491 réponses à ce sujet

[Volus Warlord]

w0lfam0da1s wrote...
It wasn't just about the Aliens. It had alot to do with the females in the story. If it was just about the Aliens then any male could have played that part. Hell it could of been a bunch of men and no females at all. The fact that a woman was the one who not only had to fight the aliens but also fight the men proves that it was also showing a woman in a strong leading role. Something that was at the time lacking in movies. And still is. 
Like i said in my first post if you read it. Dragon Age did a good but not perfect job of giving females a more positive powerful role. What we need to see more of in the real world.

I know this sounds crazy, but I don't play video games for a model of what the real world would be like. That'd frankly be pretty crazy. I play them for fun. Rule One is the rule of fun.

So I do not care if the women are in leading commanding roles or silent support roles, as long as the game is an enjoyable experience. Call it what you will.

[Volus Warlord]

NorwegianPirate wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

I like strong women. But I am well aware of their rarity in real life. I have no problem indulging in Dragon Age's style of wish-fulfillment fantasy.

Incidentally, I think the "strength" of the women has declined coming from DA:O to DA2:

Anora > Leliana > Meredith > Wynne > Aveline > Morrigan > Tallis > Isabela > Merrill >>> Leandra

Merrill is a sign that the writers have folded and given in to more traditional male expectations of LIs.

Yeah, bull****.

Strong women are not a "rarity" in real life and Isabela is a tough as hell female character.

What makes one strong? Isabooba did not seem like a strong character to me.

[LinksOcarina]

Volus Warlord wrote...

NorwegianPirate wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

I like strong women. But I am well aware of their rarity in real life. I have no problem indulging in Dragon Age's style of wish-fulfillment fantasy.

Incidentally, I think the "strength" of the women has declined coming from DA:O to DA2:

Anora > Leliana > Meredith > Wynne > Aveline > Morrigan > Tallis > Isabela > Merrill >>> Leandra

Merrill is a sign that the writers have folded and given in to more traditional male expectations of LIs.

Yeah, bull****.

Strong women are not a "rarity" in real life and Isabela is a tough as hell female character.

What makes one strong? Isabooba did not seem like a strong character to me.

Well if you stop looking at her midriff you might see it.

But to each their own I guess. In the end who gives a damn how you percieve things from what they actually are? 

Oh wait...

[Volus Warlord]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Well if you stop looking at her midriff you might see it.

But to each their own I guess. In the end who gives a damn how you percieve things from what they actually are? 

Oh wait...

Well, it's hard to resist the urge sometimes. 

But on a more serious note, I really didn't view Isabella as a strong character. Everything about her seemed like a brutal overcompensation for her background. 

Modifié par Volus Warlord, 23 février 2013 - 04:20 .

[LinksOcarina]

Volus Warlord wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Well if you stop looking at her midriff you might see it.

But to each their own I guess. In the end who gives a damn how you percieve things from what they actually are? 

Oh wait...

Well, it's hard to resist the urge sometimes. 

But on a more serious note, I really didn't view Isabella as a strong character. Everything about her seemed like a brutal overcompensation for her background. 

To be honest, I never saw that about her. I never saw overcompensation for the way she was. In many ways she was the female version of Zevran, contempt with sex but pretty much given up on love because of her past. 

So she is supposed to ooze sex, but she is also capable as a fighter and warm as a person. The banter between her and Aveline is one of blossomed friendship that is so damn beautiful to me. 

I guess to each their own. 

[Xilizhra]

I know this sounds crazy, but I don't play video games for a model of what the real world would be like. That'd frankly be pretty crazy. I play them for fun. Rule One is the rule of fun.

So I do not care if the women are in leading commanding roles or silent support roles, as long as the game is an enjoyable experience. Call it what you will.

Then why are you participating in this discussion? If the outcome is irrelevant to you, what stake do you have here?

[w0lfam0da1s]

Volus Warlord wrote...

w0lfam0da1s wrote...
It wasn't just about the Aliens. It had alot to do with the females in the story. If it was just about the Aliens then any male could have played that part. Hell it could of been a bunch of men and no females at all. The fact that a woman was the one who not only had to fight the aliens but also fight the men proves that it was also showing a woman in a strong leading role. Something that was at the time lacking in movies. And still is. 
Like i said in my first post if you read it. Dragon Age did a good but not perfect job of giving females a more positive powerful role. What we need to see more of in the real world.

I know this sounds crazy, but I don't play video games for a model of what the real world would be like. That'd frankly be pretty crazy. I play them for fun. Rule One is the rule of fun.

So I do not care if the women are in leading commanding roles or silent support roles, as long as the game is an enjoyable experience. Call it what you will.

I don't play video game because they star a man or a woman. I play because I like the game.
However if you read my first post and the one's after you would what I was talking about. Several post ago someone had talked about the movie vrs the game Aliens and how the game doen't have females in it. And how not having them takes away from the movie that we came to know and or love. Then somewher along the line someone wrote about Star Wars being about the Jedi and somehow that lead to the Aliens being the most inportant point of that movie. And then leading up to what I said that you quoted me on. However I must say that I like how Dragon Age handled the topic of the females in the game. Showing as close to all sides of  females in a setting we can relate to in the real world. That was my starting out point when I first posted. Just so you know.
So yes I do play if I like the game and fun is what we all are looking for.

[AllThatJazz]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

I like strong women. But I am well aware of their rarity in real life. I have no problem indulging in Dragon Age's style of wish-fulfillment fantasy.

Incidentally, I think the "strength" of the women has declined coming from DA:O to DA2:

Anora > Leliana > Meredith > Wynne > Aveline > Morrigan > Tallis > Isabela > Merrill >>> Leandra

Merrill is a sign that the writers have folded and given in to more traditional male expectations of LIs.

Your list is entirely subjective. Meredith is a morally weak individual in a position of tremendous power (in my opinion, obviously). Being in powerful positions and being strong are not the same thing. She lacks the strength to overcome her own prejudices, and is driven insane by the idol (the only other example of this is Bartrand who is also weak-minded). I would put both Aveline and Merrill above Meredith in terms of strength. Merrill never caves in. She pursues her goal relentlessly, even though she is reviled by her clan and ignored by the City Elves. She knowingly seeks the advice and cooperation of demons, but does not turn into an abomination. Misguided she may well be (according to one's pov), but definitely neither weak nor traditional.

[NorwegianPirate]

Volus Warlord wrote...

What makes one strong? Isabooba did not seem like a strong character to me.

Well. She is bold and witty, she owns who she is and her own sexuality and makes no excuses for either. She cares deeply about her friends and is probably one of the least judgmental characters in the group, and she's also a very capable fighter.

[Darth Krytie]

I call privilege on just about everyone here who say it doesn't matter whether there are women (strong or otherwise) in gaming. Mostly, because it's easy to say it doesn't matter if your group isn't the one being ignored. What the hell does a dudebro care if there are no women in their games if they're a dudebro? Women like me, however, would like more games where there are women in decent roles. I don't want to see sexism shoved in my face during my free hobby time.

It's just so frustrating to see that sentiment over and over again. "Why does it matter if it's a good game?" Because it does matter. Because most of these games would still be good games with women in it. Because I wonder if people would be so cavalier about it if women were dominant in video games and dudes were rare...would men be cool with being ignored in these medium if they were hardly ever represent and, when they were, hardly ever represented well?

It is an industry wide problem and John Elper tweets about it frequently.

The main reason I really enjoy Dragon Age (and Mass Effect) is because I basically know that when I play it, I won't be irritated by either the lack of women or the poor representation of them. Even the women in BW games that are sexual in nature or do, indeed, look like sex objects always have more going on with their characters.

[w0lfam0da1s]

NorwegianPirate wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

What makes one strong? Isabooba did not seem like a strong character to me.

Well. She is bold and witty, she owns who she is and her own sexuality and makes no excuses for either. She cares deeply about her friends and is probably one of the least judgmental characters in the group, and she's also a very capable fighter.

That's a very good point. Sometimes you have to open the book and read what's inside to truly know what it is about.
However most don't look past the cover. That's a sad sad thing beause you may just miss a good thing.

[ReallyRue]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

I like strong women. But I am well aware of their rarity in real life. I have no problem indulging in Dragon Age's style of wish-fulfillment fantasy.

Incidentally, I think the "strength" of the women has declined coming from DA:O to DA2:

Anora > Leliana > Meredith > Wynne > Aveline > Morrigan > Tallis > Isabela > Merrill >>> Leandra

Merrill is a sign that the writers have folded and given in to more traditional male expectations of LIs.

What on earth are you basing this list on? Combat ability - obviously not because Anora wouldn't be at the top. Independence - obviously not or Isabela wouldn't rate so low. Determination - Merrill has that in spades. Mental and emotional resilience - I doubt if Meredith's had either of those for a long time. Tomboyishness or coldness - not if Leliana is the second best example of a strong woman in the series.

All these women are strong in different ways. I doubt it's even possible to rank them like this without overlooking deeper aspects of their character. It's as illogical as asking which of the male characters is the 'stongest'. Even Leandra has strength - she ran away from her noble life for her convictions, lived as a peasant and protected her child(ren) from templars for years. She's also the one who decides the family goes to Kirkwall, where almost the entire game takes place.

[chuckles471]

I just find it funny that one of the links at the bottom is "The 20 Hottest Daughters From The Sports World". How unfortunate.

[RedArmyShogun]

The role of women in the Dragon Age series

Is to be in ye'ole Kitchen.


I'm honestly surprised no one has said that yet!

[AllThatJazz]

w0lfam0da1s wrote...

NorwegianPirate wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

What makes one strong? Isabooba did not seem like a strong character to me.

Well. She is bold and witty, she owns who she is and her own sexuality and makes no excuses for either. She cares deeply about her friends and is probably one of the least judgmental characters in the group, and she's also a very capable fighter.

That's a very good point. Sometimes you have to open the book and read what's inside to truly know what it is about.
However most don't look past the cover. That's a sad sad thing beause you may just miss a good thing.

Indeed. I've been surprised by how much I like Isabela during my most recent DA2 playthrough. In fact, both she and Merrill have really grown on me recently. That's a thing I realldy do enjoy about the companions in Bioware games - different 'main' teams and combinations of companions can make for nicely different playthroughs

[w0lfam0da1s]

Darth Krytie wrote...

I call privilege on just about everyone here who say it doesn't matter whether there are women (strong or otherwise) in gaming. Mostly, because it's easy to say it doesn't matter if your group isn't the one being ignored. What the hell does a dudebro care if there are no women in their games if they're a dudebro? Women like me, however, would like more games where there are women in decent roles. I don't want to see sexism shoved in my face during my free hobby time.

It's just so frustrating to see that sentiment over and over again. "Why does it matter if it's a good game?" Because it does matter. Because most of these games would still be good games with women in it. Because I wonder if people would be so cavalier about it if women were dominant in video games and dudes were rare...would men be cool with being ignored in these medium if they were hardly ever represent and, when they were, hardly ever represented well?

It is an industry wide problem and John Elper tweets about it frequently.

The main reason I really enjoy Dragon Age (and Mass Effect) is because I basically know that when I play it, I won't be irritated by either the lack of women or the poor representation of them. Even the women in BW games that are sexual in nature or do, indeed, look like sex objects always have more going on with their characters.

Wow. Truer words were never spoken.
As a man my self I can honestly say that we would have a **** fit if something like that happened. Would we play the games. Well that depends on how the female looked for the most part. Or at least for most of the men we go by what the female looks like.
Something I'm trying to teach my daughter is you don't have to be a sexual object to be important to anyone along with other things. And somehow I probly got off the subject again.

[TheBlackAdder13]

Iansectcrusher wrote...

TheBlackAdder13 wrote...

Oh for $%#$'s sake, no one, at any point, in this thread or in the article, has said that DA has this problem with women, in fact we've all said the exact opposite. So knock the strawman argument off. It's irritating and I'm becoming more and more irate each time I see someone make a post claiming that's what people are saying when there hasn't been as much as one post stating that DA has issues writing women. 

It's in the dragon age forum, so it's at least implied.

What? I think you need to do a reading comprehension check. The OP obviously doesn't agree with the assessment that female characters mishandled in Dragon Age and no one else has made any sort of statement that direclty  or indirectly implies otherwise. Instead people are pulling this idiocy out of thin air to make it look like ZOMG THE FEMINSITS ARE OUT TO TAKE OVER DRAGON AGE THEY MUST BE STOPPED ZOMG! 

This place makes me want to bang my head against the wall sometimes. 

[AllThatJazz]

Darth Krytie wrote...

I call privilege on just about everyone here who say it doesn't matter whether there are women (strong or otherwise) in gaming. Mostly, because it's easy to say it doesn't matter if your group isn't the one being ignored. What the hell does a dudebro care if there are no women in their games if they're a dudebro? Women like me, however, would like more games where there are women in decent roles. I don't want to see sexism shoved in my face during my free hobby time.

It's just so frustrating to see that sentiment over and over again. "Why does it matter if it's a good game?" Because it does matter. Because most of these games would still be good games with women in it. Because I wonder if people would be so cavalier about it if women were dominant in video games and dudes were rare...would men be cool with being ignored in these medium if they were hardly ever represent and, when they were, hardly ever represented well?

It is an industry wide problem and John Elper tweets about it frequently.

The main reason I really enjoy Dragon Age (and Mass Effect) is because I basically know that when I play it, I won't be irritated by either the lack of women or the poor representation of them. Even the women in BW games that are sexual in nature or do, indeed, look like sex objects always have more going on with their characters.

Absolutely. Really spot on.

[wright1978]

NorwegianPirate wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

What makes one strong? Isabooba did not seem like a strong character to me.

Well. She is bold and witty, she owns who she is and her own sexuality and makes no excuses for either. She cares deeply about her friends and is probably one of the least judgmental characters in the group, and she's also a very capable fighter.

Yeah Isabela is a strong character imo. Definitely my favourite character in DA2 and not because of the cut of her dress.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

You know I wouldn't hold DA2 as a shinning example of how women are portrayed in gaming, all the women in DA2 are helpless, morons, promiscuous or insane, the only decent character is Aveline really, and even at that there are times when she comes across as boyish.

[Darth Krytie]

DinoSteve wrote...

You know I wouldn't hold DA2 as a shinning example of how women are portrayed in gaming, all the women in DA2 are helpless, morons, promiscuous or insane, the only decent character is Aveline really, and even at that there are times when she comes across as boyish.

I disagree. Women in DA2 are portrayed as complex, real people. Who have different personalities and careers and passions. Like real people. Just like how sometimes men are in all those different types of roles in games. I don't need women to be perfect in my games. I don't need them to be a bastion of virture or the baddest bad ass ever. I need them to be people. In DA2, they were.

Aveline was excellent because there are women out there who don't follow the stereotypical feminine roles--shocker--and who are tough and don't care about shoes. I should know. I am one.

[billy the squid]

Darth Krytie wrote...

I call privilege on just about everyone here who say it doesn't matter whether there are women (strong or otherwise) in gaming. Mostly, because it's easy to say it doesn't matter if your group isn't the one being ignored. What the hell does a dudebro care if there are no women in their games if they're a dudebro? Women like me, however, would like more games where there are women in decent roles. I don't want to see sexism shoved in my face during my free hobby time.

It's just so frustrating to see that sentiment over and over again. "Why does it matter if it's a good game?" Because it does matter. Because most of these games would still be good games with women in it. Because I wonder if people would be so cavalier about it if women were dominant in video games and dudes were rare...would men be cool with being ignored in these medium if they were hardly ever represent and, when they were, hardly ever represented well?

It is an industry wide problem and John Elper tweets about it frequently.

The main reason I really enjoy Dragon Age (and Mass Effect) is because I basically know that when I play it, I won't be irritated by either the lack of women or the poor representation of them. Even the women in BW games that are sexual in nature or do, indeed, look like sex objects always have more going on with their characters.

And I call bull crap on most of the "oh it's sexist" rubbish I read around here. Potato, potato. It matters because it does? Yep an argument, which is as compelling as it comes. And no, games will not be good games if you just stick a woman in it so everyone can feel progressive. It's good if it makes sense, a well witten charcater, fits with the world it's set in etc. other than that you shouldn't give a damn, woman, man meh.

Now, Tomb Raider? One of the most succesful franchises in the gaming world... you know the one which is male dominated and yet we still pick up that game and play it in our millions. yeah, I'm not seeing you point on that front. That game will succeed or fail on it's merits as a game, not because it has a woman in it.

It's a fact of life, that yes there are a lot of men playing games, so they tend to be marketed to the largest possible market, that's not sexism, it's commercial good sense. Not to say that games can't be a success with a female protagonist, they are. Just try convincing the marketing board that they'd be able to sell a new franchise like that, there's your challenge. 

Modifié par billy the squid, 23 février 2013 - 05:20 .

[Xilizhra]

And I call bull crap on most of the "oh it's sexist" rubbish I read around here. Potato, potato. It matters because it does? Yep an argument, which is as compelling as it comes. And no, games will not be good games if you just stick a woman in it so everyone can feel progressive. It's good if it makes sense, a well witten charcater, fits with the world it's set in etc. other than that you shouldn't give a damn.

The point is that, since you're already used to having your demographic be dominant in video games, it's literally unthinkable to you to imagine a situation where it wasn't. Even if there was one wholly-female game, it would matter less to you because of the overwhelming majority of wholly-male games elsewhere. In any case, it's true that it takes more than just having strong female characters for a game to be good, but it's a component of them being good in many cases, and will please almost everyone.

Now, Tomb Raider? One of the most succesful franchises in the gaming world... you know the one which is male dominated and yet we still pick up that game and play it in our millions. yeah, I'm not seeing you point on that front. That game will suceed or fail on it's merits as a game, not because it has a woman in it.

Which means that there should be no reason at all...

It's a fact of life, that yes there are a lot of men playing games, so they tend to be marketed to the largest possible market, that's not sexism, it's commercial good sense.

To do this. Which is, in fact, the point of the article. Do try to remain consistent; if Tomb Raider will indeed succeed or fail only on its own merits, then there should be no reason at all to not allow for more gender equality in future games. And if the marketing boards can't see that, perhaps we should get new boards.

[LinksOcarina]

billy the squid wrote...

And I call bull crap on most of the "oh it's sexist" rubbish I read around here. Potato, potato. It matters because it does? Yep an argument, which is as compelling as it comes. And no, games will not be good games if you just stick a woman in it so everyone can feel progressive. It's good if it makes sense, a well witten charcater, fits with the world it's set in etc. other than that you shouldn't give a damn.

Now, Tomb Raider? One of the most succesful franchises in the gaming world... you know the one which is male dominated and yet we still pick up that game and play it in our millions. yeah, I'm not seeing you point on that front. That game will suceed or fail on it's merits as a game, not because it has a woman in it.

It's a fact of life, that yes there are a lot of men playing games, so they tend to be marketed to the largest possible market, that's not sexism, it's commercial good sense. Not to say that games can't be a success with a female protagonist, they are. Just try convincing the marketing board that they'd be able to sell a new franchise like that, there's your challenge. 

I agree, but the market is changing, as are the demographics found within it. It is only a matter of time until we see an influx of female leads become just as prominant as male leads. Whether or not they succeed is another story. 

And making sense or not is not really the issue. The tabletop market is suffering an image problem thats much worse. The current playtesting for DnD got some flak when they showed off possible art assets and people called them out for being sexist...only to reply that they didn't know it was sexist to include art assets they enjoyed looking at. 

The market is changing all the time, and recognizing the changes is the only way to really hit home for different demographics. Dragon Age can be considered a leader in this for how it portrays pretty much everything from women to sex to sexuality. Other  games are following the same route to varying degrees. 

[Darth Krytie]

billy the squid wrote...


And I call bull crap on most of the "oh it's sexist" rubbish I read around here. Potato, potato. It matters because it does? Yep an argument, which is as compelling as it comes. And no, games will not be good games if you just stick a woman in it so everyone can feel progressive. It's good if it makes sense, a well witten charcater, fits with the world it's set in etc. other than that you shouldn't give a damn, woman, man meh.

Now, Tomb Raider? One of the most succesful franchises in the gaming world... you know the one which is male dominated and yet we still pick up that game and play it in our millions. yeah, I'm not seeing you point on that front. That game will succeed or fail on it's merits as a game, not because it has a woman in it.

It's a fact of life, that yes there are a lot of men playing games, so they tend to be marketed to the largest possible market, that's not sexism, it's commercial good sense. Not to say that games can't be a success with a female protagonist, they are. Just try convincing the marketing board that they'd be able to sell a new franchise like that, there's your challenge. 

And thus, you just prove my point. If you think I'm asking for games to just stick a women in there just to be progressive, you're missing the point entirely. The point is, women shouldn't be an after thought. It shouldn't be about progressiveness. It should be a default assumption to have women in well-rounded roles in games because we are people, too.

And it is sexism on so many different scales that women as protags are deemed unmarketable. It is sexist if you're telling me that women wouldn't sell as protags because men wouldn't buy it. Why does it matter if it's a good game? If it's a good game, a woman protag is irrelevant...right?

Modifié par Darth Krytie, 23 février 2013 - 05:25 .