491 réponses à ce sujet

[Zkyire]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Topsider wrote...
Even today, the number of women entering science/engineering/mathematics, etc, is miniscule compared to men. There just doesn't seem to be much interest.

A flawed argument that is not taking into account systemic social factors as well as factors in those specific fields, unless you want to argue that women are biologically uninterested in the sciences which would be hard to corraborate. 

Fact of the matter is that social biases still exist on what either gender is "supposed" to do. The hard sciences is still mostly seen as men's providence. For example, I have a friend who is a chemistry student in McGill university, and she told me how she consistently felt left out, ignored, and even at some points abused for being a woman in what is seen as a boy club. I know others who were talked out of entering sciences from their parents or friends. 

Truth is, the field  is not yet equal for us to rely solely on numbers. We need to know *why*, and evidence as most serious studies point out seem to show social biases and pressures as a prominent factor in this phenomenon. 

Didn't stop her from getting in.

Which was his point.

[gosimmons]

This thread's troll bait right?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Topsider wrote...
Wow, talk about sensitive, I didn't make this up. I read a depressing report recently on the amount of women choosing maths/science or any of the tech fields and they were shockingly low. But yes, let's blame it all on society.

No let's just be nuanced and realize that systemic factors are at play. They always are in any social phenomenon, especially when the discrepancy is huge and not a trivial number (which could much more easily be dismissed as purely personal choices). 

Zkyire wrote...
Didn't stop her from getting in.

Which was his point.

Didn't prevent her, but might (and does) act as a deterrent to others. In addition to affecting her performance, which was part of his argument. That men perform better in these fields hence the awards and recognitions. Well if you're consistently ignored or abused, you're not going to have the same chances as someone who is not. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 février 2013 - 07:33 .

[LobselVith8]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

I like strong women. But I am well aware of their rarity in real life. I have no problem indulging in Dragon Age's style of wish-fulfillment fantasy.

Incidentally, I think the "strength" of the women has declined coming from DA:O to DA2:

Anora > Leliana > Meredith > Wynne > Aveline > Morrigan > Tallis > Isabela > Merrill >>> Leandra

Merrill is a sign that the writers have folded and given in to more traditional male expectations of LIs. 

I don't think that's the case when Merrill is using her intellect to construct an ancient elven artifact from her own research on the lore and information she specifically extracted from the shard, how she uses blood magic proficiently for several years, the ways in which she defends her religious views about the Fade and spirits in debate with Anders, and how she is being proactive about the decline of the People while Hawke does relatively little in comparison (except beat people up).

That said, I do wish Queen Anora's ambitious goals weren't completely ignored in Dragon Age II. I'm sure her revolutionary goals of building a university in Ferelden were only the beginning of what she had planned for the kingdom, and I don't see why Anora wouldn't continue her ambitious plans (even if she is married to Alistair) since King Alistair is apparently having adventures in distant lands.

[Eleinehmm]

Topsider wrote...

Eleinehmm wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Topsider wrote...
Even today, the number of women entering science/engineering/mathematics, etc, is miniscule compared to men. There just doesn't seem to be much interest.

A flawed argument that is not taking into account systemic social factors as well as factors in those specific fields, unless you want to argue that women are biologically uninterested in the sciences which would be hard to corraborate. 

Fact of the matter is that social biases still exist on what either gender is "supposed" to do. The hard sciences is still mostly seen as men's providence. For example, I have a friend who is a chemistry student in McGill university, and she told me how she consistently felt left out, ignored, and even at some points abused for being a woman in what is seen as a boy club. I know others who were talked out of entering sciences from their parents or friends. 

Truth is, the field  is not yet equal for us to rely solely on numbers. We need to know *why*, and evidence as most serious studies point out seem to show social biases and pressures as a prominent factor in this phenomenon. 

Thanks, you have justed stoped me from "FU"ing Topsider, it would have been counterproductive, but still.

I am in a male dominated field, and there is a lot of microagressions flying around.  And no, I can't  just "let it slide , and it's not "just a joke". 

You would "FU" me for stating a fact? Men are more interested in science and mathematics. At least in the number entering those fields. That doesn't mean women aren't interested at all, just not enough for a career choice. There's a difference.

Wow, talk about sensitive, I didn't make this up. I read a depressing report recently on the amount of women choosing maths/science or any of the tech fields and they were shockingly low. But yes, let's blame it all on society.

Sensitive?  -  Sometimes I wish with the burning passion you people could taste it all, be drowning in it for years and then be dismissed as too sensitive.  White western male privilege, my butt. <_<


I am yet to meet a woman in a math, programming or engineering who said there was no sexism there, that they didn’t struggle against it. Some of the people can overcome it some can’t.  Why, do you really think that people who can’t overcome it shouldn’t be there?  It’s not a “strength of character” contest. I don’t freaking care if an AI expert is made of Iron; I care about her being a great specialist who loves her job.
Oh wait...
How about a mandatory  marathon running, if you can’t finish it in a record time, get the hell out of your Sc/Tech job.   What do you mean you can’t and it's not connected to your work perfomance ? You just aren’t dedicated and interested enough, lazy bum.

EDIT: I don't think we should continue it on game related forums.  Talks like this never end well.

Modifié par Eleinehmm, 25 février 2013 - 09:09 .

[InfinitePaths]

I never had a problem with this in Dragon Age games

[Goneaviking]

Plaintiff wrote...

Your attitude and ridiculous strawman argument make it clear that you're only posting this to be reactionary. Have you even read the article you want us to discuss? Because I have, and at no point does the author state that male developers are afraid of "strong women".

The fact that the developers of an Aliens game didn't think to include women from the word go is very concerning. The protagonist of the movie franchise is female, and there are several other prominent female characters in it. It's inconceivable that the developers would just "forget" that women exist in the Aliens universe, if they were truly fans of the franchise. I do not think it's wrong to say that this incident is indicative of a wider problem in videogame culture.

This is not just an issue that affects women. Sexual and ethnic minorities are also terribly underrrepresented in videogames and media generally.

In response to the Italicised portion of the quote.

It's worth remembering that in the original script for Alien all the characters were envisioned as male, and written with that assumption in place. When they changed their mind I've read that they made relatively few changes to incorporate the switched gender into the plan. The end result was probably the greatest female sci-fi character I've encountered.

The same has more, or less, been true for Commander Shepard. The female version shares the same dialogue and actions as her male counterpart, and has been roundly praised for the awesomeness of that development.

Seems to me there's something to be said for starting with the assumption that all characters are male (or perhaps gender irrelevant?) and then aportioning sex where appropriate when the nuts and bolts have been applied and the structure is standing firm.

[Goneaviking]

LobselVith8 wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

I like strong women. But I am well aware of their rarity in real life. I have no problem indulging in Dragon Age's style of wish-fulfillment fantasy.

Incidentally, I think the "strength" of the women has declined coming from DA:O to DA2:

Anora > Leliana > Meredith > Wynne > Aveline > Morrigan > Tallis > Isabela > Merrill >>> Leandra

Merrill is a sign that the writers have folded and given in to more traditional male expectations of LIs. 

I don't think that's the case when Merrill is using her intellect to construct an ancient elven artifact from her own research on the lore and information she specifically extracted from the shard, how she uses blood magic proficiently for several years, the ways in which she defends her religious views about the Fade and spirits in debate with Anders, and how she is being proactive about the decline of the People while Hawke does relatively little in comparison (except beat people up).

That said, I do wish Queen Anora's ambitious goals weren't completely ignored in Dragon Age II. I'm sure her revolutionary goals of building a university in Ferelden were only the beginning of what she had planned for the kingdom, and I don't see why Anora wouldn't continue her ambitious plans (even if she is married to Alistair) since King Alistair is apparently having adventures in distant lands.

On the other hand Merrill's response to the disapproval of her clan for her flouting the established social mores was to run away with the first Shem that'd tolerate her.

Followed by half a decade of moping in a slum and asking her big human protector to intercede with her motherfigure whenever she wanted something instead of dealing with her herself. The many comments about how she can't face the keeper because of the way she makes Merrill feel, the assertion that she wouldn't help her the way she did some random half-blood (of course she couldn't know that she'd literally sacrifice herself to protect Merrill in the third chapter but it was obvious to me as a player that the Keeper loved her dearly even before I got that far into the game) and her generally adolescent behaviour.

She uses arguments that even she concedes are nonsensical to rationalise her views of blood magic and demons to Anders. It isn't a religious argument at all, you may not have noticed it but literally ALL the Dalish share Anders assessment of her behaviour. She can insist all she wants that demons are just spirits, and on some level it seems to be true, but even she openly states they aren't to be trusted and that they will try to possess a mage who deals with them. As for her comment that Anders isn't one to speak because of his own possession... well that's bass ackward, Anders is easily the most qualified to speak on the subject precisely because of his own possession.

I don't recall her explaining how fixing an old magic mirror was intended to save her people. At best it would have reconsituted an ancient magic item she didn't even properly understand. While pursuing her own private obsession she neglected her duties, abandoned her family and did literally nothing to help them unless she expected to receive something in return.

Personally I like Merrill, she's my favourite romanceable character in the game truth told. But she's also one of the weakest characters in the game, she behaves like a child coddled too long.

[imbs]

Eleinehmm wrote...

Topsider wrote...

Eleinehmm wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Topsider wrote...
Even today, the number of women entering science/engineering/mathematics, etc, is miniscule compared to men. There just doesn't seem to be much interest.

A flawed argument that is not taking into account systemic social factors as well as factors in those specific fields, unless you want to argue that women are biologically uninterested in the sciences which would be hard to corraborate. 

Fact of the matter is that social biases still exist on what either gender is "supposed" to do. The hard sciences is still mostly seen as men's providence. For example, I have a friend who is a chemistry student in McGill university, and she told me how she consistently felt left out, ignored, and even at some points abused for being a woman in what is seen as a boy club. I know others who were talked out of entering sciences from their parents or friends. 

Truth is, the field  is not yet equal for us to rely solely on numbers. We need to know *why*, and evidence as most serious studies point out seem to show social biases and pressures as a prominent factor in this phenomenon. 

Thanks, you have justed stoped me from "FU"ing Topsider, it would have been counterproductive, but still.

I am in a male dominated field, and there is a lot of microagressions flying around.  And no, I can't  just "let it slide , and it's not "just a joke". 

You would "FU" me for stating a fact? Men are more interested in science and mathematics. At least in the number entering those fields. That doesn't mean women aren't interested at all, just not enough for a career choice. There's a difference.

Wow, talk about sensitive, I didn't make this up. I read a depressing report recently on the amount of women choosing maths/science or any of the tech fields and they were shockingly low. But yes, let's blame it all on society.

Sensitive?  -  Sometimes I wish with the burning passion you people could taste it all, be drowning in it for years and then be dismissed as too sensitive.  White western male privilege, my butt. <_<


I am yet to meet a woman in a math, programming or engineering who said there was no sexism there, that they didn’t struggle against it. Some of the people can overcome it some can’t.  Why, do you really think that people who can’t overcome it shouldn’t be there?  It’s not a “strength of character” contest. I don’t freaking care if an AI expert is made of Iron; I care about her being a great specialist who loves her job.
Oh wait...
How about a mandatory  marathon running, if you can’t finish it in a record time, get the hell out of your Sc/Tech job.   What do you mean you can’t and it's not connected to your work perfomance ? You just aren’t dedicated and interested enough, lazy bum.

EDIT: I don't think we should continue it on game related forums.  Talks like this never end well.

True enough. One of the problems is that it is such a subtle problem. I did math at university and I'd say it was 80%+ male. It was almost as if people there see girls as a distraction rather than as peers. I wouldn't even know where to start in order to fix problems there.

[andrew252]

seems to be one of the major thing devs are trying this day of age is try to "break" the mold of how women and men are in video games,to be quite honest its kindof the new flavor of the week in my opinion.but to be fair too each there own i guess

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Emzamination wrote...

Yep. He made a sexist thread that got locked & deleted asking bioware to throw female gamers a bone about a month ago. Dude has some issues with women he needs to work out.

Wow I just cant win can I? I create a thread suggesting Bioware put a female on the cover of DA3 in support of their female audience and this is the thanks I get? If you honestly see sexism everywhere you look then it is obvious that you are the one with issues, not I.

You're welcome btw.

Modifié par Gandalf-the-Fabulous, 26 février 2013 - 08:03 .

[Darth Death]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Yep. He made a sexist thread that got locked & deleted asking bioware to throw female gamers a bone about a month ago. Dude has some issues with women he needs to work out.

Wow I just cant win can I? I create a thread suggesting Bioware put a female on the cover of DA3 in support of their female audience and this is the thanks I get? If you honestly see sexism everywhere you look then it is obvious that you are the one with issues, not I.

You're welcome btw.

This is usually the result of users acting as if they got other users figured out. They judge people on mere pretense to exalt themselves in their own eyes & in the eyes of others. It promotes grouping, segregating users from a proper discussion. At any rate, if people have a problem with the topic, then they're free to exclude their input; judging others you don't even know only leads to derailment.    

[Elhanan]

Personally, I believe Bioware has done a great job of making female presentations as varied as their male characters. And have done so well in some cases that I am more willing to play the game in the other boots and shoes (eg; DA, ME series).

[FieryDove]

Goneaviking wrote...

I don't recall her explaining how fixing an old magic mirror was intended to save her people. At best it would have reconsituted an ancient magic item she didn't even properly understand. While pursuing her own private obsession she neglected her duties, abandoned her family and did literally nothing to help them unless she expected to receive something in return.

I have always wondered about this as well.

The mirror was tevinter used for communication. Sometimes they "broke" becoming filled with darkspawn taint.

If the mirror was fixed who would she talk too? Other clans that had a mirror if any? The long banished/tricked gods of her people? Ghost elves (elders) ?

Not to mention if it broke once (became tainted) it could happen again and then what?

I don't think we will ever find out. sigh

Elhanan wrote...

Personally, I believe Bioware has done a great job of making female presentations as varied as their male characters. And have done so well in some cases that I am more willing to play the game in the other boots and shoes (eg; DA, ME series).

I agree with this!

Modifié par FieryDove, 26 février 2013 - 04:27 .

[Dutchess]

FieryDove wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

I don't recall her explaining how fixing an old magic mirror was intended to save her people. At best it would have reconsituted an ancient magic item she didn't even properly understand. While pursuing her own private obsession she neglected her duties, abandoned her family and did literally nothing to help them unless she expected to receive something in return.

I have always wondered about this as well.

The mirror was tevinter used for communication. Sometimes they "broke" becoming filled with darkspawn taint.

If the mirror was fixed who would she talk too? Other clans that had a mirror if any? The long banished/tricked gods of her people? Ghost elves (elders) ?

Not to mention if it broke once (became tainted) it could happen again and then what?

I don't think we will ever find out. sigh

It might be another thing the demon simply tricked her into believing. But that's just as good a guess as any.

[Emzamination]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Yep. He made a sexist thread that got locked & deleted asking bioware to throw female gamers a bone about a month ago. Dude has some issues with women he needs to work out.

Wow I just cant win can I? I create a thread suggesting Bioware put a female on the cover of DA3 in support of their female audience and this is the thanks I get? If you honestly see sexism everywhere you look then it is obvious that you are the one with issues, not I.

You're welcome btw.

And you didn't at all go on a tangent highlighting the inferiorities of women as the reason you believe they haven't been portrayed enough in gaming media, hence that whole lock & delete, right?

Darth Death wrote...
This is usually the result of users acting as if they got other users figured out. They judge people on mere pretense to exalt themselves in their own eyes & in the eyes of others. It promotes grouping, segregating users from a proper discussion. At any rate, if people have a problem with the topic, then they're free to exclude their input; judging others you don't even know only leads to derailment.    

That's nice, but your statement is assuming said users have had no prior engagements, with which to build a  repertoire to pass judgement. Trolls gonna troll? Futhermore If you'd like to think this topic accusing the writers of catering only to female and female supporters no wait-- male feminist as the op stresses, on the grounds that the group is made up mostly of females, derived from a article unrelated not only to the dragon age series, but bioware as a whole is proper discussion lol, that's your prerogative. I was simply replying to a quote. I'm certainly not wasting energy attempting to deter anyone from it. to each their own, I care not.

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Emzamination wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Yep. He made a sexist thread that got locked & deleted asking bioware to throw female gamers a bone about a month ago. Dude has some issues with women he needs to work out.

Wow I just cant win can I? I create a thread suggesting Bioware put a female on the cover of DA3 in support of their female audience and this is the thanks I get? If you honestly see sexism everywhere you look then it is obvious that you are the one with issues, not I.

You're welcome btw.

And you didn't at all go on a tangent highlighting the inferiorities of women as the reason you believe they haven't been portrayed enough in gaming media, hence that whole lock & delete, right?

Nope, and I believe that the thread was locked because of posts made by judgemental people like yourself.

But that being said the thread was never deleted so feel free to go back and highlight for us all the posts where I "go on a tangent highlighting the inferiorities of women".

[Emzamination]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Nope, and I believe that the thread was locked because of posts made by judgemental people like yourself.

But that being said the thread was never deleted so feel free to go back and highlight for us all the posts where I "go on a tangent highlighting the inferiorities of women".

Please, give me a bit more credit than that. Don't think I didn't attempt to bring it up as a supporting argument to my statement in the first post, but thing is-- it seems to be absent or possibly on vacation from the archives & cache. Now what could that possibly mean? No don't tell me, I already have my answer.

but anyways let us digress with this lest administration start prodding us due to and I shudder to speak the word regarding this topic -- Derailment. /Exit left

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Emzamination wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Nope, and I believe that the thread was locked because of posts made by judgemental people like yourself.

But that being said the thread was never deleted so feel free to go back and highlight for us all the posts where I "go on a tangent highlighting the inferiorities of women".

Please, give me a bit more credit than that. Don't think I didn't attempt to bring it up as a supporting argument to my statement in the first post, but thing is-- it seems to be absent or possibly on vacation from the archives & cache. Now what could that possibly mean?

That you either werent looking hard enough or were actively trying to subvert the truth? Sorry Em but no credit for you!

But you are right and we shouldnt derail such an important topic like this, if you are done with the false accusations of sexism and misogyny can we please get back to the topic at hand?

[esper]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Nope, and I believe that the thread was locked because of posts made by judgemental people like yourself.

But that being said the thread was never deleted so feel free to go back and highlight for us all the posts where I "go on a tangent highlighting the inferiorities of women".

Please, give me a bit more credit than that. Don't think I didn't attempt to bring it up as a supporting argument to my statement in the first post, but thing is-- it seems to be absent or possibly on vacation from the archives & cache. Now what could that possibly mean?

That you either werent looking hard enough or were actively trying to subvert the truth? Sorry Em but no credit for you!

But you are right and we shouldnt derail such an important topic like this, if you are done with the false accusations of sexism and misogyny can we please get back to the topic at hand?

(Reads the OP in the link).You just proved Emzamination's original point. That opening was sexist and if you can't see that then you have a serious problem,

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

esper wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Nope, and I believe that the thread was locked because of posts made by judgemental people like yourself.

But that being said the thread was never deleted so feel free to go back and highlight for us all the posts where I "go on a tangent highlighting the inferiorities of women".

Please, give me a bit more credit than that. Don't think I didn't attempt to bring it up as a supporting argument to my statement in the first post, but thing is-- it seems to be absent or possibly on vacation from the archives & cache. Now what could that possibly mean?

That you either werent looking hard enough or were actively trying to subvert the truth? Sorry Em but no credit for you!

But you are right and we shouldnt derail such an important topic like this, if you are done with the false accusations of sexism and misogyny can we please get back to the topic at hand?

(Reads the OP in the link).You just proved Emzamination's original point. That opening was sexist and if you can't see that then you have a serious problem,

Ok since I am such a neanderthal please enlighten me on what is so "sexist" about that opening OP, sure you arent looking for sexism where it doesnt exist?

[Sutekh]

 ^ Since you ask, here's your reasoning in the linked OP first paragraph:

- DA seems to be aimed at females (you don't say why) 
- The Witcher is aimed at males (you don't say why either)
- The Witcher >>> DA (again, "why" remains a mystery for the ages)

Reading this, it's easy to understand "inferior games are aimed at females".

Now, I'm not sure that was your meaning, or that that train of logic was yours but:

You've been very borderline in this very thread (the one we're writing in now), by equating adult women to 11-years old (Winx, Barbie), and demanding an effective separation of men and women as far as games go. You've been othering us all over the place, as though we're a different species who not only don't think like you males, but prefer what you consider sub-par products. You've been basically saying "women are the cause of games quality being lower, so go back to your gaming gynaeceum and let us males amongst ourselves".

You've also been generalizing and assuming a lot of unfounded things (all women like the same things, preferably pink, girly and romancey), mentioned "male feminists" as though they were some kind of traitors, assumed the DA writing team is all-female (because no male can write this kind of things, right?) and went as far as asking us to "grow some balls", as though to do anything right, we'd need to act like men . In short, it's textbook sexism. If it was a bingo card, you'd be a winner.

Added to that, you've been blatantly ignoring any logical or factual argument that didn't go your way, and be stirring trouble where there isn't, since, as almost everybody said, there isn't a problem with women portraying in DA. And now you come here, play the victim and look all surprised.

Sorry to be so antagonistic, but there's no nice way to put it (and trust me, I've been trying).

((And leave Neanderthal out of it, poor chap ))

(((edited for bad SP&G)))

Modifié par Sutekh, 27 février 2013 - 09:07 .

[Goneaviking]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

esper wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Nope, and I believe that the thread was locked because of posts made by judgemental people like yourself.

But that being said the thread was never deleted so feel free to go back and highlight for us all the posts where I "go on a tangent highlighting the inferiorities of women".

Please, give me a bit more credit than that. Don't think I didn't attempt to bring it up as a supporting argument to my statement in the first post, but thing is-- it seems to be absent or possibly on vacation from the archives & cache. Now what could that possibly mean?

That you either werent looking hard enough or were actively trying to subvert the truth? Sorry Em but no credit for you!

But you are right and we shouldnt derail such an important topic like this, if you are done with the false accusations of sexism and misogyny can we please get back to the topic at hand?

(Reads the OP in the link).You just proved Emzamination's original point. That opening was sexist and if you can't see that then you have a serious problem,

Ok since I am such a neanderthal please enlighten me on what is so "sexist" about that opening OP, sure you arent looking for sexism where it doesnt exist?

The patronising tone mostly.

Also the part where you suggest that the franchise was written primarily for women (unlike the superior witcher series) because women's interests and tastes are so very different to men's.

Then there's the part where your OP in that thread treated women like a charity case and you were doing them a special favour. But maybe that one's a part of the patronising tone?

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Sutekh wrote...

 ^ Since you ask, here's your reasoning in the linked OP first paragraph:

- DA seems to be aimed at females (you don't say why) 
- The Witcher is aimed at males (you don't say why either)
- The Witcher >>> DA (again, "why" remains a mystery for the ages)

Reading this, it's easy to understand "inferior games are aimed at females".

Is that what you read out of that? That was not my meaning at all and I dont exactly see how you managed to read that into my words, the quality of a game is irrelevent when it comes to the preferences of different genders, Dragon Age isnt inferior because it is aimed at women, nor is the Witcher 2 superior for being aimed at men.

I could list the reasons why the Witcher 2 is superior to the Dragon Age series but that would fill a few paragraphs and ultimately isnt what this thread is about, best leave it for a different thread.

Sutekh wrote...
You've been very borderline in this very thread (the one we're writing in now), by equating adult women to 11-years old (Winx, Barbie)

Well considering how mature you have all been by trying to start a flame war by taking sentences out of context and throwing around false accusations of sexism I guess you can see how I might have been confused about your age.

Sutekh wrote...
and demanding an effective separation of men and women as far as games go.

I never demanded that, I never said anything about excluding women from video games, what I said is if an artist chooses not to include women in his vision then he shouldnt be forced to under accusations of sexism and misogyny, it would be the same if an artist chooses not to include men in their vision as well. Again you are trying to find sexism where it doesnt exist.

Sutekh wrote...
who not only don't think like you males, but prefer what you consider sub-par products. You've been basically saying "women are the cause of games quality being lower, so go back to your gaming gynaeceum and let us males amongst ourselves".

But as a generalisation men and women do think differently, this doesnt mean that women thought patterns are inferior (though I am somewhat concerned by your tendancies to find seek out sexism where it doesnt exist, is this a common trait among women or just the women of the Bio forums?) or that some women dont have a tendancy to think more like men (and the reverse). There is nothing sexist in acknowledging our differences.

Also I never claimed women are the cause of gamings downfall, again you are putting words in my mouth. 

Sutekh wrote...
You've also been generalizing and assuming a lot of unfounded things (all women like the same things, preferably pink, girly and romancey), mentioned "male feminists" as though they were some kind of traitors, assumed the DA writing team is all-female (because no male can write this kind of things, right?) and went as far as asking us to "grow some balls", as though to do anything right, we'd need to act like men . In short, it's textbook sexism. If it was a bingo card, you'd be a winner.

Ok I will admit that "Like a Man!" comment was poking fun but I do think the problem isnt so much sexism in the industry but rather the lack of women in the industry, I do think if women want this to change then more women need to step up to the plate and show everyone that women are interested in gaming and that games aimed at women can be successful, nobody is trying to stop you from doing so. As for me assuming that all women like the same things that simply isnt the case and I challenge you to find a quote where I explicitly say it, you assumed I assumed, I dont recall ever using the words pink, girly or romancey in this thread. As for the female writing staff I do believe that it has already been confirmed that most of the writers for Dragon Age are female so I am not sure what your problem is here.

Sutekh wrote...Added to that, you've been blatantly ignoring any logical or factual argument that didn't go your way,

Like?

Goneaviking wrote...

The patronising tone mostly.

Also the part where you suggest that the franchise was written primarily for women (unlike the superior witcher series) because women's interests and tastes are so very different to men's.

Then there's the part where your OP in that thread treated women like a charity case and you were doing them a special favour. But maybe that one's a part of the patronising tone?

Well I dont know if it was written primarily for women but I do know that the writing staff is mostly female and it is only natural that the preferences of the writer will colour the content that is created. At the time of writing the thread I diddnt know that the writing team was mostly female but considering I was able to pick up on it I guess it must have had some effect on the game?

As for the patronising tone I think you are reading too much into things, all I did was suggest it would be neat if Bioware put a female lead on the cover in recognition of their female fanbase, do you not like this idea?

Modifié par Gandalf-the-Fabulous, 27 février 2013 - 10:36 .

[AllThatJazz]

Sutekh wrote...

 ^ Since you ask, here's your reasoning in the linked OP first paragraph:

- DA seems to be aimed at females (you don't say why) 
- The Witcher is aimed at males (you don't say why either)
- The Witcher >>> DA (again, "why" remains a mystery for the ages)

Reading this, it's easy to understand "inferior games are aimed at females".

Now, I'm not sure that was your meaning, or that that train of logic was yours but:

You've been very borderline in this very thread (the one we're writing in now), by equating adult women to 11-years old (Winx, Barbie), and demanding an effective separation of men and women as far as games go. You've been othering us all over the place, as though we're a different species who not only don't think like you males, but prefer what you consider sub-par products. You've been basically saying "women are the cause of games quality being lower, so go back to your gaming gynaeceum and let us males amongst ourselves".

You've also been generalizing and assuming a lot of unfounded things (all women like the same things, preferably pink, girly and romancey), mentioned "male feminists" as though they were some kind of traitors, assumed the DA writing team is all-female (because no male can write this kind of things, right?) and went as far as asking us to "grow some balls", as though to do anything right, we'd need to act like men . In short, it's textbook sexism. If it was a bingo card, you'd be a winner.

Added to that, you've been blatantly ignoring any logical or factual argument that didn't go your way, and be stirring trouble where there isn't, since, as almost everybody said, there isn't a problem with women portraying in DA. And now you come here, play the victim and look all surprised.

Sorry to be so antagonistic, but there's no nice way to put it (and trust me, I've been trying).

((And leave Neanderthal out of it, poor chap ))

(((edited for bad SP&G)))

This. Super post.

Gandalf, you certainly aren't doing anything to encourage the perception that you aren't taking a sexist stance in both this and the other thread. Your posts are chock full of the same sort of generalisations that you highlighted in Dreamfall (Women like pink! Women like romcoms! Women like Alistair!) and implications of female inferiority (The Witcher is best, and aimed at men! Dragon Age isn't as good and is aimed at wimmins!) - and then you seem all surprised and offended when you get a reaction. 

It's pretty clear that you are either acting deliberately in order to get this reaction  - in which case congratulations! 13 pages would indicate that you have succeeded; or you genuinely don't see that the way you communicate your thoughts and opinions is often patronising and occasionally offensive. In which case, there are a) people here who are perfectly happy to point out the shortcomings in your communication skills (see above) and lots of courses in writing skills available  that can improve your ability to engage in pleasant and positive discourse.