53 réponses à ce sujet

[Doctor Feh]

My wife mocks me for this even bothering me, but the thing is, Bioware puts such attention to detail into their created worlds that little oddities can leave me head-scratching in between slaughtering darkspawn.

We know that casteless dwarves are branded at birth with the mark of their shame, so that any dwarf can tell what they are on sight. But my question is, who is branding them? These are births that aren't entered into the Shaperate records, and in point of fact aren't even supposed to happen. Casteless dwarves don't exist. They're exiled out of sight, out of mind. Patrols don't even bother with Dust Town. So why would midwives? Are the parents branding their own offspring? Seems far-fetched, considering most casteless have little to no regard for the laws and traditions which exclude them... might as well let your babe go bare cheeked and let the powers that be figure it out if they dare.

I suppose I could see it happening in the case of noble hunters... they'd have patrons who would have a stake in the offspring and thus pull some strings to have professionals present at a birth, and then if the child ended up female those same professionals would be obligated to brand them. But you'd think the ratio of births from a result of noble hunter trysts to other pregnancies involving one or more casteless would be small.

Has anyone run into some deeper lore on this I haven't? It would seem more likely most casteless dwarves aren't actually branded, which I suppose is backed up by the fact that when you create a dwarf commoner PC you don't have to keep the casteless tattoo s/he starts with by default. I know there's the one dwarf merchant from the surface you talk to who has a 'temporary tattoo' of casteless he has to wear while in Orzammar, but that's a whole other can of deepstalkers.

Any thoughts?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I've kind of wondered at this myself. I remember hearing that agents of the Shaperate brand them at birth, but somehow, since, as you mentioned, the casteless live outside of society, so i can't see them presenting their kids to be branded. Unless the Shaperate occasionally sends patrols into Dust Town to look for any unbranded faces and then do the deed, but I'd imagine that alot of parents might simply try and hide their kids in such an event.



Good question, though.

[MyKingdomCold]

well if they were branded at birth, then the tatoo would grow along with the dwarf!

[SusanStoHelit]

Good question. I have never caught any reference to how it could happen. Perhaps it is mentioned in the books?

[Sarielle]

Well damn. I wish you hadn't brought this up, because now it'll bother me, too. <_<

[melkathi]

I don't think the books cover that much dwarven detail either, Susan.



Probably it is simply an oversight on Bioware's part...

[Raoune]

I like to think its something done within ranks by the Carta, to show who they own.

[rayvioletta]

well there wouldn't be much good hiding a child to evade the branding, without a House to claim them they'd still obviously be Castess as soon as they failed to identify themselves. and it's probably a serious crime to be both without a House and a Brand

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

But not all casteless belong to the Carta, or have any traffic with them.

[Tor_pedo]

Its obvious: Santa claus comes down and brands them while they sleep. its his "gift" to the castless on xmas morning.



just beware, maybe he comes and brands you too o_O

[SarEnyaDor]

Well, I got the impression they were tattoos, not actual brands as in burned into the skin. There was that one dialogue talking about "tatoos all over his face as if he were proud to be castless!" i think from the Shaperate who wanted the stolen book back. I think they just call them brands, but not that they are literally branded, because there are castless without marks on their faces,a nd you an not have a mark if you so choose.



I think the castless take it upon themselves to tattoo themselves as ways of identifying groups, pride, whatever.

[SusanStoHelit]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Well, I got the impression they were tattoos, not actual brands as in burned into the skin.

Well, I think we all know that, it's just a matter of how tattooing would be enforced.

I think the castless take it upon themselves to tattoo themselves as ways of identifying groups, pride, whatever.

I don't think so. They're not proud of who they are, for the most part. They are almost all trying to get out of this group - except those who've given up altogether. Hence the noble hunters, and the casteless men trying to father a daughter (like what happened with Zerlinda). I think those proud of their status are limited to a few carta members.

[Scott McPot]

I did notice a patrol in dust town only once I created a dwarf commoner could it be that he was searching for castless without the brand on there face... I mean it would make sense because why would the nobles have full suited men in there to "keep the peace".

[SarEnyaDor]

But the noble hunters didn't have brands, and half of the castless begging for coins from PC in dust-town didn't, either. And when you role up a dwarf commoner you not forced to take a tattoo...



If it was a done at birth thing, that would require official notice, paperwork, etc which would go against the "YOU DON'T EXIST!!!" most of the dwarves reguard them with, they are mostly ignored. Shoot, whole cities up and left and the castless didn't know about it until they were the only ones left.



But I'm scouring my codex entries now, and then I'll crack upon this book I paid an arm and a leg for to see if there is any official word on it.



*is super curious now*

[SarEnyaDor]

The book has nothing. Though, surface dwarves (born there or who left the Stone) are also castless if they ever return.



Berhat is castless and has no brand (unless it's under his beard LOL).

[SusanStoHelit]

Well, all the wiki has to say on the subject of tattoos is the following:

Facial tattoos serve an important function in several cultures in Ferelden. Among dwarves, the casteless are tattooed to set them apart from regular dwarven citizens. The Dalish elves tattoo their faces with the symbol of their gods as a symbol of their loyalty to their elven heritage. Facial tattoos are uncommon among humans, and usually reflect descent from a prominent tribe.


And:

Orzammar society considers these casteless lower than even the Servant Caste (indeed, the casteless are not allowed to become servants, as it is too honorable a position). They are seen as little better than animals, their faces branded at birth to mark them as the bastard children of the kingdom. Their home district, little more than a slum, is a haven for crime, organized and otherwise. Orzammar's guards seemingly cannot be bothered to patrol its streets. The best that most casteless dwarves can hope for is a life at the whim of a local crime lord, ended abruptly by violence or an overabundance of toxic lichen ale.

[Edited for formatting.]

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 11 janvier 2010 - 01:59 .

[SarEnyaDor]

LOL @ toxic lichen ale. Reminds me of Oghren saying dwarven ale tastes like dirt because it's made with it.



Well, I don't know if I'd put the wiki's info over the book by the game designer's (lack of) info, but that brings us back to the question of why would dwarves who spend all their time pretending these people don't exisit put time and resources and paperwork and prenatal monitoring to be able to determine when castless women are going to go into labor just to brand some dwarves they are going to promptly deny are entities.



Seems counter-productive to me.

[Aesong]

I had always assumed it was the shaperate that did the branding. I MAY BE WRONG. D:

[SusanStoHelit]

Me too, and most everyone else I think, hence the OPs question. Strange and unexplained.

Edit: oops, someone posted while I was typing. This is in response to previous comment by SarEnyaDor.

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 11 janvier 2010 - 02:05 .

[SarEnyaDor]

Inquiring minds want to know!!!



Maybe one of the writers will meander through here and sate our curiousity.... *hopes alot*

[savagesparrow]

.....Enchantment?



XD

[Eruanna Guerrein]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I've kind of wondered at this myself. I remember hearing that agents of the Shaperate brand them at birth, but somehow, since, as you mentioned, the casteless live outside of society, so i can't see them presenting their kids to be branded. Unless the Shaperate occasionally sends patrols into Dust Town to look for any unbranded faces and then do the deed, but I'd imagine that alot of parents might simply try and hide their kids in such an event.

Good question, though.

I'm pretty sure at some point during that origin you're told you aren't even allowed to show your face in front of the shaperate so I don't think that can be it.

I did notice a guard in Dust Town during the origin though. Not sure what he was doing down there. Seems strange there weren't any there later.

[SarEnyaDor]

That's a thought, maybe they don't care if you are branded unless you try to leave to go to the market or what not and then those guards do it to ensure that everyone who sees you knows that you don't belong outside of the Dust Town to make sure you go back....

[Aesong]

Eruanna Guerrein wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I've kind of wondered at this myself. I remember hearing that agents of the Shaperate brand them at birth, but somehow, since, as you mentioned, the casteless live outside of society, so i can't see them presenting their kids to be branded. Unless the Shaperate occasionally sends patrols into Dust Town to look for any unbranded faces and then do the deed, but I'd imagine that alot of parents might simply try and hide their kids in such an event.

Good question, though.

I'm pretty sure at some point during that origin you're told you aren't even allowed to show your face in front of the shaperate so I don't think that can be it.

I did notice a guard in Dust Town during the origin though. Not sure what he was doing down there. Seems strange there weren't any there later.

It makes sense that theres no guards there later, because with there being no king, Orzammar is in a huge state of unrest. Thats how Jarvia got bold enough to harrass shop keepers in the commons.

[Duncan Hills Coffee]

this forum will haunt my dreams for nights to come. i will not stop thinking about it until i figure it out.