491 réponses à ce sujet

[sympathy4sarenreturns]

Too look sexy as hell, be either submissive or strong (like sourceresses in The Witcher 2....strong and independent), be available for sex AND close up body shots of the rump or breasts. I'm ok with fully clad armor as long as I can see skin at some point. And if one is ugly and attacks me, i get to decapitate.

Also, make sure to give them personality and special physical features. I love long hair, and beauty marks can be good. Unique eyes. Deep eyes. And make sure, as a guy, I only get hit on by women. I feel harassed, sexually, when guys hit on me.

[CrystaJ]

we simply dont watch them, we couldnt care less what happens in these shows so it boggles the mind why some women feel entitled to the right to dictate what content we put in our games.

Well, if you fellas did want to watch them, I wouldn't be surprised if there was actual complaints about lack of male representation in Barbie Adventures or something. And I wouldn't tell them to keep their input to themselves because it's a female-dominated market and they should make their own Barbie games instead.

The difference is, well, we're talking about games that both genders happen to take interest in. I'm not sure how suggestions = dictation, though, unless you mean Bioware actually taking into account female tastes alongside the manly ones. Which still isn't really more "dictating" than going out of your way to appeal to any particular group.

I'm not sure why people keep saying women simply aren't interested in game development. Assassin's Creed, Guild Wars, and of course Bioware have plenty of 'em. They may be fewer in number, but that's simply because we need time to catch up lol.

[CuriousArtemis]

This thread of SO "Exhibit A" of Typical BSN thread, haha. Composed chiefly of the usual three specimens: 1. Troll, 2. Clueless Neanderthal, 3. Bored Progressive.

Bored Progressives, I salute you, but your time will probably be better spent planning tomorrow's outfit, paying some bills, or catching up on the telly

[CrystaJ]

Internet forums are where bored progressives go when they've already done all that, though.

[SoSolaris]

imbs wrote...

Such a dangerous line of thought this. Why should anyone deliberately aim for socially correct gender/ethnic ratios? Who honestly cares? Art (including video games) is not a democracy and doesn't have to be politically correct. honestly recent Bioware games give me the impression they care more about how politically enlightened they look than how good the games they make actually are.

Well, I do. I care. I'm black, and it personally makes me happy to see minority characters receiving positive representation in any form of media. I'm not asking for an entire cast of characters to be of a certain ethnicity, but even a little diversity can go a long way imo.

[Plaintiff]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...
The problem is not that males in the gaming industry are sexist for not catering to your feminine tastes but more that there arent enough women stepping up to the plate and developing games that cater more to female tastes.

Because only women can make games that women like. Men are just incapable of comprehending a woman's gaming preferences, or really any aspect of a woman. That's why we need women to make games that appeal to womanly interests, like cooking, and flower arranging, and learning how to please her man.

[Fredward]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...
I mean look at Dreamfall: the Longest Journey, the game was obviously written to appeal to women to the point where the only male controllable character says stuff like "Gee I sure am glad our society is run by females and not brutish testosterone driven males like myself", that is far more sexist than any imagined slight you might have with women not appearing in the new Aliens game but you dont see men up in arms complaining about the blatant sexism and feminist propaganda rife in this game, we simply dont care.

Uh. Don't speak for me. I totally care. Reverse discrimination is an AWESOME way of absolutely never moving forward.

andrew252 wrote...
how about we all agree to disagree?

BUT WHAT WOULD I DO IN MY SPARE TIME?!

[TEWR]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

I like strong women. But I am well aware of their rarity in real life.

A strong woman can be defined in various ways, not all of which need come from simply trying to go for a male role. Sansa Stark is strong, but so is Brienne of Tarth.

They're not rare in real life. A woman that survives emotional turmoil but doesn't break is strong, regardless of what she's doing with her life. Regardless of how she interacts with people. She could be a bit of a goofball, but that doesn't diminish her strength in any way.

Merrill is a sign that the writers have folded and given in to more traditional male expectations of LIs.

No.

[CuriousArtemis]

CrystaJ wrote...

Internet forums are where bored progressives go when they've already done all that, though.

Or when they don't want to go to sleep for some inexplicable reason *looks at clock, sees it's 3:02... WHY AM I UP*

[CuriousArtemis]

Plaintiff wrote...

Because only women can make games that women like. Men are just incapable of comprehending a woman's gaming preferences, or really any aspect of a woman. That's why we need women to make games that appeal to womanly interests, like cooking, and flower arranging, and learning how to please her man.

Don't forget ironing! Oh and these games must also be compatible with my Special Woman Fingers controllers, since regular controllers are obviously made for men and are too rough and masculine for my tiny delicate digits to hold.

[TEWR]

motomotogirl wrote...

CrystaJ wrote...

Internet forums are where bored progressives go when they've already done all that, though.

Or when they don't want to go to sleep for some inexplicable reason *looks at clock, sees it's 3:02... WHY AM I UP*

Yeah, it's 3:13 right now and I have work in the morning. If I don't go to bed soon, I'll be doing another 8 hour shift on 3 hours of sleep. 

[CuriousArtemis]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

CrystaJ wrote...

Internet forums are where bored progressives go when they've already done all that, though.

Or when they don't want to go to sleep for some inexplicable reason *looks at clock, sees it's 3:02... WHY AM I UP*

Yeah, it's 3:13 right now and I have work in the morning. If I don't go to bed soon, I'll be doing another 8 hour shift on 3 hours of sleep. 

Okay, you go first!! 

[Sutekh]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

I am sure you would love to think we wouldnt but in all honesty we wouldnt care, I mean you dont see guys going on the Winx club or Bratz forums complaining about the lack of male fairies or the misrepresentation of the male gender in these shows because we simply dont watch them, we couldnt care less what happens in these shows so it boggles the mind why some women feel entitled to the right to dictate what content we put in our games.

As an adult woman, I'd feel really uncomfortable going in any Bratz or Winx forum, seeing those are targeted at pre-teen girls. And those aren't "your games". You're starting to sound as though you feel your territory has been invaded by us stupid females who should go back watching Bratz and Barbie.

I mean look at Dreamfall: the Longest Journey, the game was obviously written to appeal to women to the point where the only male controllable character says stuff like "Gee I sure am glad our society is run by females and not brutish testosterone driven males like myself", that is far more sexist than any imagined slight you might have with women not appearing in the new Aliens game but you dont see men up in arms complaining about the blatant sexism and feminist propaganda rife in this game, we simply dont care.

You care enough to consider this "far more sexist". You also assume (as, apparently, do the writers of this game I haven't played) that we all would consider that kind of discourse to be OK. That's a big generalization right there.

The problem is not that males in the gaming industry are sexist for not catering to your feminine tastes but more that there arent enough women stepping up to the plate and developing games that cater more to female tastes. So instead of complaining why dont you show some iniative and create your own damn game like a man would!

And, pray tell, what woud that be? I hate to burst your comfortable bubble, but there isn't a set of defined "feminine" and "masculine" tastes. We're all thinking individuals, not arthropods whose whole behavior and thinking would be driven by gender. There isn't a male protected territory when it comes to computer games either. This is especially true when it comes to the RPG genre in general and Dragon Age in particular.

While there is a point in saying women (or men or whatever) shouldn't be included no matter where and how just for the sake of filling quotas, this "get off my manly lane and go back to the kitchen" of yours is starting to sound desperately territorial. "OMG! Women in my games! Girls appropriating my stuff! Return to the Barbie Circle of Hell, you menacing interlopers!" 

[Plaintiff]

Sutekh wrote...
You care enough to consider this "far more sexist". You also assume (as, apparently, do the writers of this game I haven't played) that we all would consider that kind of discourse to be OK. That's a big generalization right there.

Considering how's he's grossly misrepresented other material so far, I suggest we take his accusations of anti-male sexism in any game with a decent serving of salt.

[jillabender]

Plaintiff wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...
The problem is not that males in the gaming industry are sexist for not catering to your feminine tastes but more that there arent enough women stepping up to the plate and developing games that cater more to female tastes.

Because only women can make games that women like. Men are just incapable of comprehending a woman's gaming preferences, or really any aspect of a woman. That's why we need women to make games that appeal to womanly interests, like cooking, and flower arranging, and learning how to please her man.

*snorts coffee through nose*

Modifié par jillabender, 24 février 2013 - 10:27 .

[Firky]

The Longest Journey had a female protag, not to appeal to female gamers, but because it worked better for the story. (According to this interview, and I absolutely think that that was my experience of the game; that the story was enriched because April was female.)

http://betax1.justad..._Tornquist.shtm

I think they just embraced some generalised female characteristics in the context of storytelling.

(And hooray for a developer who is more concerned with story than the protag's gender on sales.)

[Plaintiff]

jillabender wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...
The problem is not that males in the gaming industry are sexist for not catering to your feminine tastes but more that there arent enough women stepping up to the plate and developing games that cater more to female tastes.

Because only women can make games that women like. Men are just incapable of comprehending a woman's gaming preferences, or really any aspect of a woman. That's why we need women to make games that appeal to womanly interests, like cooking, and flower arranging, and learning how to please her man.

*snorts coffee through nose*

They may need to get a man's help, though. Silly women are just no good at the complicated computer stuff. Their husbands probably won't give them the money to fund such a frivolous project, but maybe they can pay their programmers with sandwiches and homemade lemonade.

[Yendor_Trawz]

Plaintiff wrote...

If your argument is that people should be catering only to the market in which they live and produce their games, non-white ethnicities, women and gays are still grossly underrepresented, and your position is nonsense.

Games shouldn't be designed to represent the market they are selling to, they should be populated with the people who the writers and designers deem to be the demographic of that setting.

When you try to insert political correctness into a fictional setting to appease the perceived sensibilities of your market, you are effectively committing self censorship. Its the first nail in the coffin of good art.

My own opinion is that it almost always looks like tokenism when you do. I believe it's fine to exclude certain races, sexualities, left handers, whatever, within a fictional setting. If that setting were meant to mirror our own society, then yes, it would be misrepresentative.

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Plaintiff wrote...

Sutekh wrote...
You care enough to consider this "far more sexist". You also assume (as, apparently, do the writers of this game I haven't played) that we all would consider that kind of discourse to be OK. That's a big generalization right there.

Considering how's he's grossly misrepresented other material so far, I suggest we take his accusations of anti-male sexism in any game with a decent serving of salt.

Oh I see how it is, so when a woman gets upset when female marines arent put in an action game it is totally an acceptable response and an example of how Men are ruining the game industry with their "Anti-women sexist power agenda" but when a man points out an actual example of anti-male sexism in videogames it is called "grossly misrepresenting material"? Thats one hell of a double standard you got there, some might even call it "sexism".

[philippe willaume]

Yendor_Trawz wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

If your argument is that people should be catering only to the market in which they live and produce their games, non-white ethnicities, women and gays are still grossly underrepresented, and your position is nonsense.

Games shouldn't be designed to represent the market they are selling to, they should be populated with the people who the writers and designers deem to be the demographic of that setting.

When you try to insert political correctness into a fictional setting to appease the perceived sensibilities of your market, you are effectively committing self censorship. Its the first nail in the coffin of good art.

My own opinion is that it almost always looks like tokenism when you do. I believe it's fine to exclude certain races, sexualities, left handers, whatever, within a fictional setting. If that setting were meant to mirror our own society, then yes, it would be misrepresentative.

+1

[AllThatJazz]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

I call privilege on just about everyone here who say it doesn't matter whether there are women (strong or otherwise) in gaming. Mostly, because it's easy to say it doesn't matter if your group isn't the one being ignored. What the hell does a dudebro care if there are no women in their games if they're a dudebro? Women like me, however, would like more games where there are women in decent roles. I don't want to see sexism shoved in my face during my free hobby time.

It's just so frustrating to see that sentiment over and over again. "Why does it matter if it's a good game?" Because it does matter. Because most of these games would still be good games with women in it. Because I wonder if people would be so cavalier about it if women were dominant in video games and dudes were rare...would men be cool with being ignored in these medium if they were hardly ever represent and, when they were, hardly ever represented well?

I am sure you would love to think we wouldnt but in all honesty we wouldnt care, I mean you dont see guys going on the Winx club or Bratz forums complaining about the lack of male fairies or the misrepresentation of the male gender in these shows because we simply dont watch them, we couldnt care less what happens in these shows so it boggles the mind why some women feel entitled to the right to dictate what content we put in our games.

I mean look at Dreamfall: the Longest Journey, the game was obviously written to appeal to women to the point where the only male controllable character says stuff like "Gee I sure am glad our society is run by females and not brutish testosterone driven males like myself", that is far more sexist than any imagined slight you might have with women not appearing in the new Aliens game but you dont see men up in arms complaining about the blatant sexism and feminist propaganda rife in this game, we simply dont care.

The problem is not that males in the gaming industry are sexist for not catering to your feminine tastes but more that there arent enough women stepping up to the plate and developing games that cater more to female tastes. So instead of complaining why dont you show some iniative and create your own damn game like a man would!

You think women are all 11 years old? Because that's the age that such programmes are aimed at. The equivalent would be me going onto a Ben 10 forum and complaining that it's too targeted to pre-teen boys. Regardless, let's use your example for a minute.

Imagine for a moment that whenever you switch on the television, it's basically all Winx or Bratz or Barbie. A vast majority of programmes involve pink, fairies, glitter, housework, nail art, a bit of flower-arranging and all that stuff that all of us girlies simply love. In all but a tiny minority of programmes you silly, brutish, beer loving boys are relegated to the role of boyfriends, fathers and occasional villains (for which, by the way, you should be grateful - we don't have have put you in our things at all!). In more adult programming, there is a distinct over -emphasis on the contents of your trousers, and little else (what's wrong with that? You love all the attention, silly boy!).

There is a bit of 'catering to male tastes' programming (male tastes being beer, because all boys like beer and not much else). You (in this scenario) don't like beer, but you are rather partial to a Winx adventure or two (so sparkly!), you just wish that there were a few more boy fairies in them - after all, you do make up almost 50% of the population - is it so unreasonable for you ask that there a few more male characters here and there who aren't either old and ugly, villains, or boytoys? Of course, you keep quiet. You know that as soon as you make the suggestion, you will be told, quite firmly by the Ladies In Charge, that you are being silly, you are 'up in arms' and 'crying sexism', and frankly you should consider yourselves very fortunate that we are letting you feature at all in Ladies' Things! If you want anything else, you shall jolly well have to go and make it yourself!

Which, of course, is pretty tough. You live in a female-dominated world. Historically, many of you have been pointed at and laughed at (or ignored, of course) for having the temerity to think you could do anything other than beer related things. We women are nice to you about it, though - 'Darling, be quiet, go to the bedroom and take off your trousers, I'll be there in a jiff - oh, and a beer would be nice!'.  Even more female-dominated at the WBB (Winx Bratz Barbie) Corporation - it has been very difficult for males to make any real headway, let alone get to to the top of such an industry - because men only know about men things, and there really is no market for more beer related television! And without a critical mass of men who have already 'made it' in the industry, there are precious few role-models to encourage new blood.

Things are slowly moving forward -  there are more men working in more departments at the WBB than ever before, more women are realising that a) not all men like beer not all men only like beer and c) some men like Winx and would love to be a part of the programme output and the process of making it!  But, alas, progress is slow, and needs a bit of a helping hand. Do you add your voice to others, so that one glorious day there will be  Blue Fairies taking their places among the ranks of Pink, and no-one will think it strange or wrong or 'politically correct'? Or do you shut up and stay quiet like a good boy, and then wonder why nothing ever changed?

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 24 février 2013 - 11:09 .

[karushna5]

At the same time, in a fictional setting, it is hardly censoring oneself to include more. I believe the writers of Dragon Age believe that dark skinned people like Isabela and different people of sexualities do exist in Thedas and it makes sense to include them.

You are making it impossible for it ever to be included if you say when it is included it is tokenism but when it isn't included they are avoiding self censure. Personally I believe it would be self censure to not include it since it is part of the world. And to have a fictional world means to make it in the way you wish.

I find it difficult to find a reason not to include it in a fictional setting. It doesn't add anything by not being included. And it doesn't take away by being included. Perhaps outright women warriors for some people makes a great deal of sense in fictional settings if they want a more historic bent, although once again it is a fictional setting where the creators can create a world they want. I once read John Carter series about going to Mars, in it there were Green People who had 6 arms, yellow people, Red people(who were the only ones who looked human but definitely not the same biology) and many more. If you can have fictional races like dwarves I don't see how including real races or sexualities or gender roles are any different in a fictional setting.

[Paul E Dangerously]

karushna5 wrote...

At the same time, in a fictional setting, it is hardly censoring oneself to include more. I believe the writers of Dragon Age believe that dark skinned people like Isabela and different people of sexualities do exist in Thedas and it makes sense to include them.

I've got no problem with this. What I mind is everyone romanceable in DA2 being bisexual. Barring Sebastian, but DLC shouldn't really count.

[AllThatJazz]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Sutekh wrote...
You care enough to consider this "far more sexist". You also assume (as, apparently, do the writers of this game I haven't played) that we all would consider that kind of discourse to be OK. That's a big generalization right there.

Considering how's he's grossly misrepresented other material so far, I suggest we take his accusations of anti-male sexism in any game with a decent serving of salt.

Oh I see how it is, so when a woman gets upset when female marines arent put in an action game it is totally an acceptable response and an example of how Men are ruining the game industry with their "Anti-women sexist power agenda" but when a man points out an actual example of anti-male sexism in videogames it is called "grossly misrepresenting material"? Thats one hell of a double standard you got there, some might even call it "sexism".

Nope, I agree it was a sexist comment. However lightly and jokingly it was meant. It was a great big old generalisation. On the other hand, I wish I could think of only one or two isolated examples of misogyny in video games. That would be progress indeed.  

[Lennard Testarossa]

It is fine to ask for more 'strong' female characters. Demanding them (and other things like more female game developers in leading positions), which is what many 'bored progressives' do, kind of rubs me the wrong way. Women being 'underrepresented' in video games is mostly due to the vast majority of women having no interest whatsoever in video games just ten years ago.

The people developing video games right now are probably people who played games ten years ago, when video games were icky.