462 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

LOL. I'm the one who said I wouldn't call Anders a psychopath.  Are you up past your bedtime?  I'm certainly well past mine.  

Well my sleep schedule's been messed up for weeks now, so I'll be up for another 4-6 hours despite it being close to 1 A.M.

But I'm still confused. I have no idea who's saying what or what's being said or... anything. He/she called Anders a psycho for blowing up a building saying that anyone that does that is one, then said he/she didn't consider him such, so I'm seriously confused by what he/she is trying to do now.

[TEWR]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

If I recall Wynne is the only mage that called him a madman in Asunder.

Really? Huh, all the wiki noted when I read that bit about Anders was simply that he was remembered as a madman. I'd think the wiki would be diligent enough to differentiate one Mage's opinion on Anders from the overwhelming majority of Mages' opinions on the man.

I haven't actually read the DA novels, sadly.

[IanPolaris]

For the record I am about as pro-mage a poster as you will find here. I kill Anders every time. I can't get past the fact, that whether is cause is just or not, he committed an open act of terrorism, and makes it clear it would do it again because he wants a war. Anders may well be right that there is no peace and conflict is inevitable, but that doesn't mean I let a Mass Murderer live.

The reason I do it is because the people that should be the authorities (Meredith, Orsino, AVELINE) show a shocking lack of interest in seeing that justice is done to the actual guilty party.

-Polaris

[-TC1989-]

Silfren wrote...

-TC1989- wrote...

Well then, is it because he is a mage or does it simply take more than that to catergorize them as a psycho to you? I'm sorry but when anyone whether it be a Templar, Bandit, Knight, or Mage gathers up ingrediants and makes an explosion simply to wipe a building out, and everyone with it, thats a psycho. Saying he committed all those murders simply because he's a sad, lost, broken man is pretty damn naive. I guess you'll say next that Quentin had reasonable motive against Leandra... 

Maybe I'm just too tired to be patient with this crap, but I'm sick of you insinuating that I automatically find sympathy with someone JUST because they're a mage and I love mages.  Yes, I sympathize with mages.  But that's because I think they get the sh*t end of the stick without adequate justification, and I have seen no evidence that the Circle system in its present form is the only possible means of regulating magic that could ever possibly work.

I didn't say Anders was sad or lost.  I did say he was desperate and broken.  There is something of a difference, so there's no need to snidely suggest I just think Anders is a lonely man who needed a hug. But I should clarify that I don't say that he blew up the Chantry because he was those things.  I think he blew it up because he needed to start a war and so he picked the best military target available to him.  I said he was desperate and broken as opposed to being a psychopath, but I don't think those qualities are what led him to his opening salvo. 

Newsflash: A person does not have to be crazy to commit violence.  They could be crazy, but they certainly don't have to be. 

So when your broken, you weren't sad? When your desperate, you were not at all lost? Again you are way too literal to have a conversation with. You know what I meant, your just stuck with your opinion that Templars have and never had a right to watch over mages despite what Thedas used to be like.

[IanPolaris]

-TC1989- wrote...


So when your broken, you weren't sad? When your desperate, you were not at all lost? Again you are way too literal to have a conversation with. You know what I meant, your just stuck with your opinion that Templars have and never had a right to watch over mages despite what Thedas used to be like.

None of that means you are insane (a legal not a mental term).  Anders was perfectly sane.  He knew that he committed mass murder and he knew it was wrong, and did it anyway.

Anders may be angry, upset, even  broken, but it is not insane.  He's not even close.  Meredith is the one doing the "Lunatic Fringe" at this point, not Anders.

-Polaris

[Silfren]

Face of Evil wrote...

I can appreciate his reasons for doing what he did and I'll gladly defend the Circle, but I've never spared Anders. He doesn't get to murder old ladies, martyr the entire Circle and force Hawke out of his home AND THEN skip town so he can play Apostate Pancho Villa for the rest of his days. F**k that s**t.

I nearly always spare Anders.  I've killed him a couple times, but it never sits well with me. 

Generally I agree with what he did because I don't see his act as one of terrorism but one of war.  I really don't to get into a really long, drawn-out discussion on this detail, but I'll go ahead and say it: The Chantry was a military target, and so was Elthina.  Anders didn't just pick some sweet little unassuming harmless old lady to kill, he targeted the second-highest ranking official of the Chantry. 

Sometimes I spare him while playing a Hawke that agrees with what he did.  Other times, I play a Hawke who realizes that Anders needs to atone, that giving him death is the easy way out.  Why should Anders get to die and avoid taking responsibility?  As Merrill says, he needs to make amends, and he can't do that dead.  Especially when death--freedom--is precisely what he wants from Hawke at that juncture.

Then of course there are those playthroughs where Anders says he can't wait to be executed because the sooner he dies the sooner his name becomes a rallying cry.  A Hawke who takes issue with that has reason enough to spare Anders, out of spite if nothing else.

Modifié par Silfren, 07 mars 2013 - 07:12 .

[-TC1989-]

IanPolaris wrote...

For the record I am about as pro-mage a poster as you will find here. I kill Anders every time. I can't get past the fact, that whether is cause is just or not, he committed an open act of terrorism, and makes it clear it would do it again because he wants a war. Anders may well be right that there is no peace and conflict is inevitable, but that doesn't mean I let a Mass Murderer live.

The reason I do it is because the people that should be the authorities (Meredith, Orsino, AVELINE) show a shocking lack of interest in seeing that justice is done to the actual guilty party.

-Polaris

By the maker thank you sir. That is what I'm saying. Anders for sure had a reason to be upset, his friend was made tranquil for next to no reason. But what he ended up doing is just unforgivable. Terrorism has no place anywhere, and if it was Varric/Fenris/Isabela, I'd put them all to the sword. Being a mage alone doesn't buy you sympathy in that extent.

Modifié par -TC1989-, 07 mars 2013 - 06:56 .

[Rinshikai10]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

If I recall Wynne is the only mage that called him a madman in Asunder.

Really? Huh, all the wiki noted when I read that bit about Anders was simply that he was remembered as a madman. I'd think the wiki would be diligent enough to differentiate one Mage's opinion on Anders from the overwhelming majority of Mages' opinions on the man.

I haven't actually read the DA novels, sadly.

Remember the wiki is a fan base site that can be edited by just about anyone. I feel that much of want is there is very generalized.

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Silfren wrote...

LOL. I'm the one who said I wouldn't call Anders a psychopath.  Are you up past your bedtime?  I'm certainly well past mine.  

Well my sleep schedule's been messed up for weeks now, so I'll be up for another 4-6 hours despite it being close to 1 A.M.

But I'm still confused. I have no idea who's saying what or what's being said or... anything. He/she called Anders a psycho for blowing up a building saying that anyone that does that is one, then said he/she didn't consider him such, so I'm seriously confused by what he/she is trying to do now.

I'm sorry your sleep is messed up.  Mine was pretty out of whack too for several weeks.  Me, I'm...really just too lazy to get up and go to bed. 

But I'm pretty sure part of your confusion comes from mixing up our posts.  They didn't say Anders wasn't a psychopath, I'm the one who says he ain't.

ETA: And I see the problem, now.  The post where it appears they're saying that they don't consider Anders a psychopath..they didn't use quotations or state that they were doing so, but they were quoting me.

Modifié par Silfren, 07 mars 2013 - 07:03 .

[-TC1989-]

For what its worth Silfren, I was never trying to argue with you. The way you presented yourself just seemed naive and alittle biased. And my decisions in games reflect what I'd do in real life. If someone commits terrorism, thats the point of no return, especially when they have no remorse for the act they just committed. But I'm calling a truce, lets just call this petty squabble quits, okay? lol

[Silfren]

-TC1989- wrote...

Silfren wrote...

-TC1989- wrote...

Well then, is it because he is a mage or does it simply take more than that to catergorize them as a psycho to you? I'm sorry but when anyone whether it be a Templar, Bandit, Knight, or Mage gathers up ingrediants and makes an explosion simply to wipe a building out, and everyone with it, thats a psycho. Saying he committed all those murders simply because he's a sad, lost, broken man is pretty damn naive. I guess you'll say next that Quentin had reasonable motive against Leandra... 

Maybe I'm just too tired to be patient with this crap, but I'm sick of you insinuating that I automatically find sympathy with someone JUST because they're a mage and I love mages.  Yes, I sympathize with mages.  But that's because I think they get the sh*t end of the stick without adequate justification, and I have seen no evidence that the Circle system in its present form is the only possible means of regulating magic that could ever possibly work.

I didn't say Anders was sad or lost.  I did say he was desperate and broken.  There is something of a difference, so there's no need to snidely suggest I just think Anders is a lonely man who needed a hug. But I should clarify that I don't say that he blew up the Chantry because he was those things.  I think he blew it up because he needed to start a war and so he picked the best military target available to him.  I said he was desperate and broken as opposed to being a psychopath, but I don't think those qualities are what led him to his opening salvo. 

Newsflash: A person does not have to be crazy to commit violence.  They could be crazy, but they certainly don't have to be. 

So when your broken, you weren't sad? When your desperate, you were not at all lost? Again you are way too literal to have a conversation with. You know what I meant, your just stuck with your opinion that Templars have and never had a right to watch over mages despite what Thedas used to be like.

I'm not THAT literal.  But if I mean that someone is sad, I say sad.  I try to be precise with my words for this very reason, especially since I know there are many posters on these forums for whom English is not a first language.  No, I don't think that desperate is synonymous with lost, and I don't think that broken is synonymous with sad. 

Granted, I'm better at it when I'm not sleep-deprived, but still...

[Silfren]

-TC1989- wrote...

For what its worth Silfren, I was never trying to argue with you. The way you presented yourself just seemed naive and alittle biased. And my decisions in games reflect what I'd do in real life. If someone commits terrorism, thats the point of no return, especially when they have no remorse for the act they just committed. But I'm calling a truce, lets just call this petty squabble quits, okay? lol

Maybe seeking clarification first before starting in on the snide insinuations would help.  Then again I was pretty hostile in my first couple of posts, too, so I can't really complain, I guess.  Truce accepted.

[TEWR]

As Meredith says, he needs to make amends, and he can't do that dead.

Merrill, Merrill says that! =P

Meredith's too busy doing a dance step to her slashing the Mages, all with a grin plastered on her face as she sings the Chant of Light.

Truce accepted.

THERE CAN BE NO PEACE!!!

*blows up BSN*

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 07 mars 2013 - 07:15 .

[-TC1989-]

Silfren wrote...

-TC1989- wrote...

Silfren wrote...

-TC1989- wrote...

Well then, is it because he is a mage or does it simply take more than that to catergorize them as a psycho to you? I'm sorry but when anyone whether it be a Templar, Bandit, Knight, or Mage gathers up ingrediants and makes an explosion simply to wipe a building out, and everyone with it, thats a psycho. Saying he committed all those murders simply because he's a sad, lost, broken man is pretty damn naive. I guess you'll say next that Quentin had reasonable motive against Leandra... 

Maybe I'm just too tired to be patient with this crap, but I'm sick of you insinuating that I automatically find sympathy with someone JUST because they're a mage and I love mages.  Yes, I sympathize with mages.  But that's because I think they get the sh*t end of the stick without adequate justification, and I have seen no evidence that the Circle system in its present form is the only possible means of regulating magic that could ever possibly work.

I didn't say Anders was sad or lost.  I did say he was desperate and broken.  There is something of a difference, so there's no need to snidely suggest I just think Anders is a lonely man who needed a hug. But I should clarify that I don't say that he blew up the Chantry because he was those things.  I think he blew it up because he needed to start a war and so he picked the best military target available to him.  I said he was desperate and broken as opposed to being a psychopath, but I don't think those qualities are what led him to his opening salvo. 

Newsflash: A person does not have to be crazy to commit violence.  They could be crazy, but they certainly don't have to be. 

So when your broken, you weren't sad? When your desperate, you were not at all lost? Again you are way too literal to have a conversation with. You know what I meant, your just stuck with your opinion that Templars have and never had a right to watch over mages despite what Thedas used to be like.

I'm not THAT literal.  But if I mean that someone is sad, I say sad.  I try to be precise with my words for this very reason, especially since I know there are many posters on these forums for whom English is not a first language.  No, I don't think that desperate is synonymous with lost, and I don't think that broken is synonymous with sad. 

Granted, I'm better at it when I'm not sleep-deprived, but still...

Good point, I didn't consider that. English is my native language, so when words like that are said, I'll look I guess "beyond" the meaning to further explain myself if that makes sense? But again I didn't take that into account that people that don't have a good grasp of english come here, and that's my fault.

[Silfren]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


[quote]As Meredith says, he needs to make amends, and he can't do that dead.[/quote]

Merrill, Merrill says that! =P

Meredith's to busy doing a dance step to her slashing the Mages, all with a grin plastered on her face as she sings the Chant of Light.[/quote]

I know, I know, I just read back and saw that.  It's fixed now I swear.  What can I say?  Three letters in I forgot who I was typing about...it isn't my fault the two women share the same first three letters!  Don't Tranquil me!


[quote]Truce accepted.[/quote]THERE CAN BE NO PEACE!!![/quote]

Were you the one who posted that evil gif of Orsino and Meredith?  You know I'll never forgive you for that.

[-TC1989-]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

As Meredith says, he needs to make amends, and he can't do that dead.

Merrill, Merrill says that! =P

Meredith's too busy doing a dance step to her slashing the Mages, all with a grin plastered on her face as she sings the Chant of Light.

Truce accepted.

THERE CAN BE NO PEACE!!!

*blows up BSN*

Just clarification here. Next time you ask for some form of proof, and someone presents it. Don't purposely read between the lines to be "right" heh

[Silfren]

-TC1989- wrote...

Silfren wrote...

-TC1989- wrote...

Silfren wrote...

-TC1989- wrote...

Well then, is it because he is a mage or does it simply take more than that to catergorize them as a psycho to you? I'm sorry but when anyone whether it be a Templar, Bandit, Knight, or Mage gathers up ingrediants and makes an explosion simply to wipe a building out, and everyone with it, thats a psycho. Saying he committed all those murders simply because he's a sad, lost, broken man is pretty damn naive. I guess you'll say next that Quentin had reasonable motive against Leandra... 

Maybe I'm just too tired to be patient with this crap, but I'm sick of you insinuating that I automatically find sympathy with someone JUST because they're a mage and I love mages.  Yes, I sympathize with mages.  But that's because I think they get the sh*t end of the stick without adequate justification, and I have seen no evidence that the Circle system in its present form is the only possible means of regulating magic that could ever possibly work.

I didn't say Anders was sad or lost.  I did say he was desperate and broken.  There is something of a difference, so there's no need to snidely suggest I just think Anders is a lonely man who needed a hug. But I should clarify that I don't say that he blew up the Chantry because he was those things.  I think he blew it up because he needed to start a war and so he picked the best military target available to him.  I said he was desperate and broken as opposed to being a psychopath, but I don't think those qualities are what led him to his opening salvo. 

Newsflash: A person does not have to be crazy to commit violence.  They could be crazy, but they certainly don't have to be. 

So when your broken, you weren't sad? When your desperate, you were not at all lost? Again you are way too literal to have a conversation with. You know what I meant, your just stuck with your opinion that Templars have and never had a right to watch over mages despite what Thedas used to be like.

I'm not THAT literal.  But if I mean that someone is sad, I say sad.  I try to be precise with my words for this very reason, especially since I know there are many posters on these forums for whom English is not a first language.  No, I don't think that desperate is synonymous with lost, and I don't think that broken is synonymous with sad. 

Granted, I'm better at it when I'm not sleep-deprived, but still...

Good point, I didn't consider that. English is my native language, so when words like that are said, I'll look I guess "beyond" the meaning to further explain myself if that makes sense? But again I didn't take that into account that people that don't have a good grasp of english come here, and that's my fault.

By the way, it has never been my position that mages should be totally free of oversight.  If you'll scroll several posts back you'll see several posts wherein I talk about that very issue with The Evil Writer Redux and...somebody else?

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

As Meredith says, he needs to make amends, and he can't do that dead.

Merrill, Merrill says that! =P

Meredith's too busy doing a dance step to her slashing the Mages, all with a grin plastered on her face as she sings the Chant of Light.

Truce accepted.

THERE CAN BE NO PEACE!!!

*blows up BSN*

I swear to all the gods, I see a dragon on the right side of this image. Tell me that's not Flemeth!

[-TC1989-]

Silfren wrote...

-TC1989- wrote...

Silfren wrote...

-TC1989- wrote...

Silfren wrote...

-TC1989- wrote...

Well then, is it because he is a mage or does it simply take more than that to catergorize them as a psycho to you? I'm sorry but when anyone whether it be a Templar, Bandit, Knight, or Mage gathers up ingrediants and makes an explosion simply to wipe a building out, and everyone with it, thats a psycho. Saying he committed all those murders simply because he's a sad, lost, broken man is pretty damn naive. I guess you'll say next that Quentin had reasonable motive against Leandra... 

Maybe I'm just too tired to be patient with this crap, but I'm sick of you insinuating that I automatically find sympathy with someone JUST because they're a mage and I love mages.  Yes, I sympathize with mages.  But that's because I think they get the sh*t end of the stick without adequate justification, and I have seen no evidence that the Circle system in its present form is the only possible means of regulating magic that could ever possibly work.

I didn't say Anders was sad or lost.  I did say he was desperate and broken.  There is something of a difference, so there's no need to snidely suggest I just think Anders is a lonely man who needed a hug. But I should clarify that I don't say that he blew up the Chantry because he was those things.  I think he blew it up because he needed to start a war and so he picked the best military target available to him.  I said he was desperate and broken as opposed to being a psychopath, but I don't think those qualities are what led him to his opening salvo. 

Newsflash: A person does not have to be crazy to commit violence.  They could be crazy, but they certainly don't have to be. 

So when your broken, you weren't sad? When your desperate, you were not at all lost? Again you are way too literal to have a conversation with. You know what I meant, your just stuck with your opinion that Templars have and never had a right to watch over mages despite what Thedas used to be like.

I'm not THAT literal.  But if I mean that someone is sad, I say sad.  I try to be precise with my words for this very reason, especially since I know there are many posters on these forums for whom English is not a first language.  No, I don't think that desperate is synonymous with lost, and I don't think that broken is synonymous with sad. 

Granted, I'm better at it when I'm not sleep-deprived, but still...

Good point, I didn't consider that. English is my native language, so when words like that are said, I'll look I guess "beyond" the meaning to further explain myself if that makes sense? But again I didn't take that into account that people that don't have a good grasp of english come here, and that's my fault.

By the way, it has never been my position that mages should be totally free of oversight.  If you'll scroll several posts back you'll see several posts wherein I talk about that very issue with The Evil Writer Redux and...somebody else?

Fair enough, I guess all the sympathy I saw you give Anders, just almost seemed like a contradiction? But as long as we can agree the Templars have their reasons for being cautious (sometimes too strongly) then I'm good to go.

[Silfren]

-TC1989- wrote...

*previous quoted posts all mercifully snipped*

Fair enough, I guess all the sympathy I saw you give Anders, just almost seemed like a contradiction? But as long as we can agree the Templars have their reasons for being cautious (sometimes too strongly) then I'm good to go.

I am sympathetic to Anders because I think he was right, and because I think he was right, I think he was justified in his action.  I don't care that the Templars have their reasons for being cautious, their reasons for being cautious do not justify the Circle in its present state.  The need for caution does not justify tyranny.  You can enact cautionary measures without incarcerating and enslaving mages just for existing.  That is what my position has always been.

Modifié par Silfren, 07 mars 2013 - 07:29 .

[Silfren]

...I keep looking at that gif. I keep seeing the purple-pink outline of a dragon. My brain is trying to make this canon.

I'm like that woman, the first person you meet entering Riverwood while starting Skyrim.  "I saw a dragon!"

Modifié par Silfren, 07 mars 2013 - 07:34 .

[TEWR]

Don't Tranquil me!

Merrill is displeased. She shall bring vengeance upon your doorstep by releasing the dire bunnies!

I swear to all the gods, I see a dragon on the right side of this image. Tell me that's not Flemeth!

I think I kinda see it. And Sandal did say the old lady was watching him, the one with the "scary laugh".

THIS IS NOW CANON. FLEMETH DID A FLY-BY BREATHING.

Were you the one who posted that evil gif of Orsino and Meredith? You know I'll never forgive you for that.

I vaguely recall that gif. Maybe I should go by Evil Writer Redux now, because I might have just posted such a thing. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 07 mars 2013 - 07:36 .

[-TC1989-]

Silfren wrote...

-TC1989- wrote...

*previous quoted posts all mercifully snipped*

Fair enough, I guess all the sympathy I saw you give Anders, just almost seemed like a contradiction? But as long as we can agree the Templars have their reasons for being cautious (sometimes too strongly) then I'm good to go.

I am sympathetic to Anders because I think he was right, and because I think he was right, I think he was justified in his action.  I don't care that the Templars have their reasons for being cautious, their reasons for being cautious do not justify the Circle in its present state.  The need for caution does not justify tyranny.  You can enact cautionary measures without incarcerating and enslaving mages just for existing.  That is what my position has always been.

But hold up. So when all the people in the Chantry were killed by him, you say that you support him, that you don't kill him. I just can't  get past how you think all those deaths were justified. Anders was mistreated, of course he was, but to do what he did in retaliation? I mean he HAD to know that Meredith was going to go off the deep end. I don't think theres alot of Knight-Commanders though who wouldn't have freaked out after something like that happened.

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Don't Tranquil me!

Merrill is displeased. She shall bring vengeance upon your doorstep by releasing the dire bunnies!

I swear to all the gods, I see a dragon on the right side of this image. Tell me that's not Flemeth!

I think I kinda see it. And Sandal did say the old lady was watching him, the one with the "scary laugh".

THIS IS NOW CANON. FLEMETH DID A FLY-BY BREATHING.

Were you the one who posted that evil gif of Orsino and Meredith? You know I'll never forgive you for that.

I vaguely recall that gif. Maybe I should go by Evil Writer Redux now, because I might have just posted such a thing. 

....I called you Evil again?  *goes and sits in the corner*

[IanPolaris]

-TC1989- wrote...

Silfren wrote...

-TC1989- wrote...

*previous quoted posts all mercifully snipped*

Fair enough, I guess all the sympathy I saw you give Anders, just almost seemed like a contradiction? But as long as we can agree the Templars have their reasons for being cautious (sometimes too strongly) then I'm good to go.

I am sympathetic to Anders because I think he was right, and because I think he was right, I think he was justified in his action.  I don't care that the Templars have their reasons for being cautious, their reasons for being cautious do not justify the Circle in its present state.  The need for caution does not justify tyranny.  You can enact cautionary measures without incarcerating and enslaving mages just for existing.  That is what my position has always been.

But hold up. So when all the people in the Chantry were killed by him, you say that you support him, that you don't kill him. I just can't  get past how you think all those deaths were justified. Anders was mistreated, of course he was, but to do what he did in retaliation? I mean he HAD to know that Meredith was going to go off the deep end. I don't think theres alot of Knight-Commanders though who wouldn't have freaked out after something like that happened.

Hate to say it Sifren, but I agree with TC on this one.  I agree with Ander's arguments (as well you know), but I can't get past him being a Mass Murderer and an indiscriminate one at that.  Even Anders admits his guilt.  In my mind there is only one appropriate action in response to such a crime:

Execution.

-Polaris