491 réponses à ce sujet

[w0lfam0da1s]

AllThatJazz wrote...

Sutekh wrote...

 ^ Since you ask, here's your reasoning in the linked OP first paragraph:

- DA seems to be aimed at females (you don't say why) 
- The Witcher is aimed at males (you don't say why either)
- The Witcher >>> DA (again, "why" remains a mystery for the ages)

Reading this, it's easy to understand "inferior games are aimed at females".

Now, I'm not sure that was your meaning, or that that train of logic was yours but:

You've been very borderline in this very thread (the one we're writing in now), by equating adult women to 11-years old (Winx, Barbie), and demanding an effective separation of men and women as far as games go. You've been othering us all over the place, as though we're a different species who not only don't think like you males, but prefer what you consider sub-par products. You've been basically saying "women are the cause of games quality being lower, so go back to your gaming gynaeceum and let us males amongst ourselves".

You've also been generalizing and assuming a lot of unfounded things (all women like the same things, preferably pink, girly and romancey), mentioned "male feminists" as though they were some kind of traitors, assumed the DA writing team is all-female (because no male can write this kind of things, right?) and went as far as asking us to "grow some balls", as though to do anything right, we'd need to act like men . In short, it's textbook sexism. If it was a bingo card, you'd be a winner.

Added to that, you've been blatantly ignoring any logical or factual argument that didn't go your way, and be stirring trouble where there isn't, since, as almost everybody said, there isn't a problem with women portraying in DA. And now you come here, play the victim and look all surprised.

Sorry to be so antagonistic, but there's no nice way to put it (and trust me, I've been trying).

((And leave Neanderthal out of it, poor chap ))

(((edited for bad SP&G)))

This. Super post.

Gandalf, you certainly aren't doing anything to encourage the perception that you aren't taking a sexist stance in both this and the other thread. Your posts are chock full of the same sort of generalisations that you highlighted in Dreamfall (Women like pink! Women like romcoms! Women like Alistair!) and implications of female inferiority (The Witcher is best, and aimed at men! Dragon Age isn't as good and is aimed at wimmins!) - and then you seem all surprised and offended when you get a reaction. 

It's pretty clear that you are either acting deliberately in order to get this reaction  - in which case congratulations! 13 pages would indicate that you have succeeded; or you genuinely don't see that the way you communicate your thoughts and opinions is often patronising and occasionally offensive. In which case, there are a) people here who are perfectly happy to point out the shortcomings in your communication skills (see above) and lots of courses in writing skills available  that can improve your ability to engage in pleasant and positive discourse.

[Emzamination]

Sutekh wrote...

 ^ Since you ask, here's your reasoning in the linked OP first paragraph:

- DA seems to be aimed at females (you don't say why) 
- The Witcher is aimed at males (you don't say why either)
- The Witcher >>> DA (again, "why" remains a mystery for the ages)

Reading this, it's easy to understand "inferior games are aimed at females".

Now, I'm not sure that was your meaning, or that that train of logic was yours but:

You've been very borderline in this very thread (the one we're writing in now), by equating adult women to 11-years old (Winx, Barbie), and demanding an effective separation of men and women as far as games go. You've been othering us all over the place, as though we're a different species who not only don't think like you males, but prefer what you consider sub-par products. You've been basically saying "women are the cause of games quality being lower, so go back to your gaming gynaeceum and let us males amongst ourselves".

You've also been generalizing and assuming a lot of unfounded things (all women like the same things, preferably pink, girly and romancey), mentioned "male feminists" as though they were some kind of traitors, assumed the DA writing team is all-female (because no male can write this kind of things, right?) and went as far as asking us to "grow some balls", as though to do anything right, we'd need to act like men . In short, it's textbook sexism. If it was a bingo card, you'd be a winner.

Added to that, you've been blatantly ignoring any logical or factual argument that didn't go your way, and be stirring trouble where there isn't, since, as almost everybody said, there isn't a problem with women portraying in DA. And now you come here, play the victim and look all surprised.

Sorry to be so antagonistic, but there's no nice way to put it (and trust me, I've been trying).

((And leave Neanderthal out of it, poor chap ))

(((edited for bad SP&G)))

I suppose this is a judgement on mere pretense as well. Well said sutekh

Modifié par Emzamination, 27 février 2013 - 06:17 .

[Zkyire]

Sutekh wrote...

Reading this, it's easy to understand "inferior games are aimed at females".

He's giving his objective opinion that the Witcher series is better than Dragon Age.

He did not say "The Witcher is better and therefore is aimed at men".

Compare the stories of both (read: play the series fully) then compare how women are treated in The Witcher series and how they're treated in Dragon Age (Dragon Age is basically medieval feminism) and you will see why he said what he said.

He isn't sexist because you misread what he said.

And to every other poster here jumping on the "Good post!" bandwagon; stop it. You, in your eagerness to brand him a sexist - misread it too.

Nobody can have any sort of a discussion when people just throw that kind of crap around at the drop of a hat. Stop.

Modifié par Zkyire, 27 février 2013 - 08:04 .

[Dave of Canada]

Zkyire wrote...

Compare the stories of both (read: play the series fully) then compare how women are treated in The Witcher series and how they're treated in Dragon Age (Dragon Age is basically medieval feminism) and you will see why he said what he said.

Do you know where you are? You forget the BSN's inane fasination with dismissing a game they've never played.

[Goneaviking]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

The patronising tone mostly.

Also the part where you suggest that the franchise was written primarily for women (unlike the superior witcher series) because women's interests and tastes are so very different to men's.

Then there's the part where your OP in that thread treated women like a charity case and you were doing them a special favour. But maybe that one's a part of the patronising tone?

Well I dont know if it was written primarily for women but I do know that the writing staff is mostly female and it is only natural that the preferences of the writer will colour the content that is created. At the time of writing the thread I diddnt know that the writing team was mostly female but considering I was able to pick up on it I guess it must have had some effect on the game?

As for the patronising tone I think you are reading too much into things, all I did was suggest it would be neat if Bioware put a female lead on the cover in recognition of their female fanbase, do you not like this idea?

The thing about being patronising is that you often don't realise you're doing it until it's pointed out to you, if you ever do.

It's a valid point that the writing team IS mostly and that does certainly colour the process, as commented on by Mr Gaider on his blog. 

The problem is the tone of writing you've adopted on this issue, and the way you've become defensive about it just compounds the problem. I doubt that you intended it to be patronising, but intent is only half the problem.

It's a bad idea to treat women, or any group or individual actually, as a charity case. People tend not to like it when someone takes it upon themselves to argue their case for them, partially because of the implication that they can't do it themselves and partially because their defenders often don't really know what they're talking about. They often miss important points, ignore major issues and focus on minor ones, and they unintentionally distort the message.

I'm indifferent to the idea of whether there's a male or female on the case of DA:I. I liked the first two instalments in the series, and what I've seen of the development suggests I may well enjoy the next one as well which is a much bigger determiner of whether I'll buy it than what's on the cover.

If it's important to women to have a female on the cover, then let them ask. I'll sign the petition, but I don't have an iron in that fire.

[Sutekh]

Zkyire wrote...

Sutekh wrote...

Reading this, it's easy to understand "inferior games are aimed at females".

He's giving his objective opinion that the Witcher series is better than Dragon Age.

He did not say "The Witcher is better and therefore is aimed at men".

Compare the stories of both (read: play the series fully) then compare how women are treated in The Witcher series and how they're treated in Dragon Age (Dragon Age is basically medieval feminism) and you will see why he said what he said.

He isn't sexist because you misread what he said.

And to every other poster here jumping on the "Good post!" bandwagon; stop it. You, in your eagerness to brand him a sexist - misread it too.

Nobody can have any sort of a discussion when people just throw that kind of crap around at the drop of a hat. Stop.

You should calm down. Even Gandalf in is reply remained civil and reasonable, while he was the specific target. Telling people to stop isn't the better way to make a point.

So.

First, I've played both series, fully (so, no, Dave, I'm not dismissing something I haven't played. In fact, I'm not dismissing anything. I haven't said squat in my post about my thoughts on The Witcher).

Second, I've explicitly said that I wasn't sure it was what he meant. I said it could be understood this way. I didn't misread, you did. The problem I have with him is in this thread, not in one in which I haven't participated. And I could point you exactly to the very problematic things Gandalf wrote here, but I suppose I'd be misreading, throwing crap, and crying sexism where there isn't, am I right?

Thinking of it, though, I do have a problem with the idea that a woman cannot deal with a story set in a misogynistic world, such as The Witcher or ASoIaF, and that we'd better stick to safe spaces where we're well represented and treated. I'm a big girl. I understand context.

It's also lovely that you consider the mere inclusion of women as "feminism".

Regardless, you're barking at the wrong tree, for the wrong reasons.

(And there's no such thing as an objective opinion about a preference, btw. Another can of worm, but still).

[Darth Death]

Zkyire wrote...

Nobody can have any sort of a discussion when people just throw that kind of crap around at the drop of a hat. Stop.

Agreed. People need to cut the op some slack. I'm sicken by the crass behavior some have exhibited while justifying their accusation of sexism.  

[Nightdragon8]

the 'role' of women... in dragon age. in general they are just women to d the cooking and cleaning. and to look pretty.

You do however have Guardwomen you have some political and the Knight Commander of the templars in DA2. So they are there and in power.

If this was what 100 years ago none of that would be here. A "women using a sword? HA" is what they would say, And they would laugh at you from the bottom of there hearts.

So the "role" of women in DA series has been IMO pretty damn good. And as for "who the game was made for" considering any SMART game devloper would want to aim for both Male AND Female, so they can incress sales more.

The problem is that, really the only way for some people to be happy is if they make a all female dominate socity and even if there are "problems" people still wont like it. Because "women are prefect and dont make mistakes. "

In all honesty, DA2 seems to be more of a "I dont care what gender you are as long as you can get the job done" sort of world because of the darkspawn doesn't seem to care wither your male or female. In fact they prefer females so they can make brood mothers.

Being a feminist shouldn't mean "being male" IMO Isabella is a prime example of a strong female. She does what she wants when she wants. And only if is in a romance with Hawk (male or female) is willing to listen to him/her/ But that is fine because they are in a relationship thats what relationships are compromise and communication.

Another would be Aveline, she is her own person, and that is even more defined though the death of her husband. Morgin was another strong personality was set in her ways and had her own ideas. Lilana is the same. the Knight commander was in charge of the templars. And dont forget Andraste with a very "Joan of Arc -isk" type.

So unless you are going to point to the "ditzy" women in the game I can give you plenty IRL examples of it.

[Oberkaiser]

 Oppression! Sl ut Shaming! Double standards! Discrimination! Sexism! Misogyny! Patriarchy! 

...am I contributing to the thread yet?

Modifié par Oberkaiser, 28 février 2013 - 08:12 .

[BroBear Berbil]

The role of women in the Dragon Age series is probably over represented if anything. As somebody pointed out, most of the powerful figures in DA2 (and their agents) were women. Also, going back to Origins it seemed like 1 in 3 fighters was a woman. The Ostagar scene had a number of women soldiers and you encounter numerous women in heavy armor equipped with all kinds of weapons.

I don't mind "women warriors" but I don't think they should be so commonplace. In general I find the women in Dragon Age to be kind of dull because they seem to be on an equal footing with men in just about every situation.

It's been awhile since I've played a DA game but the only place I can think of where this wasn't as pronounced was Orzammar. One of my most memorable games was with the character that's my avatar - a female casteless Dwarf named Muriel. I found the origin to be really fascinating and it wasn't full of empowered super women.

Rica is a noble hunter who has to use her femininity in the hope that she can advance. I wish she was fleshed out more but I understand DA:O was a game primarily about the darkspawn and Ferelden and not Dwarves.

Kalah is an addict, resents her children but doesn't want to be abandoned like she was by her husband, and is a tether of negativity on them but was one of the most sympathetic characters in Origins imo. I got her the wine she wanted and it was a pretty sad experience.

Then there was Beraht who was genuinely a pig. Unlike the other origins, when I got out of Orzammar it felt like an achievement. My female Dwarf warrior was going to make a name for herself -- and she did. She was also the only character I ever sacrificed.

As she traveled through Ferelden meeting and killing other female warriors I could kind of understand it but by the time I got to DA2 and there were women warriors, rogues, and even templars it cheapened Muriel for me just a bit.

I play both males and females in many games. Dragon Age was a setting where I felt a female fighting should have been an extraordinary thing. Men and women aren't the same. Yeah it's a fantasy setting but so is Game of Thrones and it manages to have much more interesting women who are...women. I remember in my early days of gaming a couple of games that let you play females gave the females different stats. That's almost unheard of these days. The only game I've played somewhat recently that does this is Mount & Blade (and let me tell you, conquering the land with a female is all the sweeter).

I skimmed through that article in the OP and I was irked by the bits that I read - especially the chastisement about the Aliens game. I can't stand the kind of sentiment that demands that something be added to fill some sort of quota.

I watched the PS4 conference the other day and I didn't notice that none of the presenters were women. Thankfully Kotaku was there to point it out to all of us.

tldr: DA has too many warrior women -- it cheapens the concept.

[Uccio]

I don't mind women being in power or warriors as long as they fit in the specific role. For instance Aveline was good since she was tall and srtrongly built. It was convincing to see her fight with sword and shield wearing armour. I do have problem with bikini-armoured beach babes with dat azz and swinging giant sword with their rope arms.

[SpunkyMonkey]

OnionXI wrote...

The role of women in the Dragon Age series is probably over represented if anything. As somebody pointed out, most of the powerful figures in DA2 (and their agents) were women. Also, going back to Origins it seemed like 1 in 3 fighters was a woman. The Ostagar scene had a number of women soldiers and you encounter numerous women in heavy armor equipped with all kinds of weapons.

I don't mind "women warriors" but I don't think they should be so commonplace. In general I find the women in Dragon Age to be kind of dull because they seem to be on an equal footing with men in just about every situation.

It's been awhile since I've played a DA game but the only place I can think of where this wasn't as pronounced was Orzammar. One of my most memorable games was with the character that's my avatar - a female casteless Dwarf named Muriel. I found the origin to be really fascinating and it wasn't full of empowered super women.

Rica is a noble hunter who has to use her femininity in the hope that she can advance. I wish she was fleshed out more but I understand DA:O was a game primarily about the darkspawn and Ferelden and not Dwarves.

Kalah is an addict, resents her children but doesn't want to be abandoned like she was by her husband, and is a tether of negativity on them but was one of the most sympathetic characters in Origins imo. I got her the wine she wanted and it was a pretty sad experience.

Then there was Beraht who was genuinely a pig. Unlike the other origins, when I got out of Orzammar it felt like an achievement. My female Dwarf warrior was going to make a name for herself -- and she did. She was also the only character I ever sacrificed.

As she traveled through Ferelden meeting and killing other female warriors I could kind of understand it but by the time I got to DA2 and there were women warriors, rogues, and even templars it cheapened Muriel for me just a bit.

I play both males and females in many games. Dragon Age was a setting where I felt a female fighting should have been an extraordinary thing. Men and women aren't the same. Yeah it's a fantasy setting but so is Game of Thrones and it manages to have much more interesting women who are...women. I remember in my early days of gaming a couple of games that let you play females gave the females different stats. That's almost unheard of these days. The only game I've played somewhat recently that does this is Mount & Blade (and let me tell you, conquering the land with a female is all the sweeter).

I skimmed through that article in the OP and I was irked by the bits that I read - especially the chastisement about the Aliens game. I can't stand the kind of sentiment that demands that something be added to fill some sort of quota.

I watched the PS4 conference the other day and I didn't notice that none of the presenters were women. Thankfully Kotaku was there to point it out to all of us.

tldr: DA has too many warrior women -- it cheapens the concept.

I agree.

Sorry, but I have to be honest and say I thought many times throughout both DA games "crikey, another woman warrior?"

It didn't bother me, and the above statement may sound sexist to some, but it just felt a bit out of place. I've lived on this planet for over 30 years now and in that time I've seen a lot of fights and met a sizeable amount of forces & emergency service staff, and only a very small percentage of them were women - so it just seemed a bit of a weird ratio in the DA games.

That's not to say there can't be more women warriors in a fantsasy world. In fact I think it can be a very refreshing turn of tact, especially when said warrior is well placed (such as TWI2's Saskia). But I also don't think there's anything wrong with people recognising the outright fact that, in general, women are weaker physically than men, and it goes against what people know from real life that they would represent (or even want to represent) a large warrior contingent.

Fantasy games can ignore reality and up the percentage, it's just that by doing that it's bound  to sit oddly with some people the more they up that percentage. For every Boudicca or Joan of Arc there's 10-15 Alexanders, Spartacus', Leonidas', Hannibals etc. so you can understand why some would apply that ratio template to games inspired by such eras and cultures.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 28 février 2013 - 09:56 .

[9TailsFox]

Moderator deleted my link.

Modifié par 9TailsFox, 28 février 2013 - 10:36 .

[AllThatJazz]

Zkyire wrote...

Sutekh wrote...

Reading this, it's easy to understand "inferior games are aimed at females".

He's giving his objective opinion that the Witcher series is better than Dragon Age.

He did not say "The Witcher is better and therefore is aimed at men".

Compare the stories of both (read: play the series fully) then compare how women are treated in The Witcher series and how they're treated in Dragon Age (Dragon Age is basically medieval feminism) and you will see why he said what he said.

He isn't sexist because you misread what he said.

And to every other poster here jumping on the "Good post!" bandwagon; stop it. You, in your eagerness to brand him a sexist - misread it too.

Nobody can have any sort of a discussion when people just throw that kind of crap around at the drop of a hat. Stop.

I have played The Witcher games, both of them, several times. I've also read the books. I would, admittedly, like to see one female character in the games who isn't a) sexually manipulative being sexually manipulated c) just wanting to be 'ploughed' by Geralt in general or d) old and unshaggeable therefore none of the aforementioned apply, but that is for another thread. Or not, because I largely liked TW and think it contains some rather interesting female characters actually (though two of my personal favourites haven't appeared in the games yet, and my other fave, Shani, was written out). So why is TW aimed at men and not at me? Because of a male protagonist? Well, Planescape: Torment is my favourite game ever, so it can't be that. The shocking and horrifying presence of bare boobs? Well, I have those, they're marvellous, so nope. Violence and swearing? I would hardly be playing video games as a hobby at all if that was something I found a big deal. Does Gandalf explain why it is so, in his opinion?

Gandalf made the following opening statement in his other thread:

'Not trying to be sexist just curious but for some reason the whole Dragon Age series seems like it is written to appeal more to the female audience, anyone else get this impression? Not having a go at anyone I just find it 'unique', to be fair it would seem most games these days are writen to appeal more to males, I mean we got the far superior Witcher series so I guess it is about time women got a series of games made to appeal more to them, all the more power to ya girlfriend

So he never even tried to explain what he meant by any of his thoughts. He just left his entire statement in a vacuum, and what? You (and he and others) are surprised that it can easily be inferred in a negative light? You're astonished that the phrase 'all the more power to ya girlfriend' can be seen as just a trifle condescending when coming from a guy who has also just stated 'we (ie men) got the far superior Witcher series', meaning that you ie wimmin got the far inferior Dragon Age series? Inference follows: So, you know, you lucky ladies go for it (more power to ya!) with your rubbish game, and we'll stick with the good stuff!!!!1111!111 And  without even attempting to explain why any of that opinion is actually accurate? In any way at all, let alone a way that doesn't insult the intelligence of fans of this supposedly far inferior series?  If that honestly goes over your head, then I find that surprising. I read very well, but I'm not entirely sure your comprehension is up to scratch. Or maybe, the fact you and I can infer wildly different intent from the same statement, simply means that Mr Fabulous needs to learn to clarify and communicate his ideas better.

Also, Dragon Age isn't 'Medieval Feminism'. It, like TW, is a Medieval-inspired fantasy video game.   Bioware has, since the days of Baldur's Gate 2, attempted to give strong, but not necessarily historically accurate, characterisation to the majority of its characters, regardless of gender. I find it quite depressing that people in this thread persist in seeing such a thing as 'feminism' or 'tokenism' rather than as a completely normal attempt to write good characters.

Edit: When referring to opinion, there is no such thing as objectivity. Opinions are only ever subjective.

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 28 février 2013 - 10:40 .

[SpunkyMonkey]

AllThatJazz wrote...

I have played The Witcher games, both of them, several times. I've also read the books. I would, admittedly, like to see one female character in the games who isn't a) sexually manipulative being sexually manipulated c) just wanting to be 'ploughed' by Geralt in general or d) old and unshaggeable therefore none of the aforementioned apply, but that is for another thread. Or not, because I largely liked TW and think it contains some rather interesting female characters actually (though two of my personal favourites haven't appeared in the games yet, and my other fave, Shani, was written out). So why is TW aimed at men and not at me? Because of a male protagonist? Well, Planescape: Torment is my favourite game ever, so it can't be that. The shocking and horrifying presence of bare boobs? Well, I have those, they're marvellous, so nope. Violence and swearing? I would hardly be playing video games as a hobby at all if that was something I found a big deal. Does Gandalf explain why it is so, in his opinion?

Gandalf made the following opening statement in his other thread:

'Not trying to be sexist just curious but for some reason the whole Dragon Age series seems like it is written to appeal more to the female audience, anyone else get this impression? Not having a go at anyone I just find it 'unique', to be fair it would seem most games these days are writen to appeal more to males, I mean we got the far superior Witcher series so I guess it is about time women got a series of games made to appeal more to them, all the more power to ya girlfriend

So he never even tried to explain what he meant by any of his thoughts. He just left his entire statement in a vacuum, and what? You (and he and others) are surprised that it can easily be inferred in a negative light? You're astonished that the phrase 'all the more power to ya girlfriend' can be seen as just a trifle condescending when coming from a guy who has also just stated 'we (ie men) got the far superior Witcher series', meaning that you ie wimmin got the far inferior Dragon Age series? Inference follows: So, you know, you lucky ladies go for it (more power to ya!) with your rubbish game, and we'll stick with the good stuff!!!!1111!111 And  without even attempting to explain why any of that opinion is actually accurate? In any way at all, let alone a way that doesn't insult the intelligence of fans of this supposedly far inferior series?  If that honestly goes over your head, then I find that surprising. I read very well, but I'm not entirely sure your comprehension is up to scratch. Or maybe, the fact you and I can infer wildly different intent from the same statement, simply means that Mr Fabulous needs to learn to clarify and communicate his ideas better.

Also, Dragon Age isn't 'Medieval Feminism'. It, like TW, is a Medieval-inspired fantasy video game.   Bioware has, since the days of Baldur's Gate 2, attempted to give strong, but not necessarily historically accurate, characterisation to the majority of its characters, regardless of gender. I find it quite depressing that people in this thread persist in seeing such a thing as 'feminism' or 'tokenism' rather than as a completely normal attempt to write good characters.

Edit: When referring to opinion, there is no such thing as objectivity. Opinions are only ever subjective.

THIS!!!!!^^^ Boobs ARE marvelous

Seriously though, reading this post really makes you realize how good a job they did with TW world, but how male orientated it is too.

As a side note to that I really wish some gaming characters would throw mixed signals around during romances. It's so often the case of "Durr I like you." "Durr I like you too" "let's have sex". Christ knows I've thought women have loved or hated me and often found out the opposite to be true. I digress though, sorry.

[AllThatJazz]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

I have played The Witcher games, both of them, several times. I've also read the books. I would, admittedly, like to see one female character in the games who isn't a) sexually manipulative being sexually manipulated c) just wanting to be 'ploughed' by Geralt in general or d) old and unshaggeable therefore none of the aforementioned apply, but that is for another thread. Or not, because I largely liked TW and think it contains some rather interesting female characters actually (though two of my personal favourites haven't appeared in the games yet, and my other fave, Shani, was written out). So why is TW aimed at men and not at me? Because of a male protagonist? Well, Planescape: Torment is my favourite game ever, so it can't be that. The shocking and horrifying presence of bare boobs? Well, I have those, they're marvellous, so nope. Violence and swearing? I would hardly be playing video games as a hobby at all if that was something I found a big deal. Does Gandalf explain why it is so, in his opinion?

Gandalf made the following opening statement in his other thread:

'Not trying to be sexist just curious but for some reason the whole Dragon Age series seems like it is written to appeal more to the female audience, anyone else get this impression? Not having a go at anyone I just find it 'unique', to be fair it would seem most games these days are writen to appeal more to males, I mean we got the far superior Witcher series so I guess it is about time women got a series of games made to appeal more to them, all the more power to ya girlfriend

So he never even tried to explain what he meant by any of his thoughts. He just left his entire statement in a vacuum, and what? You (and he and others) are surprised that it can easily be inferred in a negative light? You're astonished that the phrase 'all the more power to ya girlfriend' can be seen as just a trifle condescending when coming from a guy who has also just stated 'we (ie men) got the far superior Witcher series', meaning that you ie wimmin got the far inferior Dragon Age series? Inference follows: So, you know, you lucky ladies go for it (more power to ya!) with your rubbish game, and we'll stick with the good stuff!!!!1111!111 And  without even attempting to explain why any of that opinion is actually accurate? In any way at all, let alone a way that doesn't insult the intelligence of fans of this supposedly far inferior series?  If that honestly goes over your head, then I find that surprising. I read very well, but I'm not entirely sure your comprehension is up to scratch. Or maybe, the fact you and I can infer wildly different intent from the same statement, simply means that Mr Fabulous needs to learn to clarify and communicate his ideas better.

Also, Dragon Age isn't 'Medieval Feminism'. It, like TW, is a Medieval-inspired fantasy video game.   Bioware has, since the days of Baldur's Gate 2, attempted to give strong, but not necessarily historically accurate, characterisation to the majority of its characters, regardless of gender. I find it quite depressing that people in this thread persist in seeing such a thing as 'feminism' or 'tokenism' rather than as a completely normal attempt to write good characters.

Edit: When referring to opinion, there is no such thing as objectivity. Opinions are only ever subjective.

THIS!!!!!^^^ Boobs ARE marvelous

Seriously though, reading this post really makes you realize how good a job they did with TW world, but how male orientated it is too.

As a side note to that I really wish some gaming characters would throw mixed signals around during romances. It's so often the case of "Durr I like you." "Durr I like you too" "let's have sex". Christ knows I've thought women have loved or hated me and often found out the opposite to be true. I digress though, sorry.

Yes! More nuanced relationships, and characters in general, would be very welcome I was picked on (very lightly, not bullied or anything) by a boy at secondary school for six years. It was only after we left that I found out he'd fancied me the entire time! People are Strange, as the song goes

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Goneaviking wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

The patronising tone mostly.

Also the part where you suggest that the franchise was written primarily for women (unlike the superior witcher series) because women's interests and tastes are so very different to men's.

Then there's the part where your OP in that thread treated women like a charity case and you were doing them a special favour. But maybe that one's a part of the patronising tone?

Well I dont know if it was written primarily for women but I do know that the writing staff is mostly female and it is only natural that the preferences of the writer will colour the content that is created. At the time of writing the thread I diddnt know that the writing team was mostly female but considering I was able to pick up on it I guess it must have had some effect on the game?

As for the patronising tone I think you are reading too much into things, all I did was suggest it would be neat if Bioware put a female lead on the cover in recognition of their female fanbase, do you not like this idea?

The thing about being patronising is that you often don't realise you're doing it until it's pointed out to you, if you ever do.

It's a valid point that the writing team IS mostly and that does certainly colour the process, as commented on by Mr Gaider on his blog. 

The problem is the tone of writing you've adopted on this issue, and the way you've become defensive about it just compounds the problem. I doubt that you intended it to be patronising, but intent is only half the problem.

It's a bad idea to treat women, or any group or individual actually, as a charity case. People tend not to like it when someone takes it upon themselves to argue their case for them, partially because of the implication that they can't do it themselves and partially because their defenders often don't really know what they're talking about. They often miss important points, ignore major issues and focus on minor ones, and they unintentionally distort the message.

I'm indifferent to the idea of whether there's a male or female on the case of DA:I. I liked the first two instalments in the series, and what I've seen of the development suggests I may well enjoy the next one as well which is a much bigger determiner of whether I'll buy it than what's on the cover.

If it's important to women to have a female on the cover, then let them ask. I'll sign the petition, but I don't have an iron in that fire.

If you read my earlier posts you will see I never treated women as a "charity case" or implied they were incapable of sticking up for themselves, hell if you read my earlier posts I actually suggested that if women want things to change in the "male dominated games industry" then they need to take a more active role in the gaming industry just as the female writers in the Dragon Age writing team already have done. I am not "patronising" anyone.

Sutekh wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

Sutekh wrote...

Reading this, it's easy to understand "inferior games are aimed at females".

He's giving his objective opinion that the Witcher series is better than Dragon Age.

He did not say "The Witcher is better and therefore is aimed at men".

Compare the stories of both (read: play the series fully) then compare how women are treated in The Witcher series and how they're treated in Dragon Age (Dragon Age is basically medieval feminism) and you will see why he said what he said.

He isn't sexist because you misread what he said.

And to every other poster here jumping on the "Good post!" bandwagon; stop it. You, in your eagerness to brand him a sexist - misread it too.

Nobody can have any sort of a discussion when people just throw that kind of crap around at the drop of a hat. Stop.

You should calm down. Even Gandalf in is reply remained civil and reasonable, while he was the specific target. Telling people to stop isn't the better way to make a point.

So.

First, I've played both series, fully (so, no, Dave, I'm not dismissing something I haven't played. In fact, I'm not dismissing anything. I haven't said squat in my post about my thoughts on The Witcher).

Second, I've explicitly said that I wasn't sure it was what he meant. I said it could be understood this way. I didn't misread, you did. The problem I have with him is in this thread, not in one in which I haven't participated. And I could point you exactly to the very problematic things Gandalf wrote here, but I suppose I'd be misreading, throwing crap, and crying sexism where there isn't, am I right?

Thinking of it, though, I do have a problem with the idea that a woman cannot deal with a story set in a misogynistic world, such as The Witcher or ASoIaF, and that we'd better stick to safe spaces where we're well represented and treated. I'm a big girl. I understand context.

It's also lovely that you consider the mere inclusion of women as "feminism".

Regardless, you're barking at the wrong tree, for the wrong reasons.

(And there's no such thing as an objective opinion about a preference, btw. Another can of worm, but still).

Zkyrie isnt wrong though and this does need to stop, I dont believe anyone other than yourself said anything like "woman cannot deal with a story set in a misogynistic world" so you really cant blame anyone for percieved sexism other than yourself.

AllThatJazz wrote...
<snip>

Give it a rest Jazz, I never claimed that some women cant enjoy the Witcher series and even stated this many times, if you would actually read my posts instead of jumping to conclusions you might see that.

Now that we have gotten that out of the road can we please get on with the topic at hand without any further derailment attempts?

Modifié par Gandalf-the-Fabulous, 28 février 2013 - 11:58 .

[SpunkyMonkey]

AllThatJazz wrote...

Yes! More nuanced relationships, and characters in general, would be very welcome I was picked on (very lightly, not bullied or anything) by a boy at secondary school for six years. It was only after we left that I found out he'd fancied me the entire time! People are Strange, as the song goes

Definitely! Would be great to see some of that in DA:3 Maybe even make the relationships rely on how the PC approaches their love interest, so that it gives more of a natural feel to relationship development. Characters would see a person's approach differently, and react as their character would. So you'd have options which could be read either way depending on the NPC as such:

Confident/arrogant - Gentle/Shy or weak - Charming/Slimy - Funny/Annoying - Lustful/Pervy etc.

It'd make it more realistic, more about compatability and a damn sight more interesting than "I like you. Get your kegs down"

Great tune btw.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 28 février 2013 - 11:50 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

AllThatJazz wrote...
I have played The Witcher games, both of them, several times. I've also read the books. I would, admittedly, like to see one female character in the games who isn't a) sexually manipulative being sexually manipulated c) just wanting to be 'ploughed' by Geralt in general or d) old and unshaggeable therefore none of the aforementioned apply, but that is for another thread. Or not, 

Anezka, Saskia, Marie Louisa La Valette, Brigida, Ves (her wanting to have sex is earned and women can want sex it's fine, but she was initially uninterested), Sile de Tanserville (was manipulated but not sexually as far as we are aware), Carmen in TW1.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 février 2013 - 12:38 .

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

I would probably remove Ves as I am pretty sure she qualifies for at least 2 of those qualities.

[AllThatJazz]

Gandalf, I think you can come across as condescending and belittling to the people you are addressing, whether you intend to or not. I don't need to jump to conclusions, I just have to read your posts (and I have read them). If that isn't the way you intend for your posts to be interpreted then say so, clarify what it is you actually mean, apologise for any misunderstanding/offence caused and move on. But blaming other people for 'misinterpreting' posts that are so bloody vague they practically beg for it isn't terribly fair without accepting at least some responsibility for that yourself.

You said that TW2 is 'aimed' at men, not that women can't enjoy it. I never said that you said the latter, but I did ask you to clarify the former, since in the context of your whole statement (regarding the superiority of the one game over the other) it could easily be interpreted as a bit of a backhanded insult, whether just to women or in fact to fans of Dragon Age in general.

I'm happy not to get involved in any further confrontations with you (would prefer that, actually) - but nor am I going to ignore something that really ticks me off. That's all.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

I would probably remove Ves as I am pretty sure she qualifies for at least 2 of those qualities.

She doens't sexually manipulate or get sexually manipulated. She doens't want want to have sex with Geralt initially, this happens IF Geralt treats her with respect. So she doesn't want to have sex in general or off the bat. 

[AllThatJazz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...
I have played The Witcher games, both of them, several times. I've also read the books. I would, admittedly, like to see one female character in the games who isn't a) sexually manipulative being sexually manipulated c) just wanting to be 'ploughed' by Geralt in general or d) old and unshaggeable therefore none of the aforementioned apply, but that is for another thread. Or not, 

Anezka, Saskia, Marie Louisa La Valette, Brigida, Ves (her wanting to have sex is earned and women can want sex it's fine, but she was initially uninterested), Sile de Tanserville (was manipulated but not sexually as far as we are aware), Carmen in TW1.  

Marie Louise la Valette uses the product of her sexual relationship with Foltest to try and manipulate events. And isn't Saskia basically under a 'love' spell cast by Philippa Eilhart, when she's not in a coma? Ves spreads her legs for the first guy who can beat the crud out of her (happens to be Geralt), Carmen runs a brothel (a madam is kind of the definition of a woman who uses sex to further her goals, in this case money) - although I had forgotten about her, I did like her in TW1. Anezka is barely a cameo, let alone a character.

In fairness (that lot was well researched! lol) you are spot on about Brigida (added in the Enhanced Edition, no? Both of my TW2 playthroughs were vanilla, I'll have to load it up again). And Sile - ehhhh, ok - though I thought it was intimated that she was having sex with the king she was employed by? Could be wrong there, though, maybe I was just distracted by her cleavage

Edit: To re-state, I enjoy TW as it is, like many of the female characters (even the ones I'm mean about above) and wouldn't go into CDPR forums demanding they change their game to suit me. I'd just love to see a female slightly more reflective of some of the brilliant women I know, that's all 

SpunkyMonkey - yeah, DA as it stands is a bit 'have romance convos, followed by the 'I Win' sex scene, followed by ... nada.  A bit more substanbce, a few more ups and downs would be cool

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 28 février 2013 - 01:24 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

AllThatJazz wrote...
Marie Louise la Valette uses the product of her sexual relationship with Foltest to try and manipulate events.

She doesn't, it's the nobles who try to use her children. 

And isn't Saskia basically under a 'love' spell cast by Philippa Eilhart, when she's not in a coma? 

That's not sexual. She is charmed into loving Philippa and thus obeying her unconditionally, but there is no sexual manipulation involved. 

Ves spreads her legs for the first guy who can beat the crud out of her (happens to be Geralt), 

An oversimplification and you know it. She wants to have sex to the legendary swordfighter who took her seriously enough to beat her and not act all chilvalrous. Perfectly in line with her character. 
But she's not there just so we can have sex. 

EDIT: and she seems more fond of riding then spreading legs. 

Carmen runs a brothel (a madam is kind of the definition of a woman who uses sex to further her goals, in this case money) - although I had forgotten about her, I did like her in TW1. 

If you are saying prostitution equals sexual manipualtion, then no. Prostituton is selling sex which is vastly different. Furthermore, that's not what her role is in the game. 

And Sile - ehhhh, ok - though I thought it was intimated that she was having sex with the king she was employed by? Could be wrong there, though, maybe I was just distracted by her cleavage

There is no such mention. In the game at least. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 février 2013 - 01:31 .

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

She doens't sexually manipulate or get sexually manipulated.

I thought it was implied that she often exploited her womanly features in many undercover opperations for the Blue Stripes and confirmed by the fact that she is sent to infiltrate Loredo's mansion as a prostitute?

She also offers herself to Henselt in exchange for the lives of her squad in which Henselt accepts the payment and fails to deliver his side of the bargain.