491 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

I guess you don't have that high a sex drive. Primal human instinct is far more powerful than you give it credit for, when conditioned by modern day standards it can be controlled, but in wilder days and wilder circles such as pirates I really doubt that it was.

As a 15-18 y/o teen I would very often want to go out and start a fight if I'd not been with a woman for some time. It's not big or clever, but I'm just being honest and saying I wanted to put myself about and show off in order to pull women. Had you given an 18 y/o me a few weeks/months at sea with a buxom girl like Isabella on the ship there's no way I'd have been doing anything other than trying to get with her. Just my POV though.

Well, you're assuming that her crew are all young.  And you're assuming that you wouldn't have been tossed over the side, or if not acting too poorly, left on shore if you did that -- but you probably would have been hurt quite badly first.  My guess is that behavior could not be tolerated and have order maintained.  A good leader would realize that and take steps to ensure it didn't happen.

I stated the younger example of me because I've been in a relationship for 8 years now, if I hadn't I can't honestly say if I' still be like that or not. I do know lads 30-50 who are still like that though.

And It's only so long before things like that turn into a mutiny IMO. You're right about a good leader, but would pirates have a female put in front of them with a chest like Isabellas and pay much attention to her rules or instructions?

If they respected her, yes they would.  After awhile, they would be accustomed to her appearance.  And men who didn't would have to be dealt with harshly.  if you treat your crew well, and get rid of the ones who cause problems (and trying to get your leader reduced to nothing but a sex object would be seen as a problem by said leader), mutiny is most likely not going to be an issue.

And see, if the majority of the crew respected their captain, then anyone who tried something would be dealing with more than just the captain, who, in Isabela's case could take care of herself, but the ones who respected her as well.  As a woman with many male friends (just friends -- nothing sexual there) since high school, I know how protective they can be.

Modifié par ejoslin, 28 février 2013 - 10:12 .

[Solmanian]

Zkyire wrote...

Solmanian wrote...

Gender equality isn't as rempant on thedas as people seem to think. 99% of the soldiers we encounter are men. Most of the templars are man. Just about everybody working on the docks are man. Women like meredith, aveline (the original and the contemporary), etc seem to be the exception not the rule.

Men being the cannon fodder and women given the leadership roles.

Throwing a grenade into the room and ducking for cover:

The only cannonical female warden commander is the one that gets them kicked out of fereldan...

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zkyire wrote...

It was in response to the post that most people in Thedas militaries were men (i.e. the grunts) but the few women we see are usually in command positions, hell even Mhairi(sp?) spoke well and was well equipped, meaning she wasn't of the rank and file - and she wasn't even a Warden then).

While it's true we don't see as many grunts, we do see the occasional female soldier. The silent sisters or whatever they were called in Orzammar. I'd hardly call Orlesian female bards anything more than tools for the nobility. 
There was this female guard in Fort drakon as well. Ser Cauthrien may be a knight but she's essentially Loghain's hitwoman. The elf who fought for Caladrius. Female Antivan Crows. There were female Andraste cultists.  
And I swear I remember a few random female NPC fighters in cutscenes and whatnot. 

But yes I'd like to have more nameless female grunts as well. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 février 2013 - 10:14 .

[SilentK]

Isabella chooses her own crew. She is in charge. We do not know these people but I'm sure she does.

[Solmanian]

It's not imposssible for a commander to be sexy aswell as an effective commander (wether that commander is male or female). In fact, the aura of leadership in itself is sexy, as people are attracted to power. But it's not a two way street. A commander that relies on sex to make their underling obey their orders is no better than a prostitute, and will find it hard to earn respect among their man or their peers. Sexual tension in general is horrible thing to eal with when it comes to battlefield command. Just look at ME1: can you deny that a large part (if not the vast majority) of the players based their virmire decision on which squadmate they were planning to romance? And it's so much worse IRL, which is why most armies avoid if possible mixing man and woman in combat units (among those that even have female combatants); it's not because of sexism, it's common sense.

[SilentK]

We have not seen her crew or how she interacts with these people.

[ejoslin]

SilentK wrote...

We have not seen her crew or how she interacts with these people.

We know she does not have sex with her crew. We know her men respect her fighting ability. In DAO, you can talk to her (I believe) first mate who has a high degree of respect for her. That's all we know, though.

Modifié par ejoslin, 28 février 2013 - 10:47 .

[SilentK]

ejoslin wrote...

SilentK wrote...

We have not seen her crew or how she interacts with these people.

We know she does not have sex with her crew. We know her men respect her fighting ability. In DAO, you can talk to her (I believe) first mate who has a high degree of respect for her. That's all we know, though.

I remember her mentioning the two guys who got in a scuffle, over a piece of toast was it? Pirates are picky about toast apparently and how one of them got a bit of a blade stuck in his shoulder. She brought this up because she figured that Fenris could have picked that out, one thing he could have done with his ability to reach into people. At that point she talks mentions them by name so you get the feeling that she cares for them as people. Also the sailor that she says Hawke reminded her of, who was lost in a storm.

Hmm.. think my DAII-knowhow is a little patchy  

[Boiny Bunny]

Commander Kurt wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

Solmanian wrote...

Gender equality isn't as rempant on thedas as people seem to think. 99% of the soldiers we encounter are men. Most of the templars are man. Just about everybody working on the docks are man. Women like meredith, aveline (the original and the contemporary), etc seem to be the exception not the rule.

Men being the cannon fodder and women given the leadership roles.

To be fair, the Landsmeet in DA:O was a total sausage fest.

That's a good point - I never really noticed until you pointed that out (just watched a youtube video of it).

I think you'd find though, that this wasn't necessarily a directive issued by the writers however (at least with respect to the non-talking background nobles), and rather, just something the people putting the scene together did without thinking.  Kind of like in DA2, in the scene where Hawke confronts the Arishok just after the Viscount has been beheaded, there are a bunch of Kirkwall nobles standing around the room.  Within the group of nobles, there are at least 2 - 3 exact copies of each unique character model (clothing, facial features, everything!  Unfortunately, hard to un-notice).  Again, something I doubt the writers intended.  The people putting the scene together just didn't think too hard about how it might look, or hoped that nobody would notice.

[ejoslin]

SilentK wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

SilentK wrote...

We have not seen her crew or how she interacts with these people.

We know she does not have sex with her crew. We know her men respect her fighting ability. In DAO, you can talk to her (I believe) first mate who has a high degree of respect for her. That's all we know, though.

I remember her mentioning the two guys who got in a scuffle, over a piece of toast was it? Pirates are picky about toast apparently and how one of them got a bit of a blade stuck in his shoulder. She brought this up because she figured that Fenris could have picked that out, one thing he could have done with his ability to reach into people. At that point she talks mentions them by name so you get the feeling that she cares for them as people. Also the sailor that she says Hawke reminded her of, who was lost in a storm.

Hmm.. think my DAII-knowhow is a little patchy  

It's more than mine.  I just looked up what her first mate had to say about her in the DAO toolset.  It says quite a bit, actually.  This is assuming a female warden:

Warden: Who are you?
Casivir: They call me Casivir. I am first mate on Captain Isabela's ship. More than this, you do not need to know.
Warden: Isabela is a ship's captain?
Casivir: You are surprised to see another strong woman like yourself?
Casivir: Isabela commands the crew on the Siren's Call. She is a remarkable woman, and as you saw, quite formidable.
Casivir: She calls herself a duelist, but you cannot pay me enough to duel her. I am not so stupid as those two.
Warden: What went on between them?
Casivir:Did you not see? They wanted money back.
Casivir: Some of them never learn. If Isabela consents to play a game with you, it is an honor. You do not ask for compensation if you lose.

This is a woman whose crew respects her. 

Modifié par ejoslin, 28 février 2013 - 11:16 .

[Degs29]

ejoslin wrote...

Degs29 wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

So I just read this article on gamespot and considering that the Dragon Age series has an all female writing staff and appeals mostly to females and male feminists I was just wondering what your thoughts on this were and what you think of the role of women in the Dragon Age series?

Is this really what women (and male feminists) like to believe? That the male power base is so afraid of strong women that they must reinforce the status quo by depicting females in video games as either sex objects or relegating them to "second-tier roles"?

I'm seriously confused....

You'd think that an all female writing staff that "appeals mostly to females and male feminists" would be unconcerned with a male power base being afraid of strong women.  I very much enjoy strong women in video games.  Case in point, Miranda of Mass Effect.  She's a very strong and intelligent woman, capable of leading both men and women and making the big decisions.  I wanted to see her rise to replace TIM in ME3 (obviously that didn't happen) and become a major ally of Shepard.  But wait a minute...isn't she the epitome of sexual gratification?  Honestly, people who can't see past that drivel drive me nuts.  Women have boobs, are shapely, and will forever appeal sexually to men.  It's part of who a woman is.  The only problem comes from when it is depicted as all a woman is.

The Dragon Age series is not exclusively written by females. Where on earth did anyone get that idea? There are women on the staff, as there are men, and the lead writer is a man.

I have no idea why the OP thought that.  I was merely responding to his other points.

[Ninja Stan]

If the casual misogyny in this thread isn't curbed, this thread will be locked and bans will be handed out.

[TEWR]

ejoslin wrote...
This is a woman whose crew respects her. 

But it's also something that she had to earn twice as much as any man would've, if I remember her dialogue with Merrill correctly from a certain cutscene.

[Saibh]

I'm not sure if anyone has brought her up, but possibly the most successful pirate captain in history was a Chinese woman named Ching Shih and was a former Chinese prostitute. I wished more people knew about her, because she has a really neat legacy. I don't think that being sexualized actually threatened Isabela or made her less capable or less command-worthy. 

I do not really like her pantslessness, and I never have, but saying she couldn't is just silly. Ching Shih used to be a prostitute and she had a damn navy at her back. Isabela not being able to command one ship because of boobies? Please.

Modifié par Saibh, 01 mars 2013 - 02:12 .

[ejoslin]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
This is a woman whose crew respects her. 

But it's also something that she had to earn twice as much as any man would've, if I remember her dialogue with Merrill correctly from a certain cutscene.

There's no denying that.  But she did earn it.

[cJohnOne]

So Male Dominace is Human Instinct.  I think there's something wrong with that but I'm not sure what.

Modifié par cJohnOne, 01 mars 2013 - 02:50 .

[Degs29]

Ninja Stan wrote...

If the casual misogyny in this thread isn't curbed, this thread will be locked and bans will be handed out.

Interesting.  In all honestly, I've only read most of page 1, 17 and 18, but from what I've read most people are arguing their opinions respectfully.  Seems to me there are two viewpoints:

1)  A woman can be many things, not limited to but also including an object of sexual desire.
2)  The prevalence of sexual gratification in some video games is derogatory.

I don't find either of these viewpoints to be misogynistic.  Perhaps I haven't read enough of this thread.  I'll have to rectify that.  It's an important topic and seemingly highly relevant.

Modifié par Degs29, 01 mars 2013 - 04:35 .

[celestialfury]

Ninja Stan wrote...

If the casual misogyny in this thread isn't curbed, this thread will be locked and bans will be handed out.

Thank you, nice to see Bioware taking a good stance on this. 

[Degs29]

celestialfury wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...

If the casual misogyny in this thread isn't curbed, this thread will be locked and bans will be handed out.

Thank you, nice to see Bioware taking a good stance on this. 

Handing out bans is well and good if justified, but I'll never agree that locking a thread is the correct action to be taken.  Not that it matters a whole lot what I think here.

Modifié par Degs29, 01 mars 2013 - 05:03 .

[Fredward]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...


Isabela revels in her sexuality, she doesn't shove her vagina in peoples faces. And I don't think sex appeal and authority are mutually exclusive. Like someone else mentioned if she LOST that respect there might be an issue like there would be for any female captain no matter how demure/uptight and considering how things work in Thedas a not insignificant amount of male captains too.

Also. Comparing lack of sex with starvation is the most ludicrous thing I have ever ****ing read.

I guess you don't have that high a sex drive. Primal human instinct is far more powerful than you give it credit for, when conditioned by modern day standards it can be controlled, but in wilder days and wilder circles such as pirates I really doubt that it was.

As a 15-18 y/o teen I would very often want to go out and start a fight if I'd not been with a woman for some time and I'd been to the pub for a drink (not too unheard of amonst pirates). "Going out for a f*** or a fight" as they say. It's not big or clever, but I'm just being honest and saying I wanted to put myself about and show off in order to pull women. Had you given an 18 y/o me a few weeks/months at sea with a buxom girl like Isabella on the ship there's no way I'd have been doing anything other than trying to get with her. Just my POV and instinct though.

I'm 19. My friends are 19 and 20. We're uni students. And yet not once have I heard of anything even resembling a "**** or fight" night. This apparent lack of self control as soon as your winky stands on attention seems much more your issue than a general one. Especially on a ship, where discipline is absolutely key. And lets not forget that Isabela is hardly harmless, I'm sure she's more than capable of sending a horny sailor or four scurrying away.

[TEWR]

Saibh wrote...

I'm not sure if anyone has brought her up, but possibly the most successful pirate captain in history was a Chinese woman named Ching Shih and was a former Chinese prostitute. I wished more people knew about her, because she has a really neat legacy. I don't think that being sexualized actually threatened Isabela or made her less capable or less command-worthy. 

I do not really like her pantslessness, and I never have, but saying she couldn't is just silly. Ching Shih used to be a prostitute and she had a damn navy at her back. Isabela not being able to command one ship because of boobies? Please.

Holy Mother of Partha.... 1800 ships with 80,000 pirates?! By the Paragons... that's ****ing amazing.

There's no denying that.  But she did earn it.

Indeed, and that's a testament to her resolve if nothing else. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 mars 2013 - 07:32 .

[Commander Kurt]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Commander Kurt wrote...

To be fair, the Landsmeet in DA:O was a total sausage fest.

That's a good point - I never really noticed until you pointed that out (just watched a youtube video of it).

I think you'd find though, that this wasn't necessarily a directive issued by the writers however (at least with respect to the non-talking background nobles), and rather, just something the people putting the scene together did without thinking.  Kind of like in DA2, in the scene where Hawke confronts the Arishok just after the Viscount has been beheaded, there are a bunch of Kirkwall nobles standing around the room.  Within the group of nobles, there are at least 2 - 3 exact copies of each unique character model (clothing, facial features, everything!  Unfortunately, hard to un-notice).  Again, something I doubt the writers intended.  The people putting the scene together just didn't think too hard about how it might look, or hoped that nobody would notice.

Doesn't really matter. It's there now and so that is the reality of Ferelden. Also, the representation among the named nobles is hardly 50/50 or anything mildly close to female dominance. I see your point though.

[Commander Kurt]

Ninja Stan wrote...

If the casual misogyny in this thread isn't curbed, this thread will be locked and bans will be handed out.

I'm almost positive that everyone who is displaying casual misogyny in this thread has no idea whatsoever about them doing it, and would not understand a ban being given to them.

Am I naive to think that discussions such as this one might be doing more good than harm? Still, site rules and all, I get it.

[CrystaJ]

It might have started off on that note, but this thread has turned into something salvageable and I like reading through it. Plz don't lock.

[SpunkyMonkey]

Ninja Stan wrote...

If the casual misogyny in this thread isn't curbed, this thread will be locked and bans will be handed out.

If that's the case I'll I'm make this my last comment on the matter, but I'm just being honest and trying to put forward points of views which may help make for a more realistic game. However I'll leave posting after this one.

ejoslin wrote...

If they respected her, yes they would.  After awhile, they would be accustomed to her appearance.  And men who didn't would have to be dealt with harshly.  if you treat your crew well, and get rid of the ones who cause problems (and trying to get your leader reduced to nothing but a sex object would be seen as a problem by said leader), mutiny is most likely not going to be an issue.

And see, if the majority of the crew respected their captain, then anyone who tried something would be dealing with more than just the captain, who, in Isabela's case could take care of herself, but the ones who respected her as well.  As a woman with many male friends (just friends -- nothing sexual there) since high school, I know how protective they can be.

As you say IF they respected her. Again I just don't buy it because of the contradictory standards. How many working male-female friendships do you know of that exist amongst theives, murderers, and rapists? Remember these are pirates - not people who sit down and watch friends together over a tub of popcorn lol. These are people who's very job means hurting, killing and robbing people. People who's jobs are made easier the more fearful their reputation is.

I know she kicks a few bums in the game, not least when you first meet her in DA:2, and she undoubtably is a bit of a badass, but it's still a far cry from slapping a few "land-lubbers" to being able to maintain order amongst a group of people who's very job is to be as evil and feared as possible, especially when she bares as much flesh as she does.

Just take a look at the famed female Chinease pirate Ching Shih - the older pictures of her have her dressed very man-like with little flesh showing and certainly no rediculously low cut tops. Isabella just needs to be curbed overall IMO, she either needs to become an on-land buxom baddass (who knows a crew conflict could nicely explain that) or a less sexual (image-wise definitely) captain.

Anyway, as I've said this has to be my last comment on it really due to the moderator's ban hammer hovering. Really enjoyed yours and some of the other posters counter points, thanks for taking the time to post - same to the others who have posted too.

SilentK wrote...

We have not seen her crew or how she interacts with these people.

But people do get a reputation outside of their job and that reflects on their job. Isabella is reffered to as a "wh*re" by quite a few, and it's made clear that her promiscuity is well known throughout the game. Her crew would hear of this without doubt and I don't think they'd turn a blind eye to it.

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

I'm 19. My friends are 19 and 20. We're uni students. And yet not once have I heard of anything even resembling a "**** or fight" night. This apparent lack of self control as soon as your winky stands on attention seems much more your issue than a general one. Especially on a ship, where discipline is absolutely key. And lets not forget that Isabela is hardly harmless, I'm sure she's more than capable of sending a horny sailor or four scurrying away.

Not at all chap. Midland-based working class England villages still have a large dose of that culture attached to them, it's not just a personal thing. It's less prevelant in recent years, but definitely 10 years ago people went out to either sleep with someone or start a fight if they didn't - some still do. It's like a local right of passage and those men who don't act as such are often seen as lesser men. Rewind several hundred years to medival times and that mentality was socially encouraged as it made for strong men who grew the local areas. This actually touches on a much larger matter which would be interesting to debate and that's the casual gaming audience and it's relationship to non-academic working people. I'd say that more realistic games have become more prevelant because those playing the games are no longer in their teens, there are now 30y/o + people playing them who have a more realistic outlook on life. But that's another debate lol.

As you say you're a student - an academic - someone who would be more in line with the mage proffession and reliant on education, not someone who I'd expect to behave like a pirate or understand that type of mentality. But I appriciate your POV chap, and thanks for posting it



Anyway my last post on it all unfortunately  Thanks to all for posting and debating

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 01 mars 2013 - 09:10 .