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[KnightofPhoenix]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...
I thought it was implied that she often exploited her womanly features in many undercover opperations for the Blue Stripes and confirmed by the fact that she is sent to infiltrate Loredo's mansion as a prostitute?

She also offers herself to Henselt in exchange for the lives of her squad in which Henselt accepts the payment and fails to deliver his side of the bargain.

Granted on the first point, but that fails miserably. Still, other than the Blue Stripes just taking advantage of her being a woman, we don't see that much sexual manipulation. Like she doesn't seduce. She just pretends to be a prostitute. 

As for the 2nd part. She was emotionally coerced. that' not sexual manipulation. 

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

AllThatJazz wrote...

And Sile - ehhhh, ok - though I thought it was intimated that she was having sex with the king she was employed by? Could be wrong there, though, maybe I was just distracted by her cleavage

I believe Henselt was having trouble producing an heir and Sile was to help with that (proving her worth as an adviser and court mage in an attempt to usurp Dethmold) but I dont believe it was implied that she was sleeping with the king.

Modifié par Gandalf-the-Fabulous, 28 février 2013 - 01:36 .

[AllThatJazz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...
Marie Louise la Valette uses the product of her sexual relationship with Foltest to try and manipulate events.

She doesn't, it's the nobles who try to use her children. 

And isn't Saskia basically under a 'love' spell cast by Philippa Eilhart, when she's not in a coma? 

That's not sexual. She is charmed into loving Philippa and thus obeying her unconditionally, but there is no sexual manipulation involved. 

Ves spreads her legs for the first guy who can beat the crud out of her (happens to be Geralt), 

An oversimplification and you know it. She wants to have sex to the legendary swordfighter who took her seriously enough to beat her and not act all chilvalrous. Perfectly in line with her character. 
But she's not there just so we can have sex. 

Carmen runs a brothel (a madam is kind of the definition of a woman who uses sex to further her goals, in this case money) - although I had forgotten about her, I did like her in TW1. 

If you are saying prostitution equals sexual manipualtion, then no. Prostituton is selling sex which is vastly different. Furthermore, that's not what her role is in the game. 

And Sile - ehhhh, ok - though I thought it was intimated that she was having sex with the king she was employed by? Could be wrong there, though, maybe I was just distracted by her cleavage

There is no such mention. In the game at least. 

Do you really not get the point I was trying to make? I think there is a disctinct over -emphasis on sex and sexuality with regards to female characters in The Witcher, whether they fit precisely into my little categories or not .  Ves is a fantastic character, the outcome of whose story arc results in her offering sex (disappointingly in my view, thought it would have been better if she'd told Geralt to get lost). I'm oversimplifying her a little, but you're giving her more complexity than she's due, in my view. 

Argh, since this really isn't even that big a deal for me (I'll be pre-ordering TW3 as soon as I can) , and since I really don't want this to turn into yet another TW v DA thread, I guess I'll leave it as an agree to disagree?

[KnightofPhoenix]

lol Henselt sleep with a sorceress? Never.

I thought you meant the king of Povir.

[SpunkyMonkey]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Granted on the first point, but that fails miserably. Still, other than the Blue Stripes just taking advantage of her being a woman, we don't see that much sexual manipulation. Like she doesn't seduce. She just pretends to be a prostitute. 

As for the 2nd part. She was emotionally coerced. that' not sexual manipulation. 

The way the game handles it with Ves is actually very good IMO. In my mind Ves' non-seductive seduction of Geralt is all planned and under orders from Roche in order to keep a closer eye on him. I know the game never hints towards that, but it was something I always thought may be possiible and I was actually half-expecting some sort of similar reveal in Chapter 3.

AllThatJazz wrote...

Do you really not get the point I was trying to make? I think there is a disctinct over -emphasis on sex and sexuality with regards to female characters in The Witcher, whether they fit precisely into my little categories or not .  Ves is a fantastic character, the outcome of whose story arc results in her offering sex (disappointingly in my view, thought it would have been better if she'd told Geralt to get lost). I'm oversimplifying her a little, but you're giving her more complexity than she's due, in my view.

Argh, since this really isn't even that big a deal for me (I'll be pre-ordering TW3 as soon as I can) , and since I really don't want this to turn into yet another TW v DA thread, I guess I'll leave it as an agree to disagree?

The jounal entry certainly backs that up - Her girlish face and shapely body would stand out even if a uniform didn't emphasize them.

You don't ever read "His rugged jawline and manly bulge made wearing all but the most fitted armour impossible"

But again that's in keeping with the medival theme and narrators POV to some degree.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 28 février 2013 - 01:46 .

[AllThatJazz]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

And Sile - ehhhh, ok - though I thought it was intimated that she was having sex with the king she was employed by? Could be wrong there, though, maybe I was just distracted by her cleavage

I believe Henselt was having trouble producing an heir and Sile was to help with that (proving her worth as an adviser and court mage in an attempt to usurp Dethmold) but I dont believe it was implied that she was sleeping with the king.

Ah, ok, thanks. The cleavage thing clearly got me there.

[KnightofPhoenix]

AllThatJazz wrote...
Do you really not get the point I was trying to make?

No I do. I just don't agree with it or find it lacking nuance.

Not that I don't have problems with some aspects of how women are portrayed, I have quite a lot in fact and have been arguing for improvement in their forums for months. 

But we have to understand the context of the setting that is rather similar to the medieval era in our history. Women's options as far as emporwement were very limited, so most women who wanted to get involved in politics very understandably used sex as a weapon. Men didn't need to use it that often because they had other alternatives.

Think of Cersei Lannister telling Sansa that a woman's greatest weapon is her vagina. George R. R. Martin isn't being sexist for having a character say and believe that. He's showing how Cersei's options, as a woman, are very limited. Most women invovled in politics in ASoIaF have used sex on different occasions to get what they want, and the only man who did the same that I can recall is Petyr. 

So yes I will agree that the series still has room to improve. But I don't think it's fair to the writing and the characters to say that they are mostly relegated to sex in some fashion or the other. That was certainly the case in TW1, but not in TW2. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...
The jounal entry certainly backs that up - Her girlish face and shapely body would stand out even if a uniform didn't emphasize them. 

You don't ever read "His rugged jawline and manly bulge made wearing all but the mot fitted armour impossible"

Keep in midn that all journal entries are written by Dandelion who remains in character.

And Dandy is the biggest womanizing jackass there is. I found it to be a good touch actually. 

[SpunkyMonkey]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...
The jounal entry certainly backs that up - Her girlish face and shapely body would stand out even if a uniform didn't emphasize them. 

You don't ever read "His rugged jawline and manly bulge made wearing all but the mot fitted armour impossible"

Keep in midn that all journal entries are written by Dandelion who remains in character.

And Dandy is the biggest womanizing jackass there is. I found it to be a good touch actually. 

Yeah, just added similar to the end of my post lol.

[AllThatJazz]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Granted on the first point, but that fails miserably. Still, other than the Blue Stripes just taking advantage of her being a woman, we don't see that much sexual manipulation. Like she doesn't seduce. She just pretends to be a prostitute. 

As for the 2nd part. She was emotionally coerced. that' not sexual manipulation. 

The way the game handles it with Ves is actually very good IMO. In my mind Ves' non-seductive seduction of Geralt is all planned and under orders from Roche in order to keep a closer eye on him. I know the game never hints towards that, but it was something I always thought may be possiible and I was actually half-expecting some sort of similar reveal in Chapter 3.

AllThatJazz wrote...

Do you really not get the point I was trying to make? I think there is a disctinct over -emphasis on sex and sexuality with regards to female characters in The Witcher, whether they fit precisely into my little categories or not .  Ves is a fantastic character, the outcome of whose story arc results in her offering sex (disappointingly in my view, thought it would have been better if she'd told Geralt to get lost). I'm oversimplifying her a little, but you're giving her more complexity than she's due, in my view.

Argh, since this really isn't even that big a deal for me (I'll be pre-ordering TW3 as soon as I can) , and since I really don't want this to turn into yet another TW v DA thread, I guess I'll leave it as an agree to disagree?

The jounal entry certainly backs that up - Her girlish face and shapely body would stand out even if a uniform didn't emphasize them.

You don't ever read "His rugged jawline and manly bulge made wearing all but the mot fitted armour impossible"

SpunkyMonkey  Brilliant. Just one journal entry like that and I would never complain about TW again! 

[SpunkyMonkey]

AllThatJazz wrote...

SpunkyMonkey  Brilliant. Just one journal entry like that and I would never complain about TW again! 

I'd love to see it. In fact the approach they have taken with this Witcher game - 2 paths for 2 allies - I'd LOVE to see implemented with a two sex POV approach. Some of the potential there is massive.

Might be a big ask but would be very interesting.

In games where I can create a chracater I always play a red-head female elf called Tyris, and for some unknown reason it seems to give various games a much better feel! Maybe because it feels as if it's you against the world more?

Female leads in DA:O work way better for me personally.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 28 février 2013 - 01:51 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

SpunkyMonkey  Brilliant. Just one journal entry like that and I would never complain about TW again! 

I'd love to see it. In fact the approach they have taken with this Witcher game - 2 paths for 2 allies - I'd LOVE to see implemented with a two sex POV approach. Some of the potential there is massive.

Might be a big ask but would be very interesting.

I am crossing my fingers for Ciri playable segments in TW3. 

[AllThatJazz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...
Do you really not get the point I was trying to make?

No I do. I just don't agree with it or find it lacking nuance.

Not that I don't have problems with some aspects of how women are portrayed, I have quite a lot in fact and have been arguing for improvement in their forums for months. 

But we have to understand the context of the setting that is rather similar to the medieval era in our history. Women's options as far as emporwement were very limited, so most women who wanted to get involved in politics very understandably used sex as a weapon. Men didn't need to use it that often because they had other alternatives.

Think of Cersei Lannister telling Sansa that a woman's greatest weapon is her vagina. George R. R. Martin isn't being sexist for having a character say and believe that. He's showing how Cersei's options, as a woman, are very limited. Most women invovled in politics in ASoIaF have used sex on different occasions to get what they want, and the only man who did the same that I can recall is Petyr. 

So yes I will agree that the series still has room to improve. But I don't think it's fair to the writing and the characters to say that they are mostly relegated to sex in some fashion or the other. That was certainly the case in TW1, but not in TW2. 

You make good points (also the Dandelion in character journal point, I hadn't thought of it in that way), and I concede that my arguments take an extreme position - I guess my CDPR hackles were raised with the sex cards and haven't quite gone back down yet  - I still find Ves a bit of a missed opportunity, though - and it was a shame Shani didn't reappear - of all the women in TW, I thought these two had the most thought put into them in terms of their 'humanness' rather than just their 'womanness'. I find myself a little irritated when powerful women in the game, such as sorceresses, who should have other means at their disposal for achieving their goals (otherwise what's the point in them being magic-wielding sorceresses?), instead go straight for the sex option :/ I do absolutely agree that TW2 writing and characterisation is leagues better than TW1 in most cases.

Edit: I would also love Ciri playable segments in TW2, she is one of my favourite characters in the Witcher universe

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 28 février 2013 - 02:12 .

[Commander Kurt]

I swore that I wouldn't set foot in this thread (no disrespect OP, it's just me and feminism in gaming..) but it's constantly there, on the first page, mocking me.
I agree that every other soldier/warrior being a woman isn't realistic, women are far too valuable as breeding machines to be allowed such dangerous hobbies. This is, after all, why women were not soldiers/warriors in our reality (or did you think that only the strong men were drafted in medeval times? Ha, funny). Still, I like to escape my reality when playing games and I actually resent the fact that a bunch of not-quite-warrior-material guys get to enact their fantasy while bemoaning that I can have mine due to this not being realistic. Really? Realistic? You're fine with monsters, un-dead, magic, dragons and backpacks that fit 90 broad swords, but women being equal to men is where you draw the line?

*sigh*

I propose a compromise. Kill off most of the men (making them rare, and valuable). Now we can have a fantasy world that makes sense, while still allowing women to not have to deal with the crap of every day life that they are understandably quite fed up with.

Or, you know, suck it up and try to enjoy a fantasy setting where you are not superior to women. Hard as that may be...

[KnightofPhoenix]

AllThatJazz wrote...
I find myself a little irritated when powerful women in the game, such as sorceresses, who should have other means at their disposal for achieving their goals (otherwise what's the point in them being magic-wielding sorceresses?), instead go straight for the sex option :/ 

But they do. From political assassinations, to super spells, to pretending to have a cure for your ailments, to even owning shares in banks that you're indebted to. To seeking to control the Council and Conclave and create a new state. It's all in the games. 

Again, it's not fair to reduce all the planning and thinking Philippa Eilhart put into this to just sex. It was but one tool she used.  

[AllThatJazz]

Commander Kurt wrote...

I swore that I wouldn't set foot in this thread (no disrespect OP, it's just me and feminism in gaming..) but it's constantly there, on the first page, mocking me.
I agree that every other soldier/warrior being a woman isn't realistic, women are far too valuable as breeding machines to be allowed such dangerous hobbies. This is, after all, why women were not soldiers/warriors in our reality (or did you think that only the strong men were drafted in medeval times? Ha, funny). Still, I like to escape my reality when playing games and I actually resent the fact that a bunch of not-quite-warrior-material guys get to enact their fantasy while bemoaning that I can have mine due to this not being realistic. Really? Realistic? You're fine with monsters, un-dead, magic, dragons and backpacks that fit 90 broad swords, but women being equal to men is where you draw the line?

*sigh*

I propose a compromise. Kill off most of the men (making them rare, and valuable). Now we can have a fantasy world that makes sense, while still allowing women to not have to deal with the crap of every day life that they are understandably quite fed up with.

Or, you know, suck it up and try to enjoy a fantasy setting where you are not superior to women. Hard as that may be...

Yeah, the 'realism' one is an argument I struggle with. There's a contention that there are 'too many' powerful women in the DA universe, which makes it 'unrealistic'. It isn't realistic in the sense of actually trying to represent a Medieval world, and nor is The Witcher. If it was, then both games would feature almost nothing but ugly, underequipped blokes with awful teeth, probably riddled with various diseases, fighting for Gawd knows what imagined slight to the local lord, smacking at each other with swords and dying very quickly, either through being stabbed, trampled by a noble's horse, or pooing themselves to death because they picked up dysentery. Lovely.

[AllThatJazz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...
I find myself a little irritated when powerful women in the game, such as sorceresses, who should have other means at their disposal for achieving their goals (otherwise what's the point in them being magic-wielding sorceresses?), instead go straight for the sex option :/ 

But they do. From political assassinations, to super spells, to pretending to have a cure for your ailments, to even owning shares in banks that you're indebted to. To seeking to control the Council and Conclave and create a new state. It's all in the games. 

Again, it's not fair to reduce all the planning and thinking Philippa Eilhart put into this to just sex. It was but one tool she used.  

True. And yet most of this is a case of being told it rather than shown it. The only scene I really remember with Philippa specifically is the one where she's naked with Cynthia (Cynthia, right?) , oh and the last bit where she's begging for her life. I understand (and am not offended by) the nature of the scene - but I didn't think it did her character any favours in terms of presenting her as someone who was powerful in general, only as someone who was powerful through sex.

[Lennard Testarossa]

Commander Kurt wrote...
Really? Realistic? You're fine with monsters, un-dead, magic, dragons and backpacks that fit 90 broad swords, but women being equal to men is where you draw the line?

"It has dragons!" is still a ****ty argument for anything. Part of the appeal of fantasy worlds is that humans are still humans. If changing human nature at will is fine for fantasy, there's no need for believable characters. Humans psychology is simply different there, why should they act in a way that we find believable?

[Xilizhra]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Commander Kurt wrote...
Really? Realistic? You're fine with monsters, un-dead, magic, dragons and backpacks that fit 90 broad swords, but women being equal to men is where you draw the line?

"It has dragons!" is still a ****ty argument for anything. Part of the appeal of fantasy worlds is that humans are still humans. If changing human nature at will is fine for fantasy, there's no need for believable characters. Humans psychology is simply different there, why should they act in a way that we find believable?

Cultural differences can change a hell of a lot, and there are many, many cultural differences in Thedas. Enough, certainly, that I find all gender ratios wholly believable, and find that those who don't are badly overreacting at best.

[KnightofPhoenix]

AllThatJazz wrote...
True. And yet most of this is a case of being told it rather than shown it. The only scene I really remember with Philippa specifically is the one where she's naked with Cynthia (Cynthia, right?) , oh and the last bit where she's begging for her life. I understand (and am not offended by) the nature of the scene - but I didn't think it did her character any favours in terms of presenting her as someone who was powerful in general, only as someone who was powerful through sex.

Begged for her life?
She defied Radovid so badly that he was enraged. She NEVER begged. That's what pissed Radovid off, he commanded her to beg for forgiveness and she refused.

We do see Philippa as powerful. She orchestrated the whole alliance between Aedirn and upper Aedirn, which gave Saskia some 200+ professional soldiers. We see her plans with the council and Conclave almost succeeding (just Radovid is better at the game).  EDIT: she most likely caused Saskia's poisoning to begin with and ruthessly manipulated the entire city. Not to mention her being behind most of the game's plot. 

I'm sorry, but I think you need to play the game and pay closer attention. Philippa Eilhart is one of the most powerful and competent characters in the game even in defeat. 

Also that naked scene with Cynthia serves a plot and story purpose. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 février 2013 - 02:44 .

[SpunkyMonkey]

AllThatJazz wrote...

Yeah, the 'realism' one is an argument I struggle with. There's a contention that there are 'too many' powerful women in the DA universe, which makes it 'unrealistic'. It isn't realistic in the sense of actually trying to represent a Medieval world, and nor is The Witcher. If it was, then both games would feature almost nothing but ugly, underequipped blokes with awful teeth, probably riddled with various diseases, fighting for Gawd knows what imagined slight to the local lord, smacking at each other with swords and dying very quickly, either through being stabbed, trampled by a noble's horse, or pooing themselves to death because they picked up dysentery. Lovely.

I think it's a balancing act tbh. It's when the constant appearance of female warriors and leaders starts feeling out of place that there becomes a problem IMO - especially when they are deemed leaders, but look and act like Isabella. It just doesn't fit together and feels weird.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 28 février 2013 - 02:43 .

[Xilizhra]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

Yeah, the 'realism' one is an argument I struggle with. There's a contention that there are 'too many' powerful women in the DA universe, which makes it 'unrealistic'. It isn't realistic in the sense of actually trying to represent a Medieval world, and nor is The Witcher. If it was, then both games would feature almost nothing but ugly, underequipped blokes with awful teeth, probably riddled with various diseases, fighting for Gawd knows what imagined slight to the local lord, smacking at each other with swords and dying very quickly, either through being stabbed, trampled by a noble's horse, or pooing themselves to death because they picked up dysentery. Lovely.

I think it's a balancing act tbh. It's when the constant appearance of female warriors and leaders starts feeling out of place that there becomes a problem IMO - especially when they are deemed leaders, but look and act like Isabella. It just doesn't fit together and feels weird.

It doesn't feel weird at all. Isabela has an idiosyncratic style, but it works. Also, most of the female leaders are in civilian positions, and the ratio is heavily skewed by Chantry gender policies.

[AllThatJazz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...
True. And yet most of this is a case of being told it rather than shown it. The only scene I really remember with Philippa specifically is the one where she's naked with Cynthia (Cynthia, right?) , oh and the last bit where she's begging for her life. I understand (and am not offended by) the nature of the scene - but I didn't think it did her character any favours in terms of presenting her as someone who was powerful in general, only as someone who was powerful through sex.

Begged for her life?
She defied Radovid so badly that he was enraged. She NEVER begged. That's what pissed Radovid off, he commanded her to beg for forgiveness and she refused.

We do see Philippa as powerful. She orchestrated the whole alliance between Aedirn and upper Aedirn, which gave Saskia some 200+ professional soldiers. We see her plans with the council and Conclave almost succeeding (just Radovid is better at the game).  EDIT: she most likely caused Saskia's poisoning to begin with and ruthessly manipulated the entire city. Not to mention her being behind most of the game's plot. 

I'm sorry, but I think you need to play the game and pay closer attention. Philippa Eilhart is one of the most powerful and competent characters in the game even in defeat. 

Also that naked scene with Cynthia serves a plot and story purpose. 

I meant at the end with Geralt. And I know the scene with Cynthia had a plot purpose, I understood that - but it is still my overriding memory of Philippa in-game, and in my view it undermined her character as a whole. 

Anyway, going. Daughters need pcking up from school at some point! Thanks for the debate, nice arguing with you

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 28 février 2013 - 02:50 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

AllThatJazz wrote...
I meant at the end with Geralt. And I know the scene with Cynthia had a plot purpose, I understood that - but it is still my overriding memory of Philippa in-game, and in my view it undermined her character as a whole. 

Anyway, going. Daughters need pcking up from school at some point! Thanks for the debate, nice arguing with you

She was manipulating Geralt and Iorveth at this point. Kicked the latter's ass even when blinded.
She was not sincerily begging for her life.
 
I think it's a shame that you view her that way. Philippa Eilhart is a great character and one of the most powerful and imposing women I've experienced in a game. She's also the queen of my heart    (speaking as a massive Radovid fan).

EDIT: just look at her, she oozes with deviousness



Anyways, likewise  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 février 2013 - 02:56 .