342 réponses à ce sujet

[Dr_Extrem]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...
its not even a real war story .. only a story, that takes place during a war.

Like... literally everything you do in ME3 has you trying to win the war against the Reapers. It couldn't be more of a war drama.

really? .. i was not fighting a war in me3 .. i was babysitting and doing commando-stuff.

the war happens off screen, while shepard plays diplomat. the war hits us 3 times ... prologue, thessia and london.

and on thessia, we are busy doing .. right commando stuff.


shepard sees the war .. but does not sit in the trenches.


its a story, that happens during a war.

[SurfaceBeneath]

You're splitting hairs. War Dramas take all sorts of forms. Some follow soldiers, others follow commanders, others follow civilians. If a work is set in a war and pertains mostly to that war, it is by default a war drama.

[Mr.House]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
War drama's don't have idiotic people in high command giving stupid orders that a kid would give, at least not good war drama's.

I take it you haven't actually seen many war dramas.

Many war dramas are about orders gone bad or people put in impossible situations because of their orders. Hell, this is the entire premise of Saving Private Ryan.

Please don't even try to compare a good movie like Saving Private Ryan to ME3. The bad orders in ME3 are coming from people who before ME3 did not making stupid choices and orders. Hackett in ME3 is so OOC and not the same character from ME1/2.

[Sir George Parr]

As a customer of Bioware you don't have to buy this product. If from the announcement you see it adds nothing to the product you would like to see like additional content at the end or some actually hope at the end of the story. Vote with your wallet and save your money and walkaway from this sorry saga. See how you feel when Mass Effect rears its head again. If you feel its like opening old wound again just don't come back to this Bioware product.
The whole affair has being toxic and unpleasant for a lot of people and if this is how Bioware want to leave their story you shouldn't feel compelled to spend money on something that makes you depressed and miserable as there is nothing at the end but a betrayal of hope.

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...

To be honest, that's been the heart of the endings debate since the start, though it may not always have been clear.  And of course, Shepard's death was the lungs...

Sure. Only reason I replied the way I did to MerinTB was that rhetoric like his isn't helpful if we're trying to have a serious debate. Of course, that assumes that serious debate is what he was here for, which was probably a mistake on my part.

I'm generally with drayfish.  Sure there's room for dark and gritty in games.  Exhibit A being the Witcher series.  But Mass Effect had always been more escapist fantasy.  Space opera of the Star Wars/Star Trek/Babylon 5 mold.  Genreally speaking, there was always a way out.  Maybe with losses, but they were acceptable.  Blindsiding the audience in the final few minutes was not cool.

That's reasonable. I've been wanting Bio to move away from the escapism for a while, myself. So I saw the change as positive even though I wasn't a huge fan of the execution. But yeah, it is a change.

Modifié par AlanC9, 23 février 2013 - 09:04 .

[Rip504]

Opinions not facts.

[Mcfly616]

Mr.House wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

iamthedave3 wrote...

If these endings are 'great' then the gaming industry's standards really are low these days...

its better than a lot of other games endings this past year. AC3, FC3, BL2.....all their conclusions are worse than ME3's. And yet, all of them were up for GOTY.

only one of the endings was truly bad in FarCry 3, the other one was ok, still better then that failure in ME3.

yeaaaah right. Don't get me wrong, FC3 was an awesome game....gameplay-wise. Other than that, the story and characters(besides the villains) were atrocious. To say ME3s ending is worse than either of FC3's endings is a clear demonstration of your bias against ME3.


In fact, FC3's ending is the most contrived, most "Wtf?" ending I have ever seen. It's so ridiculous that I was laughing my ass off. I didn't care much, as it was just as stupid as the entire narrative. So I wasn't expecting much. A big difference compared to my reaction to ME3s original endings a year ago. I was pissed off, because it could've been so much better. But, FC3s ending.....it was just so idiotic that all I could do was laugh.


Regarding BL2, I guess I'm in the minority when it comes to that game. I bought it to see what all the hype was about, but all it is is your everyday run of the mill shooter. Nothing special whatsoever. Loot and cell shaded graphics....that's it. I was thoroughly disappointed. It can't even sniff the dirt on the bottom of Halo 4's boots. Lol


At the end of the day, we all have out preferences.

[Iakus]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...
The Mass Effect series is a hodgepodge of tones. There are lighthearted parts and there are extremely dark parts. Stuff like the Genophage, the near genocide of the Quarians, and missions like Overlord were quite bleak. There was no "Blindsiding" because the game was building up to the final battle and continually pounding us over the head with the fact that this was a near unwinnable war that would have an insane number of casualties. There's nothing inconsistent about those last few minutes when it was coreographed for the last 20 something hours.

Near unwinnable battles is a staple of virtually every high fantasy story ever written.  Heck even Dragon Age Origins has Allistair saying "No Blight has even been defeated without the assistance of a half-dozen nations"

And here we have Commander Shepard, who's been winning unwinnable scenerios since before ME1, suddenly helpless before the Starchild.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Mr.House wrote...
Please don't even try to compare a good movie like Saving Private Ryan to ME3. The bad orders in ME3 are coming from people who before ME3 did not making stupid choices and orders. Hackett in ME3 is so OOC and not the same character from ME1/2.

What are you talking about? I wasn't "comparing" the two and I never said anything about Hackett in ME3. Don't try to argue with someone if you don't actually have something to say about their point.

[AlanC9]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Huh? ME3 had a demo.

And I'm not sure what the rest of this has to do with the thread. Whatever else the ending is, it isn't simple. MEHEM is simpler.

this is the last thing i respect bioware for - a demo.

games in general are getting more and more simple .. mehem is a simple ending .. sure .. not problem with that. no need get personal - but if the shoe fits .. 

i was talking about the meat - the gameplay. mehem is not gameplay .. its a fanfiction.

games are becoming like fast food.

So you're just going off-topic and complaining about non-ending stuff in an ending thread? Well, OK, but aren't there other threads for that?

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...
Near unwinnable battles is a staple of virtually every high fantasy story ever written.  Heck even Dragon Age Origins has Allistair saying "No Blight has even been defeated without the assistance of a half-dozen nations"

And here we have Commander Shepard, who's been winning unwinnable scenerios since before ME1, suddenly helpless before the Starchild.

I guess Shepard used up all of his Doing The Impossible points when he actually managed to activate the Crucible.

Modifié par AlanC9, 23 février 2013 - 09:08 .

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

That's reasonable. I've been wanting Bio to move away from the escapism for a while, myself. So I saw the change as positive even though I wasn't a huge fan of the execution. But yeah, it is a change.

If that's a change they wanted to do, they should have done it after finishing Shepard's arc.  Start fresh with someone new.  But end this story on the same note that it started.  that's what makes MEHEM so great for me.  It does exactly that.

That's why I didn't react as negatively as others to the changes in DA2.  Different story.  Different setting.  Different protagonist.

Modifié par iakus, 23 février 2013 - 09:07 .

[SurfaceBeneath]

iakus wrote...
And here we have Commander Shepard, who's been winning unwinnable scenerios since before ME1, suddenly helpless before the Starchild.

"Helpless?" You get every choice how to activate the Crucible as you would like it as it was designed. The Starchild has no power over you to influence your decisions at all. The Starchild is a glorified instruction manual. 

[Dr_Extrem]

Mr.House wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
War drama's don't have idiotic people in high command giving stupid orders that a kid would give, at least not good war drama's.

I take it you haven't actually seen many war dramas.

Many war dramas are about orders gone bad or people put in impossible situations because of their orders. Hell, this is the entire premise of Saving Private Ryan.

Please don't even try to compare a good movie like Saving Private Ryan to ME3. The bad orders in ME3 are coming from people who before ME3 did not making stupid choices and orders. Hackett in ME3 is so OOC and not the same character from ME1/2.

its a good hollywood movie ... but not a good war drama.

read this book http://en.wikipedia....e_Western_Front and watch the movie from 1930.

this book is really good too http://en.wikipedia...._Brücke_(novel) the german movie from 1959 is good as well.

and off course this piece http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_boot - the book is even better.

[Mr.House]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

iamthedave3 wrote...

If these endings are 'great' then the gaming industry's standards really are low these days...

its better than a lot of other games endings this past year. AC3, FC3, BL2.....all their conclusions are worse than ME3's. And yet, all of them were up for GOTY.

only one of the endings was truly bad in FarCry 3, the other one was ok, still better then that failure in ME3.

yeaaaah right. Don't get me wrong, FC3 was an awesome game....gameplay-wise. Other than that, the story and characters(besides the villains) were atrocious. To say ME3s ending is worse than either of FC3's endings is a clear demonstration of your bias against ME3.


In fact, FC3's ending is the most contrived, most "Wtf?" ending I have ever seen. It's so ridiculous that I was laughing my ass off. I didn't care much, as it was just as stupid as the entire narrative. So I wasn't expecting much. A big difference compared to my reaction to ME3s original endings a year ago. I was pissed off, because it could've been so much better. But, FC3s ending.....it was just so idiotic that all I could do was laugh.


Regarding BL2, I guess I'm in the minority when it comes to that game. I bought it to see what all the hype was about, but all it is is your everyday run of the mill shooter. Nothing special whatsoever. Loot and cell shaded graphics....that's it. I was thoroughly disappointed. It can't even sniff the dirt on the bottom of Halo 4's boots. Lol


At the end of the day, we all have out preferences.

Um I outright said ME3 had a better ending then one of FarCry 3's ending, you know what ending I'm talking about. The other ending however was ok. I did not say it was fantastic, but it was still better then ME3 ending. I'm also not bias towards ME3.

[Dr_Extrem]

AlanC9 wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Huh? ME3 had a demo.

And I'm not sure what the rest of this has to do with the thread. Whatever else the ending is, it isn't simple. MEHEM is simpler.

this is the last thing i respect bioware for - a demo.

games in general are getting more and more simple .. mehem is a simple ending .. sure .. not problem with that. no need get personal - but if the shoe fits .. 

i was talking about the meat - the gameplay. mehem is not gameplay .. its a fanfiction.

games are becoming like fast food.

So you're just going off-topic and complaining about non-ending stuff in an ending thread? Well, OK, but aren't there other threads for that?

its not that far off topic ... mass effect in general (while still a decent game) shows the same "wear and tear" - pushing out the game, as fast as possible and fix things later .. or not.

[Mr.House]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

iakus wrote...
And here we have Commander Shepard, who's been winning unwinnable scenerios since before ME1, suddenly helpless before the Starchild.

"Helpless?" You get every choice how to activate the Crucible as you would like it as it was designed. The Starchild has no power over you to influence your decisions at all. The Starchild is a glorified instruction manual. 

Starbrat can shut off the cruible.

[The Night Mammoth]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

iakus wrote...
And here we have Commander Shepard, who's been winning unwinnable scenerios since before ME1, suddenly helpless before the Starchild.

"Helpless?" You get every choice how to activate the Crucible as you would like it as it was designed. The Starchild has no power over you to influence your decisions at all. The Starchild is a glorified instruction manual. 

It takes the form of the child which has been haunting Shepard in nightmares for months. 

If that's not a sign of manipulation I don't know what is. 

[MerinTB]

AlanC9 wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
I think the difference the OP means is, after you witness your own death and the death and destruction of everything you hold dear, can you enjoy building that up KNOWING what is going to happen?

Huh? If you don't want everything you hold dear destroyed, just don't pick Refuse. It's not rocket science.

So, in real life, if I want my family, house, and friends to never be destroyed, there's some "Refuse" option that makes it happen and I can just not pick it?

Do I have to visit a government agency for that, or a church?

...

Or you could quote me in context instead of mixing up what I was saying.  But then, you know, you wouldn't have your straw man.

[chasemme]

So wait, what are we arguing about? Just the ending again? Awesome. I'm sure we'll bring up some points that haven't been discussed over the past YEAR.

On topic. No, I'm excited for the DLC. The combat arena sounds like a lot of fun. The endings haven't been a problem since Leviathan.

[Clayless]

Mr.House wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

iakus wrote...
And here we have Commander Shepard, who's been winning unwinnable scenerios since before ME1, suddenly helpless before the Starchild.

"Helpless?" You get every choice how to activate the Crucible as you would like it as it was designed. The Starchild has no power over you to influence your decisions at all. The Starchild is a glorified instruction manual. 

Starbrat can shut off the cruible.

No he can't.

To skip to the end of this argument, we both have the same amount of evidence that he turned it off or it deactivated from damage.

So "I think "Starbrat" can shut off the Crucible" would be a more accurate statement.

[Dean_the_Young]

Mr.House wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

iakus wrote...
And here we have Commander Shepard, who's been winning unwinnable scenerios since before ME1, suddenly helpless before the Starchild.

"Helpless?" You get every choice how to activate the Crucible as you would like it as it was designed. The Starchild has no power over you to influence your decisions at all. The Starchild is a glorified instruction manual. 

Starbrat can shut off the cruible.

If you choose not to choose. And?

[Dean_the_Young]

MerinTB wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
I think the difference the OP means is, after you witness your own death and the death and destruction of everything you hold dear, can you enjoy building that up KNOWING what is going to happen?

Huh? If you don't want everything you hold dear destroyed, just don't pick Refuse. It's not rocket science.

So, in real life, if I want my family, house, and friends to never be destroyed, there's some "Refuse" option that makes it happen and I can just not pick it?

Do I have to visit a government agency for that, or a church?

...

Or you could quote me in context instead of mixing up what I was saying.  But then, you know, you wouldn't have your straw man.

Neither would you, but hey.

[MerinTB]

EntropicAngel wrote...
Really? I would argue the opposite: that it's a very, very common conception, not in fiction but in real life, that finging out you will die within X time makes people more altruistic.

Some do.  Most don't.  Each individuals end reactions, how to spend their last days, are as unique as those individuals.  But upon hearing the news reactions are near universal -

"There's an overall pattern of how humans deal with forthcoming death,"
said Sherri McCarthy, a professor of psychology and a grief counselor at
Northern Arizona University. "Shock or denial is a pretty universal
first reaction. Patients say 'it's not me' or 'I'll go to a different
doctor.'"

Eventually, these feelings usually transform into depression or anger,
McCarthy said, and then later into "bargaining," a term used to describe
when patients try to rationalize the situation and convince themselves
they can do certain things to prevent their death.
http://abcnews.go.co...=4402744&page=2

All psychological studies show that, for the majority of people, knowing of their impending death does not cause altruism or peace (though MANY, in hopes of easing the problems for their loved ones, will get very, very good at ACTING like they are at peace.)  That isn't to say some don't reach acceptance - some do.  But it's not the common response.

Human beings have a
basic self-preservation drive. Combining this drive with the realization
that death is inevitable creates in them a paralyzing terror of death. In
other words all human drama is, to a great extent, a story of how human
beings cope with the terror of death, and how they overcome death anxiety
through a great variety of conscious efforts and unconscious defense
mechanisms.

(...)

All living organisms die; there is no exception.
However, human beings alone are burdened with the cognitive capacity to be
aware of their own inevitable mortality and to fear what may come
afterwards. In this enlightened age, man still reacts to death with fear.
Much of our response to death is avoidance. Talking about death on a
personal level creates discomfort. Fear and anxiety are among the most
frequently used to characterize orientations toward death throughout the
life span. This is because human beings have a basic self-preservation
drive. Combining this drive with the realization that death is inevitable
creates in them a paralyzing terror of death.
http://www.psyplexus...cl/death_2.html

EntropicAngel wrote...
My proof is an awful Inspirational country song that I loathe:

"I went skydivin', I went,
Rocky Mountain climbin', I went
3.7 seconds, on a Bull named Fu Manchu
And I looked deeper and I,
spoke sweeter, and I
gave forgiveness I'd been denyin'
And someday i hope you get the chance
to live like you were dyin'."

I don't know that I can fight a country song - irrefutable proof, I suppose.

With another song?

"Will I lose my dignity?

Will someone care?

Will I wake tomorrow

From this nightmare?"