1904 réponses à ce sujet

[RShara]

RinjiRenee wrote...

RShara wrote...

So your significant other is dying.  He's fighting desperately to live, is full of fire and determination.
You're called away for 6 months--for whatever reason you like.
You come back, and y our significant other says, "I'm dying, it's fine, go about your business."

You really have no problem or see no problem with this?

I would be sad, yes.   Heartbroken, even.  I can't imagine life without my SO.  But if my SO were to accept death after a period of time, I would accept it as their decision to make.

You would seriously go, "Okay" and then hit on the next person you see (the way Shepard does with Kaidan if he lives?), without ever asking reasons why, and convincing them to go back the way they were, when hanging on just a little longer might mean he'd live a long and happy life?

Man, I don't ever want to hook up with you!

[LanceSolous13]

RinjiRenee wrote...

RShara wrote...

So your significant other is dying.  He's fighting desperately to live, is full of fire and determination.
You're called away for 6 months--for whatever reason you like.
You come back, and y our significant other says, "I'm dying, it's fine, go about your business."

You really have no problem or see no problem with this?

I would be sad, yes.   Heartbroken, even.  I can't imagine life without my SO.  But if my SO were to accept death after a period of time, I would accept it as their decision to make.

But, wouldn't you QUESTION it? Inquire about their choices and make sure they're fine with this complete 180 instead of accepting it blindly?

[lyssalu]

RinjiRenee wrote...

RShara wrote...

If it had been explained and there'd been a mature dialogue about it , no.  But Thane is like, "No it's cool, I'm still dying."  And Shep goes, "Oh, sorry."

I'm not saying that part was exactly stellar writing or anything, but I saw similiar arguments about Dragon Age Anders vs Dragon Age 2 Anders, with people saying he wasn't the same character and that he was a retcon and etc. 

And I didn't see it that way at all, I guess.  People can change their minds and not really talk about it, it's believable.

anders took a demon inside of him between the events of DA and DA2...it's fully explained character development, dude.  he didn't just get that way because "a lot of time passed"

[lyssalu]

RShara wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

RShara wrote...

So your significant other is dying.  He's fighting desperately to live, is full of fire and determination.
You're called away for 6 months--for whatever reason you like.
You come back, and y our significant other says, "I'm dying, it's fine, go about your business."

You really have no problem or see no problem with this?

I would be sad, yes.   Heartbroken, even.  I can't imagine life without my SO.  But if my SO were to accept death after a period of time, I would accept it as their decision to make.

You would seriously go, "Okay" and then hit on the next person you see (the way Shepard does with Kaidan if he lives?), without ever asking reasons why, and convincing them to go back the way they were, when hanging on just a little longer might mean he'd live a long and happy life?

Man, I don't ever want to hook up with you!

they're one of the ones that smells bad, so you wouldn't have wanted to anyway

i know these things

[Rinji the Bearded]

lyssalu wrote...
okay, dude -- it can happen, but it can only happen badly.  and once again, you're saying what i just said while for some reason maintaining the image of holding a contrary position.  if you have to metagame in order to come up with reasons for why something happened, it's because a writer seriously screwed up.

It's not really metagaming to understand that time passed.

[RShara]

I mean, seriously, wouldn't EVERYONE's INSTINCTIVE reaction be, "What? Why??" Not, "Okay, see ya."
???????????????

[gearseffect]

lyssalu wrote...

it's all a lot of moot points, anyway. the problem isn't that he died -- the problem is the manner in which he died, the inconsistency within his character arc, and the freaky make out scene in the lobby of a hospital followed by, "hey shep i wanna die now how r u buddy"

y'all keep talking about how we knew he was going to die, but WE DIDN'T KNOW HE WAS GOING TO DIE BECAUSE HE GOT STABBED BY A REALLY BASIC NINJA IN A POORLY CHOREOGRAPHED CUT SCENE

it's really not that hard to grasp how sloppy everything was, which obviously just added insult to injury. SHEPARD DIES ANYWAY. idgaf if thane dies or not but it didn't have to be an awkward on screen death where you pray over his dead body with his son wHAT THE HELL MAN

They should have just thrown Miranda's butt in as his bedpan too. It would complete the golous warrior death and powerful deathbed scene. It would further the arch that Buttware is a bunch of sexist pigs who only cared about DudeShep's LIs and flushed Femshep down the sh!tter and made both the women (Ash and Femshep) in both "cheating scenes"  be the ones who were out of line. Making Ash look like a fool "Wait Shepard.. I'm sorry it's just my head and all this stuff .. I'm not thinking right" or whatever her BS line was.

Then Femshep thanking Kiadan for forgiving her.

Yes Miranda's butt as a bedpan would complete and further develop powerful themes in a very powerful death scene that was wonderful. 

[Leonia]

Renmiri1 wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

I got the impression in ME2 that Shepard added a new complication to something he was totally ok with until that moment but then ME3 came along and he was at peace. That's how I saw it anyway, your mileage may vary.

Oi

Let's start with Thane's first convo. He is fine with being an assassin, he is just a tool, not the real killer, isn't that what he tells you ?
But pray tell what is his loyalty mission ?
To avoid his son from being an assassin. Sounds like a guy who is perfectly fine with being an assassin ? If you say yes, I have a bridge in New York to sell to you

Thane says things out loud to convince himself. But inside he is not so sure, not so strong, not so "peacefull". If you had payed ANY attention to detail you would have seen at least the example I just gave you.

With his death, it is the same. Outwardly he was "at peace" but inside he was afraid of wasting away in a hospital. Which is precisely what ME3 Thane wants to do. That is not the THane we met om ME2. That is just a husk.

You're ignoring the passage of time between ME2 and ME3. These characters grow, that's why we love them so much.  I'm not sure I follow your argument though, it starts with Thane isn't at peace with being an assasssin (which I dispute, he doesn't want his son to follow his footsteps but that doesn't mean he's not ok with his own  life) and ends with "Thane is a husk of his former self". Well, time passed, Shepard entered and then left Thane's life. The variables were changed, the outcome was still going to be the same.

[RShara]

Oh god. Se my last 10 posts, please. It is NOT realistic. There is not a human alive where if their loved one turns face with NO EXPLANATION and says, "I'm dying, it's okay." they would just walk it off. Seriously.

YOU WOULD ASK FOR AN EXPLANATION. YOU WOULD NOT JUST WALK AWAY.

[Renmiri1]

RinjiRenee wrote...

RShara wrote...

So your significant other is dying.  He's fighting desperately to live, is full of fire and determination.
You're called away for 6 months--for whatever reason you like.
You come back, and y our significant other says, "I'm dying, it's fine, go about your business."

You really have no problem or see no problem with this?

I would be sad, yes.   Heartbroken, even.  I can't imagine life without my SO.  But if my SO were to accept death after a period of time, I would accept it as their decision to make.

Heh, didn't I just give you a cookie for realizing the Thane in ME3 was not the same Thane we saw on ME2 ? 

I would accept his decision, if it made sense. If it was the same Thane I met on ME2. If he showed the same concerns and priorities he had, or gave me a single reason why he changed 180 degrees about his death. But no, the guy we meet in ME3 is a complete stranger and we can't even go WTF Thane ???

[LanceSolous13]

lyssalu wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

RShara wrote...

If it had been explained and there'd been a mature dialogue about it , no.  But Thane is like, "No it's cool, I'm still dying."  And Shep goes, "Oh, sorry."

I'm not saying that part was exactly stellar writing or anything, but I saw similiar arguments about Dragon Age Anders vs Dragon Age 2 Anders, with people saying he wasn't the same character and that he was a retcon and etc. 

And I didn't see it that way at all, I guess.  People can change their minds and not really talk about it, it's believable.

anders took a demon inside of him between the events of DA and DA2...it's fully explained character development, dude.  he didn't just get that way because "a lot of time passed"

Though, I'd much rather keep on the topic of Thane, or at least ME3, I belive Anders was just as bad. Anders isn't the same in DAII as Awakening and the whole 'Justice changed him' feels far to expositiony and ass pull to satisfactorally accept.

It probably didn't help that I walked into DAII expecting to romance a Strong Snark-Knight of a Mage, instead finding a much more timid/meek abomination.

[Rinji the Bearded]

RShara wrote...

You would seriously go, "Okay" and then hit on the next person you see (the way Shepard does with Kaidan if he lives?), without ever asking reasons why, and convincing them to go back the way they were, when hanging on just a little longer might mean he'd live a long and happy life?

Man, I don't ever want to hook up with you!

Uhhh I don't think we were discussing Shepard's forced behavior, we were discussing the circumstances of Thane's death and etc.  Trust me, I know gross Shepard behavior.  It requires mental gymnastics to play a gay Manshep for all three games, because the game has a tendency to railroad Shepard into certain behavior.  Had to reload several times to keep his sexuality in check, avoid talking to certain characters (Miranda and Jack especially).

But I'm specifically talking about Thane's attitudes about his illness. 

[Mr.House]

You know, this whole thing reminds me when ME2 came out when Ash/Kaidan and Liara fans where royally upset with the content they got(and they had every right to me) and there was people arguing that there is nothing wrong with the content, it's well written, they are better now ect. This is what it reminds me of and it's sad. Bioware pulled this crap before and got backlash and pulled the same crap again with two characters(Thane and Jacob)

Another good connection. Liara did get dlc after a long wait which was good dlc, HOWEVER. Kaidan and Ash never got any dlc, at all, nor did they get any SB dossier, a mention from Liara if they where your LI ect. They where ignored by Bioware and treated like crap in ME2. Bioware, why did you not learn your lesson from that fiasco? This is just like ME2 Kaidan/Ash/Liara but 10x worse.

[RShara]

leonia42 wrote...
You're ignoring the passage of time between ME2 and ME3. These characters grow, that's why we love them so much.  I'm not sure I follow your argument though, it starts with Thane isn't at peace with being an assasssin (which I dispute, he doesn't want his son to follow his footsteps but that doesn't mean he's not ok with his own  life)

What  would you accept as proof?  I have screenshots from in game, and quotes from Thane's ME2 writer.

[lyssalu]

RinjiRenee wrote...

lyssalu wrote...
okay, dude -- it can happen, but it can only happen badly.  and once again, you're saying what i just said while for some reason maintaining the image of holding a contrary position.  if you have to metagame in order to come up with reasons for why something happened, it's because a writer seriously screwed up.

It's not really metagaming to understand that time passed.

it is when you're assuming something specific happened in that time frame that is left unexplained to the audience for some mysterious reason

which you are doing

time does not change minds -- events do.

[Han Shot First]

Maera Imrov wrote...

@Han Shot First-

A sacrifice of Garrus for Thane would be something of great difficulty for my Shepard, as she views Garrus as a brother. It would be a fittingly difficult choice. I can get behind the concept of heavy cost for Thane's life. In fact, it was an option I had hoped to see explored in ME3, back before it launched and I used to muse to myself about what would happen. You could save Thane, but at what cost? What would you lose? What would you have to do to achieve it? Would it be something that would make Shepard doubt/dislike the person she saw in the mirror?

I love games throwing decisions like that at you. Virmire is one of my favorite missions in ME1 for that reason.

Maera Imrov wrote...


My real issues with Thane's death in the game is the oddity of the fight. This has been hashed to death, how Shepard and co just kind of stand there, how Kirrahe is nowhere in sight, yet is there if Thane is not there to fill this role, etc. I also was utterly shocked by the fact that no one on your squad comments on his death at all. Especially Garrus who is written like Shepard's best friend/brother-in-arms if he isn't romanced. Even he had nothing at all to say. It was like he literally vanished from the game, and that was that.

I do think that the fight cutscene and the aftermath of Thane's death should have been handled better.

I think the cutscene would have worked better if Cerberus troops were attempting to reinforce Kai Leng. It would give Shepard a plausible reason for not being able to intervene, having to order one squadmate to evacuate the Councilor while he (or she) and the other squadmate deals with the Cerberus troopers. Meanwhile Thane is holding off Kai Leng and preventing him from following after the Councilor.

After Thane's death there should be some reaction from squadmates, and the player should have been able to play the grieving widow.

I also think Thane should have gotten a little more content before that death, if he was going to be the only LI to die in every playthrough. I know Bioware had dialogue budgets they had to be concerned with, but a completely useless character like Allers cut have been cut to make room. At the very least Thancemancers should have had a Citadel date with Thane and some resolution of the romance arc before the Coup.

[Renmiri1]

David7204 wrote...

HJF4 wrote...

It'd be a little more believable that Thane changed his mind if Jacob hadn't also changed his mind. As it is it seems they shoved Thane and Jacob under the carpet to focus on Kaidan & Garrus and especially male Shepard's romances.

That's stupid. Nobody romanced Jacob in the first place. That's the whole reason why they picked him to have another relationship in the first place.

I just lost all respect I had for anything you had to say.

Bye troll

[LanceSolous13]

leonia42 wrote...
You're ignoring the passage of time between ME2 and ME3. These characters grow, that's why we love them so much.  I'm not sure I follow your argument though, it starts with Thane isn't at peace with being an assasssin (which I dispute, he doesn't want his son to follow his footsteps but that doesn't mean he's not ok with his own  life) and ends with "Thane is a husk of his former self". Well, time passed, Shepard entered and then left Thane's life. The variables were changed, the outcome was still going to be the same.

THEN THE DIALOGUE SHOULD HAVE DISCUSSED THIS FACT.

Instead, the dialogue is delivered like exposition and 'as you know' stuff.

[Leonia]

RShara wrote...

Oh god. Se my last 10 posts, please. It is NOT realistic. There is not a human alive where if their loved one turns face with NO EXPLANATION and says, "I'm dying, it's okay." they would just walk it off. Seriously.

YOU WOULD ASK FOR AN EXPLANATION. YOU WOULD NOT JUST WALK AWAY.

Probably, but when faced with inevitable and no alternative way to change the situation, what can you really say? "I wish I could help you but I can't" just doesn't seem good enough. Nobody is happy about walking away, more could have been said for sure but what. Some people don't deal well when faced with a situation like that. Maybe Shepard just can't think of the right words.

[RShara]

RinjiRenee wrote...

RShara wrote...

You would seriously go, "Okay" and then hit on the next person you see (the way Shepard does with Kaidan if he lives?), without ever asking reasons why, and convincing them to go back the way they were, when hanging on just a little longer might mean he'd live a long and happy life?

Man, I don't ever want to hook up with you!

Uhhh I don't think we were discussing Shepard's forced behavior, we were discussing the circumstances of Thane's death and etc.  Trust me, I know gross Shepard behavior.  It requires mental gymnastics to play a gay Manshep for all three games, because the game has a tendency to railroad Shepard into certain behavior.  Had to reload several times to keep his sexuality in check, avoid talking to certain characters (Miranda and Jack especially).

But I'm specifically talking about Thane's attitudes about his illness. 

No, we were discussing the bad storytelling of his changed attitude toward his illness, and how the lack of explanation for it is one of the things that makes us upset about his character in ME3.

[MECavScout01]

Renmiri1 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

HJF4 wrote...

It'd be a little more believable that Thane changed his mind if Jacob hadn't also changed his mind. As it is it seems they shoved Thane and Jacob under the carpet to focus on Kaidan & Garrus and especially male Shepard's romances.

That's stupid. Nobody romanced Jacob in the first place. That's the whole reason why they picked him to have another relationship in the first place.

I just lost all respect I had for anything you had to say.

Bye troll

Welcome to everyone's opinion ever of David. 

[kalasaurus]

Is Thane worth romancing in ME2? I'm replaying the game and want to romance someone other than Garrus this time. Thane has a certain appeal to him but his ME3 fate makes me wonder.

I guess we'll see what kind of acknowledgement he gets in this DLC. Though anything is a step up from Garrus, Joker and EDI forgetting his existence post-Coup.

[LanceSolous13]

leonia42 wrote...

RShara wrote...

Oh god. Se my last 10 posts, please. It is NOT realistic. There is not a human alive where if their loved one turns face with NO EXPLANATION and says, "I'm dying, it's okay." they would just walk it off. Seriously.

YOU WOULD ASK FOR AN EXPLANATION. YOU WOULD NOT JUST WALK AWAY.

Probably, but when faced with inevitable and no alternative way to change the situation, what can you really say? "I wish I could help you but I can't" just doesn't seem good enough. Nobody is happy about walking away, more could have been said for sure but what. Some people don't deal well when faced with a situation like that. Maybe Shepard just can't think of the right words.

That is not my Shepard.

[RShara]

leonia42 wrote...

RShara wrote...

Oh god. Se my last 10 posts, please. It is NOT realistic. There is not a human alive where if their loved one turns face with NO EXPLANATION and says, "I'm dying, it's okay." they would just walk it off. Seriously.

YOU WOULD ASK FOR AN EXPLANATION. YOU WOULD NOT JUST WALK AWAY.

Probably, but when faced with inevitable and no alternative way to change the situation, what can you really say? "I wish I could help you but I can't" just doesn't seem good enough. Nobody is happy about walking away, more could have been said for sure but what. Some people don't deal well when faced with a situation like that. Maybe Shepard just can't think of the right words.

How about, "What about that lung transplant you were offered.  You could live like you wanted to a few months ago."

Shepard who can stop galloping turians, charm mercenaries, and lull Reapers couldn't find those words?

[Leonia]

And we're back to "how do the writers deal with headcanon".