1904 réponses à ce sujet

[Rinji the Bearded]

RShara wrote...

No, we were discussing the bad storytelling of his changed attitude toward his illness, and how the lack of explanation for it is one of the things that makes us upset about his character in ME3.

Aaand this is where I bow out because I don't think we're gonna agree here ever

[devSin]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

I'm sorry for the rudeness in my comment but every interview with any of the ME3 devs go on about how 'Choices from ME1 can effect ME3' and 'One random thing from ME1 can have such a large impact in the final installment' (paraphrasing here) when I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that such statements are true.

But I think you're missing the context.

He was referring to the implementation of having so many different variables to account for, and having it all actually work (they made a game where different things would occur based on choices you made two games ago).

The context wasn't specifically about the overall narrative, of whether saving the Council or letting them die (for example) had enough of an impact on the overall story. (Which I think is a valid criticism, but it's also unfair to say that there was no effect whatsoever of such decisions, even if the narrative does ultimately play out the same way.)

My response also wasn't totally aimed at you; I've seen some posts that were offended by the term Dusty used (which he came here to apologize for), but also unsure of what he's responsible for or why he didn't go to other groups or threads to post about it. I just didn't want Dusty to get caught in the crossfire.

[lyssalu]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

lyssalu wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

RShara wrote...

If it had been explained and there'd been a mature dialogue about it , no.  But Thane is like, "No it's cool, I'm still dying."  And Shep goes, "Oh, sorry."

I'm not saying that part was exactly stellar writing or anything, but I saw similiar arguments about Dragon Age Anders vs Dragon Age 2 Anders, with people saying he wasn't the same character and that he was a retcon and etc. 

And I didn't see it that way at all, I guess.  People can change their minds and not really talk about it, it's believable.

anders took a demon inside of him between the events of DA and DA2...it's fully explained character development, dude.  he didn't just get that way because "a lot of time passed"

Though, I'd much rather keep on the topic of Thane, or at least ME3, I belive Anders was just as bad. Anders isn't the same in DAII as Awakening and the whole 'Justice changed him' feels far to expositiony and ass pull to satisfactorally accept.

It probably didn't help that I walked into DAII expecting to romance a Strong Snark-Knight of a Mage, instead finding a much more timid/meek abomination.

you thought da2 anders was timid?

the dude that went insane and ate some wardens and blew up the chantry?

i don't think it's unreasonable to assume that existing as two beings within the same body would change someone's personality.  that said, i was disappointed that he was less snarky, etc., but i don't think it was unjustified.  avoidable, yes, but i do see the reasoning.

you're right, though; what a digression.

[LanceSolous13]

leonia42 wrote...

And we're back to "how do the writers deal with headcanon".

Simple.

Its the number 1 rule of any game ever, just a bit more important to RPGs.

NEVER assume ANYTHING about the player.

[RShara]

leonia42 wrote...

And we're back to "how do the writers deal with headcanon".

Wtf? Where is the headcanon? LotSB says he is eligible for a lung transplant which will extend his life.
The report was done by Dr. Chakwas when he went on board the Normandy. Before he romances Shepard.

When he romances Shepard, he does not want to die.

There SHOULD BE no need to headcanon. "Hey Thane, how about a lung transplant to live longer? Maybe you'll see that cure you talked about at the beginning."

Modifié par RShara, 01 mars 2013 - 07:55 .

[Mr.House]

GlassElephant wrote...

Is Thane worth romancing in ME2? I'm replaying the game and want to romance someone other than Garrus this time. Thane has a certain appeal to him but his ME3 fate makes me wonder.

I guess we'll see what kind of acknowledgement he gets in this DLC. Though anything is a step up from Garrus, Joker and EDI forgetting his existence post-Coup.

There's no point romancing Thane period anymore. I deleted my Thane ormance pt a year ago, it's done. You might as well stick with Garrus and remeber Thane as he was in ME2. A well written character.

[Leonia]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

And we're back to "how do the writers deal with headcanon".

Simple.

Its the number 1 rule of any game ever, just a bit more important to RPGs.

NEVER assume ANYTHING about the player.

There is no writer or developer alive that can account for an infinite number of variables. This may bring us to the "What is an RPG" debate in which case I must depart because that goes against what I'm willing to discuss around here.

[lyssalu]

Renmiri1 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

HJF4 wrote...

It'd be a little more believable that Thane changed his mind if Jacob hadn't also changed his mind. As it is it seems they shoved Thane and Jacob under the carpet to focus on Kaidan & Garrus and especially male Shepard's romances.

That's stupid. Nobody romanced Jacob in the first place. That's the whole reason why they picked him to have another relationship in the first place.

I just lost all respect I had for anything you had to say.

Bye troll

right?  i romanced the **** out of jacob and bioware's treatment of his character was really racist from the start so like

i think we know why they chose him to knock up another woman while still in a relationship with shepard

[RShara]

leonia42 wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

And we're back to "how do the writers deal with headcanon".

Simple.

Its the number 1 rule of any game ever, just a bit more important to RPGs.

NEVER assume ANYTHING about the player.

There is no writer or developer alive that can account for an infinite number of variables. This may bring us to the "What is an RPG" debate in which case I must depart because that goes against what I'm willing to discuss around here.

Fact:  LotSB says he is eligible for a lung transplant which will extend his life.
Fact:  The report was done by Dr. Chakwas when he went on board the Normandy. Before he romances Shepard.
Fact:  When he romances Shepard, he does not want to die.

There SHOULD BE no need to headcanon. "Hey Thane, how about a lung transplant to live longer? Maybe you'll see that cure you talked about at the beginning."

Modifié par RShara, 01 mars 2013 - 07:57 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

Seems there's a lot of assumptions from those who never romanced him in ME2.

[Renmiri1]

leonia42 wrote...

RShara wrote...

Oh god. Se my last 10 posts, please. It is NOT realistic. There is not a human alive where if their loved one turns face with NO EXPLANATION and says, "I'm dying, it's okay." they would just walk it off. Seriously.

YOU WOULD ASK FOR AN EXPLANATION. YOU WOULD NOT JUST WALK AWAY.

Probably, but when faced with inevitable and no alternative way to change the situation, what can you really say? "I wish I could help you but I can't" just doesn't seem good enough. Nobody is happy about walking away, more could have been said for sure but what. Some people don't deal well when faced with a situation like that. Maybe Shepard just can't think of the right words.

But that wasn't a new situation. Thane's illness was known in ME2. Heck, both Thane and Sheppard could have died in the suicide mission. 

You say "time passed" like some kind of space magic happened and the Thane that was afraid to die and the Shepard that was romancing a very ill man completely dissapeared and got replaced by a "I'll die now" "Sure, go ahead"  vacuous uncaring couple. Then Shepard goes on to get jumped by Liara, Kaidan, Ailers, Traynor, merrily.
What exactly happened on that time ? Did both Thane and Shepard got a lobotomy ? 

[RShara]

There always are, Fiery.

[grey_wind]

Mr.House wrote...

You know, this whole thing reminds me when ME2 came out when Ash/Kaidan and Liara fans where royally upset with the content they got(and they had every right to me) and there was people arguing that there is nothing wrong with the content, it's well written, they are better now ect. This is what it reminds me of and it's sad. Bioware pulled this crap before and got backlash and pulled the same crap again with two characters(Thane and Jacob)

Another good connection. Liara did get dlc after a long wait which was good dlc, HOWEVER. Kaidan and Ash never got any dlc, at all, nor did they get any SB dossier, a mention from Liara if they where your LI ect. They where ignored by Bioware and treated like crap in ME2. Bioware, why did you not learn your lesson from that fiasco? This is just like ME2 Kaidan/Ash/Liara but 10x worse.

I think the one silver lining of the VS's treatment in ME2 for fans was that it guaranteed they would return for ME3, though that doesn't excuse how poorly Ash and Kaidan are treated in that game.

Arrival would have been a hell of a lot more enjoyable if the VS was involved, and honestly they could have been quite easily incorporated into that DLC.

[Leonia]

There's a LOT of stuff from LotSB that isn't referenced in ME3, take Garrus' mother for example or Miranda's sterility. Just because it was there (and not everyone played LotSB) means it has to be addressed later.

[lyssalu]

RShara wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

And we're back to "how do the writers deal with headcanon".

Wtf? Where is the headcanon? LotSB says he is eligible for a lung transplant which will extend his life.
The report was done by Dr. Chakwas when he went on board the Normandy. Before he romances Shepard.

When he romances Shepard, he does not want to die.

There SHOULD BE no need to headcanon. "Hey Thane, how about a lung transplant to live longer? Maybe you'll see that cure you talked about at the beginning."

lol yeaaah

foreshadowing can't be interpreted as headcanon sorry y'all

including those tidbits of info was completely unnecessary unless they intended to do anything with it other than to troll and to dangle, and you'd have to have an even lower opinion of bioware than i do to think that that was the case.

[lyssalu]

leonia42 wrote...

There's a LOT of stuff from LotSB that isn't referenced in ME3, take Garrus' mother for example or Miranda's sterility. Just because it was there (and not everyone played LotSB) means it has to be addressed later.

those things should have been mentioned as well tbh

bad writing all across the board man

[Mr.House]

leonia42 wrote...

There's a LOT of stuff from LotSB that isn't referenced in ME3, take Garrus' mother for example or Miranda's sterility. Just because it was there (and not everyone played LotSB) means it has to be addressed later.

Thanes dossier proves he could have been "cured". It's very simple. The writer did not care.

[RShara]

leonia42 wrote...

There's a LOT of stuff from LotSB that isn't referenced in ME3, take Garrus' mother for example or Miranda's sterility. Just because it was there (and not everyone played LotSB) means it has to be addressed later.

But it's fine to have the entire reason for the intro of ME3 be based on a dlc.

Also what lyss said.

[Leonia]

RShara wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

There's a LOT of stuff from LotSB that isn't referenced in ME3, take Garrus' mother for example or Miranda's sterility. Just because it was there (and not everyone played LotSB) means it has to be addressed later.

But it's fine to have the entire reason for the intro of ME3 be based on a dlc.

Also what lyss said.

There's a line in the beginning that refers to players who didn't do Arrival, it wasn't pivotal to the plot of ME3.

I don't disagree that those LotSB "easter eggs" should have been expanded on but the fact that one wasn't when others weren't sort of indicates they weren't super important.

Modifié par leonia42, 01 mars 2013 - 08:01 .

[lyssalu]

RinjiRenee wrote...

RShara wrote...

No, we were discussing the bad storytelling of his changed attitude toward his illness, and how the lack of explanation for it is one of the things that makes us upset about his character in ME3.

Aaand this is where I bow out because I don't think we're gonna agree here ever

gl with the coloring book man i'm rooting for you

[LanceSolous13]

leonia42 wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

And we're back to "how do the writers deal with headcanon".

Simple.

Its the number 1 rule of any game ever, just a bit more important to RPGs.

NEVER assume ANYTHING about the player.

There is no writer or developer alive that can account for an infinite number of variables. This may bring us to the "What is an RPG" debate in which case I must depart because that goes against what I'm willing to discuss around here.

I don't mean to account for a million variables, but this is why PLAY TESTING exists.

If I can logically go 'Wait, LotSB mentioned a Lung Transplant' the INSTANT I see Thane, its certainly worthy of being Shepard's natural reply.

Basiclly, Shepard cannot deviate too far from who the Player is. ME1 had no auto-dialogue and every comment was directed by the player.

ME2 had some auto-dialogue but I found them reasonable enough to not complain.

In ME3, Shepard became his own entity and responded free of my own actions and would often do things too far out of reason for me to say as my/Shepard's natural response.

The issue is that ME1 and ME2 handeled it so well, but ME3 didn't.

[Renmiri1]

Mr.House wrote...

GlassElephant wrote...

Is Thane worth romancing in ME2? I'm replaying the game and want to romance someone other than Garrus this time. Thane has a certain appeal to him but his ME3 fate makes me wonder.

I guess we'll see what kind of acknowledgement he gets in this DLC. Though anything is a step up from Garrus, Joker and EDI forgetting his existence post-Coup.

There's no point romancing Thane period anymore. I deleted my Thane ormance pt a year ago, it's done. You might as well stick with Garrus and remeber Thane as he was in ME2. A well written character.

Agreed. Don't do this to yourself. It isn't worth it and will not let you enjoy any aspect of ME after it because you will feel so definitely utterly trolled by Bioware that you want to see them die in a fire. And those are the good days. 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 01 mars 2013 - 08:06 .

[Leonia]

ME1 didn't have autodialogue.. no it just had two options that lead to the same response. We're starting to get grossly off-topic here and I need to bow out anyway. I do, sincerely hope the new DLC gives you guys something to cheer about, really. Thane wasn't my favourite LI but that doesn't mean his fans or their concerns should be overlooked. Good luck to you all on March 5th.

[lyssalu]

leonia42 wrote...

RShara wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

There's a LOT of stuff from LotSB that isn't referenced in ME3, take Garrus' mother for example or Miranda's sterility. Just because it was there (and not everyone played LotSB) means it has to be addressed later.

But it's fine to have the entire reason for the intro of ME3 be based on a dlc.

Also what lyss said.

There's a line in the beginning that refers to players who didn't do Arrival, it wasn't pivotal to the plot of ME3.

I don't disagree that those LotSB "easter eggs" should have been expanded on but the fact that one wasn't when others weren't sort of indicates they weren't super important.

an event that set up the beginning of me3 wasn't pivotal?  oh, okay.

you realize bioware only make claims like that so that new players aren't turned off by starting a new game they'd have to invest large chunks of money into in order to enjoy, right?  they said that for the same reason they said ME1 and ME2 were nonessential to ME3, and with the way ME3 was handled, that definitely shows.  the narrative is so schizophrenic.

and in any case, none of the romances are important.  those are nonessential aspects of the game.  if you're going to add something to their individual stories, though, at least follow the **** through, particularly when it's something that sounds like build up to certain events.  sloppy, sloppy, sloppy.

[Mr.House]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

And we're back to "how do the writers deal with headcanon".

Simple.

Its the number 1 rule of any game ever, just a bit more important to RPGs.

NEVER assume ANYTHING about the player.

There is no writer or developer alive that can account for an infinite number of variables. This may bring us to the "What is an RPG" debate in which case I must depart because that goes against what I'm willing to discuss around here.

I don't mean to account for a million variables, but this is why PLAY TESTING exists.

If I can logically go 'Wait, LotSB mentioned a Lung Transplant' the INSTANT I see Thane, its certainly worthy of being Shepard's natural reply.

Basiclly, Shepard cannot deviate too far from who the Player is. ME1 had no auto-dialogue and every comment was directed by the player.

ME2 had some auto-dialogue but I found them reasonable enough to not complain.

In ME3, Shepard became his own entity and responded free of my own actions and would often do things too far out of reason for me to say as my/Shepard's natural response.

The issue is that ME1 and ME2 handeled it so well, but ME3 didn't.

ME did in fact have auto dialog, they where just short scenes. As for the ME2 auto dialog being bad. I disagree This whole scene just took my broken immersion already from the start and shattered it. WHile not auto dialog, how distant Shepard is to Liara and VS, more so if oyu ormanced them was another big issue. ME was good. ME2 and mE3 where not when it came to this stuff.