491 réponses à ce sujet

[jillabender]

EntropicAngel wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

I don't know about that. I think if anything people are too afraid to be called a racist over anything else. That is just showing tolerance vs acceptance, which is a huge difference.

Acceptance is much more widespread though, and long lasting, especially if people are willing to not worry about comments that can be percieved as racist. EA's policies for sexual orientation as an  example are emblematic of acceptance; they are the only game company out there that is openly against the Defense of Marriage Act and  joined the HRC to show support against it. 

It really depends I guess. I am a tad more optimistic that people are more accepting than ten years ago. 

Morality is a whole 'nother issue.


I didn't know they did that. Hmm. Guess I shouldn't be too annoyed at Chick-Fil-A for making a political/moral statement, then.

Well, you certainly have every right to express your annoyance or disagreement with the particular statement that Chick-Fil-A are making, especially if you believe that they're taking a position that's hurting people. They've made their position public, so there's no reason it shoudn't be criticized publicly.

Modifié par jillabender, 23 février 2013 - 10:44 .

[LinksOcarina]

EntropicAngel wrote...

imbs wrote...

call a fat white person fat and you are rude, call a fat black person fat and you are a racist. Thats just how it goes. Whilst racism/feminism shouldn't be ignored, it is so overblown these days that it becomes irritating to read about. What's worse is now idiots harp on about reverse-racism as well. Just give it a rest already i m o

Those idiots harping about reverse racism are the only ones giving the system balance.


@Link I don't really understand what you mean by "mroality is tied to perception."

Well, if I said the N word out loud, am I being a good person by saying it?

If I said the word within context of say a historical document, or a movie title (which there are some that have it in a title) is it the same thing as blurting it out loud?

The context can help shape perception, but morally speaking, is the N word even good to say if in context?

[Zkyire]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Well, if I said the N word out loud, am I being a good person by saying it?

If I said the word within context of say a historical document, or a movie title (which there are some that have it in a title) is it the same thing as blurting it out loud?

The context can help shape perception, but morally speaking, is the N word even good to say if in context?

Watch this please.

Modifié par Zkyire, 23 février 2013 - 10:52 .

[jillabender]

Just to clarify my earlier comments, what I was trying to convey was that some people are in the position of being able to take for granted that they'll see their gender, ethnic group, or sexual orientation represented in media like video games, while other people aren't. And that is a situation of inequality, even if it's not necessarily the result of conscious discrimination.

I completely agree that one shouldn't expect any game developer to fulfill quotas for representation - obviously, it can't be the responsibility of any game developer to make absolutely certain that every group is represented, because no game developer has the resources to do that. But with respect, I don't think that's what anyone is actually asking for.

All that many people seem to be saying is that it's worthwhile for a game developer to try to achieve greater inclusion if they're in a position to do so - and that exclusion often happens in situations where it makes little sense (for example, when the developers of the Aliens game had to be asked to include female marines), simply because it's seen by many people as normal.

In short, I think it's entirely fair for people who have been less often represented in media to say that they would like to see more inclusion, and I think it would be very unfair to paint all the people who are asking for that as unreasonable.

Modifié par jillabender, 24 février 2013 - 02:51 .

[LinksOcarina]

Zkyire wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Well, if I said the N word out loud, am I being a good person by saying it?

If I said the word within context of say a historical document, or a movie title (which there are some that have it in a title) is it the same thing as blurting it out loud?

The context can help shape perception, but morally speaking, is the N word even good to say if in context?

Watch this please.

So?

[LinksOcarina]

EntropicAngel wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Well, if I said the N word out loud, am I being a good person by saying it?

If I said the word within context of say a historical document, or a movie title (which there are some that have it in a title) is it the same thing as blurting it out loud?

The context can help shape perception, but morally speaking, is the N word even good to say if in context?

Suppose you're with some black friends who use the word among themselves, with you, freely?

This is why its tied to morality. if I said N****r to them it would be percieved as bad. If they say it to each other its seen as nothing significant.

Does this make it morally correct to say regardless is basically the question. 

[Zkyire]

LinksOcarina wrote...

So?

Seriously? You need it explained?

Argh, bugger this thread, I'm out.

[saMoorai]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

I like strong women. But I am well aware of their rarity in real life. I have no problem indulging in Dragon Age's style of wish-fulfillment fantasy.

Incidentally, I think the "strength" of the women has declined coming from DA:O to DA2:

Anora > Leliana > Meredith > Wynne > Aveline > Morrigan > Tallis > Isabela > Merrill >>> Leandra

Merrill is a sign that the writers have folded and given in to more traditional male expectations of LIs.

How in the hell is Aveline so far down that list? 

[Sutekh]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

On the contrary. Isabela is severely brain damaged from alcohol and syphilis. Merrill is the archetypical idiot hero even without any brain damage.

Isabela has none of the symptoms of neurosyphilis, or of brain damage induced by alcohol. Really, now, google it or something. Whatever thing she caught in the course of the game, she was responsible enough to get cured by Anders (as shown explicitly).

As for Merrill, she's far from being an idiot. Being naive doesn't make her one, and her inability to adapt says nothing about her intellect.

And you don't judge the strength of people, whatever their gender, by how easy it is to break them, if only because there are several ways to be strong.

[MichaelStuart]

If all the female characters were replaced with male characters I won't care, same if all the male characters were replaced by female characters.
For me, a fictional character's gender is about as important as their eye color.

[LinksOcarina]

Zkyire wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

So?

Seriously? You need it explained?

Argh, bugger this thread, I'm out.

No, I understand completely. I just don't give a damn. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 23 février 2013 - 11:43 .

[Plaintiff]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Your attitude and ridiculous strawman argument make it clear that you're only posting this to be reactionary. Have you even read the article you want us to discuss? Because I have, and at no point does the author state that male developers are afraid of "strong women".

The fact that the developers of an Aliens game didn't think to include women from the word go is very concerning. The protagonist of the movie franchise is female, and there are several other prominent female characters in it. It's inconceivable that the developers would just "forget" that women exist in the Aliens universe, if they were truly fans of the franchise. I do not think it's wrong to say that this incident is indicative of a wider problem in videogame culture.

This is not just an issue that affects women. Sexual and ethnic minorities are also terribly underrrepresented in videogames and media generally.

While i agree that this seems a troll topic, the bolded interests me.

What is underrepresented? If only 10% of the world's population are [racial/ethnic group], why should there be more than one in ten of them?

That's a good question. Are you suggesting that we change the ratio of videogame protagonists to reflect ethnic distribution in the real world?

Because, since North America (including the United States and Canada) only accounts for 5.1 percent of the world's population, the number of North American protagonists in videogames should only be five in a hundred. And out of those five, at least two should be women, and only three (at max) should be white.

[Plaintiff]

Zkyire wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Your attitude and ridiculous strawman argument make it clear that you're only posting this to be reactionary. Have you even read the article you want us to discuss? Because I have, and at no point does the author state that male developers are afraid of "strong women".

The fact that the developers of an Aliens game didn't think to include women from the word go is very concerning. The protagonist of the movie franchise is female, and there are several other prominent female characters in it. It's inconceivable that the developers would just "forget" that women exist in the Aliens universe, if they were truly fans of the franchise. I do not think it's wrong to say that this incident is indicative of a wider problem in videogame culture.

This is not just an issue that affects women. Sexual and ethnic minorities are also terribly underrrepresented in videogames and media generally.

Seriously, what kind of ridiculous logic is that?

White people are terribly underrepresented in video games and media in
South Asia, East Asia, Middle East, North Africa, Sub-Saharan Africa.


The media caters to its primary demographic. In Western nations, that's white people.

If you really cared about "representation"; complain about other countries too.

Otherwise you're just whining about white people. But I guess that's okay?

Bloody hell.

Except that's not true at all, Mr. Strawman. Western nations are very culturally diverse. And I'm not just talking about ethnicity. Women of all ethnicities make up at least 50% of the population of Western nations, and homosexuals of all ethnicities make up about 10% of that same population, possibly more.

If your argument is that people should be catering only to the market in which they live and produce their games, non-white ethnicities, women and gays are still grossly underrepresented, and your position is nonsense.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 24 février 2013 - 12:55 .

[Redbelle]

Are we talking about the portreyal of all of human group diversity? Or are we missing something a little more fundamental?

See, the disscussion seem's centre'd around being strong. And the porteyal of being strong.

But narrative's sometime's work better when a character is vunerable. Because a vunerability is something that a character has to work harder to overcome. This creates drama, which is an integral part of story telling.

Thinking back to Toby Maguire's first spider-man film where the goblin made his first appearence, Mary Jane screamed with a look of total panic on her face. She was not a weak character by any means. She had her strength's. But when faced with a situation that made her feel vunerable she screamed and took on the role of damsel in distress. A role that allowed spider-man to go about her rescue and be portreyed as an even bigger hero for saving the lady.

That's just an off the top of my head example of how vunerablility can lead to a greater emotional investment in the action. Some stories would not hit as higher note without someone filling in the role of the vunerable one. Because if everybody was as strong in mind, body and spirit with the drive to fight the good fight, whatever that may be, there would be no obvious hero.

[karushna5]

Wow this is a heated topic, hmmm I don't want to flare any feeling but my ideas on the different issues:

Women are women and there are various kinds, as a woman who makes it her job to cook and clean for her loved ones, I do not believe that makes me without motivation or goals. I am a different kind of woman who has various goals and aspirations, and feel that perhaps a leandra as long as there is an Aveline makes me happy. Women are emotional, men are emotional. We have our ties and especially some types of women and men will be dependent or independent as it strikes them, I don't think the lack of women is a sign from Bioware but more lack of molds and the time it takes to create two of them, DA2 was a little haphazard like that.

As far as race? It is a little off topic but still on the issue of minorities in some ways. First of all it is a broad mistake of history to say there were no blacks in the Middle Ages, in fact there were whole groups of neighborhoods with black communities Elizabeth the 1 st complained about it. Shakespeare play Othello which took place earlier has a main character who is black. Due to Roman expansion and how they Conquered there were probably Blacks in England before the Saxons. Vikings took slaves from around the world, and Ireland had a huge group it is believed of black Vikings who settled there. Although Black Irish is a different term altogether. Asians are less likely in a Medieval setting, and Arabs should be fairly common...historically. I do love my history. Regardless of this even if it was not historically based, feeling included should come before a pretend fantasy very loosely based on a real time period.

and in the least related note as far as Chick-Fil-A anyone who is against them because of their views should know they completely recanted and withdrew funding those programs and even added provisions to protect gay employees. I am very for the gay community and stop to eat there occaisonally to show my appreciation of those changes, but what everyone does with their money is up to them

[sarakirrer]

jillabender wrote...

Just to clarify my earlier comments, what I was trying to convey was that some people are in the position of being able to take for granted that they'll see their gender, ethnic group, or sexual orientation represented in media like video games, while other people aren't. And that is a situation of inequality, even if it's not necessarily the result of conscious discrimination.

I completely agree that one shouldn't expect any game developer to fulfill quotas for representation - obviously, it can't be the responsibility of any game developer to make absolutely certain that every group is represented, because no game developer has the resources to do that. But with respect, I don't think that's what anyone is actually asking for.

All that many people seem to be saying is that it's worthwhile for a game developer to try to achieve greater inclusion if they're in a position to do so - and that exclusion often happens in situations where it makes little sense (for example, when the developers of the Aliens game had to be asked to include female marines), simply because it's seen by many people as normal.

In short, I think it's entirely fair for people who have been less often represented in media to say that they would like to see more inclusion, and I think it would be very unfair to paint all the people who are asking for that as unreasonable.

I agree with pretty much everything that you have said in this topic, especially the bolded.

Earlier in the thread, Jillabender also brought up the notion that it isn't necessarily exclusive to cut a certain character model for resource reasons (like dwarf females in DA2). However, provided that the developer has the resources to include women and/or people of color and it makes sense for them to do so in the given setting (as in Colonial Marines with women), why is it unreasonable to expect a higher degree of inclusivity?

[andrew252]

how about we all agree to disagree?

Modifié par andrew252, 24 février 2013 - 04:13 .

[Plaintiff]

andrew252 wrote...

how about we all agree to disagree?

No thanks. Media of all kinds informs, challenges and reinforces our view of society, and that means that the portrayal of different demographics (or the lack thereof) is extremely important to the current state and future development of our society. It's not an issue on which I think anyone should be complacent.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 24 février 2013 - 04:23 .

[andrew252]

Plaintiff wrote...

andrew252 wrote...

how about we all agree to disagree?

No thanks. Media of all kinds informs, challenges and reinforces our view of society, and that means that the portrayal of different demographics (or the lack thereof) is extremely important to the current state and future development of our society. It's not an issue on which I think anyone should be complacent.

dosent that happend all the time?

[jillabender]

sarakirrer wrote...

jillabender wrote...

Just to clarify my earlier comments, what I was trying to convey was that some people are in the position of being able to take for granted that they'll see their gender, ethnic group, or sexual orientation represented in media like video games, while other people aren't. And that is a situation of inequality, even if it's not necessarily the result of conscious discrimination.

I completely agree that one shouldn't expect any game developer to fulfill quotas for representation - obviously, it can't be the responsibility of any game developer to make absolutely certain that every group is represented, because no game developer has the resources to do that. But with respect, I don't think that's what anyone is actually asking for.

All that many people seem to be saying is that it's worthwhile for a game developer to try to achieve greater inclusion if they're in a position to do so - and that exclusion often happens in situations where it makes little sense (for example, when the developers of the Aliens game had to be asked to include female marines), simply because it's seen by many people as normal.

In short, I think it's entirely fair for people who have been less often represented in media to say that they would like to see more inclusion, and I think it would be very unfair to paint all the people who are asking for that as unreasonable.

I agree with pretty much everything that you have said in this topic, especially the bolded.

Earlier in the thread, Jillabender also brought up the notion that it isn't necessarily exclusive to cut a certain character model for resource reasons (like dwarf females in DA2). However, provided that the developer has the resources to include women and/or people of color and it makes sense for them to do so in the given setting (as in Colonial Marines with women), why is it unreasonable to expect a higher degree of inclusivity?

Thank you! As I said earlier, I hope to see games in the future with more varied settings and more diverse characters, and I hope that in the future, the inclusion of many non-white and non-straight characters will be something that's simply expected.

Modifié par jillabender, 24 février 2013 - 05:05 .

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Darth Krytie wrote...

I call privilege on just about everyone here who say it doesn't matter whether there are women (strong or otherwise) in gaming. Mostly, because it's easy to say it doesn't matter if your group isn't the one being ignored. What the hell does a dudebro care if there are no women in their games if they're a dudebro? Women like me, however, would like more games where there are women in decent roles. I don't want to see sexism shoved in my face during my free hobby time.

It's just so frustrating to see that sentiment over and over again. "Why does it matter if it's a good game?" Because it does matter. Because most of these games would still be good games with women in it. Because I wonder if people would be so cavalier about it if women were dominant in video games and dudes were rare...would men be cool with being ignored in these medium if they were hardly ever represent and, when they were, hardly ever represented well?

I am sure you would love to think we wouldnt but in all honesty we wouldnt care, I mean you dont see guys going on the Winx club or Bratz forums complaining about the lack of male fairies or the misrepresentation of the male gender in these shows because we simply dont watch them, we couldnt care less what happens in these shows so it boggles the mind why some women feel entitled to the right to dictate what content we put in our games.

I mean look at Dreamfall: the Longest Journey, the game was obviously written to appeal to women to the point where the only male controllable character says stuff like "Gee I sure am glad our society is run by females and not brutish testosterone driven males like myself", that is far more sexist than any imagined slight you might have with women not appearing in the new Aliens game but you dont see men up in arms complaining about the blatant sexism and feminist propaganda rife in this game, we simply dont care.

The problem is not that males in the gaming industry are sexist for not catering to your feminine tastes but more that there arent enough women stepping up to the plate and developing games that cater more to female tastes. So instead of complaining why dont you show some iniative and create your own damn game like a man would!

[Xilizhra]

I am sure you would love to think we wouldnt but in all honesty we wouldnt care, I mean you dont see guys going on the Winx club or Bratz forums complaining about the lack of male fairies or the misrepresentation of the male gender in these shows because we simply dont watch them, we couldnt care less what happens in these shows so it boggles the mind why some women feel entitled to the right to dictate what content we put in our games.

Why would we ever deny you the right to complain about Bratz content? Who would ever? In any case, your examples aren't dominating an entire medium.

I mean look at Dreamfall: the Longest Journey, the game was obviously written to appeal to women to the point where the only male controllable character says stuff like "Gee I sure am glad our society is run by females and not brutish testosterone driven males like myself", that is far more sexist than any imagined slight you might have with women not appearing in the new Aliens game but you dont see men up in arms complaining about the blatant sexism and feminist propaganda rife in this game, we simply dont care.

Well, that's what, one game to millions? And even then, you complained about it just now citing something that strikes me as probably being misrepresented anyway.

The problem is not that males in the gaming industry are sexist for not catering to your feminine tastes but more that there arent enough women stepping up to the plate and developing games that cater more to female tastes. So instead of complaining why dont you show some iniative and create your own damn game like a man would!

If you don't care either way, why is this an issue for you at all? If none of the results will be meaningful to you, then this doesn't matter a damn to you, and you can calm down and stop talking about this, to the benefit of all.