51 réponses à ce sujet

[GeorgeZip]

dragonageman wrote...

Also, don't get me started about how frustrating it was to not have put any points into coercion. You basically have to play an evil character and kill everyone you meet unless you take this.

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Heh, I did the same thing. 

I think they should add a "knock" spell and "force lock" strength test like in BG2.  It won't open the best chests, for which you'd need a rogue, but would let you get stuff like potions and lesser gear from the easier chests.

[Kalcalan]

It all has to do with classes separating characters. A more flexible system would be to consider classes as basic careers that would allow you to specialize into some domains while allowing you to pick up some basic stuff from other classes by spending more points the way it worked in D&D. I'm not sure that would be better but it would be more flexible. In 3E nothing prevented you from taking one rank in lockpicking with a fighter, that wouldn't make your character good at it though.



The way it is implemented in DA, allowing non rogue characters to take more than one rank in lockpicking would ruin balance. Besides it wouldn't mean straying away from a character's specialty. Skillpoints are scarce enough as it is especially in the early game if you want to invest in Coercion and have to spread your points around.



Anyway it's not such a big deal. I played as a rogue in my first playthrough and that may account for the fact that I wasn't frustrated about this aspect of the game.

[jsachun]

Well rogues are spies & not soldiers. So I have to give it to Bioware with this one.

[wwwwowwww]

jsachun wrote...

Well rogues are spies & not soldiers. So I have to give it to Bioware with this one.

I think the question is which one is a soldier more likely to learn? Picking a lock or picking a pocket? I'd think picking a lock over picking a pocket. If your answer is neither then they should both be talents and not the way it is now.

[Lughsan35]

TheGriffonsShallRiseAgain wrote...

RobotXYZ wrote...

but then healing spell and taunt could be skills

no see healing is magic, and taunt is more of a battle skill were as stealth and lock picking only have one use stealth hides u lockpicking only works outside the field of battle

not true you can open locks while in battle

[System Shock]

lots of over-rationalization in this thread ..

...but the OP is correct. When you first play the game and choose a warrior, it is very frustrating to not be able to open chests and doors. Sure, after you play the game, you learn that the looting system is severely lacking, but that is not the point.

This to me also falls into the story inconsistency and immersion breakage categories.
You are the son of the Arl and you cannot go places and open doors in your own castle?
You are a warrior, have a sword that's bigger than you, and can't break open a rotting wooden chest you find deep inside a ruin?
You can kick-open doors only in Redcliffe?

Like beauty, balance is in the eye of the beholder
I feel that a role playing game should allow the player to have some level of natural and logical interaction with the environment.

Modifié par System Shock, 11 janvier 2010 - 01:08 .

[Sidney]

wwwwowwww wrote...
I think the question is which one is a soldier more likely to learn? Picking a lock or picking a pocket? I'd think picking a lock over picking a pocket. If your answer is neither then they should both be talents and not the way it is now.

Agree, they allowed that and that's certainly nothing a warrior would learn whereas we know, today, that plenty of soliders are taught to pick locks.

Well and then you have the traps question. I am mechanically enough inclined to make traps but not pick a lock? BTW, why can I build said traps but not disarm them?

Specialized tools? I can buy 'em.

While the stuff in chests isn't that all that useful the XP from those chests is. If they removed the XP gain from opening locks it doesn't matter to me. I will say that to finish the love letters quest you must open locks.

[jsachun]

Sidney wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...
I think the question is which one is a soldier more likely to learn? Picking a lock or picking a pocket? I'd think picking a lock over picking a pocket. If your answer is neither then they should both be talents and not the way it is now.

Agree, they allowed that and that's certainly nothing a warrior would learn whereas we know, today, that plenty of soliders are taught to pick locks.

Well and then you have the traps question. I am mechanically enough inclined to make traps but not pick a lock? BTW, why can I build said traps but not disarm them?

Specialized tools? I can buy 'em.

While the stuff in chests isn't that all that useful the XP from those chests is. If they removed the XP gain from opening locks it doesn't matter to me. I will say that to finish the love letters quest you must open locks.

A tech/engineer. I like the infiltrator. Mass Effect 2

[Maddyanne]

The traps really don't make any sense at all to me too. How can you not be able to disable traps if you can set them? You can pick up your own traps after a battle if they aren't set off. Taking skill ranks in trap setting makes it easier for your PC to see other people's traps too.

Perhaps the set traps skill could be some sort of more general tech skill that includes locks and disabling traps? Maybe only rogues get access to the Deft Hands talent and so are much better at locks and traps, but the skills could be available to everyone? Make it so rogues could do locks and traps even without having ranks in the gentech skill, and that would still improve with Deft Hands as it does now; but other classes would need to have at least one rank in the skill to try to open a lock/deal with a trap at all. They wouldn't be able to deal with the most difficult locks and traps, but they'd not be at a loss in the face of the basic ones.



As it is, it seems like a way for the devs to make rogues useful so the player will take them along.

(Not saying rogues aren't useful without exclusive tech skills. It's my favorite class. And DA rogues are great. I miss being able to have a bit of magical ability, but having Stealth actually work after the horror of NWN 2 is wonderful. But some folks see them that way.)

[Sidney]

Maddyanne wrote...

Perhaps the set traps skill could be some sort of more general tech skill that includes locks and disabling traps? Maybe only rogues get access to the Deft Hands talent and so are much better at locks and traps, but the skills could be available to everyone? Make it so rogues could do locks and traps even without having ranks in the gentech skill, and that would still improve with Deft Hands as it does now; but other classes would need to have at least one rank in the skill to try to open a lock/deal with a trap at all. They wouldn't be able to deal with the most difficult locks and traps, but they'd not be at a loss in the face of the basic ones.

I think this is an excellent suggestion.

[brask_me]

Given that lockpicking is really a non-combat skill, and almost all talents seem to be combat oriented, I would also like to see it as a skill rather than a talent. I think it should be open to all classes, but have minimum requirements in Dexterity and Cunning in order to use (say, high dex and moderate cunning; dex 16, cunning 14 for level 1, +2 each level thereafter). If I want to gimp my warrior or mage to meet the requirements for Device Master IV by raising my off-class stats, so be it! Makes for good roleplaying, IMO.

[x-president]

It does kinda suck. What is even worse you have to be lvl 4 lockpick for it to even matter or you still miss out. So really no matter if you play rogue or not, you will not be able to access everything until you get into the main part of the game.

[Tinxa]

What bothered me was that Zevran didn't have any lockpicking talents. With him you have to start from nothing which means he's pretty much useless for opening dificult chests or always use Leliana if the PC isn't a rogue. If you only have 2 rogues to choose from for your party they could at least both be decent lockpickers

[ChaoticBroth]

x-president wrote...

It does kinda suck. What is even worse you have to be lvl 4 lockpick for it to even matter or you still miss out. So really no matter if you play rogue or not, you will not be able to access everything until you get into the main part of the game.

Not really. The formula for lockpicking was this, last I checked:

(cunning-10) + 10*(lockpicking rank)

With this knowledge, you need 70 CUN and no LP rank, 60 CUN and 1 LP rank, and so on if you want to open every chest in-game. Basically, if you are running a high-CUN build, you don't need that many points invested.

[x-president]

ChaoticBroth wrote...

x-president wrote...

It does kinda suck. What is even worse you have to be lvl 4 lockpick for it to even matter or you still miss out. So really no matter if you play rogue or not, you will not be able to access everything until you get into the main part of the game.

Not really. The formula for lockpicking was this, last I checked:

(cunning-10) + 10*(lockpicking rank)

With this knowledge, you need 70 CUN and no LP rank, 60 CUN and 1 LP rank, and so on if you want to open every chest in-game. Basically, if you are running a high-CUN build, you don't need that many points invested.

Don't you need lockpick lvl 4 to unlock certain chests though otherwise why even have it?  I havent played rogues yet as a character so I'm not totally sure.  Lelina right now can't open everything, but I'm not sure what her cunning lvl is at but she is lockpick lvl 3.

[phordicus]

i think the better question is, why the **** are game designers still putting locked chests with random, usually trivial, loot all over the place?

[Bibdy]

The skill level doesn't matter, only the total score. Skill level is just one way of increasing the score, Cunning is the other.



Bottom line is only Rogues are capable of opening locks, and the hardest chests to open require a score of 60. How you reach a score of 60 is up to you, by using the formula:



Score = 10*(lockpick rank) + (Cunning) - 10



There are 2 variables you can modify to get there. How you do it, is up to you.

[Bibdy]

At any rate, on to the original OP, I always felt like rogues should have some kind of advantage due to lockpicking. I think that Warriors and Mages should be able to blow the chest open, but the act of doing so ALWAYS destroys the most expensive (read: delicate) item in the chest, regardless of what it is. That way only by having a Rogue will you gain access to the really cool stuff you can find from chests, but everyone else can still get something from it.

[whiteraider]

What really annoys me isnt that you can't bash open simple chests or doors, but that Leliana keeps telling me she can open things, when in fact she can't!

On this run she was with me as an archer, as I'm the scout!  

[whiteraider]

Double post


Also thinking about this, wouldn't good locks be magical not mechanical anyway?

Modifié par whiteraider, 13 janvier 2010 - 11:40 .

[ITSSEXYTIME]

Both Stealth and Lockpicking appear to have been Skills originally based off some toolset stuff.  Personally I think it would have been better if they were skills but required stats that Rogue's are most likely to have (Eg, cunning and dex requirements)  As talents I feel they make the Rogue tree much too large (16 talent points for one achievement when Mages only have to spend 4 and warriors 8)  and would allow Rogue's to more easily split between melee and archery (getting talents in each ) adding some depth to the class. (Rogue's are fun, but once you choose Melee/Ranged you don't really use the other, although occasionally melee rogues might use a bow 

[Sylvius the Mad]

I actually prefer how the Rogue works to the other classes. The Rogue has to choose between combat and non-combat talents all funded by the same point pool. They can be better at combat tasks or non-combat tasks, but they can't excel at both.

I wish all the characters had been designed this way. Certainly mages could have been - give them non-combat spells. Or just make all the skills work like talents, so everyone has to choose between them all of the time.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 14 janvier 2010 - 12:31 .

[AsheraII]

I think there should be a set of class-related skills, and that lockpicking, stealth and stealing should be moved into the rogue's class skills. So still not available to other classes, but more accessible to rogues.

Warriors would then get their own class-skills as well (like the one for tactics slots), and mages would also get their own class-skills.



So no, I don't think other people should get their hands on a lock-opening skill. The amount of locked chests in Ostagar could probably do with a little tweaking though, just a few less than there are now.

[RangerSG]

Nope, I couldn't disagree more with the idea of making other classes lockpickers too. I also don't buy letting chests get bashed. Not without destroying anything and everything fragile in the chest (read, ALL potions, ALL gems, and any other item that depends on quality for worth). An "open locks" spell? I don't see any other spells in-game that assume remote manipulation of small objects. So that seems to mitigate against that idea, too.