462 réponses à ce sujet

[Hazegurl]

I just finished my first playthrough of DA2. It's not as good as the frist but i got into it after a while. I hear a lot of people sided with the mages at the end but I picked the Templars. Namely because there was just too many mages resorting to blood magic to get their way or allowing themselves to be possessed by demons.  At first i was mostly pro mage with bits of pro Templar spinkled in there but honestly, Anders contributed to a large part in why i sided with the Templars. Not my only reason but a big chuck of it. I used him as my healer so i took him nearly everywhere with me and all he did was constantly b*tch about the plight of mages. A mage turns to blood magic and kill a host of people then it was "See what they make us do?!?!" well no I don't! Fenris was right when he asked when are mages going to hold themselves accountable for their crimes. While I thought the Templars were too harsh, i found many more of them to be more sympathetic than the mages.  I even turned down Anders request to let him sneak into the chantry cause it became apparent that he was a lying sack of crap when I started to question him.  I also enjoyed killing him for his crime and I'm glad there was no mention of him in the epilouge. People remember the champion not his sorry ****.

Anyway, Although I sided with the Templars I still spared the mages that begged for their lives and pretty much knew Merideth was going to betray me cause she was just far too insane to be trusted. So glad I was able to kill her too.

So, I know this topic is late but did anyone else side with the Templars and felt it was a good choice instead of just for the trophy or to be "evil"?

[shepard1038]

No, you aren't the only one.

Meredith was right in that Orsino was harboring blood mages in the Circle in "The last straw".

Also they were a lot of mages using blood magic on the docks and in the Circle and summoning shades and demons. Is like the Mages didn't care about civillians casualties.
 
Orsino letting Quentin kidnap and kill women including hawke's mother.
 
Anders blowing the Chantry.

The number of blood mages on Kirkwall.

Modifié par shepard1038, 24 février 2013 - 12:59 .

[dragonflight288]

But you must also consider, in a realistic view, that the number of blood mages Hawke encounters increases exponentially (and I mean confirmed blood mages, not mages gone rogue) in Act 3, which is after Meredith took charge of the City and became the defacto Viscount.

She may have been claiming to try and prevent blood mages and abominations, but her very efforts drove the mages towards what she was trying to prevent. Varic says it well. "The more she squeezed, the more they resisted. And the more they resisted, the more she squeezed."

In my mind, Meredith was flouting her duty. Under the most technicalities, did she have the legal authority (normally you require the permission of a Grand Cleric) to call for the Right of Annulment. But I thought her arguments for justifying it were flimsy at best. "The mob will demand blood."

That was her only reason given for calling for the death of every man, woman, and child in the Circle. But the guilty party was right in front of her, admitting to the crime, and the Circle wasn't even involved with blowing up the Chantry.

[Plaintiff]

I think it's hilarious how people constantly call Anders whiny. How dare anybody care about the oppression of others, right?

At least he has serious concerns, and isn't just complaining about disliking the personalities of fictional characters.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 24 février 2013 - 04:43 .

[DKJaigen]

Hazegurl wrote...

I just finished my first playthrough of DA2. It's not as good as the frist but i got into it after a while. I hear a lot of people sided with the mages at the end but I picked the Templars. Namely because there was just too many mages resorting to blood magic to get their way or allowing themselves to be possessed by demons.  At first i was mostly pro mage with bits of pro Templar spinkled in there but honestly, Anders contributed to a large part in why i sided with the Templars. Not my only reason but a big chuck of it. I used him as my healer so i took him nearly everywhere with me and all he did was constantly b*tch about the plight of mages. A mage turns to blood magic and kill a host of people then it was "See what they make us do?!?!" well no I don't! Fenris was right when he asked when are mages going to hold themselves accountable for their crimes. While I thought the Templars were too harsh, i found many more of them to be more sympathetic than the mages.  I even turned down Anders request to let him sneak into the chantry cause it became apparent that he was a lying sack of crap when I started to question him.  I also enjoyed killing him for his crime and I'm glad there was no mention of him in the epilouge. People remember the champion not his sorry ****.

Anyway, Although I sided with the Templars I still spared the mages that begged for their lives and pretty much knew Merideth was going to betray me cause she was just far too insane to be trusted. So glad I was able to kill her too.

So, I know this topic is late but did anyone else side with the Templars and felt it was a good choice instead of just for the trophy or to be "evil"?

You just condemned hundreds innocent man ,women and childeren to death because out of spite and anger. With no rationality or pragmatism involved. I may sound very harsh but we use the police and judges so that people like you are never allowed to judge over others. If we did the chaos suffering and anarchy would be tremendous.

Their are valid reasons to support the templars but this is not one of them. In fact i find more then a bit repulsive.

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...

I think it's hilarious how people constantly call Anders whiny. How dare anybody care about the oppression of others, right?

If by "opression" you mean a system that grants mages living conditions far above that of the average thedosian, sure.
I could also call him unrealistic, uncompromising, terrorist, hypocrite.

At least he has serious concerns, and isn't just complaining about disliking the personalities of fictional characters.

I'd ask you not to make assumption about the personal lives of forumites.

[Plaintiff]

Oh joy, I was wondering when we'd get to do this dance again.

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I think it's hilarious how people constantly call Anders whiny. How dare anybody care about the oppression of others, right?

If by "opression" you mean a system that grants mages living conditions far above that of the average thedosian, sure.

Quality of lving conditions is irrelevent to whether or not something is oppression. For the love of god, open a dictionary.

I could also call him unrealistic, uncompromising, terrorist, hypocrite.

You could. You could also call him a sentient sock puppet and it would make the same amount of sense.

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
Quality of lving conditions is irrelevent to whether or not something is oppression. For the love of god, open dictionary.

"Opression: the exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner."
Living conditions have an effect on both the cruelty and burden of the system while their magic powers have an effect on the justice of said system.

You could. You could also call him a sentient sock puppet and it would make the same amount of sense.

Unrealistic:
"We need to be powered to police ourselves." But history has shown that groups of people in positions of authority will often disregard crimes commited by their kin against those different. Therefore, it is unrealistic to expect mages to police themselves.
"Templars are forcing our hand." But the reality is that lots of things in life force one's hand. It is unrealistic to expect mages to have troubleless lives so as to not be dangerous.

Uncompromising:
"I removed the chance of compromise because there is no compromise."
I believe this is self explanatory.

Terrorist:
He destroyed the Chantry so as to instill fear in the hearts of normal people over what mages can do which would lead to violence and instill fear in the hearts of mages over what mundanes will do.
He used fear to bring about social change he deems desirable. That is the very definition of a terrorist.

Hypocrite:
"Are you sure you want to be with Fenris, he let one bad experience color his views." Fenris was sytematically abused his entire life like Anders claims the mages are. To be concerned with their plight but disregard that of the Tevinter slaves is hipocrisy.

"All men, women and children in Thedas deserve freedom.
*Hawke sells Fenris to Danarius for ten sovereigns (Judas)*
I can't be the only one who was thinking of that."
Anders claims that all men should be free but then is happy over the enslavement of Fenris.

"We are not all blood mages.
All templars are sadistic monsters who want to Tranquilize every mage."

Anders asks that not all mages be condemned for the actions of a few yet he is ready to assume every templar or figure of authority in the Chantry would be ok with Ser Alrik's "solution".

Modifié par MisterJB, 24 février 2013 - 01:22 .

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...
"Opression: the exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner."
Living conditions have an effect on both the cruelty and burden of the system while their magic powers have an effect on the justice of said system.

With that definition, you might be able to (poorly) argue that the Circles are less oppressive than other oppressive systems.

You could not argue that they are not oppressive.

Unrealistic:
"We need to be powered to police ourselves." But history has shown that groups of people in positions of authority will often disregard crimes commited by their kin against those different. Therefore, it is unrealistic to expect mages to police themselves.

Mages are not kin anymore than all homosexuals are kin, and only a bigot would make such an ignorant assertion. Even if we followed your ridiculous logic, nobody should be allowed to police anybody because we can't risk white people being lenient on other white people, or women being lenient to other women, or gays being lenient to other gays and so on ad infinitum.

"Templars are forcing our hand." But the reality is that lots of things in life force one's hand. It is unrealistic to expect mages to have troubleless lives so as to not be dangerous.

Oh for ****'s sake, not this crap again. The brutality of the Templars is not some unfortunate circumstance that anyone might be expected to face, and comparing the two is moronic. If a tree is struck by lightning and falls on your house, that is just bad luck. If you are taken away from your parents and forced to live in a tower, under the watch of violent bigots, then someone is at fault, and must be punished.

The templars and the Chantry are thinking men and women who must be held accountable for their many misdeeds. They are not random forces of nature.

Uncompromising:
"I removed the chance of compromise because there is no compromise."
I believe this is self explanatory.

The statement is self-evidently correct, if that's what you mean. There is no compromise, there was never any compromise, not under the current system. Any chance of compromise that Elthina or the Chantry represented was nothing but a flimsy illusion, and should've been exposed as such long ago.

That does not mean that Anders is unwilling to compromise, it means that he recognises that there is no hope for compromise. Not to mention, Anders spent seven years unsuccessfully petitioning for change in a totally peaceful way.

Terrorist:
He destroyed the Chantry so as to instill fear in the hearts of normal people over what mages can do which would lead to violence and instill fear in the hearts of mages over what mundanes will do.
He used fear to bring about social change he deems desirable. That is the very definition of a terrorist.

Every act of violence instils fear in somebody, but that does not make all violent acts terrorism. But creating fear was not Anders intent at all. You're making assumptions about his thought process and reasoning that are simply not true. He explains himself quite clearly.

Even if he is a terrorist, I absolutely reject the notion that "terrorism" is automatically wrong. His target was an organization that itself creates and manipulates terror in order to maintain its position of authority. I will not criticize anyone for striking against a genuinely oppressive institution.

Hypocrite:
"Are you sure you want to be with Fenris, he let one bad experience color his views." Fenris was sytematically abused his entire life like Anders claims the mages are. To be concerned with their plight but disregard that of the Tevinter slaves is hipocrisy.

Except at no point in that sentence is Anders disregarding the plight of Tevinter slaves. He is stating that Fenris is unfairly prejudiced against mages, which is absolutely true. Fenris suffered greatly at the hand of Danarius, but that is not an excuse for his general douchery.

"All men, women and children in Thedas deserve freedom.
*Hawke sells Fenris to Danarius for ten sovereigns (Judas)*
I can't be the only one who was thinking of that."
Anders claims that all men should be free but then is happy over the enslavement of Fenris.

Fenris is himself a hypocrite, and not just towards Anders, but to all mages. I don't consider Anders' actions in this instance to be hypocritical, but if they are, then they are more than balanced out by Fenris's own raging hypocrisy. Fenris has no sympathy for mages, even when they suffer cruelty similar to that which was inflicted on him, so why should Anders have a care for Fenris?

"We are not all blood mages.
All templars are sadistic monsters who want to Tranquilize every mage."

At no point does Anders say this.

Being a mage and being a templar are not morally equivalent positions. Mages are born into their powers and then are doomed to either a life of imprisonment or a life of being relentlessly hunted. Templars actively choose to become what they are, and they make that choice, and train for years, knowing full well that the job involves committing unforgiveably cruel acts against fellow human beings. They have plenty of time to reconsider before taking their vows and their first dose of lyrium. Templars have no excuses.

Anders asks that not all mages be condemned for the actions of a few yet he is ready to assume every templar or figure of authority in the Chantry would be ok with Ser Alrik's "solution".

At no point does he do any such thing.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 24 février 2013 - 02:38 .

[dragonflight288]

Being a mage and being a templar are not morally equivalent positions. Mages are born into their powers and then are doomed to either a life of imprisonment or a life of being relentlessly hunted. Templars actively choose to become what they are, and they make that choice, and train for years, knowing full well that the job involves committing unforgiveably cruel acts against fellow human beings. They have plenty of time to reconsider before taking their vows and their first dose of lyrium. Templars have no excuses.

One small correction.

Alistair makes it clear that being a templar was a choice made for him by others. It's also implied that many of the orphans the chantry takes in are raised to be priests and priestesses or templars.

But for the most part, I agree with your post.

[Plaintiff]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Being a mage and being a templar are not morally equivalent positions. Mages are born into their powers and then are doomed to either a life of imprisonment or a life of being relentlessly hunted. Templars actively choose to become what they are, and they make that choice, and train for years, knowing full well that the job involves committing unforgiveably cruel acts against fellow human beings. They have plenty of time to reconsider before taking their vows and their first dose of lyrium. Templars have no excuses.

One small correction.

Alistair makes it clear that being a templar was a choice made for him by others. It's also implied that many of the orphans the chantry takes in are raised to be priests and priestesses or templars.

But for the most part, I agree with your post.

Well, if the Chantry does pressgang orphans into service as Templars, then that's just another reason it needs to be burned to the ground.

But I'm not certain that Alistair couldn't have left if he wanted to, even if he had to run away in the dead of night. Although it's true that leaving the only home he knows would be a big ask, and he would not have a whole lot of other options. Join the army or a militia, become a freelance mercenary... that's pretty much it.

But I'm confident that, had he become a templar, Alistair would've soon quit, even at the risk of poverty and lyrium withdrawal. He is not the sort of person to accept injustice of any kind, and he's fascinated by magic and wants to learn more about it. I don't think he's aware of the true nature of the Circles, and I bet he would've been horrified.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 24 février 2013 - 02:37 .

[dragonflight288]

Plaintiff wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Being a mage and being a templar are not morally equivalent positions. Mages are born into their powers and then are doomed to either a life of imprisonment or a life of being relentlessly hunted. Templars actively choose to become what they are, and they make that choice, and train for years, knowing full well that the job involves committing unforgiveably cruel acts against fellow human beings. They have plenty of time to reconsider before taking their vows and their first dose of lyrium. Templars have no excuses.

One small correction.

Alistair makes it clear that being a templar was a choice made for him by others. It's also implied that many of the orphans the chantry takes in are raised to be priests and priestesses or templars.

But for the most part, I agree with your post.

Well, if the Chantry does pressgang orphans into service as Templars, then that's just another reason it needs to be burned to the ground.

But I'm not certain that Alistair couldn't have left if he wanted to, even if he had to run away in the dead of night. Although it's true that he would not have a whole lot of other options. Join the army or a militia, become a freelance mercenary...

But I'm confident that, had he become a templar, Alistair would've soon quit, even at the risk of suffering lyrium withdrawal. He is not the sort of person to accept injustice of any kind, and he's fascinated by magic and wants to learn more about it. I don't think he's aware of the true nature of the Circles, and I bet he would've been horrified.

He does say he was present for one harrowing, and they had to kill the girl. He says he lost all taste for being a templar after that.

And yeah, I think he would've quite as well. But Alistair didn't exactly have a lot of options to turn to.

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
With that definition, you might be able to (poorly) argue that the Circles are less oppressive than otehr oppressive systems.

You could not argue that they are not oppressive.

I see people controlling that which they have good reason to fear. Not opression.

Mages are not kin anymore than all homosexuals are kin, and only a bigot would make such an ignorant assertion. Even if we followed your ridiculous logic, nobody should be allowed to police anybody because we can't risk white people being lenient on other white people, or women being lenient to other women, or gays being lenient to other gays and so on ad infinitum.

And only an extremely naive person would actually believe that ethnicity plays no part in how people treat each other.
To avoid using real world examples, I'm going to use humans and elves. In most Andrastrean cities, there are no elves in the city guard. This leads to them having to rely on the goodwill of humans if they want justice. And most humans just don't care what happens to elves.
The same thing applies to mages policing mages without the templars which is Anders' suggestion. Mages would ignore crimes commited by other mages against mundanes.

Oh for ****'s sake, not this crap again. The brutality of the Templars is not some unfortunate circumstance that anyone might be expected to face, and comparing the two is moronic. If a tree is struck by lightning and falls on your house, that is just bad luck. If you are taken away from your parents and forced to live in a tower, under the watch of violent bigots, then someone is at fault, and must be punished.

The templars and the Chantry are thinking men and women who must be held accountable for their many misdeeds. They are not random forces of nature.

And I mentioned no random forces of nature whatsoever. What I said is that templars are not the sole source of despearation in the world which is true and that desperation can lead to even the best mages abusing her or her power which is also true.
if what it takes for mages to not be dangerous is for them to lead a life without troubles, then it's unrealistic to expect magic to not be dangerous.

The statement is self-evidently correct, if that's what you mean. There is no compromise, there was never any compromise, not under the current system. Any chance of compromise that Elthina or the Chantry represented was nothing but a flimsy illusion, and should've been exposed as such long ago.

That does not mean that Anders is unwilling to compromise, it means that he recognises that there is no hope for compromise. Not to mention, Anders spent seven years unsuccessfully petitioning for change in a totally peaceful way.

So, you do not deny he is uncompromising, you just agree with him.

Every act of violence instils fear in somebody, but that does not make all violent acts terrorism. But creating fear was not Anders intent at all. You're making assumptions about his thought process and reasoning that are simply not true. He explains himself quite clearly.

Even if he is a terrorist, I absolutely reject the notion that "terrorism" is automatically wrong. His target was an organization that itself creates and manipulates terror in order to maintain its position of authority. I will not criticize anyone for striking against a genuinely oppressive institution.

Acts of violence whose very purpose is to create fear to bring change; which is exactly what Anders did; are terrorism.
Once again, you can't deny what Anders is. You're just ok with it.

Except at no point in that sentence is Anders disregarding the plight of Tevinter slaves. He is stating that Fenris is unfairly prejudiced against mages, which is absolutely true. Fenris suffered greatly at the hand of Danarius, but that is not an excuse for his general douchery.

Fenris is the only person making any damn sense in that city.
First of all, Fenris did not let "a single bad experience" affect his world view. He suffered systematic abuses by mages his entire life and saw numerous non mages in Tevinter being subjcted to the same.
Anders is being an hypocrite because he is disregarding the suffering of slaves like Fenris while whinning constantly about the Circle System.

Fenris is himself a hypocrite, and not just towards Anders, but to all mages. I don't consider Anders' actions in this instance to be hypocritical, but if they are, then they are more than balanced out by Fenris's own raging hypocrisy. Fenris has no sympathy for mages, even when they suffer cruelty similar to that which was inflicted on him, so why should Anders have a care for Fenris?

Hypocrisy delivered against other "hypocrites"; Fenris is no hypocrite; is somehow less hypocrisy? Nonsense.

At no point does Anders say this.

Except around three times. And that is without counting all the times he warps on about destroying the templars and Chantry.

Being a mage and being a templar are not morally equivalent positions. Mages are born into their powers and then are doomed to either a life of imprisonment or a life of being relentlessly hunted. Templars actively choose to become what they are, and they make that choice, and train for years, knowing full well that the job involves committing unforgiveably cruel acts against fellow human beings. They have plenty of time to reconsider before taking their vows and their first dose of lyrium. Templars have no excuses.

Templars are performing a necessary service which protects both mundanes and mages while mantaining a stable society. Many of them, such as Ser Bryant, are good people simply trying to help others.
It's ridiculous to believe that all of them would support the "Tranquil Solution". Anders judges all templars by the actions of a few while asking for mages to not be all judged by the actions of a few. He is an hypocrite.

[DPSSOC]

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
"Opression: the exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner."
Living conditions have an effect on both the cruelty and burden of the system while their magic powers have an effect on the justice of said system.

With that definition, you might be able to (poorly) argue that the Circles are less oppressive than otehr oppressive systems.

You could not argue that they are not oppressive.

With that definition one could argue the Circles are less oppressive than most nations, Orlais for example.

Plaintiff wrote...

Hypocrite:
"Are you sure you want to be with Fenris, he let one bad experience color his views." Fenris was sytematically abused his entire life like Anders claims the mages are. To be concerned with their plight but disregard that of the Tevinter slaves is hipocrisy.

Except at no point in that sentence is Anders disregarding the plight of Tevinter slaves. He is stating that Fenris is unfairly prejudiced against mages, which is absolutely true. Fenris suffered greatly at the hand of Danarius, but that is not an excuse for his general douchery.

But it does Anders?  That's the hypocrisy.  Anders uses his experiences to justify his position but does not extend the same courtesy to Fenris.  Anders was mistreated by the Templars (largely for being a troublemaker but still) as were other mages this justifies his stance on the Templars and the Circle.  Fenris was mistreated by mages (not just Danarius) as were other slaves this justifies his stance on Mages.  Anders disregards Fenris stance for the same reason he feels his own is justified, a lifetime of mistreatment.

Plaintiff wrote...

Anders asks that not all mages be condemned for the actions of a few yet he is ready to assume every templar or figure of authority in the Chantry would be ok with Ser Alrik's "solution".

At no point does he do any such thing.

Except when he asks you to kill Thrask solely for being a Templar because a group of mages, who just tried to kill you mind, need him dead.  Anders asks that mages not all be painted with the same brush but he does so with the Templars, by his actions if not his words.

On topic I've never actually sided with the Templars at the end.  I'm Pro-Templar and Pro-Circle but at the end game decision Meredith is just wrong in her actions.  If there'd been some indication of help from within the Circle I could accept it but without that her decision to Annul the Circle is just wrong.

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...
It's ridiculous to believe that all of them would support the "Tranquil Solution". Anders judges all templars by the actions of a few while asking for mages to not be all judged by the actions of a few. He is an hypocrite.

On the contrary, Anders judges every templar for choosing to become a templar, in full knowledge of what the position entails. Even then, he is capable of acknowledging that not every templar is a horrible person. Something Fenris is not capable of admitting in regard to mages or magic.

If someone willingly joins the Westboro Baptist Church, or some other disgusting group that seeks to oppress others, then they are a terrible person, regardless of whatever excuses they use to justify it to themselves, and will continue to be a terrible person until they shed their ignorance and quit that organization. The same applies to those individuals who willingly enlist with the Templars.

[DPSSOC]

Plaintiff wrote...
Even then, he is capable of acknowledging that not every templar is a horrible person. Something Fenris is not capable of admitting in regard to mages or magic.

Not true actually.  He's willing to admit Hawke's alright (if a mage).  In fact as early as Night Terrors he notes Hawke as the exception.  If you bring him along and save Feynriel he says something to the effect that not all mages are like Hawke.

[Plaintiff]

DPSSOC wrote...
With that definition one could argue the Circles are less oppressive than most nations, Orlais for example.

But what little comforts the Circles have, the mages earn for themselves, through the provision of magical goods and services. The Chantry seeks only to contain them, not to make them comfortable or educate them (which it is incapable of doing anyway, without the aid of already learned mages and texts on magic that mages undoubtedly wrote).

Plaintiff wrote...
But it does Anders?  That's the hypocrisy.  Anders uses his experiences to justify his position but does not extend the same courtesy to Fenris.  Anders was mistreated by the Templars (largely for being a troublemaker but still) as were other mages this justifies his stance on the Templars and the Circle.  Fenris was mistreated by mages (not just Danarius) as were other slaves this justifies his stance on Mages.  Anders disregards Fenris stance for the same reason he feels his own is justified, a lifetime of mistreatment.

The difference being that Fenris is judging an entire group of people based on what they were born as, while Anders is judging an entire group of people based on what they choose to be.

Of course, not everyone chooses to be a templar, and those individuals deserve some sympathy, but it's unlikely that Anders knows that.

Except when he asks you to kill Thrask solely for being a Templar because a group of mages, who just tried to kill you mind, need him dead.  Anders asks that mages not all be painted with the same brush but he does so with the Templars, by his actions if not his words.

Except the remaining mages in the cave played no part in trying to kill Hawke. If I recall correctly, Anders is stating that killing "just one templar" is perhaps preferable to killing three or four (apparently) innocent mages. It's an acceptable stance to take, if you consider all lives to be inherently equal.

But Anders also accepts lying to the Thrask instead. And later he admits that Thrask is not a bad person.

Though it's worth noting that Thrask's sympathy for mages stems from the fact that his daughter was a mage. Were it not for that, I doubt he would be as willing to seek peaceful solutions.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 24 février 2013 - 03:04 .

[DPSSOC]

Plaintiff wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
But it does Anders?  That's the hypocrisy.  Anders uses his experiences to justify his position but does not extend the same courtesy to Fenris.  Anders was mistreated by the Templars (largely for being a troublemaker but still) as were other mages this justifies his stance on the Templars and the Circle.  Fenris was mistreated by mages (not just Danarius) as were other slaves this justifies his stance on Mages.  Anders disregards Fenris stance for the same reason he feels his own is justified, a lifetime of mistreatment.

The difference being that Fenris is judging an entire group of people based on what they were born as, while Anders is judging an entire group of people based on what they choose to be.

So is Fenris.  People like Danarius and Hadrianna were born mages, they chose to become monsters, as has every other mage Fenris has come in contact with before reaching Kirkwall.  He admits that mages can be good people but he also believes that they won't, that the power they wield makes being a ****** too easy and they won't be able to resist the temptation.  It's cynical and it's unfair but it's as justified as Anders views on Templars.

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
On the contrary, Anders judges every templar for choosing to become a templar, in full knowledge of what the position entails. Even then, he is capable of acknowledging that not every templar is a horrible person. Something Fenris is not capable of admitting in regard to mages or magic.

If someone willingly joins the Westboro Baptist Church, or some other disgusting group that seeks to oppress others, then they are a terrible person, regardless of whatever excuses they use to justify it to themselves, and will continue to be a terrible person until they shed their ignorance and quit that organization. The same applies to those individuals who willingly enlist with the Templars.

What the position entails is helping people, protecting them. The idea that every templar, Grand Cleric and even the Divine would support Tranqulizing all mages in ridiculous and yet that is what Anders believes in.
He is judging all people who join the templars by the actions of Ser Alrik while asking that not all mages be judged by the actions of Tahrone or Danarius. That makes him an hypocrite.

Oh and Fenris flat out says he is sure there are mages in Tevinter who are good people who struggle against temptation. He simply believes all eventually give in to temptation which is a reasonable stance.

[TEWR]

Dwarves.

[MisterJB]

Sometimes I envy them. They don't have to put up with this arcane sh*t. There, there is not so much ambiguity. You just point to the Darkspawn and start killing.

Modifié par MisterJB, 24 février 2013 - 03:43 .

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

Sometimes I envy them. They don't have to put up with this arcane sh*t. There, there is not so much ambiguity. You just point to the Darkspawn and start killing.

Then you have the silly caste system and who is or isn't allowed to fight and all that fun stuff.

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

Sometimes I envy them. They don't have to put up with this arcane sh*t. There, there is not so much ambiguity. You just point to the Darkspawn and start killing.

Tell that to the poor sods that where turned into golems.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 24 février 2013 - 10:08 .

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
On the contrary, Anders judges every templar for choosing to become a templar, in full knowledge of what the position entails. Even then, he is capable of acknowledging that not every templar is a horrible person. Something Fenris is not capable of admitting in regard to mages or magic.

If someone willingly joins the Westboro Baptist Church, or some other disgusting group that seeks to oppress others, then they are a terrible person, regardless of whatever excuses they use to justify it to themselves, and will continue to be a terrible person until they shed their ignorance and quit that organization. The same applies to those individuals who willingly enlist with the Templars.

What the position entails is helping people, protecting them. The idea that every templar, Grand Cleric and even the Divine would support Tranqulizing all mages in ridiculous and yet that is what Anders believes in.

Ser Cullen wasn't exactly opposed to the idea, and while Alrik's idea was suggested, it was not treated as ridiculous as it should have been.  Anders fears in this regard are well founded.  There IS apparently a strong political segment in the chantry that would love to tranquil all mages.

He is judging all people who join the templars by the actions of Ser Alrik while asking that not all mages be judged by the actions of Tahrone or Danarius. That makes him an hypocrite.

Actually he isn't.  He admits that while Meredith might be misguided, she genuinely believes she is helping the greater good.  He also is willing and eager to take the evidence before the Grand Cleric.  Anders is finding fault with the Templar Order and the Circle system, and he is absolutely correct in doing so.  I also note that people don't chose to become mages.  They DO chose to become Templars.  That is a very important difference that you constantly gloss over.

Oh and Fenris flat out says he is sure there are mages in Tevinter who are good people who struggle against temptation. He simply believes all eventually give in to temptation which is a reasonable stance.

Actually it is the very definition of unreasonable.  Fenris is assuming that all mages regardless of who they are will always fall to temptation.  Replace "African-American" (or rather the racial slur for the same) for mage, and you have a classic bigot.  Fenris IS a bigot when it comes to mages.  This is perfectly understandable given his background, but nothing that remotely resembles reasonable...and Fenris proves over and over again that he can not challenge this bigotry within him (at best he can admit that this particular person "isn't like most mages" without softening his position against mages at all).  This is also a classic sympton of bigtory, i.e. "Joe saved my life so he's ok, unlike all the other [racial slur that Joe happens to belong to]".

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
Actually it is the very definition of unreasonable.  Fenris is assuming that all mages regardless of who they are will always fall to temptation.  Replace "African-American" (or rather the racial slur for the same) for mage, and you have a classic bigot.

Replace mages with "people" and you have me. Europeans, native americans, asians, indians, africans. Regardless of your ethnicity, nationality, upbriging, etc, all people everywhere are open to temptation and have a breaking point.
It will take less for some, more for others but there is not a single person in the world immune to corruption.
Fenris does not believe mages are more prone to failing than other people; he simply believes that power corrupts and that mages have an immense ammount of it. And he is right.