491 réponses à ce sujet

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

So I just read this article on gamespot and considering that the Dragon Age series has an all female writing staff and appeals mostly to females and male feminists I was just wondering what your thoughts on this were and what you think of the role of women in the Dragon Age series?

Is this really what women (and male feminists) like to believe? That the male power base is so afraid of strong women that they must reinforce the status quo by depicting females in video games as either sex objects or relegating them to "second-tier roles"?

[Wulfram]

I don't believe Mr Gaider is a woman

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Wulfram wrote...

I don't believe Mr Gaider is a woman

Seriously? Guess I was confused by the fact he wrote Alistair who was obviously there to fill the role of the cute, goofy romancable guy you see in all those romantic comedies the ladies like.

Modifié par Gandalf-the-Fabulous, 23 février 2013 - 12:50 .

[Iansectcrusher]

Second Tier roles? Some of the most important and strongest characters in the game are female. Your warden can be, your Hawke can be. Morrigan, Flemeth, Isabella and Aveline. All of them are in positions of power. They all drive the story forward and show they're human with ambitions. None of them are shoved into the corner and forgotten about as "Second Tier roles"

As for sexuality, the male gender is just as bad. I match Dragon Age II's Isabella with Origin's Zevran.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

And yet we see revisions being made to a character like Lara Croft after many years of being portrayed as only a sex object for male audiences. I think there is a difference between sex appeal and sex object.

When you look at a character like Isabela, it's very clear why she is in the game, and that is to attract the male audience. Versus Morrigan, who has sex appeal but is clearly not designed to be a sex object.

I don't think the issue of women in games is as black and white as some people would like to believe.

[Nerdage]

Wulfram wrote...

I don't believe Mr Gaider is a woman

Nor Mr Kristjanson, I suspect, though I've never seen a picture so I couldn't say for certain.

[Plaintiff]

Your attitude and ridiculous strawman argument make it clear that you're only posting this to be reactionary. Have you even read the article you want us to discuss? Because I have, and at no point does the author state that male developers are afraid of "strong women".

The fact that the developers of an Aliens game didn't think to include women from the word go is very concerning. The protagonist of the movie franchise is female, and there are several other prominent female characters in it. It's inconceivable that the developers would just "forget" that women exist in the Aliens universe, if they were truly fans of the franchise. I do not think it's wrong to say that this incident is indicative of a wider problem in videogame culture.

This is not just an issue that affects women. Sexual and ethnic minorities are also terribly underrrepresented in videogames and media generally.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 23 février 2013 - 01:14 .

[Robhuzz]

Iansectcrusher wrote...

Second Tier roles? Some of the most important and strongest characters in the game are female. Your warden can be, your Hawke can be. Morrigan, Flemeth, Isabella and Aveline. All of them are in positions of power. They all drive the story forward and show they're human with ambitions. None of them are shoved into the corner and forgotten about as "Second Tier roles"

As for sexuality, the male gender is just as bad. I match Dragon Age II's Isabella with Origin's Zevran.

Not to mention DA2. The only male character with any sort of power is the Viscount, and he's overshadowed by Meredith - a woman if you recall. Flemeth, the captain of the guard, the Divine, the Grand Cleric, the one demanding the story to be told - Cassandra - all women. The first enchanter - though male and technically in charge of the Circle - has no power at all either, just like the Viscount, who is technically in charge of Kirkwall. 

Whether it was done on purpose I do not know but it is obvious there are no males with power in DA2. All power is held by women.

ETA: This is no rant or anything btw. Just an observation.

Modifié par Robhuzz, 23 février 2013 - 01:16 .

[Nerdage]

Plaintiff wrote...

Your attitude and ridiculous strawman argument make it clear that you're only posting this to be reactionary. Have you even read the article you want us to discuss? Because I have, and at no point does the author state that male developers are afraid of "strong women".

Just above the Tomb Raider picture.

Ryan Creighton, a designer on Spellirium, confessed that his game is dominated by white male characters "for fear of someone calling me out for my non-white or non-male character being stereotypical, offensive, or - at the absolute worst - outright racist or sexist."

Edit: copy&pasting from that site's a bit funky..

Modifié par nerdage, 23 février 2013 - 01:22 .

[Plaintiff]

Iansectcrusher wrote...

Second Tier roles? Some of the most important and strongest characters in the game are female.

And if you read the article, you will note that the author is not criticizing Dragon Age. Bioware and its products are not even mentioned.

[Danny Boy 7]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I don't believe Mr Gaider is a woman

Seriously? Guess I was confused by the fact he wrote Alistair who was obviously there to fill the role of the cute, goofy romancable guy you see in all those romantic comedies the ladies like.

Because men don't act that way?

[Iansectcrusher]

Plaintiff wrote...

Iansectcrusher wrote...

Second Tier roles? Some of the most important and strongest characters in the game are female.

And if you read the article, you will note that the author is not criticizing Dragon Age. Bioware and its products are not even mentioned.

Guilty. 

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

I love Dragon Age Origins and I'm not a male feminist, I'm not anything I'm just me.

[Plaintiff]

nerdage wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Your attitude and ridiculous strawman argument make it clear that you're only posting this to be reactionary. Have you even read the article you want us to discuss? Because I have, and at no point does the author state that male developers are afraid of "strong women".

Just above the Tomb Raider picture.

Ryan Creighton, a designer on Spellirium, confessed that his game is dominated by white male characters "for fear of someone calling me out for my non-white or non-male character being stereotypical, offensive, or - at the absolute worst - outright racist or sexist."

And?

Firstly, the article is not accusing Ryan Creighton of "being afraid of women", it is merely providing a quote from him. Secondly, the quote says Ryan Creighton is afraid of being labelled a bigot, which is not the same thing at all.

That said, the quote still makes Mr Creighton look like an idiot. Ignoring minority groups completely isn't going to make him look any less like a bigot, and if he's seriously worried about his minority characters coming off as stereotypes, then he needs to learn to write better, because it's not very hard to write minorities that act like real people. Contrary to popular belief, men and women are not from different planets.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 23 février 2013 - 01:26 .

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I don't believe Mr Gaider is a woman

Seriously? Guess I was confused by the fact he wrote Alistair who was obviously there to fill the role of the cute, goofy romancable guy you see in all those romantic comedies the ladies like.

Because men don't act that way?

And women dont take advantage of their sexuality?

But seriously it is not what i would expect of a hardened warrior and a templar trained to hunt down mages without remorse, it would seem Alistair was writen more with his romancable qualities as a female's love interest in mind rather than as a believable warrior in his own right.

[Plaintiff]

As for the role of women in the Dragon Age series: it's perfectly fine. Isabela is not just there to be ogled and anyone who thinks she is was not paying enough attention to her character. And even if she was just eyecandy, there are plenty of other female characters, all varied in both personality and appearance. More than enough to demonstrate that the writers of Dragon Age know what they're doing.

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Plaintiff wrote...

Your attitude ridiculous strawman argument makes it clear that you're only posting this to be reactionary. Have you even read the article you want us to discuss? Because I have, and at no point does the author state that male developers are afraid of "strong women".

Read the title, "FEAR of a Warrior Women"

Plaintiff wrote...
The fact that the developers of an Aliens game didn't think to include women from the word go is very concerning. The protagonist of the movie franchise is female, and there are several other prominent female characters in it. It's inconceivable that the developers would just forget that women exist in the Aliens universe, if they were truly fans of it. I do not think it's wrong to say that this incident is indicative of a wider problem in videogame culture.

Why? Why does an aliens game that features none of the characters in the movies need to feature women? Why is this concerning? I dont see the problem here nor do I see why the game needs to contain women, sure there were females in the Aliens movies but are they really what define the Aliens franchise?

[Plaintiff]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I don't believe Mr Gaider is a woman

Seriously? Guess I was confused by the fact he wrote Alistair who was obviously there to fill the role of the cute, goofy romancable guy you see in all those romantic comedies the ladies like.

Because men don't act that way?

And women dont take advantage of their sexuality?

But seriously it is not what i would expect of a hardened warrior and a templar trained to hunt down mages without remorse, it would seem Alistair was writen more with his romancable qualities as a female's love interest in mind rather than as a believable warrior in his own right.

You would know this, I assume, from your extensive fieldwork observing the courtship behaviour of the Male Warrior, or masculum bellator.

[Plaintiff]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...
Read the title, "FEAR of a Warrior Women"

Read the article, and stop jumping to ridiculous conclusions.

Plaintiff wrote...
Why? Why does an aliens game that features none of the characters in the movies need to feature women?

Because strong women are a major recurring motif of the films? Why does a game about Indiana Jones need to involve ancient treasures? Why does a videogame about Star Wars need Jedi?

Why is this concerning?

Because it indicates that the developers either a) never understood what makes the Aliens franchise special or understood, but weren't truly committed to replicating that for a videogame.

I dont see the problem here nor do I see why the game needs to contain women, sure there were females in the Aliens movies but are they really what define the Aliens franchise?

Um... yes, they are a major aspect of it. If Ripley was a man, then there would be very little to distinguish the Aliens franchise from any other sci-fi action/horror.

Further more, it is absolutely established that female marines are common within the Aliens universe. A squad that has no females in it is an anomaly. It makes no sense within the context of the setting.

The real question is: What possible reason could there be to not have female characters in an Aliens game?

Modifié par Plaintiff, 23 février 2013 - 01:47 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

And women dont take advantage of their sexuality?

But seriously it is not what i would expect of a hardened warrior and a templar trained to hunt down mages without remorse, it would seem Alistair was writen more with his romancable qualities as a female's love interest in mind rather than as a believable warrior in his own right.

People...men and women alike...are capable of using aspects of themselves for their advantage, be it their intellect, wit, appearance, etc. It's not something evident in one gender over the other.

And a hardened warrior can't be shy or awkward when it comes to romance? Can't want a romance? Can't be given over to matters of emotion? Perhaps Alistair was written with the intention of showing that there is more than just the surface or the role of the person - that there is duty and there is heart. Being proficient in battle does not mean you can't be passionate, nor does that passion make your battle readiness any less.

Some stereotypes are sticky and their roots are deep. Seeing someone as just a singular thing, or viewing men as X and women as Y only because that is "typical" in society or media perception, is a disservice to the individual.

[TheBlackAdder13]

Despite the obviously trollish nature of the OP which I'm going to ignore, I like how this thread highlights how far ahead DA is on these issues compared to most other games.

I hadn't even thought about the fact that most of the people who hold power in DA 2 are actually women but that's a great observation!

When you look at a character like Isabela, it's very clear why she is in the game, and that is to attract the male audience. Versus Morrigan, who has sex appeal but is clearly not designed to be a sex object.

I think that's a huge disservice to Isabela's character depth. If she was designed to be a sex object, she wouldn't have a personality or character growth beyond making sexual puns and innuendos and portraying herself as promiscuous (and the devs have indicated she's not actually as promiscuous as we think, she's just sexually uh....candid). Isabela is no more a sex object than Zevran was. Just because a woman is sexually open doesn't make her a sex object.

Granted, I'd agree that the character model and art made her an unnecessarily ridiculous looking sex object, especially compared to her appearance in Origins but certainly not the writing of her character itself.

Modifié par TheBlackAdder13, 23 février 2013 - 01:50 .

[DarkKnightHolmes]

The role of the women are fine in Dragon Age.

[Sifr]

So...

Andraste was a warrior woman who lead an army. The Chantry is run by female priestesses. Women are regularly among the leaders of the Circle of Magi. Women are often leaders of military divisions in Ferelden army. The historical Aveline in revered amongst female knights? Aveline Vallen ends up as the Captain of the Guard in Kirkwall. Meredith runs Kirkwall's Templar Order...

Yeah, strong women are a total unknown in Dragon Age.

What an utterly bizarre and inane article. This is the main issue I have with militant feminism, why do people have to the need to try to pick apart something to try and find it offensive?

Considering this whole argument is based on Colonial Marines, a game that was stuck in development hell for several years, why do you think the game added women at the last minute? It did everything at the last minute!

Straws. Clutching at. Methinks?

[Danny Boy 7]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I don't believe Mr Gaider is a woman

Seriously? Guess I was confused by the fact he wrote Alistair who was obviously there to fill the role of the cute, goofy romancable guy you see in all those romantic comedies the ladies like.

Because men don't act that way?

And women dont take advantage of their sexuality?

But seriously it is not what i would expect of a hardened warrior and a templar trained to hunt down mages without remorse, it would seem Alistair was writen more with his romancable qualities as a female's love interest in mind rather than as a believable warrior in his own right.

What I was refering to was the backhanded comment you made about Mr. Gaider being a women because he wrote what you refer to as a character you see in "all those romantic comedies the ladies like". It's not unlike guys to act like this outside of romantic comedies or even movies in general. I'd say Ryan Renolds tends to be said goofy guy in his movies.

It's the idea that because someone wrote a character a certain way they are less of a man or women. It's ridiculous.

Alistair isn't hardend, in face you have to deliberately make him hardened during the course of the game. He also hasn't been in that many life or death situations by the time you meet him, on top of the fact that he's not to keen on hunting down mages to begin with.

Why can't it simply be that he's written to be a goofy buddy character? It simply falls in line with the idea that women enjoy that type of man and so he's ripe for LI status.

[Nerdage]

Plaintiff wrote...

And?

Firstly, the article is not accusing Ryan Creighton of "being afraid of women", it is merely providing a quote from him. Secondly, the quote says Ryan Creighton is afraid of being labelled a bigot, which is not the same thing at all.

That said, the quote still makes Mr Creighton look like an idiot. Ignoring minority groups completely isn't going to make him look any less like a bigot, and if he's seriously worried about his minority characters coming off as stereotypes, then he needs to learn to write better, because it's not very hard to write minorities that act like real people. Contrary to popular belief, men and women are not from different planets.

He said he's afraid of writing female characters for whatever reason, the article suggests (in the next paragraph) that this isn't an isolated problem and this fear leads to more "sex object" female characters than "human" female characters; which is broadly what the OP said.

Given the wording in the OP I'd probably agree that it is just poking for a reaction, but I don't know what you think the article is about if not developers' fear of using female characters?

Also, I don't see that this has much relevence to DA; I think if anyone sees sexism in DA's portrayal of women then they're probably trying to see it, I certainly can't see it.