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Thanemancers and the Citadel DLC


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#801
Xellith

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Solaxe wrote...

Dusty Everman wrote...

When people say your choices don't  really matter in ME, it always kills me a little inside.  We spent so much time making the game work for everyones own experience.  Choices you make two games earlier can change what you see in ME3.  What other game has done that?  It's a testing nightmare.  I tip my hat and bow deeply in gratitude to the QA teams of Mass Effect.


You blow up 300k Batarians and after that nobody cares except maybe 2 people.


Thats exactly the kinda stuff Im talking about.

#802
CronoDragoon

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Dusty Everman wrote...

I do apologize for using the term "zombie-Thane".  I did not mean to be disrespectful.  I was just trying to say that we couldn't bring him back from the dead.  This pack will most likely be played from people's auto-save made just before the assault on the Illusive Man's base, well after Thane has passed on.  We don't want to force players to play the game completely over to see new content.  We are adding to your story, not changing what you've already experienced in the past.

That said, we tried to make a positive experience for those who romanced Thane.  We'll see in a week if you think that was successful or not. 

And as an aside, the reason "zombie-Thane" came so easily from my lips (or, er, fingers), is that during the development of ME3 is was a common logic bug to have dead characters accidentally appear where they shouldn't.  It was common for us to say things like "There goes Garrus smooching up with zombie-Tali", or "Hey, I just got an email from zombie-Wrex".  There's a whole lot of could-be-dead characters we need to account for, and as far as I know, we fixed all those type bugs before ship.


That's some funny stuff. Also nice to know Thane will be acknowledged in some way, at least.

#803
CronoDragoon

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Xellith wrote...

But thats not what people really mean when they said that our choices didnt matter.  We mean that the big choices had limited impacts.  Kill the rachni queen in ME1 or not.  Doesnt matter. Here is your alternative rachni queen.  Rewrite the heretics or destroy them?  Doesnt matter.  Have a change in EMS score. 


You aren't going to get far if you're trying to downplay the effect that has. It's one of the factors that determines the possibility for peace on Rannoch. Rannoch, in general, is really the pinnacle of the "your choices matter" ideal towards which the ME team strives.

#804
Lucky Thirteen

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I think Thane said it best. Entropy wins. Entropy always wins.

#805
Karlone123

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I can imagine a troll moment from Bioware that a Salarian runs into the casino saying he has a cure for Kepral Syndrome. The look of Shepard and his friends would be priceless for it being too late.

#806
Vlk3

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Lucky Thirteen wrote...

I think Thane said it best. Entropy wins. Entropy always wins.


I remembered the same quote when I learned about that...

#807
Big stupid jellyfish

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Lucky Thirteen wrote...

I think Thane said it best. Entropy wins. Entropy always wins.


It made me think that Bioware failed my loyalty quest in ME3, just as you can fail Thane's in ME2. Customer 'Big stupid jellyfish': loyalty lost.

(Though to be honest, Thane's treatment is only part of my issues with ME3.)

#808
radishson

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cogsandcurls wrote...

I've just finished a Garrusmance ME2 run and I have to say I'm suprised how meaty ME2 Thane's romance content is compared to Garrus's.  I would totally reccomend it.


Uh, where is this coming from?  Thane has the second lowest amount of romamce content in ME2, only after Kelly.  The only real difference between a romance and non-romance play is a small, ~15 line LI-exclusive convo at the end.  By comparison, Garrus has something like 2 "friendship" convos but at least 4 LI-exclusive.

#809
Lucky Thirteen

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Big stupid jellyfish wrote...

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

I think Thane said it best. Entropy wins. Entropy always wins.


It made me think that Bioware failed my loyalty quest in ME3, just as you can fail Thane's in ME2. Customer 'Big stupid jellyfish': loyalty lost.

(Though to be honest, Thane's treatment is only part of my issues with ME3.)


That's my point really behind the quote. How can anyone really hope Bioware will come up with anything anyone really wants when the whole game is a disastor. They're just trying to plug leaks in a dam that's already broken open, flooded the town and drowned everyone.

Even if they did put something really amazing in their for Thane, like Kirrahe getting off his but and helping in the fight with Kai Leng so Thane can have a chance to live, I don't think I would buy the DLC. The very idea of them actually doing something with Thane frightens me cause I know they would royally screw it up. What is in there now is not Thane, even his illiness has be altered.There is so much other stuff in this game besides the ending that irks me so much these days that replaying is out of the question.

I'll just stay in my happy cult of ME2 version of Thane and my happy thoughts of what could have been. Nothing can be done about it now, Bioware didn't think the character as important as giving EDI some shiny ******.

#810
crimzontearz

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so there is the question again...WHAT feed back have they been listening to? What was their modus pensandi?

#811
CronoDragoon

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crimzontearz wrote...

so there is the question again...WHAT feed back have they been listening to? What was their modus pensandi?


All feedback. Listening =/= implementing. If you mean what feedback did they listen to with the intent to implement for ME3 DLC, then all feedback besides ending feedback, which I assume will only be used for planning future ME games.

#812
crimzontearz

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hence my second question, what was their modus pensandi

#813
thijs166

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Well players who romanced thane always knew that he had a terminal illness.

However i do agree that he deserved more content. I romanced him in on of my femshep playtroughs he fitted in my roleplaying i had set for her. I really wanted to make her tragic heroine with colonist and lone survivor backgrounds. But i felt like thane go cut short and my femshep didnt even care about him...

#814
cogsandcurls

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radishson wrote...

cogsandcurls wrote...

I've just finished a Garrusmance ME2 run and I have to say I'm suprised how meaty ME2 Thane's romance content is compared to Garrus's.  I would totally reccomend it.


Uh, where is this coming from?  Thane has the second lowest amount of romamce content in ME2, only after Kelly.  The only real difference between a romance and non-romance play is a small, ~15 line LI-exclusive convo at the end.  By comparison, Garrus has something like 2 "friendship" convos but at least 4 LI-exclusive.


It's coming from my experience during the ME2 playthrough I finished about three days ago. Must admit I didn't go around counting the lines :P Are there four Garrus LI convos? I got maybe two about them working out the logistics of interspecies banging, but after that nothing. Maybe I'm just judging them unfairly because I did the LotSB and the epilogue right at the end of runs, so with Thane I got an extra dossier bit and an epilogue convo, whereas all Garrus did when I tried to talk to him was him blowing Shep off saying he "remembered what we'd talked about" (?????).

My point was that yes, a ME2 Thane romance is totally worth doing at least once. Not knocking Garrus because it was a really fun sidestory  - and I daresay I'm going to enjoy his content a lot more in ME3 than I did Thane's! :P

On-topic: I really hope it isn't a holo or a letter. I'd sooner gain the ability to have an actual conversation with my squadmates about what happened, rather than discovering that Thane did in fact leave two separate send-after-death missives.

#815
Xellith

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CronoDragoon wrote...

Xellith wrote...

But thats not what people really mean when they said that our choices didnt matter.  We mean that the big choices had limited impacts.  Kill the rachni queen in ME1 or not.  Doesnt matter. Here is your alternative rachni queen.  Rewrite the heretics or destroy them?  Doesnt matter.  Have a change in EMS score. 


You aren't going to get far if you're trying to downplay the effect that has. It's one of the factors that determines the possibility for peace on Rannoch. Rannoch, in general, is really the pinnacle of the "your choices matter" ideal towards which the ME team strives.


Its a factor yes, but its just a basic variable.  Look, In order to achieve peace between the two races, you need to get 5 to
7 points. These points are based on your ME2 and ME3 decisions. If you
have 4 points or below, you cannot achieve peace.


-Rewrote the Heretics (0 points)

-Destroyed the Heretics (+2 points)

-Tali is NOT exiled (+2 points)

-Tali has been exiled/You did not do the Loyalty Mission (0 points)

-Resolved Legion/Tali conflict either using the Paragon or Renegade options (+1 point)

-N7 Mission: Save the Admiral on Rannoch in ME3 (+1 point)

-N7 Mission: Destroy Geth Squadron on Rannoch in ME3 (+1 point)

-Completed Legion's Mission in ME3 (or no peace)

This means that as long as Tali is NOT exiled, you resolve the Legion/Tali conflict using paragon/renegade options, and do the 2 N7 missions then you have peace.  The rewrite geth option in ME2 is NOT a pivitol moment.  The game doesnt  branch based on your choices.  It simply adds them to a score and then decides what to do.  Thats lazy.

No matter how you slice it, giving actions an arbitrary score which is added to other scores to = one of your options is lazy and diminishes the impact your choices are meant to have.

Rewriting the geth or not, could have not had any effect on the peace variable at all. What then?   You wouldnt even notice as long as you did the "right things" for the other options.

The value of the choices you make are severely diminished.

(but srsly im done being "off topic")

Modifié par Xellith, 01 mars 2013 - 06:28 .


#816
Han Shot First

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Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Guys, can we try to not get this thread shut down? Dusty didn't have to say, do or confirm anything as the DLC's out in just a few days. He apologized for the off-color comment and gave us the information we were asking for re: Thane's potential cure.


That is why Mass Effect devs rarely interact with fans on the BSN.

The moment they do they are often criticized for anything they say, harrassed as if they've wronged fans in some way, or even personally attacked. Kudos to Dusty for wading into the sewer otherwise known as the BSN.

#817
BunnyisCthulhu

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I... I don't know what to think or feel about this? Thank you, Dusty for coming in and giving your comments. I know it's a difficult subject to talk about and you'll never please everyone, but thank you for taking the time.


Overall, I think I'm going to wait and see with this dlc - as with all the others. I'll watch a Thane-romance playthrough on youtube and figure out if I want to go through with it myself from there. Right now I just don't have enough trust or faith left to believe anything involving Thane in this dlc will be positive or worthwhile.

#818
Dusty Everman

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Ninalupa wrote...
 I'll watch a Thane-romance playthrough on youtube and figure out if I want to go through with it myself from there.


Though I encourage you to wait for feedback from your fellow Thane enthusiasts before making a purchase, I encourage you not to watch it first on YouTube. Games are not movies, and watching something on Youtube just ruins a personal experience.  YouTube is a great venue for seeing the parts of the game you couldn't see for yourself (e.g. I had Wrex alive in my game, but how would this have played out if Wreav was in charge?) But as content devs, we try to craft an experience through pacing and choice.  We hope that you are immersed and in the moment, which can't happen through YouTube. You can only see something for the first time once.

#819
CronoDragoon

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Xellith wrote...
This means that as long as Tali is NOT exiled, you resolve the Legion/Tali conflict using paragon/renegade options, and do the 2 N7 missions then you have peace.  The rewrite geth option in ME2 is NOT a pivitol moment.  The game doesnt  branch based on your choices.  It simply adds them to a score and then decides what to do.  Thats lazy.


No, it isn't. It's logical. Having the entirety or even majority of the Rannoch peace decided by destroying/rewriting the heretics wouldn't make sense. You could even argue that as it stands it has too much of an effect on Rannoch peace, given that it's not obvious in ME2 which option would be more conducive to peace.

Branching based on choice only works when that one event can decide two unique paths. Rannoch isn't about that; it's about the multitude of choices you've made over the span of two games. Had Rannoch peace been available based solely on the outcome of one decision, it wouldn't be as effective a scenario as it is.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 01 mars 2013 - 07:36 .


#820
Maera Imrov

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I, too, just want to thank Dusty for coming in to speak with us. I always find it very cool when a dev speaks to their fanbase, regardless of game or reason, and always cringe a bit when things get heated. Especially if it's a bit of a hasty judgment. I mean, I know it's nowhere near the same, but I spent years in customer service, some of them as management, and it's really hard to please people even when they're just buying clothes. I'd hate to have to engage a gaming fanbase. I honestly don't think I could do it.

#821
Vlk3

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I want to thank you as well, Dusty, for coming here and talking to us. I have an exam on thursday and such bad news two days before that would make me unable to pass it. So, yeah, in some ways you really helped me.
I didn't feel offended by that zombie- Thane comment, though it actually made me realise that it is over and we lost everything.
So sweet and interesting character was wasted...

It also made me realise, that you, and here I mean BioWare, don't understand the problem here. Thane didn't have to die, there were several ways to save him, and that's why his inevitable death and content related to it will never make sense to most of the Thanemancers and people who simply liked Thane more than BioWare and other fans do. Can you imagine a woman in love, who doesn't even try to find a treatment/someone who can cure/help her partner?
Can you imagine a man in love, who knows that he could get a treatment for his illness (lung transplant for example), but ignores that and decides to just sit and wait for death, talking things like "It is a good end to a life" while entire galaxy is getting murdered by the Reapers?
Or, a father, who just started talking with his son afer years of absence, that decides to just leave him again, this time forever? Without even seeking a cure. Thane jumps on a sword, making a pathetic mistake for a cause that was never his (what does he have to do with the salarians?)

I assume the content we will get is some kind of memory or another letter, some kind of dream or even meeting a ghost of Thane (that would be so lame...). No matter how sweet and touching would that be, it still doesn't make sense at all. And I'd like to remind you all, that Thane had a wife. So across the sea, there is someone waiting for him already. There is nothing to look forward to. Everything is completely lost. On top of that, i find it hard to believe in afterlife, so there's either the love triangle with Irikah at the end of the journey or just nothing.

And though it was a CDN article, I think that a way to cure Thane was already discovered in ME Universe. It is called Eupulmos Device or the 'medi gel for lungs'. So no, Thane didn't have to die, and he died only because BioWare didn't care about their fans. What I don't understand is why you decided to be so stubborn? Citadel is clearly a fan- service DLC, you could at least make a way to let Thane survive the game, and let us headcanon the rest.

Modifié par Vlk3, 01 mars 2013 - 10:50 .


#822
Hainkpe

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Thane's story could have gone in so many directions. When Chris E. left, so too did the direction for Thane's character. I finished ME3 only once. I have not purchased any of the DLCs. I will not be purchasing the upcoming DLC.

Bioware missed one to many opportunities with ME3, not just with Thane but with the storyline as a whole. Thane is a character I enjoyed the most thus I felt the treatment the character received was disproportionate to the depth of his story. I was disappointed. To a certain extent, I still am. Bioware killed a character. That's all they did. What that character could have been was so much more than that. Too many opportunities lost.

#823
_Heather_Shepard_

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It is sad, but it is true. A waste of an amazing character. Unbelievable, Bioware.

#824
crimzontearz

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Dusty was nice enough to come and talk to us....and it was not up to him anyway

Although I still would like an answer

#825
_Heather_Shepard_

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crimzontearz wrote...

Dusty was nice enough to come and talk to us....and it was not up to him anyway

Although I still would like an answer


I believe it's just going to be flashbacks with Thane or some type of memorial/funeral type thing. Either way, my hopes have already been crushed.

But I'll keep on fighting for Thane, nonetheless.