53 réponses à ce sujet

[SarEnyaDor]

I think you are mocking us, ser! I demand satisfaction!

[Kepha]

I don't think the noble hunters in the Noble orign are casteless. Casteless probably wouldn't even be allowed in the Diamond Quarter. I think they just lower caste women hoping to move up.

It seems to me that the dwarves keep really good track of babies and who's related to who. Non-casteless births are recorded with the Shaperate. I would assume there is some sort of authority who is going through branding the casteless babies. Dwarves have a low birth rate, so it wouldn't be that hard to keep up with them. And it really wouldn't help a casteless mother to try and hide the baby, as it still wouldn't have any status in dwarven society since there would be no record of it at the Shaperate.

Modifié par Kepha, 11 janvier 2010 - 02:59 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

As mentioned, we know the casteless are branded at birth. Since the higher dwarves appear not to know this (the line "tattoos all over his face as if he were proud to be castless!" doesn't make any sense if the speaker knows the markings aren't voluntary), I'd suggest it is strictly a casteless tradition. The castless brand themselves, and then their continues existance is a constant show of resistance to the dwarven traditions that exclude them.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 11 janvier 2010 - 03:01 .

[Herr Uhl]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

As mentioned, we know the casteless are branded at birth. Since the higher dwarves appear not to know this (the line "tattoos all over his face as if he were proud to be castless!" doesn't make any sense if the speaker knows the markings aren't voluntary), I'd suggest it is strictly a casteless tradition. The castless brand themselves, and then their continues existance is a constant show of resistance to the dwarven traditions that exclude them.

They could get a basic brand at birth. Then he could decide to enlarge it later in life.

[SarEnyaDor]

Herr Uhl might be onto something, all of the tattoos have the same basic cheek mark as part of them....

Modifié par SarEnyaDor, 11 janvier 2010 - 03:09 .

[Doctor Feh]

Just was going to point out the wiki entry is taken directly from the in-game Codex on Casteless, so we can take it as canon the phrase "They are seen as little better than animals, their faces branded at birth to mark them as the bastard children of the kingdom."

I don't know, the context of that sentence really makes it seem like the branding isn't self-inflicted. Though I agree with the observation that the more elaborate commoner tattoos seem to build off of the basic casteless brand.

Then again there are several documented real-life cultures where ritual mutilations are inflicted out of tradition, or more simply "My parents did it to me, so I'm doing it to you." But they make such a big deal of the casteless scoffing at tradition that it would have been nice to see clarification somewhere in all those walls o' text on Dwarf culture.

Also on the subject of why bother hiding the baby when it's not recorded... that again begs the question, why bother branding it?

Modifié par Doctor Feh, 11 janvier 2010 - 03:32 .

[Jester8183]

Kepha wrote...

I don't think the noble hunters in the Noble orign are casteless. Casteless probably wouldn't even be allowed in the Diamond Quarter. I think they just lower caste women hoping to move up.

It seems to me that the dwarves keep really good track of babies and who's related to who. Non-casteless births are recorded with the Shaperate. I would assume there is some sort of authority who is going through branding the casteless babies. Dwarves have a low birth rate, so it wouldn't be that hard to keep up with them. And it really wouldn't help a casteless mother to try and hide the baby, as it still wouldn't have any status in dwarven society since there would be no record of it at the Shaperate.

I agree with Kepha.  While the Shaperate doesn't record the births of casteless they would need to keep track of their birth for the cast system to work.  Surely, the Nobles wouldn't have a problem swiping casteless babies and simply saying they were their own to bolster the ranks of their failing house.  And, while the Shaper of Memories wouldn't have any contact with the casteless himself, it must be someone in the Shaperate's job to find "non-births" of the casteless so the pollution of bloodlines and the stone don't occur.

Not to mention that taking actions outside your caste is strickly forbidden in Orzammar for which the penalty is, probably more than not, death.  Especially for a casteless.

What I find odd is Brother Burkel.  He is a dwarf who left for the surface (or was born on the surface... I'm not sure which). So if he left Orzammar he has given up his caste and clan according to Brother Genitiv[/b]i[/b]'s codex entry on dwarven society and is casteless (or he was surface born and is casteless).  [/b]How can a casteless dwarf be able to petition the Shaper of Memories for anything?  And why doesn't he have to wear a brand?  Or is he and I just didn't notice it?  And why would the Shaper allow a casteless dwarf to open an anything in the merchant quarter?  As far as he is concerned Brother Burkel A) doesn't exist or is an Outsider.

[SarEnyaDor]

wait - don't forget that if a castless woman bears a noble man's son she is raised up and so are her relatives, so that sort of throws out the discourages/polluting the nobility thing - as long as it's a son of a noble it's all good.. it works the opposite for women, a noble woman would have to make sure that she's with someone of her caste or higher otherwise if she has a daughter she risks being cast out of her caste

[Herr Uhl]

No, the father of that daughter would be raised to her position.



The son would however be casteless, but the woman would remain at her position.

[Jester8183]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

wait - don't forget that if a castless woman bears a noble man's son she is raised up and so are her relatives, so that sort of throws out the discourages/polluting the nobility thing - as long as it's a son of a noble it's all good.. it works the opposite for women, a noble woman would have to make sure that she's with someone of her caste or higher otherwise if she has a daughter she risks being cast out of her caste

Not quite, if the woman in question has a daughter it would be of her caste not the caste of the child's father.  Noble hunting is more often (it seems) done by women trying to improve their caste.  Though with Zerlinda you see that this is also attempted by men.  I do wonder how long the practice of Noble Hunting and when the ruling that a the child has the cast of its same sex parent came to be?  Was it around since the start or was the loophole added later after the decline of the dwaves?

But as it stands the dwaves probably don't see any pollution since the opposite sex parent doesn't exist as far as the Shaperate is concerned. 

[SarEnyaDor]

So that merchant family that cast out their daughter unless she killed her castless son was just being extra jerky then? I usually encourage her to go to the surface and make a life for her and her son there, I like it better than when I convince her father to take her and her son back in.

edited to add -> yeah, I re-read my post and realized I FUBARed the same-sex parent thing, I was just all excited and typing before my brain finished thinking about that one quest. I shouldn't have so things going on at once.

Modifié par SarEnyaDor, 11 janvier 2010 - 05:22 .

[Herr Uhl]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

So that merchant family that cast out their daughter unless she killed her castless son was just being extra jerky then? I usually encourage her to go to the surface and make a life for her and her son there, I like it better than when I convince her father to take her and her son back in.

She wanted to still have her son, but the son was casteless, not her. And since the son was casteless and had no daughters with women of a higher caste, he would have to live in Dusttown (according to custom). If the child would have been a daughter, there would not have been any problem, though I guess that merchant caste has problems affording concubines in the same way nobles do.

[Jester8183]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

So that merchant family that cast out their daughter unless she killed her castless son was just being extra jerky then? I usually encourage her to go to the surface and make a life for her and her son there, I like it better than when I convince her father to take her and her son back in.

Yes, I see what you mean.  I realized, after I thought about it, my theory doesn't tak the other castes noble hunters into account.  So, perhaps it is just a loophole for deciding caste that the casteless are able to take advantage of.

And with the Zerlinda's plight she would have been able to continue in her caste with her family if she abandoned the child.  Since she chose to keep the child her father stripped clan and caste from her; something I believe the head of a house is able to do if you have done something to embarrass or shame your family.  Which keeping a casteless whelp would be considered shameful.

Though now I wonder how it works if the child and Zerlinda come home.  Does her child still get branded and what happens to the family for keep a casteless in their home?

Edit: And on a trival note - I thought that Zerlinda was Miner caste?

Modifié par Jester8183, 11 janvier 2010 - 05:35 .

[SusanStoHelit]

She is - artisan class. If they're branded at birth, the son is already tattooed and casteless.

[Jester8183]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

She is - artisan class. If they're branded at birth, the son is already tattooed and casteless.

Which begs the question: What happens with her child now that they are accepted back into her family home?  Would it be something accepted like when the raise up a Noble Hunter?  They wouldn't be able to petition the Shaper to give him the mother's caste, could they?

[Herr Uhl]

Jester8183 wrote...
Which begs the question: What happens with her child now that they are accepted back into her family home?  Would it be something accepted like when the raise up a Noble Hunter?  They wouldn't be able to petition the Shaper to give him the mother's caste, could they?

The child would probably remain casteless and the family would be disgraced, leading to fewer people buying their services.

I don't know if it is criminal to take a casteless into your home though.

[SusanStoHelit]

I shouldn't think so. I suspect he'll be ignored, just another invisible casteless living in a higher caste household. But Zerlinda does say she'll send him to me when he's grown, because that's what happens 'in the tales' or something like that. So at least one poor casteless kid has an out.

No mention of it in the epilogue that I can recall though - though I've only finished once so far.

Edit: darn quick posters getting in before me; this is aimed at Jester, hehe.

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 11 janvier 2010 - 06:48 .

[Jester8183]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

I shouldn't think so. I suspect he'll be ignored, just another invisible casteless living in a higher caste household. But Zerlinda does say she'll send him to me when he's grown, because that's what happens 'in the tales' or something like that. So at least one poor casteless kid has an out.

No mention of it in the epilogue that I can recall though - though I've only finished once so far.

Edit: darn quick posters getting in before me; this is aimed at Jester, hehe.

(Bold added)

Which is why I quote what I'm responding to. It can take me upward of 10 minutes to come up with a response.

[Jester8183]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The child would probably remain casteless and the family would be disgraced, leading to fewer people buying their services.

I don't know if it is criminal to take a casteless into your home though.

I shouldn't think so. I suspect he'll be ignored, just another
invisible casteless living in a higher caste household. But Zerlinda
does say she'll send him to me when he's grown, because that's what
happens 'in the tales' or something like that. So at least one poor
casteless kid has an out.

No mention of it in the epilogue that I can recall though - though I've only finished once so far.

Yeah, probably right.  Though it maybe they have a family connection on the surface they would be able to send him to if the grow-up-to-be-a-gray-warden thing doesn't sound like such a good plan in retrospect.  Some merchant (and I sure artisans also) keep ties with their surface cousins to move product.

[Gerrawn]

Now I've got an image of a dwarf running on the roofs of Dust Town with a branding iron. Searching and branding any newborn he can find.

[Elessara]

I would be surprised if there was mention of Zerlinda's son in the epilogue. I don't think the epilogue looks that far into the future. I mean, she said when the kid grew up/was old enough ... so at the earliest, teenager?

[SusanStoHelit]

Elessara wrote...

I would be surprised if there was mention of Zerlinda's son in the epilogue. I don't think the epilogue looks that far into the future. I mean, she said when the kid grew up/was old enough ... so at the earliest, teenager?

Hehe, I know, I just meant that it wasn't mentioned and was left open. It's left up to us to imagine what might happen in the end.

[Jester8183]

Gerrawn wrote...

Now I've got an image of a dwarf running on the roofs of Dust Town with a branding iron. Searching and branding any newborn he can find.

New Casteless Mother (NCM):  "Wait... do you hear that?
New Casteless Father (NCF): "Oh no its-" *Crash*
Mysterious Stranger enters through window with a hot branding iron, a mask and a cape
Mysterious Stranger: "That's right its Brandman!  Making sure all casteless children are easily recognizable for the rest of their lives! Nyahaha!"

Now the question is: Who is Brandman?

[SusanStoHelit]

Jester8183 wrote...
Now the question is: Who is Brandman?

And why is he carrying a brand instead of a tattooing needle and some dye pots?

[Herr Uhl]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Jester8183 wrote...
Now the question is: Who is Brandman?

And why is he carrying a brand instead of a tattooing needle and some dye pots?

He needs to do it fast. In and then out into the permanight.