491 réponses à ce sujet

[CuriousArtemis]

Dragon Age gets an A- from me in regards to women and depictions of women. Keep in mind I'm a tough grader

Women seldom fulfill "to-be-looked-at" roles, and when they do, it is in character, and the character may be using her sexuality as play for power (Isabela); also, the player's viewpoint is not purposefully drawn towards the female character in a sexual way (think: ME3's Miranda versus our introduction to Isabela).

A variety of female characters are presented: women in power, women who are gender deviants, women who are heroes. The player can opt to play as a woman.

Negatives (reason for the minus in "A-") include the female player character's and NPCs' bizarre stance and walk; "boob" and naked torso armor, chiefly from DA:O; and gendered NPC costumes (fixed nicely in MOTA, which presents Tallis and FemHawke in pants). I also have a slight problem with Aveline, who appears to be "performing" as male, rather than simply being a woman who is a soldier. But I give this a pass because this mostly stems from Isabela's banter towards Aveline.

Yay, DA Team!

Modifié par motomotogirl, 23 février 2013 - 07:39 .

[cJohnOne]

I use to think what do I care. I like hot women. But now I'm suppose to care more about the integity of the characters. Just putting out a male perspective here. Anyone else use to have these views?

[Redbelle]

cJohnOne wrote...

I use to think what do I care. I like hot women. But now I'm suppose to care more about the integity of the characters. Just putting out a male perspective here. Anyone else use to have these views?

Character appearence's are usually vetted before going into the game, from how they look to what they wear. Aspect's that ultimately contribute to what the character is and behave's. (Ca anyone see Morrigan in a ball gown? Anybody? No? How about Hawke in a cub scount uniform with shorts)?

This is something that both male and female character's go through. And to date I can't think of an intentionally designed ugly character in a high end of the market game.

Just saying that it is no surprise that, before these character's are given wireframe's, they are sketched out to be attractive. These character's are supposed to be hero's to varying degree's and drawing hero's immediately render's the subject a certain way from chisel jaw's to high cheekbone's to the perfect..... nose? (Roman, Greek, aquline snub etc etc), and beyond.

Still, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Modifié par Redbelle, 23 février 2013 - 08:11 .

[The Six Path of Pain]

Every time I think of a badass female video game character the first ones that always pop into my mind are Tifa Lockhart and Claire"Lightning"Farron
Honorable mention Terra Branford not a badass per say but still a good female protagonist

[The Hierophant]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Your attitude and ridiculous strawman argument make it clear that you're only posting this to be reactionary. Have you even read the article you want us to discuss? Because I have, and at no point does the author state that male developers are afraid of "strong women".

The fact that the developers of an Aliens game didn't think to include women from the word go is very concerning. The protagonist of the movie franchise is female, and there are several other prominent female characters in it. It's inconceivable that the developers would just "forget" that women exist in the Aliens universe, if they were truly fans of the franchise. I do not think it's wrong to say that this incident is indicative of a wider problem in videogame culture.

This is not just an issue that affects women. Sexual and ethnic minorities are also terribly underrrepresented in videogames and media generally.

While i agree that this seems a troll topic, the bolded interests me.

What is underrepresented? If only 10% of the world's population are [racial/ethnic group], why should there be more than one in ten of them?

IIRC Indian, & Chinese people made up around 17% & 20% of the world population, respectively. Americans made up around 4%, and Europeans were around 11-12%. 

[TheBlackAdder13]

Negatives (reason for the minus in "A-") include the female player character's and NPCs' bizarre stance and walk; "boob" and naked torso armor, chiefly from DA:O; and gendered NPC costumes (fixed nicely in MOTA, which presents Tallis and FemHawke in pants).

But what if you want to RP a conventionally feminine character who likes wearing dresses and such? I've seen more than a few female posters complain about the unisex clothing from the Hawke Estate and MOTA, stating their desire for more gendered clothing.

I also have a slight problem with Aveline, who appears to be "performing" as male, rather than simply being a woman who is a soldier. But I give this a pass because this mostly stems from Isabela's banter towards Aveline.

What's wrong with Aveline performing as a male or displaying stereotypically masculine traits? It was a good character concept for her. Otherwise she wouldn't be Aveline.

Modifié par TheBlackAdder13, 23 février 2013 - 08:50 .

[TheBlackAdder13]

What is underrepresented? If only 10% of the world's population are [racial/ethnic group], why should there be more than one in ten of them?

...well ethnicity aside, women make up roughly 51% of the population so you can't justify exclusion by gender with that logic.

Also, give me an ethnicity that only comprises 10% of the global population. You do realize that white people are only predominant in North America and Europe, right? Your odd notion that non white ethnic groups comprise such a small percentage of the world's population seems very uh...off base from reality and sheltered to put it politely.

Hell, even if there was a racial group that only comprises 10% of the world's population, they're STILL probably not even representative of 10% of the video game "population." So there's that too, which is even further highlighted by the fact that said minorities are much larger than 10% of the population. Your post is... bizarre. o_0

Modifié par TheBlackAdder13, 23 février 2013 - 08:50 .

[jillabender]

The Hierophant wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Your attitude and ridiculous strawman argument make it clear that you're only posting this to be reactionary. Have you even read the article you want us to discuss? Because I have, and at no point does the author state that male developers are afraid of "strong women".

The fact that the developers of an Aliens game didn't think to include women from the word go is very concerning. The protagonist of the movie franchise is female, and there are several other prominent female characters in it. It's inconceivable that the developers would just "forget" that women exist in the Aliens universe, if they were truly fans of the franchise. I do not think it's wrong to say that this incident is indicative of a wider problem in videogame culture.

This is not just an issue that affects women. Sexual and ethnic minorities are also terribly underrrepresented in videogames and media generally.

While i agree that this seems a troll topic, the bolded interests me.

What is underrepresented? If only 10% of the world's population are [racial/ethnic group], why should there be more than one in ten of them?

IIRC Indian, & Chinese people made up around 17% & 20% of the world population, respectively. Americans made up around 4%, and Europeans were around 11-12%.

TheBlackAdder13 wrote...

...well ethnicity aside, women make up roughly 51% of the population so you can't justify exclusion by gender with that logic.

Also, give me an ethnicity that only comprises 10% of the global population. You do realize that white people are only predominant in North America and Europe, right? Your odd notion that non white ethnic groups comprise such a small percentage of the world's population seems very uh...off base from reality and sheltered to put it politely.

Hell, even if there was a racial group that only comprises 10% of the world's population, they're STILL probably not even representative of 10% of  the video game "population." So there's that too, which is even further highlighted by the fact that said minorities are much larger than 10% of the population. Your post is... bizarre. o_0

That is a very good point - even if we were to accept the idea that statistical realism is more important than inclusion, it's quite statistically unrealistic for the vast majority of characters in most games to be white, at least in many settings!

Modifié par jillabender, 23 février 2013 - 11:40 .

[Fredward]

Eh. Hardly applicable to Bioware at least.

[Lennard Testarossa]

jillabender wrote...
That is a very good point - even if we were to accept the idea that statistical realism is more important than inclusion, it's quite statistically unrealistic for the vast majority of characters in most games to be white, at least in most settings!

What exactly do you mean by "most settings"? Most video games are made in Europe, USA or Japan. The vast majority of Fantasy settings of games made outside of Japan are based on medieval Europe. It is very "realistic" for the vast majority of characters in these games to be white, just like it was very "realistic" for characters in Jade Empire to be Asian.

[Swoopdogg]

 Wouldn't it be great if we could look at all the male and female companions equally? Instead of labeling any of them as "the female" or what have you. Isabela was the dirty one in DA2, just like Zev was the dirty one in Origins. Morrigan was the smart one in Origins, Anders was the smart one in DA2 (but lacking common sense). Their genders don't really define them, at least not in my eyes, their personalities define them.

Also if you play as a female Hawke, you get a pretty strong female role there. And besides that there's Aveline, who's strong in many ways.

[imbs]

Such a dangerous line of thought this. Why should anyone deliberately aim for socially correct gender/ethnic ratios? Who honestly cares? Art (including video games) is not a democracy and doesn't have to be politically correct. honestly recent Bioware games give me the impression they care more about how politically enlightened they look than how good the games they make actually are.

[LinksOcarina]

EntropicAngel wrote...

imbs wrote...

Such a dangerous line of thought this. Why should anyone deliberately aim for socially correct gender/ethnic ratios? Who honestly cares? Art (including video games) is not a democracy and doesn't have to be politically correct. honestly recent Bioware games give me the impression they care more about how politically enlightened they look than how good the games they make actually are.

it's the way of the world today, growing ever more so.

And its a welcome change as well, I would add.

Stereotypes work if in moderation. Look at Jar Jar Binks from Star Wars; people assumed he was a stereotype like Steppin Fetchit, but how many of us have seen what that actually is or was?

But its so culturally ingrained, we just recognize it as such, and because of negative connoations it is looked down upon. Binks was to the extreme of excess, which is partially the reason hes so reviled. The world is getting to the point of cultural interdiffusion, where we are connected and need to be mindful of stereotypes, traditions, cultures and creeds. Use them, but not to the extreme basically, which is someting BioWare has been mindful for without being whitewashed about it.

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 23 février 2013 - 09:46 .

[jillabender]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

jillabender wrote...
That is a very good point - even if we were to accept the idea that statistical realism is more important than inclusion, it's quite statistically unrealistic for the vast majority of characters in most games to be white, at least in most settings!

What exactly do you mean by "most settings"? Most video games are made in Europe, USA or Japan. The vast majority of Fantasy settings of games made outside of Japan are based on medieval Europe. It is very "realistic" for the vast majority of characters in these games to be white, just like it was very "realistic" for characters in Jade Empire to be Asian.

Actually, I'm led to believe, by people who know more about European history than I do, that medieval Europe wasn't quite as uniformly white as many people tend to think.

For that matter, Europe and the U.S. as a whole are far more ethnically diverse today than the casts of most video games.

In any case, I would love to see more variety in terms of game settings, and more games with ethnically varied casts.

Modifié par jillabender, 24 février 2013 - 07:29 .

[Zkyire]

Plaintiff wrote...

Your attitude and ridiculous strawman argument make it clear that you're only posting this to be reactionary. Have you even read the article you want us to discuss? Because I have, and at no point does the author state that male developers are afraid of "strong women".

The fact that the developers of an Aliens game didn't think to include women from the word go is very concerning. The protagonist of the movie franchise is female, and there are several other prominent female characters in it. It's inconceivable that the developers would just "forget" that women exist in the Aliens universe, if they were truly fans of the franchise. I do not think it's wrong to say that this incident is indicative of a wider problem in videogame culture.

This is not just an issue that affects women. Sexual and ethnic minorities are also terribly underrrepresented in videogames and media generally.

Seriously, what kind of ridiculous logic is that?

White people are terribly underrepresented in video games and media in
South Asia, East Asia, Middle East, North Africa, Sub-Saharan Africa.


The media caters to its primary demographic. In Western nations, that's white people.

If you really cared about "representation"; complain about other countries too.

Otherwise you're just whining about white people. But I guess that's okay?

Bloody hell.

Modifié par Zkyire, 23 février 2013 - 10:16 .

[LinksOcarina]

EntropicAngel wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

And its a welcome change as well, I would add.

Stereotypes work if in moderation. Look at Jar Jar Binks from Star Wars; people assumed he was a stereotype like Steppin Fetchit, but how many of us have seen what that actually is or was?

But its so culturally ingrained, we just recognize it as such, and because of negative connoations it is looked down upon. Binks was to the extreme of excess, which is partially the reason hes so reviled. The world is getting to the point of cultural interdiffusion, where we are connected and need to be mindful of stereotypes, traditions, cultures and creeds. Use them, but not to the extreme basically, which is someting BioWare has been mindful for without being whitewashed about it.

I would disagree, though i've never seen Star Wars (any of them) so i don't understand your point about him.

There's a difference between being politically correct and simply not being offensive. or their inverse, being politically incorrect and being offensive.

An example of a pilitically incorrect statement I love to say here (because it's true): Remember, black people in Thedas aren't like black people IRL!

That isn't an offensive statement, because it supposes nothing about either group, and it also happens to be true. Yet people get upset over it because it doesn't fit this politically correct...system.

I agree. That is an example of what I am basically talking about. 

[iOnlySignIn]

ReallyRue wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

I like strong women. But I am well aware of their rarity in real life. I have no problem indulging in Dragon Age's style of wish-fulfillment fantasy.

Incidentally, I think the "strength" of the women has declined coming from DA:O to DA2:

Anora > Leliana > Meredith > Wynne > Aveline > Morrigan > Tallis > Isabela > Merrill >>> Leandra

Merrill is a sign that the writers have folded and given in to more traditional male expectations of LIs.

What on earth are you basing this list on? 

How difficult it is to break them using any means possible.

Xilizhra wrote...

Meredith is really quite weak; she allowed tragedy to utterly break her. 

The idol broke her. Her family tragedy merely motivated her to greatness. I wish I could be so motivated.

billy the squid wrote...

So a women can't be meek or shy? 

They can be. But that's just a nice way of saying "having no effect or motivation".

NorwegianPirate wrote...

Isabela is one tough-as-hell character and so is Merrill. 

On the contrary. Isabela is severely brain damaged from alcohol and syphilis. Merrill is the archetypical idiot hero even without any brain damage.

NorwegianPirate wrote...

It takes a lot of guts to strike out on your own and do what you think is right despite the disapproval of those who are closest to you.

Well then everyone in DA2 is tough-as-hell because this is what the Friendship-Rivalry system is about.

AllThatJazz wrote...

Meredith is a morally weak individual

Morality is a sad illusion.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 23 février 2013 - 10:31 .

[LinksOcarina]

EntropicAngel wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

I agree. That is an example of what I am basically talking about. 

But the change isn't resulting in no offence. It's resulting in a completely colorless (not referring to race here) world where even making reference to race becomes racism.

I don't know about that. I think if anything people are too afraid to be called a racist over anything else. That is just showing tolerance vs acceptance, which is a huge difference.

Acceptance is much more widespread though, and long lasting, especially if people are willing to not worry about comments that can be percieved as racist. EA's policies for sexual orientation as an  example are emblematic of acceptance; they are the only game company out there that is openly against the Defense of Marriage Act and  joined the HRC to show support against it. 

It really depends I guess. I am a tad more optimistic that people are more accepting than ten years ago. 

[imbs]

call a fat white person fat and you are rude, call a fat black person fat and you are a racist. Thats just how it goes. Whilst racism/feminism shouldn't be ignored, it is so overblown these days that it becomes irritating to read about. What's worse is now idiots harp on about reverse-racism as well. Just give it a rest already i m o

Modifié par imbs, 23 février 2013 - 10:34 .

[LinksOcarina]

EntropicAngel wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

I don't know about that. I think if anything people are too afraid to be called a racist over anything else. That is just showing tolerance vs acceptance, which is a huge difference.

Acceptance is much more widespread though, and long lasting, especially if people are willing to not worry about comments that can be percieved as racist. EA's policies for sexual orientation as an  example are emblematic of acceptance; they are the only game company out there that is openly against the Defense of Marriage Act and  joined the HRC to show support against it. 

It really depends I guess. I am a tad more optimistic that people are more accepting than ten years ago. 

Morality is a whole 'nother issue.


I didn't know they did that. Hmm. Guess I shouldn't be too annoyed at Chick-Fil-A for making a political/moral statement, then.

It is, but morality is tied to perception in this one a bit. 

And yeah, EA did do that. Corporations make political statements all the time regarding issues of morality or finances and what not. Technically they are allowed to, and in this case I am kind of glad EA made a stand on such an issue, but that is personal bias on my part.