensional shadow of his former self.
Thane Krios was found shadow-boxing in the lobby of the Huerta Memorial Hospital on the Citadel’s Presidium, appearing there only after he sent Shepard an encrypted message. He and Shepard had one conversation, where he stated that he was too ill and infirm to rejoin the Normandy’s crew. This theme was repeated in all three of his dialogue options (four for a Romanced Thane import). The conversation ended with a generic goodbye, and Thane continued to sit and stare out the window.
This conversation was repeated almost word-for-word whenever the player tried to initialise further conversation with the character. There was no new dialogue available between Shepard and Thane, no matter the relationship they had during Mass Effect 2.
Thane’s next appearance was during the Citadel Coup. The incapacitated, terminally ill assassin notified Shepard of the Cerberus attack. The player then encounters Thane halfway through the following mission. Thane had made his way from the hospital to the C-Sec Academy, and arrived in time to prevent the murder of the Salarian Councillor. He then engaged in melee combat with the Cerberus assassin Kai Leng, despite his opponent being armed with a katana. Thane was mortally wounded. Shepard chased after Kai Leng, and Thane followed to the lower deck before collapsing. Shepard then called for a medical evacuation for Thane, and pursued Leng, leaving Thane without immediate assistance and without offering medigel for his wounds.
Thane’s final appearance was after the Coup, and was where his son Kolyat Krios made his first and only appearance. Shepard arrived at the hospital to be told by a doctor that while Thane had been operated on, he was not going to survive, and for Shepard and the player to say their goodbyes. Shepard enters Thane’s room to find Kolyat with his father. Shepard and Thane conversed, their scripted conversation centring on his actions during the Coup, and his resulting upcoming death. Thane then prayed, before succumbing to a coughing fit. Kolyat finished the prayer, and initiated a second. Thane then appeared to die. Kolyat stated when asked that the second prayer was for Shepard, regardless of the relationship between Shepard and his father. Shepard finally said goodbye, and left.
The player was reminded of Thane’s existence only once after his death: at the end of the Cerberus Base mission, when Shepard killed Kai Leng. There was no further contact with Kolyat after Thane’s death. There were no conversations with squad mates or new love interests about Thane, whether or not Thane was the Mass Effect 2 Love Interest, other than the allegations of unfaithfulness made by Kaidan Alenko if he was the Mass Effect 1 Love Interest. Unless the Extended Cut DLC was added to the game, Shepard didn’t even remember him when he or she died, despite Thane being the only potential Love Interest whose death was guaranteed.
The Discontinued Character Arcs
Thane Krios in Mass Effect 2 had multiple arcs. The two that could be imported had resulted in radically different viewpoints regarding his death and those around him. This essentially resulted in two different characters. As such, what may have been an appropriate reaction for the Loyal Friend Thane may not have been appropriate for a Romanced Thane. Despite this, both character arcs were given the same dialogue, and both of these Thanes and Shepard had the same actions and reactions to the various situations they were in. Often what players were presented with did not make sense for the characters the player had developed, and the relationship their Shepard had with Thane.
The Importance of Interactive Dialogue
The interpretation of these different relationships between Thane Krios and Shepard, and thus the player, was determined by the dialogue choices made by the player. This role playing was only possible due to the interactive nature of the dialogue wheel. This allowed the player to choose between a kind, neutral, or cruel responses within their conversations, and even direct the conversation towards a certain outcome. Allowing the player to control the conversation meant that each player developed different personalities for their Shepards, and thus had a slightly different relationship with Thane Krios in Mass Effect 2.
Thus, with the change to automatic dialogue in Mass Effect 3, player characters were continually forced into a singular role. Interactions were almost completely scripted, and roleplaying freedom was drastically reduced. Players found their Shepard behaving in ways contrary to the personality they had established in the previous two games. Shepard would be kind instead of cruel, hurt when they would once have helped, flirt with characters their players found repulsive. Shepard’s even argued opposing sides of arguments. More often than not, those who moved on from their Mass Effect 1 Love Interest found their character ignoring their Mass Effect 2 love Interest in favour of the first. Worse, female Shepards also mewled, cowered, and apologised if during Mass Effect 2 the player chose to move on from the male Mass Effect 1 Love Interest, when previously she would have fought against his unfounded accusations.
This was obvious with Thane Krios romance import. Players’ characters continually acted as if they did not have a friendship with Thane, whether they did or not. The one and only interactive piece of dialogue which acknowledged the possible romance forced player’s Shepards to treat their relationship with Thane as little more than a cheap one-night stand. In both instances this was confirmed by the scripted responses for Thane, all of which focused solely on his disease and death. No mention was of the events within Mass Effect 2, or more importantly, of Mass Effect 2’s Lair of the Shadow Broker dossier contents.
As Shepard’s actions and dialogue helped shape the character arcs of Thane Krios such changes in the core experience had not only a negative effect on the player character, but the Thane Krios character as well.
Thane Krios in Mass Effect 3
Contrary to Mass Effect 2, the Thane Krios character in Mass Effect 3 has no character arc, no development, nor any real purpose. Once he was a man and the avatar for a species whose environmental, political and social history drew multiple parallels with humanity’s own. In Mass Effect 3 he was an inconvenience, and thus drew only one parallel. None of his previous character arcs were continued, and there was little correlation between the two incarnations of the character. He was in short a hollow, two-dimensional shadow of his former self.
Thane Krios was found shadow-boxing in the lobby of the Huerta Memorial Hospital on the Citadel’s Presidium, appearing there only after he sent Shepard an encrypted message. He and Shepard had one conversation, where he stated that he was too ill and infirm to rejoin the Normandy’s crew. This theme was repeated in all three of his dialogue options (four for a Romanced Thane import). The conversation ended with a generic goodbye, and Thane continued to sit and stare out the window.
This conversation was repeated almost word-for-word whenever the player tried to initialise further conversation with the character. There was no new dialogue available between Shepard and Thane, no matter the relationship they had during Mass Effect 2.
Thane’s next appearance was during the Citadel Coup. The incapacitated, terminally ill assassin notified Shepard of the Cerberus attack. The player then encounters Thane halfway through the following mission. Thane had made his way from the hospital to the C-Sec Academy, and arrived in time to prevent the murder of the Salarian Councillor. He then engaged in melee combat with the Cerberus assassin Kai Leng, despite his opponent being armed with a katana. Thane was mortally wounded. Shepard chased after Kai Leng, and Thane followed to the lower deck before collapsing. Shepard then called for a medical evacuation for Thane, and pursued Leng, leaving Thane without immediate assistance and without offering medigel for his wounds.
Thane’s final appearance was after the Coup, and was where his son Kolyat Krios made his first and only appearance. Shepard arrived at the hospital to be told by a doctor that while Thane had been operated on, he was not going to survive, and for Shepard and the player to say their goodbyes. Shepard enters Thane’s room to find Kolyat with his father. Shepard and Thane conversed, their scripted conversation centring on his actions during the Coup, and his resulting upcoming death. Thane then prayed, before succumbing to a coughing fit. Kolyat finished the prayer, and initiated a second. Thane then appeared to die. Kolyat stated when asked that the second prayer was for Shepard, regardless of the relationship between Shepard and his father. Shepard finally said goodbye, and left.
The player was reminded of Thane’s existence only once after his death: at the end of the Cerberus Base mission, when Shepard killed Kai Leng. There was no further contact with Kolyat after Thane’s death. There were no conversations with squad mates or new love interests about Thane, whether or not Thane was the Mass Effect 2 Love Interest, other than the allegations of unfaithfulness made by Kaidan Alenko if he was the Mass Effect 1 Love Interest. Unless the Extended Cut DLC was added to the game, Shepard didn’t even remember him when he or she died, despite Thane being the only potential Love Interest whose death was guaranteed.
The Discontinued Character Arcs
Thane Krios in Mass Effect 2 had multiple arcs. The two that could be imported had resulted in radically different viewpoints regarding his death and those around him. This essentially resulted in two different characters. As such, what may have been an appropriate reaction for the Loyal Friend Thane may not have been appropriate for a Romanced Thane. Despite this, both character arcs were given the same dialogue, and both of these Thanes and Shepard had the same actions and reactions to the various situations they were in. Often what players were presented with did not make sense for the characters the player had developed, and the relationship their Shepard had with Thane.
The Importance of Interactive Dialogue
The interpretation of these different relationships between Thane Krios and Shepard, and thus the player, was determined by the dialogue choices made by the player. This role playing was only possible due to the interactive nature of the dialogue wheel. This allowed the player to choose between a kind, neutral, or cruel responses within their conversations, and even direct the conversation towards a certain outcome. Allowing the player to control the conversation meant that each player developed different personalities for their Shepards, and thus had a slightly different relationship with Thane Krios in Mass Effect 2.
Thus, with the change to automatic dialogue in Mass Effect 3, player characters were continually forced into a singular role. Interactions were almost completely scripted, and roleplaying freedom was drastically reduced. Players found their Shepard behaving in ways contrary to the personality they had established in the previous two games. Shepard would be kind instead of cruel, hurt when they would once have helped, flirt with characters their players found repulsive. Shepard’s even argued opposing sides of arguments. More often than not, those who moved on from their Mass Effect 1 Love Interest found their character ignoring their Mass Effect 2 love Interest in favour of the first. Worse, female Shepards also mewled, cowered, and apologised if during Mass Effect 2 the player chose to move on from the male Mass Effect 1 Love Interest, when previously she would have fought against his unfounded accusations.
This was obvious with Thane Krios romance import. Players’ characters continually acted as if they did not have a friendship with Thane, whether they did or not. The one and only interactive piece of dialogue which acknowledged the possible romance forced player’s Shepards to treat their relationship with Thane as little more than a cheap one-night stand. In both instances this was confirmed by the scripted responses for Thane, all of which focused solely on his disease and death. No mention was of the events within Mass Effect 2, or more importantly, of Mass Effect 2’s Lair of the Shadow Broker dossier contents.
As Shepard’s actions and dialogue helped shape the character arcs of Thane Krios such changes in the core experience had not only a negative effect on the player character, but the Thane Krios character as well.
#535
Posté 01 mars 2013 - 06:11
Rinji the Bearded
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radishson wrote...
Seriously, why are you people still here? I mean, you do realise you're just rehashing the same old arguments Thane fans have been refuting and explaining ad nauseam the entire past year, right?
Because threads are a place for discussion, and not an echo chamber. Not everyone has to agree, we just have to remain on topic.
#536
Posté 01 mars 2013 - 06:13
mythlover20
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Me2 Kepral's Syndrome section of the essay, reposted. Additional medical information from Dr R C (to protect from possible ident theft), medical researcher. Also contains the forshadowed curers.
Kepral’s Syndrome
Kepral’s Syndrome was the most important external factor influencing the Thane Krios character. It was what initially motivated him to hunt Nassana Dantias and her ilk, and it was made him join Shepard’s “Suicide Mission” beyond the Omega-4 Relay. It helped motivate him to save his son by way of making reparation for his past mistakes. It was also what gave the romance between Thane Krios and Shepard its bittersweet emotional tone. It made Thane Krios not only the avatar for a new species, but also the avatar for every person who had been diagnosed with a terminal disease. It also indirectly made Shepard and Kolyat Krios the avatars for every person with a terminally ill loved one.
It was therefore vital that the details of Kepral’s Syndrome be consistent between Mass Effects 2 and 3 and the larger Mass Effect universe. Unfortunately the details in Mass Effect 3 were anything but consistent with the lore established in Mass Effect 2 and its Downloadable Content. The disease that was described by one Mass Effect writer as similar to Cystic Fibrosis had become Sickle Cell Disease in all but name. There was no exposition regarding the change, or how it was possible within the Mass Effect universe.
The change in Kepral’s Syndrome, its ineffective application, and the disregard of established lore contributed largely to the degradation of the Thane Krios character. As all foreshadowed options to effectively treat the disease relied on the consistency of the disease, the change also eliminated a narratively feasible option to prolong the life of Thane Kriosr, and give hope to his species as a whole.
Kepral’s Syndrome in Mass Effect 2
Kepral’s Syndrome was first introduced in Mass Effect 2 alongside the Thane Krios character. It was also this character who first offered players details of the disease.
Within his repeatable “Investigate” dialogue option Thane Krios explained that Kepral’s Syndrome was a degenerative lung disease (Figure……). His species, reptiles native to an arid desert world, were unable to adapt to the humid and primarily aquatic environment of their Hanar benefactor’s homeworld, Kahje. Their lungs were unable to cope with the excess moisture. Eventually their lungs began to lose the ability to process oxygen. The more they exposed themselves to humid environments, the faster the condition deteriorated. From Thane’s dialogue players also learned that while the disease could be treated, all prognoses were terminal.
The Lair of the Shadow Broker Downloadable Content added further details of Kepral’s Syndrome via a medical report written by Dr Karin Chakwas (Figure…). In addition to the lung tissue degradation there were also metastatic legions, which in Thane’s individual case had formed on the lungs, heart, and other major organs. Antibiotic treatment suggested that a sufferer was also susceptible to bacterial infections, or that Kepral’s Syndrome itself was a bacterial disease. Further treatment therapies recommended physical exercises, and advised against stationary activities, in order to prevent further degradation of lung tissue.
It was later revealed by BioWare writer Patrick Weekes that Kepral’s Syndrome was based on the human genetic disorder Cystic Fibrosis (Figure ….) a genetic mutation causing thick mucus levels within the lungs. This revelation supported the symptoms of, and treatments for, Kepral’s Syndrome revealed thus far. The lung degradation, bacterial infections, and even the antibiotics and physical therapy were consistent with the symptoms of, and treatments for, Cystic Fibrosis.
Even though there were not enough details in Mass Effect 2 to pinpoint the exact nature of Kepral’s Syndrome, this comparison allowed fans to assume that Kepral’s Syndrome acted in a manner similar to Cystic Fibrosis. The more medically-minded of Thane fans deduced Kepral’s Syndrome to be the formation of a thick mucus layer in the lungs, caused by excess humidity instead of a genetic mutation. This conclusion was drawn because a bacterial disease would be transmittable between drell, and Thane had stated during his first ship-board conversation that the disease was uncommunicable (Figure…).
Yet despite the fatal nature of the disease, there was still hope for a Drell diagnosed with Kepral’s Syndrome.
Allusions and Avenues to a Treatment or Cure
While Kepral’s Syndrome was considered to be terminal, multiple treatments and possible cures were also provided in Mass Effect 2 and its subsequent DLCs. Yet lore established outside of the games also offered potential treatments for Kepral’s Syndrome. Both the Mass Effect novels, written by former lead writer Drew Karpyshyn, and the BioWare-run Cerberus Daily News website offered treatments and avenues for their use within the game.
The first option for the cure of Kepral’s Syndrome was mentioned during Thane Krios’s repeatable Normandy dialogue. As he explained the cause, symptoms, eventual prognosis, and scale of infection, he also acknowledged the hope of his species. The Drell’s Hanar benefactors were beginning to establish a genetic therapy designed to adapt Drell lung tissue to Kahje’s humid environment (Figure…). Should it prove successful, it would eventually eradicate the disease amongst the drell. It would however be unviable for an adult already diagnosed with the disease.
The second treatment option for Kepral’s Syndrome was offered as part of Thane Krios’s Lair of the Shadow Broker dossier. Within his medical report the Normandy’s Chief of Medicine noted that Thane was a viable candidate for a lung transplant (Figure…). As the avatar for the Drell species, players felt it safe to presume that any treatment for Thane would be viable for all Drell with the disease. While this treatment would give the recipient a longer life, it was not in and of itself a cure. The new lungs would still be susceptible to Kepral’s Syndrome, and reinfection would still occur. It also would not treat any metastatic lesions on the other organs. The transplant was therefore merely to offer a longer life, and a greater quality of life. Kepral’s Syndrome was still eventually terminal.
The third possible treatment appeared outside the game. In the first novel, Mass Effect: Revelations, Batarians were the galactic leaders in the medical field. The use of cloned organs was routine practice (Figure...). Unfortunately the synthetic generation of drell lung tissue was not possible at the time the report was written. This was, however, still a possible development in the treatment of the disease.
Less than six months after the release of Mass Effect 2 reports of a respiratory treatment appeared on the Cerberus Daily News website. The “Eupumos Device,” nicknamed “medi-gel for the lungs” (Figure…) delivered both medication and microscopic surgical machines to the patient’s lungs via the nasal passages. Viable for both dextro- and levo-amino acid based species, the device was a lauded success. For the drell species, this treatment would be useful only once the disease had been contracted. Reinfection would still be possible. A lasting effect would be dependent on continued use of the Eupumos Device.
Players were also able to determine other potential avenues for the establishment or distribution of these treatments or cures. The Batarian cloning technology would likely have been sold on the galactic black market, allowing hanar access to the technology. A breakthrough could have easily been made by one of the Illuminated Primacy’s genetic research programs. The Eupumos Device, which had been bought or appropriated by the Turian military, could have been offered by the Hierarchy as reparation for their lack of assistance in preventing the destruction of the Hanar colony world Belan.
Failing that, there were the avenues that had not been foreshadowed. There was Mordin Solus, the Salarian scientist who modified the Krogan Genophage to ensure continued control over their population growth. There was Dr. Liara T’Soni, the new Shadow Broker, whom had all the information in the Galaxy at her fingertips, and had her own relationship with a drell susceptible to Kepral’s Sndrome. There was even Cerberus, who could have relatively easily adapted the technology they used to revive Shepard’s excessively damaged corpse to drell biology, if given enough cause.
Given the many and varied treatments and methods of implementing them, foreshadowed within established lore, players felt the possibility of a life-prolonging treatment for drell diagnosed with Kepral’s Syndrome was not at all narratively unfeasible. After BioWare posted a Campaign on their Facebook page entreating fans to support curing Thane (Figure…), players also believed the optional use of these potential treatments to be guaranteed.
Kepral’s Syndrome
Kepral’s Syndrome was the most important external factor influencing the Thane Krios character. It was what initially motivated him to hunt Nassana Dantias and her ilk, and it was made him join Shepard’s “Suicide Mission” beyond the Omega-4 Relay. It helped motivate him to save his son by way of making reparation for his past mistakes. It was also what gave the romance between Thane Krios and Shepard its bittersweet emotional tone. It made Thane Krios not only the avatar for a new species, but also the avatar for every person who had been diagnosed with a terminal disease. It also indirectly made Shepard and Kolyat Krios the avatars for every person with a terminally ill loved one.
It was therefore vital that the details of Kepral’s Syndrome be consistent between Mass Effects 2 and 3 and the larger Mass Effect universe. Unfortunately the details in Mass Effect 3 were anything but consistent with the lore established in Mass Effect 2 and its Downloadable Content. The disease that was described by one Mass Effect writer as similar to Cystic Fibrosis had become Sickle Cell Disease in all but name. There was no exposition regarding the change, or how it was possible within the Mass Effect universe.
The change in Kepral’s Syndrome, its ineffective application, and the disregard of established lore contributed largely to the degradation of the Thane Krios character. As all foreshadowed options to effectively treat the disease relied on the consistency of the disease, the change also eliminated a narratively feasible option to prolong the life of Thane Kriosr, and give hope to his species as a whole.
Kepral’s Syndrome in Mass Effect 2
Kepral’s Syndrome was first introduced in Mass Effect 2 alongside the Thane Krios character. It was also this character who first offered players details of the disease.
Within his repeatable “Investigate” dialogue option Thane Krios explained that Kepral’s Syndrome was a degenerative lung disease (Figure……). His species, reptiles native to an arid desert world, were unable to adapt to the humid and primarily aquatic environment of their Hanar benefactor’s homeworld, Kahje. Their lungs were unable to cope with the excess moisture. Eventually their lungs began to lose the ability to process oxygen. The more they exposed themselves to humid environments, the faster the condition deteriorated. From Thane’s dialogue players also learned that while the disease could be treated, all prognoses were terminal.
The Lair of the Shadow Broker Downloadable Content added further details of Kepral’s Syndrome via a medical report written by Dr Karin Chakwas (Figure…). In addition to the lung tissue degradation there were also metastatic legions, which in Thane’s individual case had formed on the lungs, heart, and other major organs. Antibiotic treatment suggested that a sufferer was also susceptible to bacterial infections, or that Kepral’s Syndrome itself was a bacterial disease. Further treatment therapies recommended physical exercises, and advised against stationary activities, in order to prevent further degradation of lung tissue.
It was later revealed by BioWare writer Patrick Weekes that Kepral’s Syndrome was based on the human genetic disorder Cystic Fibrosis (Figure ….) a genetic mutation causing thick mucus levels within the lungs. This revelation supported the symptoms of, and treatments for, Kepral’s Syndrome revealed thus far. The lung degradation, bacterial infections, and even the antibiotics and physical therapy were consistent with the symptoms of, and treatments for, Cystic Fibrosis.
Even though there were not enough details in Mass Effect 2 to pinpoint the exact nature of Kepral’s Syndrome, this comparison allowed fans to assume that Kepral’s Syndrome acted in a manner similar to Cystic Fibrosis. The more medically-minded of Thane fans deduced Kepral’s Syndrome to be the formation of a thick mucus layer in the lungs, caused by excess humidity instead of a genetic mutation. This conclusion was drawn because a bacterial disease would be transmittable between drell, and Thane had stated during his first ship-board conversation that the disease was uncommunicable (Figure…).
Yet despite the fatal nature of the disease, there was still hope for a Drell diagnosed with Kepral’s Syndrome.
Allusions and Avenues to a Treatment or Cure
While Kepral’s Syndrome was considered to be terminal, multiple treatments and possible cures were also provided in Mass Effect 2 and its subsequent DLCs. Yet lore established outside of the games also offered potential treatments for Kepral’s Syndrome. Both the Mass Effect novels, written by former lead writer Drew Karpyshyn, and the BioWare-run Cerberus Daily News website offered treatments and avenues for their use within the game.
The first option for the cure of Kepral’s Syndrome was mentioned during Thane Krios’s repeatable Normandy dialogue. As he explained the cause, symptoms, eventual prognosis, and scale of infection, he also acknowledged the hope of his species. The Drell’s Hanar benefactors were beginning to establish a genetic therapy designed to adapt Drell lung tissue to Kahje’s humid environment (Figure…). Should it prove successful, it would eventually eradicate the disease amongst the drell. It would however be unviable for an adult already diagnosed with the disease.
The second treatment option for Kepral’s Syndrome was offered as part of Thane Krios’s Lair of the Shadow Broker dossier. Within his medical report the Normandy’s Chief of Medicine noted that Thane was a viable candidate for a lung transplant (Figure…). As the avatar for the Drell species, players felt it safe to presume that any treatment for Thane would be viable for all Drell with the disease. While this treatment would give the recipient a longer life, it was not in and of itself a cure. The new lungs would still be susceptible to Kepral’s Syndrome, and reinfection would still occur. It also would not treat any metastatic lesions on the other organs. The transplant was therefore merely to offer a longer life, and a greater quality of life. Kepral’s Syndrome was still eventually terminal.
The third possible treatment appeared outside the game. In the first novel, Mass Effect: Revelations, Batarians were the galactic leaders in the medical field. The use of cloned organs was routine practice (Figure...). Unfortunately the synthetic generation of drell lung tissue was not possible at the time the report was written. This was, however, still a possible development in the treatment of the disease.
Less than six months after the release of Mass Effect 2 reports of a respiratory treatment appeared on the Cerberus Daily News website. The “Eupumos Device,” nicknamed “medi-gel for the lungs” (Figure…) delivered both medication and microscopic surgical machines to the patient’s lungs via the nasal passages. Viable for both dextro- and levo-amino acid based species, the device was a lauded success. For the drell species, this treatment would be useful only once the disease had been contracted. Reinfection would still be possible. A lasting effect would be dependent on continued use of the Eupumos Device.
Players were also able to determine other potential avenues for the establishment or distribution of these treatments or cures. The Batarian cloning technology would likely have been sold on the galactic black market, allowing hanar access to the technology. A breakthrough could have easily been made by one of the Illuminated Primacy’s genetic research programs. The Eupumos Device, which had been bought or appropriated by the Turian military, could have been offered by the Hierarchy as reparation for their lack of assistance in preventing the destruction of the Hanar colony world Belan.
Failing that, there were the avenues that had not been foreshadowed. There was Mordin Solus, the Salarian scientist who modified the Krogan Genophage to ensure continued control over their population growth. There was Dr. Liara T’Soni, the new Shadow Broker, whom had all the information in the Galaxy at her fingertips, and had her own relationship with a drell susceptible to Kepral’s Sndrome. There was even Cerberus, who could have relatively easily adapted the technology they used to revive Shepard’s excessively damaged corpse to drell biology, if given enough cause.
Given the many and varied treatments and methods of implementing them, foreshadowed within established lore, players felt the possibility of a life-prolonging treatment for drell diagnosed with Kepral’s Syndrome was not at all narratively unfeasible. After BioWare posted a Campaign on their Facebook page entreating fans to support curing Thane (Figure…), players also believed the optional use of these potential treatments to be guaranteed.
#537
Posté 01 mars 2013 - 06:14
RShara
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RinjiRenee wrote...
RShara wrote...
I have to ask again. Why are you guys so against people having an OPTION to have Thane's life extended to the end of the game?
You're happy with the way he has been treated? Great, you don't have to take that option. The great thing about an OPTION is that it's OPTIONAL. You can have the story go the way YOU want it, and we can have the story go the way WE want it.
Then everyone is happy. And there are scenarios that make it plausible.
Why is this such a horrible thing?
Because you don't seem to respect the fact that Thane had a terminal illness. That's like giving a dying cancer patient a shot of feel-good-juice so you can see them just a little longer. What would have extending his life done for you? He was going to die no matter what. You already knew that. So, what? Another scene in the hospital, his disease finally doing him in? He would have been in no shape to fight the Reapers by the end of the game, given the extent of his injuries.
Also, making it *~OPTIONAL~* to extend a dying man's life just seems sort of insensitive and wrong.
Shepard was dead. That wasn't exactly respected. And just because he had a terminal illness doesn't mean that he couldn't have his life extended to the point where there was a cure available.
The hanar are working on a cure. Thane doubts he'll live long enough to see it. He is eligible for a lung transplant but declines it because he wants to die at the time it was offered.
If you romance him, he no longer wants to die.
Logically, your love interest wants to live, and there's something available that would allow him to live longer, would you not at least ASK him to consider it?
What's a terminal illness now may not be in a few years, and if he has those few years...well where there is life, there is hope.
#538
Posté 01 mars 2013 - 06:14
David7204
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Could you stop posting huge chunks of text as arguments?
#539
Posté 01 mars 2013 - 06:16
radishson
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RinjiRenee wrote...
radishson wrote...
Seriously, why are you people still here? I mean, you do realise you're just rehashing the same old arguments Thane fans have been refuting and explaining ad nauseam the entire past year, right?
Because threads are a place for discussion, and not an echo chamber. Not everyone has to agree, we just have to remain on topic.
But if you honestly cared, you could access the plethora of discussion that has already transpired surrounding the topic.
#541
Posté 01 mars 2013 - 06:16
David7204
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- 15 187 messages
RShara wrote...
RinjiRenee wrote...
RShara wrote...
I have to ask again. Why are you guys so against people having an OPTION to have Thane's life extended to the end of the game?
You're happy with the way he has been treated? Great, you don't have to take that option. The great thing about an OPTION is that it's OPTIONAL. You can have the story go the way YOU want it, and we can have the story go the way WE want it.
Then everyone is happy. And there are scenarios that make it plausible.
Why is this such a horrible thing?
Because you don't seem to respect the fact that Thane had a terminal illness. That's like giving a dying cancer patient a shot of feel-good-juice so you can see them just a little longer. What would have extending his life done for you? He was going to die no matter what. You already knew that. So, what? Another scene in the hospital, his disease finally doing him in? He would have been in no shape to fight the Reapers by the end of the game, given the extent of his injuries.
Also, making it *~OPTIONAL~* to extend a dying man's life just seems sort of insensitive and wrong.
Shepard was dead. That wasn't exactly respected. And just because he had a terminal illness doesn't mean that he couldn't have his life extended to the point where there was a cure available.
The hanar are working on a cure. Thane doubts he'll live long enough to see it. He is eligible for a lung transplant but declines it because he wants to die at the time it was offered.
If you romance him, he no longer wants to die.
Logically, your love interest wants to live, and there's something available that would allow him to live longer, would you not at least ASK him to consider it?
What's a terminal illness now may not be in a few years, and if he has those few years...well where there is life, there is hope.
The hanar are working on a preventative measure. That isn't the same thing as a cure.
I don't think he declines the transplant because he wants to die. I think he declines it because he feels other drell deserve it more than he does. If he takes the transplant, that's one less transplant for someone else.
Modifié par David7204, 01 mars 2013 - 06:17 .
#542
Posté 01 mars 2013 - 06:16
Rinji the Bearded
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RShara wrote...
Shepard was dead. That wasn't exactly respected. And just because he had a terminal illness doesn't mean that he couldn't have his life extended to the point where there was a cure available.
The hanar are working on a cure. Thane doubts he'll live long enough to see it. He is eligible for a lung transplant but declines it because he wants to die at the time it was offered.
If you romance him, he no longer wants to die.
Logically, your love interest wants to live, and there's something available that would allow him to live longer, would you not at least ASK him to consider it?
What's a terminal illness now may not be in a few years, and if he has those few years...well where there is life, there is hope.
Does someone with terminal illness want to die necessarily? Would you personally engage in a relationship with a dying person and tell them a cure would save them one day?
Modifié par RinjiRenee, 01 mars 2013 - 06:17 .
#543
Posté 01 mars 2013 - 06:17
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I think it's more offensive that both Thane and Jacob are taken away as heterosexual love interests for Shepard in ME3.Also, making it *~OPTIONAL~* to extend a dying man's life just seems sort of insensitive and wrong.
Even in the event that Thane would die later in the game due to his disease, at least the gulf in content between love interests (especially female Shepard vs. male Shepard) would lessen somewhat.
#544
Posté 01 mars 2013 - 06:17
RShara
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............
Also
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How is it "insensitive and wrong" to say to your loved one, who WANTS to love, who is AFRAID of death, "Hey there's this thing that can give you a few more years! And maybe by then they'll have a cure!"
Isn't it cruel and horribly wrong to deprive them of that choice in stead?
Also
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How is it "insensitive and wrong" to say to your loved one, who WANTS to love, who is AFRAID of death, "Hey there's this thing that can give you a few more years! And maybe by then they'll have a cure!"
Isn't it cruel and horribly wrong to deprive them of that choice in stead?
#545
Posté 01 mars 2013 - 06:18
RShara
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RinjiRenee wrote...
RShara wrote...
Shepard was dead. That wasn't exactly respected. And just because he had a terminal illness doesn't mean that he couldn't have his life extended to the point where there was a cure available.
The hanar are working on a cure. Thane doubts he'll live long enough to see it. He is eligible for a lung transplant but declines it because he wants to die at the time it was offered.
If you romance him, he no longer wants to die.
Logically, your love interest wants to live, and there's something available that would allow him to live longer, would you not at least ASK him to consider it?
What's a terminal illness now may not be in a few years, and if he has those few years...well where there is life, there is hope.
Does someone with terminal illness want to die necessarily? Would you personally engage in a relationship with a dying person and tell them a cure would save them one day?
I'm sorry I have no idea what point you're trying to make here.
Modifié par RShara, 01 mars 2013 - 06:19 .
#546
Posté 01 mars 2013 - 06:18
Rinji the Bearded
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HJF4 wrote...
I think it's more offensive that both Thane and Jacob are taken away as heterosexual love interests for Shepard in ME3.Also, making it *~OPTIONAL~* to extend a dying man's life just seems sort of insensitive and wrong.
Even in the event that Thane would die later in the game due to his disease, at least the gulf in content between love interests (especially female Shepard vs. male Shepard) would lessen somewhat.
Jacob was silly, I'll give you that.
But Thane told Shepard he was dying in Mass Effect 2, before the romance even started.
#547
Posté 01 mars 2013 - 06:20
RShara
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We romanced him In SPITE of his illness, not because of it.
And because we had hope that we'd find a way to save him. Like we've saved the millions of other people who would have died if we hadn't managed an amazingly heroic success.
And because we had hope that we'd find a way to save him. Like we've saved the millions of other people who would have died if we hadn't managed an amazingly heroic success.
#548
Posté 01 mars 2013 - 06:20
gearseffect
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Han Shot First wrote...
RShara wrote...
I have to ask again. Why are you guys so against people having an OPTION to have Thane's life extended to the end of the game?
You're happy with the way he has been treated? Great, you don't have to take that option. The great thing about an OPTION is that it's OPTIONAL. You can have the story go the way YOU want it, and we can have the story go the way WE want it.
Then everyone is happy. And there are scenarios that make it plausible.
Why is this such a horrible thing?
In general or the DLC?
I have different answers for both.
For the DLC I'm actually in favor of having an option to save Thane, but only if Bioware can write in a scenario where the player suffers just as big a loss in Thane's stead. What I'm against is a get-out-of-jail-free card, where the player can resolve every situation without there being consequences. I think good storytelling then gets sacrificed in trade.
The problem with giving an option to save Thane without someone else dying in his stead, or some other negative consequence that is equally impactful emotionally, is that it then cheapens that death bed scene in Huerta Memorial. It would then be a scene that only occured when Shepard committed some blunder that was directly responsible for Thane's death. Any emotional impact that scene may have previously had is now removed by making Shepard the cause of Thane's death, rather than Kai Leng.
I got a solution if you want someone to die in Thane's stead and have it be an impactful death why not serve up Liara to die in his stead? I LIKE THAT IDEA!!!!
#549
Posté 01 mars 2013 - 06:20
radishson
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David7204 wrote...
Could you stop posting huge chunks of text as arguments?
You should be grateful someone is willing to dig up material any reasonable person really should have been able to find themselves. I mean, it's not like everything you have said hasn't been addressed in the past countless times already.
#550
Posté 01 mars 2013 - 06:20
Rinji the Bearded
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RShara wrote...
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Also
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How is it "insensitive and wrong" to say to your loved one, who WANTS to love, who is AFRAID of death, "Hey there's this thing that can give you a few more years! And maybe by then they'll have a cure!"
Isn't it cruel and horribly wrong to deprive them of that choice in stead?
I'll ask you again:
If a man with terminal illness (that you have prior knowledge of) wanted to engage in a romance with you, would you tell him that a cure would one day save his life?
