491 réponses à ce sujet

[Xiomara]

This "FEMINISM!111!! troll thread from Gandalf the Bored is nothing to do with Dragon Age.

[jillabender]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

It is fine to ask for more 'strong' female characters. Demanding them (and other things like more female game developers in leading positions), which is what many 'bored progressives' do, kind of rubs me the wrong way.

I think there are many examples of strong female characters in games, both in terms of strong writing and characterization and in terms of female characters who are physically or emotionally strong.

As I said earlier, I don't think every female character needs to be physically or emotionally strong, or a good role model. It's great to see physically and emotionally strong female characters, but more than that, I like to see three-dimensional female characters with flaws that feel true-to-life.

Modifié par jillabender, 24 février 2013 - 11:33 .

[9TailsFox]

I think The role of women in the Dragon Age series land not only DA should be different.
I am man I love boobs so we have : Isabela, Morrigan ( I am not sure Morrigan because she different from other romances and I like it, ultimate goal is not sex, sex meaningless for her first you have sex then you have romance).

If the game would be only be booby fiesta it will be boring so we have : Aveline, Wynne.

I like humor we have Merrill, Leliana.

I think Dragon age handle it perfectly.

Why can't we just stop fighting man vs women and just have what all want.
Man gets naked women , women gets Fenris, naked man or whatever you want, I am sorry I don't understand women please explain.

Modifié par 9TailsFox, 24 février 2013 - 11:40 .

[Solmanian]

What's appealing in medieval settings is the roughness. You have 99% who have absulotely no rights, and even if you belong to that top precentile and happen to be female you're treated like commodity. The divide between the have and have not's is painfully obvious. It's appeal it's not because I like the idea of the gender/race/social based wide spread oppression; but because it makes you feel "if anywhere needs a hero, it's this place".

But thedas is just too tolerant (sure if you're an elf you're screwed, but you're still better off than most commoners IRL dark ages). A charecter like Isabella would've been much more powerfull if it was set in a society that is gender biased. But in ultra-liberal thedas she just comes of as a cast-away from "sex in the city".

Thedas maybe technologicaly backwards, but it's culturaly more "developed" than most of our modern world. Sure, there are places with slavery and caste based oppression; but we have those to. Frankly it somewhat annoys me. It's suppose to be a dark epic, but the edges have been smoothed off.

[Wulfram]

Yendor_Trawz wrote...

Games shouldn't be designed to represent the market they are selling to, they should be populated with the people who the writers and designers deem to be the demographic of that setting.

When you try to insert political correctness into a fictional setting to appease the perceived sensibilities of your market, you are effectively committing self censorship. Its the first nail in the coffin of good art.

My own opinion is that it almost always looks like tokenism when you do. I believe it's fine to exclude certain races, sexualities, left handers, whatever, within a fictional setting. If that setting were meant to mirror our own society, then yes, it would be misrepresentative.

I'm sympathetic to this argument on an individual basis, but it's problematic when applied to multiple independent fictional settings across an entire industry.  If all your fictional settings exclude left handed people, then that at least suggests there's an underlying reason for it - probably avoiding animation issues in that case.

And doesn't apply when you're dealing with an established setting, like in the case of Aliens which was cited originally.

Modifié par Wulfram, 24 février 2013 - 11:55 .

[Lennard Testarossa]

Solmanian wrote...
What's appealing in medieval settings is the roughness. You have 99% who have absulotely no rights, and even if you belong to that top precentile and happen to be female you're treated like commodity. The divide between the have and have not's is painfully obvious. It's appeal it's not because I like the idea of the gender/race/social based wide spread oppression; but because it makes you feel "if anywhere needs a hero, it's this place".

While you're correct about Thedas being too liberal to be truly believable, you should also take into account that a female Jesus, magic and other intelligent races/species are likely to change the way a culture develops to some degree. Racism within the human species for example would be far less likely to occur.

[Solmanian]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Solmanian wrote...
What's appealing in medieval settings is the roughness. You have 99% who have absulotely no rights, and even if you belong to that top precentile and happen to be female you're treated like commodity. The divide between the have and have not's is painfully obvious. It's appeal it's not because I like the idea of the gender/race/social based wide spread oppression; but because it makes you feel "if anywhere needs a hero, it's this place".

While you're correct about Thedas being too liberal to be truly believable, you should also take into account that a female Jesus, magic and other intelligent races/species are likely to change the way a culture develops to some degree. Racism within the human species for example would be far less likely to occur.

Actually the racism in DA is on a very comfortable level for me. the orlesian Vs fereldan thing realy gives an english Vs french vibe.

[Plaintiff]

Yendor_Trawz wrote...
Games shouldn't be designed to represent the market they are selling to, they should be populated with the people who the writers and designers deem to be the demographic of that setting.

And what a coincidence that the demographics of all their settings are almost always exclsuively white, straight men! Even when they make a game based on a film franchise that features women extensively, female characters are only added at the last minute!

When you try to insert political correctness into a fictional setting to appease the perceived sensibilities of your market, you are effectively committing self censorship. Its the first nail in the coffin of good art.

You heard it here first, folks. To make good art, you have to be an exclusionary bigot.

My own opinion is that it almost always looks like tokenism when you do. I believe it's fine to exclude certain races, sexualities, left handers, whatever, within a fictional setting. If that setting were meant to mirror our own society, then yes, it would be misrepresentative.

Then you need to crack open a dictionary and look up the actual meaning of tokenism.

"Tokenism" isn't a problem, if the minority characters are written like real people instead of shallow stereotypes. Writers who hide behind the fear of being "accused of tokenism" are only exposing their inability to think of minorities as real people. What they're actually saying is "I don't know how to write a coloured, female or gay person, because I'm incapable of understanding that their brains work exactly the same as mine, because I am unable to look past their totally superficial differences. Despite this, I have no problem writing elves, dwarves and space aliens"

It's an absolutely pathetic excuse. The solution to tokenism is learning to write better, not excluding minorities from your work in order to avoid confronting your own ignorance.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 24 février 2013 - 12:38 .

[Plaintiff]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...
Oh I see how it is, so when a woman gets upset when female marines arent put in an action game it is totally an acceptable response and an example of how Men are ruining the game industry with their "Anti-women sexist power agenda" but when a man points out an actual example of anti-male sexism in videogames it is called "grossly misrepresenting material"? Thats one hell of a double standard you got there, some might even call it "sexism".

Your lack of integrity has nothing to do with your gender, which, up until this point, I did not even know, and everything to do with your behaviour.

You grossly misrepresented the content of the original article you linked to. You grossly misrepresented the arguments of other posters, including myself, in this very thread.

So no, I'm not going to take anything you say at face value. At this point, chances are it's a strawman, if not an outright falsehood.

[w0lfam0da1s]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

It is fine to ask for more 'strong' female characters. Demanding them (and other things like more female game developers in leading positions), which is what many 'bored progressives' do, kind of rubs me the wrong way. Women being 'underrepresented' in video games is mostly due to the vast majority of women having no interest whatsoever in video games just ten years ago.

The people developing video games right now are probably people who played games ten years ago, when video games were icky.

I can say that many of my aunts and my older sister and even my mother played video games. Of corse for people my mothers age (and she still plays) had games like frogger and pac man. then came other games and some directed towords manily males because that's what was know at the time. that us males are the ones playing the games based on things like we are the ones reading the comics and bying the action figers and so on. and yes some of the games would be considerd icky. however my sister coud kick my ass at mortal combat or other games like that. the reason for it was because she played the geme more then me. even her now husband didn't know that she's a gamer. or the fact that she rides dirtbikes and many things of that nature that would be called a males thing. it was the fault of the gaming world of not asking who plays and who doesn't and so on. because we just assume that a woman isn't playing games and things like that.
but i most likely got of track again. so don't mind me. ill just be over here feeding my baby girl now that she's up.

[philippe willaume]

9TailsFox wrote...

I think The role of women in the Dragon Age series land not only DA should be different.
I am man I love boobs so we have : Isabela, Morrigan ( I am not sure Morrigan because she different from other romances and I like it, ultimate goal is not sex, sex meaningless for her first you have sex then you have romance).

If the game would be only be booby fiesta it will be boring so we have : Aveline, Wynne.

I like humor we have Merrill, Leliana.

Why can't we just stop fighting man vs women and just have what all want.
Man gets naked women , women gets Fenris, naked man or whatever you want, I am sorry I don't understand women please explain.

Well despite being a manly dude.

I think I will have a pop at that.



In the DA and ME series, male and females are usually strong, weak, useless good or evil in about the same proportion. You can play a man or woman and regardless of your gender you can romance a man or a woman.
Now how many other games do that?  and that's the problem.

To put it another  way
If you take most of the medieval literature womanlead char  you will find that they are usually strong, intelligent, are an active part of team  (and i don't mean look pretty), and when they get abducted, it is by a baddy that eat 15 knight for breakfast without breaking a sweat and when they are prisoner they actively try to spoil the plan of the baddy, not to mention that as  it happens they even save the male hero.
Well you know an equal share partner in the business, that does not only look meek and pretty.
How often does that happen in game?

Phil

Modifié par philippe willaume, 24 février 2013 - 12:31 .

[jillabender]

DuckSoup wrote...

jillabender wrote...

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

It is fine to ask for more 'strong' female characters. Demanding them (and other things like more female game developers in leading positions), which is what many 'bored progressives' do, kind of rubs me the wrong way.

I think there are many examples of strong female characters in games, both in terms of strong writing and characterization and in terms of female characters who are physically or emotionally strong.

As I said earlier, I don't think every female character needs to be physically or emotionally strong, or a good role model. It's great to see physically and emotionally strong female characters, but more than that, I like to see three-dimensional female characters with flaws that feel true-to-life.

I agree with this comment ^^

Thank you! ^__^

Modifié par jillabender, 24 février 2013 - 12:34 .

[Lennard Testarossa]

w0lfam0da1s wrote...
...

Clearly, personally knowing a few women who played video games back then invalidates the statement that most gamers were male.

[w0lfam0da1s]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

w0lfam0da1s wrote...
...

Clearly, personally knowing a few women who played video games back then invalidates the statement that most gamers were male.

my mother still plays and she was the one who suggested Dragon Age and Mass Effect to me. And she's almost 60.

Also i wan't trying to say that it invalidates the statement that most gamers were or are male. i was trying to point out that not asking a female if she played video games leads to assuming that she didn't. also it wasn't something that was talked about freely amongest females for fear of being labled  as not right or needing help from god because the devil has ahold off you and being sent away or something. way back when my mother was a child anything she did was taken into question expecialy if she was at an age they considred a young lady. so it was all hushed up if you did thing like that.
wemon shouldn't smoke
wemon shouldn't drink
the list goes on and on.
and it still the same today. not as bad but it is still there.
but never mind me i most likely got of track again. so ill just be over here changing a stinky diaper.

Modifié par w0lfam0da1s, 24 février 2013 - 01:06 .

[w0lfam0da1s]

also it was my mothers comics i read as a wee lad.

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Plaintiff wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...
Oh I see how it is, so when a woman gets upset when female marines arent put in an action game it is totally an acceptable response and an example of how Men are ruining the game industry with their "Anti-women sexist power agenda" but when a man points out an actual example of anti-male sexism in videogames it is called "grossly misrepresenting material"? Thats one hell of a double standard you got there, some might even call it "sexism".

Your lack of integrity has nothing to do with your gender, which, up until this point, I did not even know, and everything to do with your behaviour.

You grossly misrepresented the content of the original article you linked to. You grossly misrepresented the arguments of other posters, including myself, in this very thread.

So no, I'm not going to take anything you say at face value. At this point, chances are it's a strawman, if not an outright falsehood.

I have not misrepresented anything including your arguments, it is not my fault that you arguments are so weak and petty that they are so easily turned against you, and now instead of trying to engage in civil discussion you resort to petty personal attacks and block your ears to all reason. Typical.

[Plaintiff]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...
Oh I see how it is, so when a woman gets upset when female marines arent put in an action game it is totally an acceptable response and an example of how Men are ruining the game industry with their "Anti-women sexist power agenda" but when a man points out an actual example of anti-male sexism in videogames it is called "grossly misrepresenting material"? Thats one hell of a double standard you got there, some might even call it "sexism".

Your lack of integrity has nothing to do with your gender, which, up until this point, I did not even know, and everything to do with your behaviour.

You grossly misrepresented the content of the original article you linked to. You grossly misrepresented the arguments of other posters, including myself, in this very thread.

So no, I'm not going to take anything you say at face value. At this point, chances are it's a strawman, if not an outright falsehood.

I have not misrepresented anything including your arguments, it is not my fault that you arguments are so weak and petty that they are so easily turned against you, and now instead of trying to engage in civil discussion you resort to petty personal attacks and block your ears to all reason. Typical.

I've not made any personal attacks against you.

You have been saying things in this thread that are not true. It's really that simple. So when you say The Longest Journey, or any game, for that matter, contains sexism against men, I am disinclined to believe you.

If you're not trolling or purposefully lying, then the only other option is that you honestly don't understand why the things you are saying are demonstrably false.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 24 février 2013 - 12:54 .

[jillabender]

DuckSoup wrote...

jillabender wrote...

DuckSoup wrote...

jillabender wrote...

I think there are many examples of strong female characters in games, both in terms of strong writing and characterization and in terms of female characters who are physically or emotionally strong.

As I said earlier, I don't think every female character needs to be physically or emotionally strong, or a good role model. It's great to see physically and emotionally strong female characters, but more than that, I like to see three-dimensional female characters with flaws that feel true-to-life.

I agree with this comment ^^

Thank you! ^__^

You're welcome 

And Lord knows we all got our flaws. Oooowee!

Haha, very true!

[Crypticqa]

9TailsFox wrote...

Why can't we just stop fighting man vs women and just have what all want.
Man gets naked women , women gets Fenris, naked man or whatever you want, I am sorry I don't understand women please explain.

Huh.
We are not aliens you know. I always laught at these comments because it reallly sounds like we were from a different planet or something

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Plaintiff wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...
Oh I see how it is, so when a woman gets upset when female marines arent put in an action game it is totally an acceptable response and an example of how Men are ruining the game industry with their "Anti-women sexist power agenda" but when a man points out an actual example of anti-male sexism in videogames it is called "grossly misrepresenting material"? Thats one hell of a double standard you got there, some might even call it "sexism".

Your lack of integrity has nothing to do with your gender, which, up until this point, I did not even know, and everything to do with your behaviour.

You grossly misrepresented the content of the original article you linked to. You grossly misrepresented the arguments of other posters, including myself, in this very thread.

So no, I'm not going to take anything you say at face value. At this point, chances are it's a strawman, if not an outright falsehood.

I have not misrepresented anything including your arguments, it is not my fault that you arguments are so weak and petty that they are so easily turned against you, and now instead of trying to engage in civil discussion you resort to petty personal attacks and block your ears to all reason. Typical.

I've not made any personal attacks against you.

You have been saying things in this thread that are not true. It's really that simple. So when you say The Longest Journey, or any game, for that matter, contains sexism against men, I am disinclined to believe you.

If you're not trolling or purposefully lying, then the only other option is that you honestly don't understand why the things you are saying are demonstrably false.

apart from the "all women writing staff" comment in the OP please demonstrate how my comments are false. You may not like my comments but that doesnt make them any less true.

[Yuqi]

Edit: Post removed. 

Modifié par Chris Priestly, 24 février 2013 - 11:16 .