491 réponses à ce sujet

[AllThatJazz]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Danny Boy 7 wrote...
It simply falls in line with the idea that women enjoy that type of man and so he's ripe for LI status.

Women dont enjoy that type of man?

They do, but thats more of a side effect of his character rather than a...conscious choice by Mr. Gaider, Well maybe conscious isn't the right word. He (just like all of the characters) are designed to appeal or revolt  us in some way. If however you think that he was designed to be goofy simply to appeal to women....I dunno if I agree.

Perhaps I just dont see the value of the character beyond that goal, plus with Alistair being heir to the throne it also ties into that fairytale ending fantasy where the woman is swept off her feet by the handsome prince and becomes Queen.

Edit: unless you are an elf

Or a Dwarf. or romancing Zevran or Leliana. Or not romancing anyone. Or romancing Alistair but then end it, putting duty before love or whatever RP reason.

Personally, I think Alistair is a pleasant, inoffensive and charming character regardless of his status as LI. I find Varric one of the more enjoyable companions in DA2, despite being the only male companion not romanceable at all. The other, for me, was Aveline, who was written by a male writer.

If your Warden  chooses to, er, 'harden' Alistair (Gawd, how I hate that term, it sounds so wrong! ), then the character becomes less goofy and more serious about his responsibilities - I think it's a nice touch to have characters who can be shaped and influenced in that way by the PC without undergoing a complete personality change, and regardless of whether they are being romanced or not.

Are there blokes in the world (real world) who feel threatened by and resentful of strong women? Yes. Are there women in the world who are manipulative, and use sex as a weapon? Also yes. But these types hardly represent everyone of either gender - and I do appreciate it when both sexes are represented in any creative medium with a bit of depth and breadth and balance, rather than merely latching on to the nearest available stereotype and running with it.

There are plenty of powerful women in the DA Universe, yes. A good number of powerful men also (Duncan, Loghain, Maric, The Black Divine, most Qunari we've met so far, Bhelen/Harrowmont, Rhys, obviously our protagonists can be male). There are also spiteful/petty/resentful/manipulative characters of both genders (I'm thinking particularly of Jeven in DA2 and Marjolaine in Origins though there are obviously more). A range of characters and personalities of both genders is important, to me at least, and I think Bioware does pretty well in this regard

[The Elder King]

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

I believe that women are treated with a lot more respect in Dragon Age than they are in the Witcher games and books. I like gender equality in this series, even if some whiners like to complain that "It doesn't accurately depict medieval society." Well, I got news for you folks, it's fantasy, not historical fiction.

I'm fine with George R.R. Martin's depiction of a more traditional medieval society inspired by feudal Europe in A Song of Ice and Fire (a series I suspect Dragon Age draws some degree of inspiration from) since at least there are a number of powerful women in the series to make up for it (Daenerys, Brienne of Tarth, Asha Greyjoy, Arya Stark, Melisandre, the Sand Snakes, Cersei bat**** insane though she is, Lady Olenna Tyrell, Ygritte; Sansa Stark, who I suspect is on her way to becoming one of those but I won't say more so as to avoid spoilers).

I don't ever want to see anything as juvenile as sex cards in DA.

I agree with the sex cards (which CDPR said already they'll not come back), but as the treatment of women in TW2 or the books, I don't agree. Both approachs (DA and TW) are fine, if done without being junevile. Since they are fantasy games, which don't have to stick with the medieval treatment of women, you can make the gender equals. But since they are games with a mediaval setting, you can very well make differences in the gender's treaments. If done well, both approachs shouldn't be condemned (though of course the second could be disliked of hated by a part of the gamers, which don't have to be females).
Regardless, in both books and games there are women who are strong, cunning, indipendant, with a central role. They're not merely sexual objects (with the exception of the sex cards feature, which wasn't a great idea, in my opinion.)

Modifié par hhh89, 23 février 2013 - 02:59 .

[fchopin]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

When you look at a character like Isabela, it's very clear why she is in the game, and that is to attract the male audience. Versus Morrigan, who has sex appeal but is clearly not designed to be a sex object.

+1 for this.

[leighzard]

I'm just going to leave this here to provide David Gaider's perpective:
The Female Perspective in Game Development
and his comments on the character development of Isabela, Alistair, and Morrigan who have been mentioned in this thread.

[The Elder King]

fchopin wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

When you look at a character like Isabela, it's very clear why she is in the game, and that is to attract the male audience. Versus Morrigan, who has sex appeal but is clearly not designed to be a sex object.

+1 for this.

Are we talking about their appareance, or what we knew about them before playing DAO and DA2? Because if we're talking about the appareance, my first impression of Morrigan's appareance (from the concept art) and Isabela's appareance wasn't that much different. Morrigan looked exactly as the sexy chick which you were going to hook up. I would describe Morrigan's concept outfit (which is basically the same as her default in-game) as a little bit less ****ty than Isabela.

[Redbelle]

leborum wrote...

I'm just going to leave this here to provide David Gaider's perpective:
The Female Perspective in Game Development
and his comments on the character development of Isabela, Alistair, and Morrigan who have been mentioned in this thread.

Presonally I'm more of a Leilianna fan. She's not an overtly sexual character. She has a wicked side but just talking to her as a character doesn't give the impression that she would jump you at the first opportunity or if fancy took her.

My impression of her is that she has a solid personality and is prepared to tackle anything. Even if in the talk regarding 'my fruit?', she came across as awkward on the subject.

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Xilizhra wrote...

I hardly see how they're forcing views down your throats, given that you don't seem to have even read the article, which doesn't talk about Dragon Age at all. To be sure, women are rather shafted throughout the entirety of the video game industry, and Bioware has made its own mistakes, but they do better than most other companies. Also, sexism doesn't require an active effort, only latent feelings that come out in other things, such as forgetting that women should logically exist in a given world.

The way I see it is the woman who wrote that article is trying to force a change in the gaming industry by falsely claiming that the new alien game having no female marines is a clear indication of how sexist the male driven gaming community is when I see it as just another example of art imitating life, the truth is the ratio of men serving in the armed forces is far greater than that of women serving in the armed forces so I see no problem with the game featuring mostly male marines, there is nothing sexist about it.

[Xilizhra]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I hardly see how they're forcing views down your throats, given that you don't seem to have even read the article, which doesn't talk about Dragon Age at all. To be sure, women are rather shafted throughout the entirety of the video game industry, and Bioware has made its own mistakes, but they do better than most other companies. Also, sexism doesn't require an active effort, only latent feelings that come out in other things, such as forgetting that women should logically exist in a given world.

The way I see it is the woman who wrote that article is trying to force a change in the gaming industry by falsely claiming that the new alien game having no female marines is a clear indication of how sexist the male driven gaming community is when I see it as just another example of art imitating life, the truth is the ratio of men serving in the armed forces is far greater than that of women serving in the armed forces so I see no problem with the game featuring mostly male marines, there is nothing sexist about it.

It's not supposed to be art imitating life, it's supposed to be art imitating other art, namely the Alien series. Which... has quite a few female characters, including a female lead. Which we're approaching IRL in America anyway, as we're now letting women into combat roles.

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Xilizhra wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I hardly see how they're forcing views down your throats, given that you don't seem to have even read the article, which doesn't talk about Dragon Age at all. To be sure, women are rather shafted throughout the entirety of the video game industry, and Bioware has made its own mistakes, but they do better than most other companies. Also, sexism doesn't require an active effort, only latent feelings that come out in other things, such as forgetting that women should logically exist in a given world.

The way I see it is the woman who wrote that article is trying to force a change in the gaming industry by falsely claiming that the new alien game having no female marines is a clear indication of how sexist the male driven gaming community is when I see it as just another example of art imitating life, the truth is the ratio of men serving in the armed forces is far greater than that of women serving in the armed forces so I see no problem with the game featuring mostly male marines, there is nothing sexist about it.

It's not supposed to be art imitating life, it's supposed to be art imitating other art, namely the Alien series. Which... has quite a few female characters, including a female lead. Which we're approaching IRL in America anyway, as we're now letting women into combat roles.

And even though women are being allowed into combat role I think you will still find that the ratio of men serving in the armed forces will still be greater than the number of women. Also I still dont see how female marines are a must in an aliens game even if the movies did feature a few.

[Xilizhra]

And even though women are being allowed into combat role I think you will still find that the ratio of men serving in the armed forces will still be greater than the number of women. Also I still dont see how female marines are a must in an aliens game even if the movies did feature a few.

It's part of the setting. You may as well ask why there should be any aliens in it.

[Sutekh]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

And even though women are being allowed into combat role I think you will still find that the ratio of men serving in the armed forces will still be greater than the number of women. Also I still dont see how female marines are a must in an aliens game even if the movies did feature a few.

Given that Aliens takes place in the future, your comparison with today's ratio is unfounded. And women were central characters in Aliens, not just "featured". Simply put, if the game wants to be faithful to the source material, then there should be women too.

And how this is related in any way to DA is beyond me, given that this particular problem is nowhere to be seen in the franchise.

Modifié par Sutekh, 23 février 2013 - 03:39 .

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Sutekh wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

And even though women are being allowed into combat role I think you will still find that the ratio of men serving in the armed forces will still be greater than the number of women. Also I still dont see how female marines are a must in an aliens game even if the movies did feature a few.

Given that Aliens takes place in the future, your comparison with today's ratio is unfounded. And women were central characters in Aliens, not just "featured". Simply put, if the game wants to be faithful to the source material, then there should be women too.

And Jedi were central characters in the Star Wars movies but as I have already shown it is possible to have a Star Wars game without them.

Modifié par Gandalf-the-Fabulous, 23 février 2013 - 03:44 .

[Sutekh]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

And Jedi were central to the Star Wars movies but as I have already shown it is possible to have a Star Wars game without them.

You can't compare Jedi, who are exceptional beings, to women, who basically make half of the species.

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Sutekh wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

And Jedi were central to the Star Wars movies but as I have already shown it is possible to have a Star Wars game without them.

You can't compare Jedi, who are exceptional beings, to women, who basically make half of the species.

But not half of the people who serve in active combat roles so the comparison is still valid.

[whykikyouwhy]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

And Jedi were central characters in the Star Wars movies but as I have already shown it is possible to have a Star Wars game without them.

The difference is that the games you cited are not Jedi-centric. Star Wars universe, yes, but not focusing on the Jedi order within it.

There are women in the ranks of the colonial marines within the Aliens franchise. Key and central characters, at that. So a game about colonial marines that does not include women is incongruent.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 23 février 2013 - 03:48 .

[iOnlySignIn]

I like strong women. But I am well aware of their rarity in real life. I have no problem indulging in Dragon Age's style of wish-fulfillment fantasy.

Incidentally, I think the "strength" of the women has declined coming from DA:O to DA2:

Anora > Leliana > Meredith > Wynne > Aveline > Morrigan > Tallis > Isabela > Merrill >>> Leandra

Merrill is a sign that the writers have folded and given in to more traditional male expectations of LIs.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 23 février 2013 - 03:57 .

[Sutekh]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

But not half of the people who serve in active combat roles so the comparison is still valid.

Not now. Again, Aliens doesn't take place now.

And I didn't say there should be an equal ratio, but a whole marine squad (or whatever it's called) without any woman in Aliens is giving a false view on Aliens' society and army. I wouldn't expect to see any woman in a Game of Throne army team (or any combat team), because it would be wrong for the same reason, but I certainly expect to see some in an Aliens setting.

[LinksOcarina]

It's funny, but that article mentions Ben Kuchera's work but doesn't go deeper into the data found by Kuchera, which is that games featuring a female protagonist don't sell.

Ironically, games where you have a choice of your protagonists gender (like Dragon Age) tend to review better than a mono-gendered game, but male-only protagonists tend to get larger budgets overall and sell more than other games.

So financially speaking, even though the study done by Kuchera is not conclusive in the least, but it does possibly point to a different trend that is somewhat ingrained in the zeitgeist of both publishers, developers, writers and consumers. Female protagonists are given a fraction of the budget because they historically don't sell, but its a self-fulfilling prophecy, while games with a choice of gender can be lauded critically but also have trouble selling because of the nature of the game.

The safe bet financially is sticking to the male-only protagonist. A sad reality, if the non-scientific experiment by Kuchera is to be believed. Thankfully that is slowly changing, I have a feeling Tomb Raider will shuck most of that by the wayside as we see more female leads in-game. Heck the way Commander Shepard is treated is also a good sign as well.

I kind of want to see BioWare do an experiment and have a female inquisitor in trailers for Dragon Age Inquisition first. See how people react to that. Then show a trailer for a male one down the line, like they did for Shepard. That would be cool.

[w0lfam0da1s]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Sutekh wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

And even though women are being allowed into combat role I think you will still find that the ratio of men serving in the armed forces will still be greater than the number of women. Also I still dont see how female marines are a must in an aliens game even if the movies did feature a few.

Given that Aliens takes place in the future, your comparison with today's ratio is unfounded. And women were central characters in Aliens, not just "featured". Simply put, if the game wants to be faithful to the source material, then there should be women too.

And Jedi were central characters in the Star Wars movies but as I have already shown it is possible to have a Star Wars game without them.

That's not quite true. Jedi wan't the cenrtal characters in the Star Wars movies. It was based on a power strugle and finding the truth and comming to terms with what was done and finding peace with it. The 'Force' was what the movie in general was about. How to use it. Who could use it and what kind of person they became wilding that power.

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

w0lfam0da1s wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Sutekh wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

And even though women are being allowed into combat role I think you will still find that the ratio of men serving in the armed forces will still be greater than the number of women. Also I still dont see how female marines are a must in an aliens game even if the movies did feature a few.

Given that Aliens takes place in the future, your comparison with today's ratio is unfounded. And women were central characters in Aliens, not just "featured". Simply put, if the game wants to be faithful to the source material, then there should be women too.

And Jedi were central characters in the Star Wars movies but as I have already shown it is possible to have a Star Wars game without them.

That's not quite true. Jedi wan't the cenrtal characters in the Star Wars movies. It was based on a power strugle and finding the truth and comming to terms with what was done and finding peace with it. The 'Force' was what the movie in general was about. How to use it. Who could use it and what kind of person they became wilding that power.

And the Alien movies werent about female marines, it was about humanities encounter with a hostile alien species, the gender of those humans is largely irrelevant.

But it seems we are getting off topic, this topic is about the role women play in the Dragon Age series not about Aliens.

Modifié par Gandalf-the-Fabulous, 23 février 2013 - 03:59 .

[Xilizhra]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

I like strong women. But I am well aware of their rarity in real life. I have no problem indulging in Dragon Age's style of wish-fulfillment fantasy.

Incidentally, I think the "strength" of the women has declined coming from DA:O to DA2:

Anora > Leliana > Meredith > Wynne > Aveline > Morrigan > Tallis > Isabela > Merrill >>> Leandra

Merrill is a sign that the writers have folded and given in to more traditional male expectations of LIs.

Meredith is really quite weak; she allowed tragedy to utterly break her. And I'd say that Wynne isn't quite as strong as you've made her out to be... or that Merrill is nearly so weak. Merrill is far too willful to match the wholly traditional LI expectation, though I confess to being disturbed at being able to rivalmance her.

[billy the squid]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

I like strong women. But I am well aware of their rarity in real life. I have no problem indulging in Dragon Age's style of wish-fulfillment fantasy.

Incidentally, I think the "strength" of the women has declined coming from DA:O to DA2:

Anora > Leliana > Meredith > Wynne > Aveline > Morrigan > Tallis > Isabela > Merrill >>> Leandra

Merrill is a sign that the writers have folded and given in to more traditional male expectations of LIs.

So a women can't be meek or shy? They all have to be cold, confident, abrassive or batcrap crazy. Shout It from the hills people! All women characters should be a cows or you're giving into male privilige.

How about, that's the person's particular character, maybe, just putting out that mad, off the wall idea out there. In case it's actually what the writer intended.

[w0lfam0da1s]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

w0lfam0da1s wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Sutekh wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

And even though women are being allowed into combat role I think you will still find that the ratio of men serving in the armed forces will still be greater than the number of women. Also I still dont see how female marines are a must in an aliens game even if the movies did feature a few.

Given that Aliens takes place in the future, your comparison with today's ratio is unfounded. And women were central characters in Aliens, not just "featured". Simply put, if the game wants to be faithful to the source material, then there should be women too.

And Jedi were central characters in the Star Wars movies but as I have already shown it is possible to have a Star Wars game without them.

That's not quite true. Jedi wan't the cenrtal characters in the Star Wars movies. It was based on a power strugle and finding the truth and comming to terms with what was done and finding peace with it. The 'Force' was what the movie in general was about. How to use it. Who could use it and what kind of person they became wilding that power.

And the Alien movies werent about female marines, it was about humanities encounter with a hostile alien species, the gender of those humans is largely irrelevant.

But it seems we are getting off topic, this topic is about the role women play in the Dragon Age series not about Aliens.

It wasn't just about the Aliens. It had alot to do with the females in the story. If it was just about the Aliens then any male could have played that part. Hell it could of been a bunch of men and no females at all. The fact that a woman was the one who not only had to fight the aliens but also fight the men proves that it was also showing a woman in a strong leading role. Something that was at the time lacking in movies. And still is.
Like i said in my first post if you read it. Dragon Age did a good but not perfect job of giving females a more positive powerful role. What we need to see more of in the real world.

[Volus Warlord]

billy the squid wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

I like strong women. But I am well aware of their rarity in real life. I have no problem indulging in Dragon Age's style of wish-fulfillment fantasy.

Incidentally, I think the "strength" of the women has declined coming from DA:O to DA2:

Anora > Leliana > Meredith > Wynne > Aveline > Morrigan > Tallis > Isabela > Merrill >>> Leandra

Merrill is a sign that the writers have folded and given in to more traditional male expectations of LIs.

So a women can't be meek or shy? They all have to be cold, confident, abrassive or batcrap crazy. Shout It from the hills people! All women characters should be a cows or you're giving into male privilige.

How about, that's the person's particular character, maybe, just putting out that mad, off the wall idea out there. In case it's actually what the writer intended.

This is misogynistic. Your argument is invalid.

[NorwegianPirate]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

I like strong women. But I am well aware of their rarity in real life. I have no problem indulging in Dragon Age's style of wish-fulfillment fantasy.

Incidentally, I think the "strength" of the women has declined coming from DA:O to DA2:

Anora > Leliana > Meredith > Wynne > Aveline > Morrigan > Tallis > Isabela > Merrill >>> Leandra

Merrill is a sign that the writers have folded and given in to more traditional male expectations of LIs.

Strong women are not a "rarity" in real life. I don't know how you measure "strength", but Isabela is one tough-as-hell character and so is Merrill. It takes a lot of guts to strike out on your own and do what you think is right despite the disapproval of those who are closest to you.

Modifié par NorwegianPirate, 23 février 2013 - 04:38 .