462 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

Wow...it's been only a day and I'm a few pages behind.

Hazegurl wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

 The problem with the system itself is that it gives way too much power to the templars and the chantry. They now routinely abuse their power over mages, and it can be said they are Tevinter 2.0. The templars aren't held accountable for their own actions as of now, and they have gone against the Chantry so the could do a world-wide mage hunt out of fear and hatred.

Were I to come across a mage abusing his power, I would hold that mage accountable, but not other mages. All I would like to see, is an understanding that while mages may be dangerous and hold a great deal of power, the templars have shown a far greater willingness (in the current system) to abuse their power.

I mostly agree with what you wrote above(even the parts I snipped), about individuals being held accountable for their actions. Not all mages are evil or blood magic users. Not all mages summon demons to solve their problems. Templars who abuse their power should pay. But. If a mage turns to blood magic, regardless of the reasons, they are no longer justified in their actions. My reasons for this pov is that they typically turn to worst acts later on, even if their intent is good or just. There are plenty of normal people who get raped et al and they find a way to solve the problem, get revenge, et al without blood magic. A mage should be able to do the same. I also agree that Tranquility is a fitting punishment for most mage related crimes and death in the most extreme.

I also agree that Templars abuse their power as well. But would I go so far as to call them the Imperium 2.0? No. The mages there seem to kill for power, pleasure, glory, and to impress their friends at dinner parties(Fenris' account of his former master killing a little boy to impress his guests). I find them far worst than the Templars. If the Chantry does their job, that abusive Templar would be out of a job and no longer a problem. I don't agree with Templars killing or torturing anyone, once again the Chantry dropped the ball and the system needed to change or at least bring in a mother who was willing to do more than sit inside a temple all day.

So Merrill, a person who'll only make frowny faces at you is not accountable or justified for her actions? If that's the case then we can pin all the blame for the eluvian and the dalish problems strictly on Merethari.

In all seriousness, I believe Merrill to be perfectly justified, and she never once abused her power, and she took all the necessary precautions regarding her research into eluvians to prevent negative backlash.

And when we discuss Fenris's experience, we have to also acknowledge that we're talking about the Tevinter Imperium and the magisters. They have a completely different culture from most Andrastian nations, and a completely different outlook on magic. And they aren't the only society with free mages. The Dalish have mages, and I'm aware that people are getting tired of the Dalish always being used as examples, but while playing DA2 again today, I actually heard Merrill state quite plainly to Hawke that the Keepers never use their magic out in the open, not even among their own clan, unless it's necessary (not her exact words, but we know Merethari used magic to help Mahariel, so I added the unless necessary part.) We know the Rivaini Seers purposefully and willingly allow themselves to get possessed by spirits (the codex doesn't say demons, so they may be similar to Anders and be possessed by spirits of various virtues.) And we know that the non-mages of the Rivaini believed so strongly in their traditions that they strongly resisted the Chantry when they tried locking up the Seers.

We know the Chasind have Shamans, but I don't know enough about their culture to discuss it much. Only thing I can say is that they have free mages living among them, and they've built armies in the past to invade from the south as a way to resist the imperium and the early Fereldens, and they're not overrun by abominations.

When you talk about how mages typically turn to worse acts, I can just as easily say that templars in the Chantry routinely get worse as well, and the system and the Chantry can be compared to Tevinter if you look at its history.

Historical fact: Orlais started off as a series of City-States, similar to the Free Marches, until Drakon decided he to consolidate power. He picked one out of many Andrastian cults that had risen since her death roughly 100 years earlier, and they worked together to exalted march everyone else into submission, as per the codex entry (I think it's History of the Chantry, but I may be wrong.) As the Chantry grew in influence, they maintained their political ties to Orlais, and wherever Orlais went, the Chantry followed. The orlesians proceeded to conquer everyone else, the Chantry would come in, and even after the Orelsians are driven out, the Chantry influence remains.

The Chantry believes that when the Chant of Light is sung from all corners of the world, it is then that they'll earn the Maker's forgiveness....and they've proven that they're not above conquering everyone else to spread the Chant. They showed this after the Qunari left Rivain but many of the Rivaini's still belonged to the Qun and wouldn't convert. So the Chantry declared an Exalted March on the peaceful Rivaini Qunari, and slaughtered them to such a degree that the veil was sundered....and then denied doing it. An argument can also be made that they Exalted Marched the Dales to protect their Orlesian bed-mates.

Whenever individual countries resist their Orlesian occupiers, the Chantry often supports the Orelsians, regardless of who's right or wrong. They were about to name an entire age after Orlais, and then the Divine promptly renamed the new age Dragon, rumored to be in support of the Orlesian King of Ferelden as his crest was a dragon.

Talking about how much they abuse their power over mages and others in their charge (orphans being raised to be templars or priests, such as Alistair in Origins, and never given a choice) has been a little overdone and overstated, but over time, the Chantry and its templars have shown an increasing disconnect to what their duties are, and the legality of their power they actually have. Ser Rylon actively hunted Anders in Awakening after Anders had been conscripted and his conscription accepted by the crown. She hunted him in secret and said her authority as a templar was more powerful and greater than the crown's or the Warden's. (So powerful that she couldn't operate in the open.) Cullen mentions that templars discuss killing mages with glee. The Revered Mother in Redcliff tells an Amell Warden that the Chantry sometimes raises lynch mobs against mages. The Templars sometimes illegaly tranquilize mages, and have absolutely no problem killing non-mages in death squads or torturing dalish hunters with fire for information.

They're not sacrificing people to fuel rituals, but all the corruption and damage being done is still there. The abuse of power is still there.

I have no easy answers. The Chantry has proven it cannot be trusted to care for the mages and to watch them, and I don't trust the mages to police themselves exclusively otherwise we may end up with another Tevinter, but I don't think limiting the power of the templars and giving mages more rights will ultimately lead to another Tevinter Imperium.

It's not too much to ask to allow mages to go on vacation once in a while and to have the right to raise their own families without having their children taken away as Chantry property.

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

And saying to someone they have nothing to offer is worlds away a different animal from saying "you're too emotional." By saying that you make it clear you DON'T have any thing to offer.

I love how Hazegurl is trying to paint me as some bad guy that just ignored her posts when in reality she said that, because I gave a lot of information to back up my position, my position is thus an inherently flawed one and I'm not doing a good job to support my case.

Ignoring the absolute idiocy of such a statement, she's also saying that to have a good case you must have some arbitrary limit of what information you present. It went not long after to the point where she dismissed everything in the related area because she was too lazy to read it.

Which is when I said that there was no point in furthering a discussion with her. What's the point in discussing a topic with someone if they're just going to ignore what you write, dismiss it wholesale, call you "too emotional"*, and then pretend they're actually having a discussion with you? 

So indeed, she truly proved there was nothing to discuss with her.

*Besides, that wasn't even near me being too emotional. Not from how I've acted in the past. I didn't even scratch the surface of becoming too emotional. Blunt, perhaps, but not emotional.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 08 mars 2013 - 07:08 .

[Harbinger]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Wow...it's been only a day and I'm a few pages behind.

Hazegurl wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

 The problem with the system itself is that it gives way too much power to the templars and the chantry. They now routinely abuse their power over mages, and it can be said they are Tevinter 2.0. The templars aren't held accountable for their own actions as of now, and they have gone against the Chantry so the could do a world-wide mage hunt out of fear and hatred.

Were I to come across a mage abusing his power, I would hold that mage accountable, but not other mages. All I would like to see, is an understanding that while mages may be dangerous and hold a great deal of power, the templars have shown a far greater willingness (in the current system) to abuse their power.

I mostly agree with what you wrote above(even the parts I snipped), about individuals being held accountable for their actions. Not all mages are evil or blood magic users. Not all mages summon demons to solve their problems. Templars who abuse their power should pay. But. If a mage turns to blood magic, regardless of the reasons, they are no longer justified in their actions. My reasons for this pov is that they typically turn to worst acts later on, even if their intent is good or just. There are plenty of normal people who get raped et al and they find a way to solve the problem, get revenge, et al without blood magic. A mage should be able to do the same. I also agree that Tranquility is a fitting punishment for most mage related crimes and death in the most extreme.

I also agree that Templars abuse their power as well. But would I go so far as to call them the Imperium 2.0? No. The mages there seem to kill for power, pleasure, glory, and to impress their friends at dinner parties(Fenris' account of his former master killing a little boy to impress his guests). I find them far worst than the Templars. If the Chantry does their job, that abusive Templar would be out of a job and no longer a problem. I don't agree with Templars killing or torturing anyone, once again the Chantry dropped the ball and the system needed to change or at least bring in a mother who was willing to do more than sit inside a temple all day.

So Merrill, a person who'll only make frowny faces at you is not accountable or justified for her actions? If that's the case then we can pin all the blame for the eluvian and the dalish problems strictly on Merethari.

In all seriousness, I believe Merrill to be perfectly justified, and she never once abused her power, and she took all the necessary precautions regarding her research into eluvians to prevent negative backlash.

And when we discuss Fenris's experience, we have to also acknowledge that we're talking about the Tevinter Imperium and the magisters. They have a completely different culture from most Andrastian nations, and a completely different outlook on magic. And they aren't the only society with free mages. The Dalish have mages, and I'm aware that people are getting tired of the Dalish always being used as examples, but while playing DA2 again today, I actually heard Merrill state quite plainly to Hawke that the Keepers never use their magic out in the open, not even among their own clan, unless it's necessary (not her exact words, but we know Merethari used magic to help Mahariel, so I added the unless necessary part.) We know the Rivaini Seers purposefully and willingly allow themselves to get possessed by spirits (the codex doesn't say demons, so they may be similar to Anders and be possessed by spirits of various virtues.) And we know that the non-mages of the Rivaini believed so strongly in their traditions that they strongly resisted the Chantry when they tried locking up the Seers.

We know the Chasind have Shamans, but I don't know enough about their culture to discuss it much. Only thing I can say is that they have free mages living among them, and they've built armies in the past to invade from the south as a way to resist the imperium and the early Fereldens, and they're not overrun by abominations.

When you talk about how mages typically turn to worse acts, I can just as easily say that templars in the Chantry routinely get worse as well, and the system and the Chantry can be compared to Tevinter if you look at its history.

Historical fact: Orlais started off as a series of City-States, similar to the Free Marches, until Drakon decided he to consolidate power. He picked one out of many Andrastian cults that had risen since her death roughly 100 years earlier, and they worked together to exalted march everyone else into submission, as per the codex entry (I think it's History of the Chantry, but I may be wrong.) As the Chantry grew in influence, they maintained their political ties to Orlais, and wherever Orlais went, the Chantry followed. The orlesians proceeded to conquer everyone else, the Chantry would come in, and even after the Orelsians are driven out, the Chantry influence remains.

The Chantry believes that when the Chant of Light is sung from all corners of the world, it is then that they'll earn the Maker's forgiveness....and they've proven that they're not above conquering everyone else to spread the Chant. They showed this after the Qunari left Rivain but many of the Rivaini's still belonged to the Qun and wouldn't convert. So the Chantry declared an Exalted March on the peaceful Rivaini Qunari, and slaughtered them to such a degree that the veil was sundered....and then denied doing it. An argument can also be made that they Exalted Marched the Dales to protect their Orlesian bed-mates.

Whenever individual countries resist their Orlesian occupiers, the Chantry often supports the Orelsians, regardless of who's right or wrong. They were about to name an entire age after Orlais, and then the Divine promptly renamed the new age Dragon, rumored to be in support of the Orlesian King of Ferelden as his crest was a dragon.

Talking about how much they abuse their power over mages and others in their charge (orphans being raised to be templars or priests, such as Alistair in Origins, and never given a choice) has been a little overdone and overstated, but over time, the Chantry and its templars have shown an increasing disconnect to what their duties are, and the legality of their power they actually have. Ser Rylon actively hunted Anders in Awakening after Anders had been conscripted and his conscription accepted by the crown. She hunted him in secret and said her authority as a templar was more powerful and greater than the crown's or the Warden's. (So powerful that she couldn't operate in the open.) Cullen mentions that templars discuss killing mages with glee. The Revered Mother in Redcliff tells an Amell Warden that the Chantry sometimes raises lynch mobs against mages. The Templars sometimes illegaly tranquilize mages, and have absolutely no problem killing non-mages in death squads or torturing dalish hunters with fire for information.

They're not sacrificing people to fuel rituals, but all the corruption and damage being done is still there. The abuse of power is still there.

I have no easy answers. The Chantry has proven it cannot be trusted to care for the mages and to watch them, and I don't trust the mages to police themselves exclusively otherwise we may end up with another Tevinter, but I don't think limiting the power of the templars and giving mages more rights will ultimately lead to another Tevinter Imperium.

It's not too much to ask to allow mages to go on vacation once in a while and to have the right to raise their own families without having their children taken away as Chantry property.

I love your points, they are some of the many reasons (not all) that I have been very skeptical of the chantry since Origins, prior to II. I'm not sure if you're aware of this or anyone else. But in the upcoming World of Thedas book Volume I [page 14] it was revealed that the Divine actually supported the mages, which caused many templars and Seekers to dissassociate with the Chantry and go rogue. That will cause a lot of problems in DAIII I am sure. Too bad there is not more info on this.

http://www.darkhorse...s/22-388?page=7

For some of the previous arguments, in my old playthroughs I was more benevolent towards grand Cleric Elthina but in my recent ones I have become more irritated. The fact that she does not speak out to both sides of the conflict on various abuses does create problems because she does nothing being one of the most powerful people in Kirkwall. (It's the equivilent to trying to put a giant bottle cap on an active volcano, actually.) Furthermore, she claims to want to stay and "help" the people by doing nothing. Even after the Divine warns her to get out because they knew the chantry would be a political target.

"If you cannot take care of yourself, you cannot take care of other people.", even after Sebastian and I begged her about this she would not leave. She knew she was a political target, the tensions were becoming too much. If Anders had done nothing, I am sure there would have been another mage or templar that would have. She was a sitting duck, knew it, and did exactly nothing about it as she had always done about other things.

Modifié par Harbinger, 08 mars 2013 - 01:15 .

[dragonflight288]

Harbinger wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Wow...it's been only a day and I'm a few pages behind.

Hazegurl wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

 The problem with the system itself is that it gives way too much power to the templars and the chantry. They now routinely abuse their power over mages, and it can be said they are Tevinter 2.0. The templars aren't held accountable for their own actions as of now, and they have gone against the Chantry so the could do a world-wide mage hunt out of fear and hatred.

Were I to come across a mage abusing his power, I would hold that mage accountable, but not other mages. All I would like to see, is an understanding that while mages may be dangerous and hold a great deal of power, the templars have shown a far greater willingness (in the current system) to abuse their power.

I mostly agree with what you wrote above(even the parts I snipped), about individuals being held accountable for their actions. Not all mages are evil or blood magic users. Not all mages summon demons to solve their problems. Templars who abuse their power should pay. But. If a mage turns to blood magic, regardless of the reasons, they are no longer justified in their actions. My reasons for this pov is that they typically turn to worst acts later on, even if their intent is good or just. There are plenty of normal people who get raped et al and they find a way to solve the problem, get revenge, et al without blood magic. A mage should be able to do the same. I also agree that Tranquility is a fitting punishment for most mage related crimes and death in the most extreme.

I also agree that Templars abuse their power as well. But would I go so far as to call them the Imperium 2.0? No. The mages there seem to kill for power, pleasure, glory, and to impress their friends at dinner parties(Fenris' account of his former master killing a little boy to impress his guests). I find them far worst than the Templars. If the Chantry does their job, that abusive Templar would be out of a job and no longer a problem. I don't agree with Templars killing or torturing anyone, once again the Chantry dropped the ball and the system needed to change or at least bring in a mother who was willing to do more than sit inside a temple all day.

So Merrill, a person who'll only make frowny faces at you is not accountable or justified for her actions? If that's the case then we can pin all the blame for the eluvian and the dalish problems strictly on Merethari.

In all seriousness, I believe Merrill to be perfectly justified, and she never once abused her power, and she took all the necessary precautions regarding her research into eluvians to prevent negative backlash.

And when we discuss Fenris's experience, we have to also acknowledge that we're talking about the Tevinter Imperium and the magisters. They have a completely different culture from most Andrastian nations, and a completely different outlook on magic. And they aren't the only society with free mages. The Dalish have mages, and I'm aware that people are getting tired of the Dalish always being used as examples, but while playing DA2 again today, I actually heard Merrill state quite plainly to Hawke that the Keepers never use their magic out in the open, not even among their own clan, unless it's necessary (not her exact words, but we know Merethari used magic to help Mahariel, so I added the unless necessary part.) We know the Rivaini Seers purposefully and willingly allow themselves to get possessed by spirits (the codex doesn't say demons, so they may be similar to Anders and be possessed by spirits of various virtues.) And we know that the non-mages of the Rivaini believed so strongly in their traditions that they strongly resisted the Chantry when they tried locking up the Seers.

We know the Chasind have Shamans, but I don't know enough about their culture to discuss it much. Only thing I can say is that they have free mages living among them, and they've built armies in the past to invade from the south as a way to resist the imperium and the early Fereldens, and they're not overrun by abominations.

When you talk about how mages typically turn to worse acts, I can just as easily say that templars in the Chantry routinely get worse as well, and the system and the Chantry can be compared to Tevinter if you look at its history.

Historical fact: Orlais started off as a series of City-States, similar to the Free Marches, until Drakon decided he to consolidate power. He picked one out of many Andrastian cults that had risen since her death roughly 100 years earlier, and they worked together to exalted march everyone else into submission, as per the codex entry (I think it's History of the Chantry, but I may be wrong.) As the Chantry grew in influence, they maintained their political ties to Orlais, and wherever Orlais went, the Chantry followed. The orlesians proceeded to conquer everyone else, the Chantry would come in, and even after the Orelsians are driven out, the Chantry influence remains.

The Chantry believes that when the Chant of Light is sung from all corners of the world, it is then that they'll earn the Maker's forgiveness....and they've proven that they're not above conquering everyone else to spread the Chant. They showed this after the Qunari left Rivain but many of the Rivaini's still belonged to the Qun and wouldn't convert. So the Chantry declared an Exalted March on the peaceful Rivaini Qunari, and slaughtered them to such a degree that the veil was sundered....and then denied doing it. An argument can also be made that they Exalted Marched the Dales to protect their Orlesian bed-mates.

Whenever individual countries resist their Orlesian occupiers, the Chantry often supports the Orelsians, regardless of who's right or wrong. They were about to name an entire age after Orlais, and then the Divine promptly renamed the new age Dragon, rumored to be in support of the Orlesian King of Ferelden as his crest was a dragon.

Talking about how much they abuse their power over mages and others in their charge (orphans being raised to be templars or priests, such as Alistair in Origins, and never given a choice) has been a little overdone and overstated, but over time, the Chantry and its templars have shown an increasing disconnect to what their duties are, and the legality of their power they actually have. Ser Rylon actively hunted Anders in Awakening after Anders had been conscripted and his conscription accepted by the crown. She hunted him in secret and said her authority as a templar was more powerful and greater than the crown's or the Warden's. (So powerful that she couldn't operate in the open.) Cullen mentions that templars discuss killing mages with glee. The Revered Mother in Redcliff tells an Amell Warden that the Chantry sometimes raises lynch mobs against mages. The Templars sometimes illegaly tranquilize mages, and have absolutely no problem killing non-mages in death squads or torturing dalish hunters with fire for information.

They're not sacrificing people to fuel rituals, but all the corruption and damage being done is still there. The abuse of power is still there.

I have no easy answers. The Chantry has proven it cannot be trusted to care for the mages and to watch them, and I don't trust the mages to police themselves exclusively otherwise we may end up with another Tevinter, but I don't think limiting the power of the templars and giving mages more rights will ultimately lead to another Tevinter Imperium.

It's not too much to ask to allow mages to go on vacation once in a while and to have the right to raise their own families without having their children taken away as Chantry property.

I love your points, they are some of the many reasons (not all) that I have been very skeptical of the chantry since Origins, prior to II. I'm not sure if you're aware of this or anyone else. But in the upcoming World of Thedas book Volume I [page 14] it was revealed that the Divine actually supported the mages, which caused many templars and Seekers to dissassociate with the Chantry and go rogue. That will cause a lot of problems in DAIII I am sure. Too bad there is not more info on this.

http://www.darkhorse...s/22-388?page=7

For some of the previous arguments, in my old playthroughs I was more benevolent towards grand Cleric Elthina but in my recent ones I have become more irritated. The fact that she does not speak out to both sides of the conflict on various abuses does create problems because she does nothing being one of the most powerful people in Kirkwall. (It's the equivilent to trying to put a giant bottle cap on an active volcano, actually.) Furthermore, she claims to want to stay and "help" the people by doing nothing. Even after the Divine warns her to get out because they knew the chantry would be a political target.

"If you cannot take care of yourself, you cannot take care of other people.", even after Sebastian and I begged her about this she would not leave. She knew she was a political target, the tensions were becoming too much. If Anders had done nothing, I am sure there would have been another mage or templar that would have. She was a sitting duck, knew it, and did exactly nothing about it as she had always done about other things.

And thus you can see why myself and others are also increasingly irritated with her as well.

Fact: We know Meredith had promoted sadistic and ruthless templars over the more moderate ones. Cullen's codex specifically says she made him her second because his view of mages based on his experiences in Ferelden matched her own, and she wanted him to influence the templars under their command to see thing their way.

Fact: Meredith handpicked a zealot to lead a deathsquad, killing non-mages who have helped magical relatives. That's quite excessive.

Fact: Aveline and the City-Guards were practically fighting the templars out of their office, and Cullen said that an argument had been made for the templars to consolidate the power they already had. Meredith was the defacto Viscount at this time and was actively working to keep the city's nobles from taking back control of the city.

Elthina choosing to do nothing, is either blatant incompetent in keeping Meredith and the templars under her control, and as Grand Cleric she does have the authority, and as the one who appointed Meredith and is Meredith's direct superior, directly responsible for them. Or, it's a tacit approval of Meredith's actions and Elthina wishes to keep her hands clean by appearing neutral.

Neither of those options are comforting in the powder-keg that is Kirkwall.

EDIT: Fixed some typos.

2ND EDIT: And thanks.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 08 mars 2013 - 09:18 .

[Hazegurl]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Wow...it's been only a day and I'm a few pages behind.

Hazegurl wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

 The problem with the system itself is that it gives way too much power to the templars and the chantry. They now routinely abuse their power over mages, and it can be said they are Tevinter 2.0. The templars aren't held accountable for their own actions as of now, and they have gone against the Chantry so the could do a world-wide mage hunt out of fear and hatred.

Were I to come across a mage abusing his power, I would hold that mage accountable, but not other mages. All I would like to see, is an understanding that while mages may be dangerous and hold a great deal of power, the templars have shown a far greater willingness (in the current system) to abuse their power.

I mostly agree with what you wrote above(even the parts I snipped), about individuals being held accountable for their actions. Not all mages are evil or blood magic users. Not all mages summon demons to solve their problems. Templars who abuse their power should pay. But. If a mage turns to blood magic, regardless of the reasons, they are no longer justified in their actions. My reasons for this pov is that they typically turn to worst acts later on, even if their intent is good or just. There are plenty of normal people who get raped et al and they find a way to solve the problem, get revenge, et al without blood magic. A mage should be able to do the same. I also agree that Tranquility is a fitting punishment for most mage related crimes and death in the most extreme.

I also agree that Templars abuse their power as well. But would I go so far as to call them the Imperium 2.0? No. The mages there seem to kill for power, pleasure, glory, and to impress their friends at dinner parties(Fenris' account of his former master killing a little boy to impress his guests). I find them far worst than the Templars. If the Chantry does their job, that abusive Templar would be out of a job and no longer a problem. I don't agree with Templars killing or torturing anyone, once again the Chantry dropped the ball and the system needed to change or at least bring in a mother who was willing to do more than sit inside a temple all day.

So Merrill, a person who'll only make frowny faces at you is not accountable or justified for her actions? If that's the case then we can pin all the blame for the eluvian and the dalish problems strictly on Merethari.

In all seriousness, I believe Merrill to be perfectly justified, and she never once abused her power, and she took all the necessary precautions regarding her research into eluvians to prevent negative backlash.

I really liked Merril dispite her being a blood mage. I do find her to be the most responsible of the lot.  But the way she so nonchalantly betrays Hawke when a demon offers power is unsettling. At least Fenris is a bit hesitant. She's actually quite happy to do so.  Still love the girl but I wouldn't put much faith in her and her dealings with demons.

And when we discuss Fenris's experience, we have to also acknowledge that we're talking about the Tevinter Imperium and the magisters.

I agree. But I can see where Kirkwall could be headed if mages there were allowed to govern themselves. I do believe mages deserve their freedom just not to govern themselves. For example, if the circle is turned into a school, I wouldn't want it run by all mages. A joint Templar/Mage effort would be better with a better government/law enforcement et al overseeing both groups. I know it's similar to the system they have now, but mages will not be locked away.  As for the Dalish.  Merrill and Merethari. Well, I can't really speak much about them as Keepers except to say that. I wouldn't trust Merrill as a Keeper and Merethari endagers everyone for one person's sake. In Origins, the Dalish keeper used magic for his revenge and almost destoryed his own clan (or does destory it if you help the wolves kill them all). As for the other groups, I don't know much about them either. But aren't the Chasind cannibals?

When you talk about how mages typically turn to worse acts, I can just as easily say that templars in the Chantry routinely get worse as well, and the system and the Chantry can be compared to Tevinter if you look at its history.

I won't deny that. They have and they should be stopped. However, the difference for me is a templar can be fired and thus present no more of a problem. A blood mage gone too far can threaten far more lives before being put down.

I have no easy answers. The Chantry has proven it cannot be trusted to care for the mages and to watch them, and I don't trust the mages to police themselves exclusively otherwise we may end up with another Tevinter, but I don't think limiting the power of the templars and giving mages more rights will ultimately lead to another Tevinter Imperium.

It's not too much to ask to allow mages to go on vacation once in a while and to have the right to raise their own families without having their children taken away as Chantry property.

I agree 100% with you. I don't believe mages should police themselves completely. As they have proven to go too far and the Templars have shown that without someone to govern them they also go too far. This is why I was happy to kill both Meredith and Orsino as I saw them both as the extreme of each side. You have one secretly helping a sick serial killer who had run loose and endangered the lives of a city for years and the other wants to kill everyone and the damn dog too. As for the Chantry's religious fervor, I'm not religious so I say the Chantry can just go away, like I wish most real religions would. But you can't kill religious fervor with bombs(looking at you Anders). It seems to only strengthen it. Perhaps a better idea would be to leave the Chantry out of governing mages and the Templars. Let them be a regular church where people who believe in their Andraste and pray and find peace. 

[Hazegurl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Silfren wrote...

And saying to someone they have nothing to offer is worlds away a different animal from saying "you're too emotional." By saying that you make it clear you DON'T have any thing to offer.

I love how Hazegurl is trying to paint me as some bad guy

You're not important enough for me to paint as a bad guy. Get over yourself.

[Hazegurl]

[quote]Silfren wrote...

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]Silfren wrote...

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

You're obviously very emotional about this. I don't think you have anything to offer this discussion. [/quote]

Hoo boy, you actually just made a tone argument and tried to dismiss someone's viewpoint because you deem them too emotional.  Nice going. 
[/quote]

Get over it.

I still replied to him even after that comment which meant I was still open for discussing with him. Mind you, after he had already stated multiple times that I had nothing to offer the discussion. But if you want to pick and chose which slights to address, go right ahead.[/quote]

Sorry, no, tone arguments have no place in a discussion, and that's all there is to it.  Once you tell someone they're too emotional, you've proven that you're not interested in honest discussion.  And saying to someone they have nothing to offer is worlds away a different animal from saying "you're too emotional."  By saying that you make it clear you DON'T have any thing to offer.

There's nothing to get "over," because that implies I was distressed by your comment in the first place.  I wasn't.  But that doesn't mean I don't recognize it for the logical fallacy it is.  You're basing saying that you have no real counter-argument to what the other person asserts, so you resort to cheap and childish retorts, of which "You're too emotional!" is the most eye-rollingly pathetic.[/quote]
[/quote]

Don't reply to me if you don't like what I have to say. Simple as that. I'm not going to change my posts for you or no one else. Stop being EMOTIONAL. I don't care how much you ****** and moan about what I've said. I can have a discussion with everyone else here without having to read yours and his moral lecturing vomit inducing diatribe. He was being too emotional in his arguments and I don't have time for it. Its just a game and I am interested in different opinions. But when you call people's ingame choice morally reprehenisble then proceed to judge a person base on it.  Then yeah. You're allowing your own emotions on the subject to cloud your thinking by getting personal and I don't have time for it. Both of you need to step off your high horse for once.

[Hazegurl]

dragonflight288 wrote...

And thus you can see why myself and others are also increasingly irritated with her as well.

Fact: We know Meredith had promoted sadistic and ruthless templars over the more moderate ones. Cullen's codex specifically says she made him her second because his view of mages based on his experiences in Ferelden matched her own, and she wanted him to influence the templars under their command to see thing their way.

Fact: Meredith handpicked a zealot to lead a deathsquad, killing non-mages who have helped magical relatives. That's quite excessive.

Fact: Aveline and the City-Guards were practically fighting the templars out of their office, and Cullen said that an argument had been made for the templars to consolidate the power they already had. Meredith was the defacto Viscount at this time and was actively working to keep the city's nobles from taking back control of the city.

Elthina choosing to do nothing, is either blatant incompetent in keeping Meredith and the templars under her control, and as Grand Cleric she does have the authority, and as the one who appointed Meredith and is Meredith's direct superior, directly responsible for them. Or, it's a tacit approval of Meredith's actions and Elthina wishes to keep her hands clean by appearing neutral.

Neither of those options are comforting in the powder-keg that is Kirkwall.

EDIT: Fixed some typos.

2ND EDIT: And thanks.

Oh yeah. I wanted to headbutt that old lady and drag her out of the Chantry. She really was dedicated to sitting in the Temple doing nothing all day. If she had gotten off her wrinkled bottomed and did something, knowing that Meredith could not defy her, things could have turned out differently. She claims she didn't have much power or that Hawke over estimated her power. But could she really have not done anything, at all? It's just like the Viscount during the Qunari mess. It didn't surprise me to see his head roll down the steps. A case of two old people reluctant to do their jobs and Kirkwall growing weaker because of it.

[TEWR]

I really liked Merril dispite her being a blood mage. I do find her to be the most responsible of the lot. But the way she so nonchalantly betrays Hawke when a demon offers power is unsettling. At least Fenris is a bit hesitant. She's actually quite happy to do so. Still love the girl but I wouldn't put much faith in her and her dealings with demons

Bah. Pride Demons and Desire Demons are capable of mind control when they're in the Fade -- the realm where they're at their most powerful -- but are hesitant to resort to such measures, deeming them crude. They use them as last resorts when their other plans fail.

When Hawke destroys the tapestry of illusion they were weaving to subtly manipulate Feynriel, they are now resorting to outright mind control, which they will use on all of the companions save for Anders, depending on who you brought along. Aveline, Varric, and Merrill all say that they were controlled by the Demon in question. They didn't freely make the choice, they were forced to make it.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 mars 2013 - 12:24 .

[Hazegurl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I really liked Merril dispite her being a blood mage. I do find her to be the most responsible of the lot. But the way she so nonchalantly betrays Hawke when a demon offers power is unsettling. At least Fenris is a bit hesitant. She's actually quite happy to do so. Still love the girl but I wouldn't put much faith in her and her dealings with demons

Bah. Pride Demons and Desire Demons are capable of mind control when they're in the Fade -- the realm where they're at their most powerful -- but are hesitant to resort to such measures, deeming them crude. They use them as last resorts when their other plans fail.

When Hawke destroys the tapestry of illusion they were weaving to subtly manipulate Feynriel, they are now resorting to outright mind control, which they will use on all of the companions save for Anders, depending on who you brought along. Aveline, Varric, and Merrill all say that they were controlled by the Demon in question. They didn't freely make the choice, they were forced to make it.

I know they were forced to make it. So far I have only been betrayed by Fenris and Merrill so I can't speak for the rest. What I noticed is that Merrill is happy and gives in far easily. While there is hesitation in Fenris's voice.  Fenris is definitely the stronger one of the two and I can actually believe him when he speaks of mind control. Although Merrill says she was controlled and I believe her as well. Her eagerness when offered power in the Fade made me think "Thanks for the apology but I'm watching you, dammit!"

[dragonflight288]

Hazegurl wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I really liked Merril dispite her being a blood mage. I do find her to be the most responsible of the lot. But the way she so nonchalantly betrays Hawke when a demon offers power is unsettling. At least Fenris is a bit hesitant. She's actually quite happy to do so. Still love the girl but I wouldn't put much faith in her and her dealings with demons

Bah. Pride Demons and Desire Demons are capable of mind control when they're in the Fade -- the realm where they're at their most powerful -- but are hesitant to resort to such measures, deeming them crude. They use them as last resorts when their other plans fail.

When Hawke destroys the tapestry of illusion they were weaving to subtly manipulate Feynriel, they are now resorting to outright mind control, which they will use on all of the companions save for Anders, depending on who you brought along. Aveline, Varric, and Merrill all say that they were controlled by the Demon in question. They didn't freely make the choice, they were forced to make it.

I know they were forced to make it. So far I have only been betrayed by Fenris and Merrill so I can't speak for the rest. What I noticed is that Merrill is happy and gives in far easily. While there is hesitation in Fenris's voice.  Fenris is definitely the stronger one of the two and I can actually believe him when he speaks of mind control. Although Merrill says she was controlled and I believe her as well. Her eagerness when offered power in the Fade made me think "Thanks for the apology but I'm watching you, dammit!"

Her eagerness wasn't so much about gaining power but being part of saving her people, giving them a home, restoring the lost culture of Arlathan. That's what the whole point of Dalish is about.

Merrill is proud, proud to be Dalish. Proud of her work, and takes great pride in trying to do what she thinks is best. Out of all of them, I think Merrill might have the most pride, as she is always first pick, but Fenris has a great deal of pride as well. Aveline and Isaballa get taken over by the Spirit of Desire, Aveline for her desire to see and have Wesley back, and Isabella....likes big ships. Varic also gets taken over by the pride demon if you have Anders, Aveline/Isabella and Varic in the party, as Anders/Justice can't be taken over by any of the demons, as Justice is a Fade Spirit as well.

Every companion, save the one who is already possessed, falls to temptation.

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

What's the point in discussing a topic with someone if they're just going to ignore what you write, dismiss it wholesale, call you "too emotional"*, and then pretend they're actually having a discussion with you? 

Clearly you and I have rather funny ideas of how discussions should go.  You gotta love how some people think that "you're too emotional" is a valid argument in a discussion, when it's nothing more than an attempt to derail.  The last resort of people who know their arguments don't work and can't admit it.

Modifié par Silfren, 09 mars 2013 - 04:11 .

[TEWR]

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

Stop being predictable. My original point remains the same. You fight blood mages throughout the game. Sure not all come from the circle but some did. Like I said before. Kirkwall had a problem, for some reason it was a haven for blood mages.  Just because not all came from the circle does not mean the circle was running smoothly.[/quote]

Just because some came from the Circle does not mean the Circle is corrupt beyond repair. Every Circle is going to have a few bad eggs. That doesn't mean that 3 should be used as evidence to slaughter 3000. It's even more absurd to use apostates as justification for the Circle being corrupt.


[quote]Okay, fine. He was an apostate. My fault on that. Still doesn't mean the circle was free of corruption. You have zero proof to prove that the circle itself was free of corruption.[/quote]

I never once said the Circle was free of corruption. I just said that it wasn't corrupt to the point that an RoA was even necessary. 

The only Circle Mage of Kirkwall's Gallows that I can consider to be corrupt is Grace, despite the quest not making sense for a pro-Mage Hawke. She was possessed because she allowed a Demon to take her body over so as to exact revenge against Hawke for Decimus' death.

While the idea of "revenge for Decimus" is not a bad idea, it has a flawed execution in DAII. Decimus will attack people that bear no connection to the Templars and whose allegiances are unknown to him -- they could be allies in the making for ****'s sake -- and Grace lets herself get possessed to take down the Champion. The quest doesn't make sense for pro-mage Hawkes (not for the possession reason, mind you. I address why down below), but is unfortunately some contrived bit of canon unless DA3 says Varric lied.

The rest were either apostates or driven to depraved acts by the Templars themselves. They do not condemn the Mages of the Circle.

Apostates do not condemn the Circle for their acts and if the Templars legitimately drove a Mage to become a blood mage because said Mage was being raped repeatedly by them, then the Templars are the ones that need the punishment more then the Mages of the Circle do..

[quote]
Since you claim they are incompetent then I guess they wouldn't. I guess it also means that they would not be able to detect corruption within the circle or be able to do anything about. You know, with them being so incomptent and all. Funny how you sort of change your views on how well the Templars can do their jobs when it suits you. [/quote]

Oh please, any idiot could tell if a Mage is using blood magic if he's got large gashes along his body/arms or scars to go with them.

[quote]
Once again, neither party was doing the right thing. Trying to start a riot is not how to get things done.  I agree that the chantry leader should have been doing her job. I lay the blame with her more than anyone. Kirkwall, overall had very weak leaders. First the Viscount and then the chantry woman. Perhaps a case of them being too damn old and ready to retire. Whatever the case. Orsino was just making it worse.[/quote]

Viscount Dumar was specifically chosen by Meredith because he was considered spineless. Capable as he is at keeping peace, he lacks courage and fortitude to do what needs to be done. Along with power and authority.

Elthina specifically allowed Meredith to ascend to the rank of Knight-Commander despite the latter not being psychologically fit for the task.

For all of two decades, she allowed Meredith to commit more and more acts that go against what the Chantry supposedly preaches and the ideals of the Templar Order. But as dragonflight288 said, it is either born from incompetence (and senility) or a tacit approval of Meredith while trying to keep her hands clean by claiming neutrality.

When one person claims to be neutral, they are by default supporting the oppressors.

Orsino was simply living up to the legacy of his predecessor from Ages ago, First Enchanter Casimira. She fought tooth and nail against the Templars to keep them from killing all the Mages gathered around in the newly transformed Gallows -- who were mostly apostates at the time. She was vocal in keeping the Templars from coming down on the Mages. Orsino is no different. 

By convincing the nobility to stand against Meredith, they undermine her authority and thus her power over them, which then increases the chances of removing Templar authority over the political spectrum -- something Elthina should've done the moment Perrin Threnhold died. 

It then would lead to the Templars doing their duty. Instead of trying to play petty politics, their duty -- as Guylian said -- was to protect the city from magic and the Mages from the city, not to protect the city from itself.




[quote]

Who says? You? Hawke has been known to do the impossible.[/quote]

Hawke has been known to fail and get lucky. And the RoA is defined by the complete purge of every Mage in the Circle.

[quote]And oh look. He actually does manage to stop the RoA if he sides with the Templars.[/quote]

The RoA is finished after Orsino dies. Meredith says "It is done" and asks you to meet her outside, where all the Templars are gathered.

There are no Mages left. Save for the 3-4 that Hawke might possibly allow to live.

So you didn't "stop the RoA". You just finished it.


[quote]  So much for your opinion on how things work. And do you have proof that the mages who surrendered were mad tranquil? Not what one person says what would happen, or what is supposed to happen but what actually did happen? At the end Hawke is made Viscount and you can head canon anyway you see fit until he falls off the map.[/quote]

David Gaider, the man who created Dragon Age, said they would IIRC more then likely be made Tranquil. He said this is the case for all Annulments. Any Mage that surrenders is more then likely going to be made Tranquil.

Are you going to say his word is not acceptable?

[quote]Whose Hawke's reasons? Yours? Cause that was not entirely my Hawke's reasons. Meredeith says they will call for blood. Hawke agrees, but only that the citizens would storm the circle and kill the mages themselves. Meredeith is doing it as some sort of champion for the people while Hawke's reasons are that the people of Kirkwall will lose it and tear the mages apart anyway and most likely hurt themselves in the process. The mages would have to be even more confined then before and Kirkwall citizens would endanger there own lives to get to the mages. IMO, I think he/she was correct.[/quote]

And I think your Hawke was wrong, because no mob forms at all. You hear nothing about any mob forming. Regardless of what Hawke may state/believe as his/her reasons, the end result is the same as Meredith's: the appeasement of a hypothetical mob that never forms.

[quote]I disagree with you. As head enchanter it was his responsiblity to bring this to light, not grease the palm of a serial killer to preserve his rep and the rep of mages.[/quote]

Greasing palms means bribing. Orsino's not bribing anyone.

The fact of the matter is that while his information would've helped, it was not necessary for the Templars to do their job regarding Quentin. They had sufficient evidence in Act 1 to warrant an investigation and possibly apprehend Quentin.

Meredith can not be trusted to think and act rationally if Orsino comes forward with such information. She was scarred at a young age by an incredibly traumatic event, and IIRC studies today have linked traumatic occurrences of violence witnessed at childhood to acts of violence committed later on by the person that witnessed such things.

Or something similar. Silfren might know more about this then I, admittedly.

[quote]He failed. Simple as that. He is proof that mages should not govern themselves and each other because they will protect their own above anyone else. What does that remind me of. Oh yeah. Fenris's account of how the Tevinter Imperium began.[/quote]

Oh please, Orsino keeping information hidden to prevent an act of genocide from being called for by a madwoman ill-fit to have ever donned the armor of the Templars is nowhere near comparable to the societal infrastructure and corruption inherent in the Imperium. 

You might have a point if the First Enchanter had a legitimate say in whether an RoA could be performed. But he doesn't.

Also, not all Mages if left to police themselves would initiate another Imperium. The Mages' Collective, for instance, polices Mages appropriately if they go astray while also maintaining anonymity from the Templars. But they also have a division of Templars in their pockets, indicating that they could call upon them for aid in dealing with threats if they needed to.


[quote]I won't forget that letter "O" Orsino wrote to the killer praising him for necromany and loaning him books on the subject. Probably why he didn't want that search to take place.[/quote]

Well yeah, he was afraid that Meredith would use his connection to Quentin as proof positive of the Circle's corruption, Orsino's testimony on the subject be damned.

And he's not wrong. She calls for an RoA on the flimsiest of reasons and then later on says "Even if I wished to stay my hand, I couldn't. The people will demand blood." which says that she doesn't give a **** about her stated reason earlier. Emphasis on "if" is mine. The wording is very key here. If she had said "Even though I wish to stay my hand", then it'd be a different matter.

She wanted to annul the Circle and just used the first thing that came to her mind to try and give justification for it. Supported by Karras talking of how she's gone over Elthina's head petitioning for the RoA and her talks of "I'm eager to begin the RoA" and "the Circle will know fear!" during the RoA.

She doesn't care about staying her hand. She doesn't want to stay her hand. She just wants to kill all Mages, because of her long-time harboring of the broken (and thus more potent) idol that Bartrand sold her.


[quote]I love how you add the "malicious" Templars.  I can do it too. Evil demon summoning, blood magic practicing, human scarificing, wife killing, serial killer, and possible pigeon killing Mages. Since we're judging the whole lot based on the handful of bad people.... I wonder which side is worse. [/quote]

The Templars, assuredly. The 5% of decent ones among them have all been killed, suspended, or have resigned from the Order.

If the Templars cannot think for themselves that an RoA is not necessary, that the true ideals of the Order are to protect Mages from mundanes as well as the opposite, then they are not only malicious Templars but monstrous Templars. 

The Maker gave them a brain. They should either use it, quit, or jump off of a cliff.

It's funny, you use the actions of Mages -- apostates or no -- to condemn thousands of Circle Mages, children amongst them. But then you take issue when I point out that the Templars of Kirkwall are malicious pricks more often then not?

How interesting. The actions and inactions of Mages can condemn the Mages, but the same cannot be said for the Templars? Bah. 

 

[quote]
*sigh* The mages should have been confined BEFORE the RoA. The RoA is a last resort and should have been treated as such. My idea of a confinement is an alternative to the RoA. Orsino only offered the alternative after Meredeith had already went through with it. Before then he was too busy throwing a drama queen hissy fit over having his room searched.  But if you need to think he was some sort of paragon of virtue and common sense, then go ahead. [/quote]

Orsino wasn't even given a goddamn chance to speak after the bombing. After Anders blew up the Circle, Orsino asked him why he'd do such a thing. Immediately after Anders gave his reasons, Meredith called for the RoA. Orsino didn't even have to offer her an olive branch as she had the legal authority to do it herself. That her first instinct was to call for the one thing she's wanted for months now instead of doing her actual duty speaks more to her problems then Orsino's.

And what the hell does it matter when he offers the search to Meredith? The thing that matters is that it was offered and that's it.


[quote]

Meredeith believed he was haboring blood mages. Was she wrong considering how many you fight at the end? LOL! she was paranoid, but was she 100% wrong?[/quote]

Give me proof that those blood mages -- of which there are only a dozen fought total, some under a Demon's command -- were secret blood mages and not Mages that went to Demons for knowledge on blood magic like Fenris says will happen or that just stumbled upon it by cutting their wrists in desperation.

Fact: In at least a few battles, Demons come through of their own volition. 

Fact: Pride Demons are capable of summoning other Demons, which you see happen.

Fact: Not all of the Blood Mages were in control of their minds. Two at least were under the control of a Desire Demon.

Fact: In the pro-Mage side, you do not fight as many blood mages. Some of the Mages that turned to blood magic in the pro-Templar side do not do so in the pro-mage side, indicating that it was desperation that drove them to it.

Fact: Anders suggests that any Mage can just stumble upon blood magic's powers by cutting their wrists.

If you fear a monster under your bed so much that you create the monster itself, who is at fault? Driving a Mage to commit blood magic because of an unjustified, unwarranted, and unethical RoA puts the blame on the Templars. The Mages are fighting for their lives. They're fighting for the right to live after Meredith abused her power. Should they just surrender meekly on their knees, hoping to the Maker that death or Tranquility would not follow suit? Or should they fight?

I say the latter. Fighting for your life in a case like the Kirkwall RoA is justified.


[quote]Then a mage (Anders) makes it easier for her by killing the chantry woman. How ironic.[/quote]

That was his point. By removing the entire line of priests that had command or would take command over the Templars, he gave Meredith the Lunatic authority to approve of whatever she wanted -- including the RoA. Which would then force the Mages to fight for their lives, branding them apostates once they fled the Circle, and then their freedom.

[quote]Look, just because that was/could have been Meredeith's plan does not mean she would have been able to do it. Sort of reminds me of Ser Alrick's "Tranquil Solution" that everyone including Meredeith dismissed. [/quote]

Well for one, Meredith did approve it. Just not officially. It takes the First Enchanter's and the Knight-Commander's 
authority, signature, and seal to make a Mage Tranquil. There are records of each Mage's RoT that bear such things. This is what DAO tells us in the Magi Origin.

As such, Meredith could not have been ignorant of Alrik's illegal Tranquilizations. Anders wasn't, and he wasn't even a resident of the Circle. Orsino sure as hell wouldn't have been, because he speaks for his peoples' well-being and would have certainly made it known. 

So how in the hell could Meredith let such things go on? Easy: she either unofficially approved of Alrik's continued Tranquilizations to him, noticed them but didn't care, or didn't notice them and was thus incompetent. And all are likely, because of how Meredith acts. She did not approve of a search into the Lowtown Foundry despite all of Emeric's evidence presented to her -- Demons, a person fleeing, body parts, etc. -- which renders her incompetent. 

She shows utter contempt for mages and magic, indicating she wouldn't care. And she has promoted extremists many times over. Cullen's extreme views on Mages and magic mirrored her own -- though Cullen is able to keep those views in check -- and she similarly promoted Karras, Mettin, and Alrik to positions of authority.

They became Knight-Lieutenants.

And she fires Samson for delivering a letter, Thrask is relegated to being a lesser Templar in authority, and who knows what else.


[quote]Yeah, the mages would have just been happy to be even more confined than usual when they were already throwing a fuss with the bit of freedom they had. Okay. Whatever you say. [/quote]

If it's a choice between death or temporary imprisonment where they're relegated to just eating and sleeping in their rooms, I think they'll certainly go for the latter. Especially if the one who offered it was their own First Enchanter and not the Knight-Commander. The First Enchanter that fought against Meredith.


[quote]Reign in buddy. You're not a circle mage inside the game. [/quote]

No ****. That doesn't mean I can't call out bull**** arguments on here.


[quote]Says you, and what is your proof? Oh yeah seven or eight bad Templars. You're obviously very emotional about this. I don't think you have anything to offer this discussion. [/quote]

Meredith promotes extremists. This is in-game lore. She tasked Ser Mettin with leading a group of her hand-picked zealots and "purging" any citizen that aided a Mage.

And you fight a couple dozen Templars in that battle.

She promoted Ser Karras, one of her great cronies, to the rank of Knight-Lieutenant.

Ser Alrik is also in command of other Templars, per the letter to Ser Bardel fought in Anders' recruitment quest. Tobrius says that there are fewer Mages like Ser Maarevar Carver and Thrask says that before Meredith things were different, that when Meredith came to power she tightened the noose on Mages by instituting and rigidly enforcing extremely anti-mage policies.


[quote]It was TL;DR. [/quote]

So then say "That's a bit long, I'll read it and reply when I get a spare moment." 

Don't discount all of it out of hand because you're too lazy to read the damn thing. Don't say that because I provide evidence to back up my claim that I'm doing a bad job of it simply because you're too damn lazy


[quote]I did pay attention in game. My eyes weren't filled with tears over pixelated characters like yours obviously was. [/quote]

Hah, I don't cry over DAII's characters. Just because I debate the topic online does not mean I'm bawling my eyes out at everything. I actually despise DAII's failed execution of an idea that had tremendous potential.

You want a game that made me cry, it's The Walking Dead. 

[quote]

And Samson is rightfully out of job. You can't complain about people not doing their jobs then champion acts that have nothing to do with their employment.[/quote]

Some Circles actually allow Mages to have relationships. It's not hard to imagine that under Knight-Commander Guylian -- who at the time of his command the Circle was a place where Mages and Templars worked together and got along with each other -- such things were allowed.

What he was doing was not a case of him "not doing his job". At most, it was a case of engaging in something that while not criminal and not against the Templars' role, is still frowned upon. 

Regardless, firing him was out of line.

If Meredith is promoting people like Alrik, Mettin, and Karras -- all of whom hold views towards Mages that are not in line with what the Order stands for -- and firing people like Samson who actually do their job -- evidenced by his refusal to take part in a rebellion that involves blood magic and possibly even going to them with information -- but may bring letters back and forth to Mages, then there's something wrong there. 


[quote]It just seems to me that  any Templar who is nice to mages is doing their job and anyone who isn't nice mages aren't doing their job. [/quote]

I'll accept a Knight-Commander that's stern in his convictions, fair in his judgement, and reprimands problem Templars in ways that best fit each individual Templar.

In essence, Gregoir.

He is a nice man to the Mages but he does his duty.


[quote]Says you.[/quote]

So according to you, we should have more extremist Templars like Karras, Mettin, and Alrik. Karras, who rapes Mages and threatens them with Tranquility.

Mettin, who is willing to murder innocents that surrender to him or will do so because Meredith hand-picked him to kill anyone that helps a Mage.

And Alrik, who engaged in illegal Tranquility but was never disciplined.

Samson was apparently the one that should've been fired, but people like the three extremists noted above should remain in the Order?

Bah.[quote]Says you.
[/quote]No, it truly doesn't make sense.

[quote]TEWR wrote...

TEWR wrote...

the quest itself makes no sense from the perspective of a consistently pro-mage Hawke.

1) I can denounce Meredith and tell her that she needs to step down. I can agree with Orsino for that matter.

2) I can talk to Thrask, who flat out states that he knows I support the First Enchanter and that he agrees with the First Enchanter.

3) When I do end up doing this quest, a bunch of Templars and Mages say "We know you're spying for Orsino!" like that's a bad thing. It isn't. The man who is against Meredith sends out the Champion who is also against Meredith to ascertain the truth of why the Mages are going out at night. How is that a bad thing?

4) I go to the Wounded Coast and suddenly Thrask thinks I'm supporting Meredith, for no reason whatsoever.[/quote]



[quote]I'm not here to impress you.[/quote]

Evidently not, given how you've handled this discussion by ignoring points made out of laziness, dismissing arguments that use a lot of points and citing it as "doing a bad job of making a case", and resorting to such childish remarks as "You're too emotional".





[quote]And I have never advocated the entire purging of the circle. I guess this is when your head explodes.[/quote]

Supporting an RoA is supporting a purge of the Circle. That is its legal definition. If you support the RoA, you support the genocide of thousands of Mages. Men, women, and children.

[quote]And I have advocated that the circle needs to be clean of blood mages once and for all and for the safety of Kirkwall, its better to side with the Templars, as weak mages will be pushed into demon summoning and endagering people's lives.[/quote]

If your goal is the removal of blood mages, then executing people that aren't blood mages isn't going to accomplish that. In the Pro-Templar path, you will fight many Mages that do NOT use blood magic. For every one that did use blood magic, at least six more refrained from it and fought you conventionally.

And you killed them anyway.

Fact: Pro-Mage players see less blood mages, which points to them not turning to it in desperation thanks to the Champion's support.

[quote]Really? Didn't notice that around all your bellyaching.[/quote]

This is hardly the first thread I've posted in about Templars and Mages. I've even posted theoretical reforms to the Circle that, if implemented, would lend a better understanding of how best to deal with the issue. If one reform failed, it would still allow us to have further information to use on how to reform the Circle.


[quote]Now this, you actually make a good point....finally.[/quote]

If you'd read what I wrote instead of going "TL;DR" you'd see I make many good points. But I suppose asking you to take a discussion seriously is too much.

So in essence, I'm not here to impress you.


[quote]It would have been nice to see the random Templar in the middle of the fight. But then again, the only time you actually see guardsmen at work is when Aveline wanted to stalk Donnic. So I have to chalk it up to game crap on both sides.
[/quote]

You see the Guardsmen doing their duty with Evets' Marauders. 

Now, there's certainly incompetence in the City Guard under Aveline -- her refusal to search the foundry where the remains were found and Demons were fought when she might've been there is part of that -- but the Templars are more incompetent then Aveline and the City Guardsmen.

Both are incompetent, but the Templars moreso for upholding that they protect the citizens from the dangers of magic when they're really ignoring it so they can persecute the Mages..

You can't cite it as being "gameplay" because this is in-game lore. Hawke and Hawke's companions alone dealt with the criminal elements within the city.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 mars 2013 - 06:46 .

[TEWR]

Hazegurl wrote...

I know they were forced to make it. So far I have only been betrayed by Fenris and Merrill so I can't speak for the rest. What I noticed is that Merrill is happy and gives in far easily. While there is hesitation in Fenris's voice.  Fenris is definitely the stronger one of the two and I can actually believe him when he speaks of mind control. Although Merrill says she was controlled and I believe her as well. Her eagerness when offered power in the Fade made me think "Thanks for the apology but I'm watching you, dammit!" 

She doesn't give in. She's being outright mind controlled. Out of the three the Pride Demon controls, she is the most prideful. I do not deny that.

That amount of Pride allowed the Pride Demon to easily control her mind, just as Allure was able to easily control Lady Harimann's mind because of her desire to rule Starkhaven -- to the point that allure made Lady Harrimann a Mage.

It's not that she wasn't fighting back, it's that she couldn't. Her pride was her undoing in that moment, but it's a unique set of circumstances that only applies to trips to the Fade where the plans of Pride Demons are thwarted. So you can't use this as indicative of her being unable to handle Demons. As I said before, Demons of Pride and Desire prefer to use subtle manipulation rather then outright mind control -- deeming it crude -- but will use such measures as a last resort.

As such, on trips where Merrill goes to the Fade as a Mage it's not the same thing as what happens in Night Terrors -- something she makes note of to Hawke, how all of her prior dealings with spirits (which all denizens of the Fade are) have been careful.

Night Terrors had a Pride Demon's plans thwarted by outsiders which then prompted him to go "**** it, I'm getting a host one way or the other".

However, this is actually one thing that helps her in the long run. Her pride at being a Dalish Elf lessens over time -- evident by Act 3 comments she makes, particularly how if romanced Hawke is what she considers most important to her -- and she's now even more prepared at dealing with Demons. The circumstances are unique and not easily replicated, but that doesn't mean the lessons learned aren't beneficial.

I'd consider Fenris' more damning however. For all his talk of hating Mages, he secretly harbors a desire to be one to match their strength with. While the Demon took advantage of this, it makes Fenris appear a hypocrite when he wants to hold his head up higher and higher and say that most Mages are weak, that magic is something that spoils whatever it touches, and so on.

More so when one learns that he has Mage blood in his veins and that it's quite possibly this very same bloodline that let him survive the ritual he so fought for.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 mars 2013 - 07:40 .

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

 Aveline and Isaballa get taken over by the Spirit of Desire, Aveline for her desire to see and have Wesley back, and Isabella....likes big ships.

Yup, the Demon of Desire used Aveline's desire to protect anyone and everyone against her, by reminding her of her failure to save Wesley. And so if she can erase that failure from her past, she'll be truly at peace.

Though I'd conjecture Isabela's is less about "here's a ship!" and more about "Here's freedom. Freedom to sail the high seas, to live the life you were meant to" and so on. 

Furthermore, I'd conjecture that based on Isabela's testimony of how all she could see was the ship before her thanks to the Demon, that the Pride Demon did the same to Merrill and the rest. It showed them this single thing, and when they began to fight against it the images became stronger and stronger.

So... I guess in a word it'd be indoctrination Mass Effect style?

[dragonflight288]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

 Aveline and Isaballa get taken over by the Spirit of Desire, Aveline for her desire to see and have Wesley back, and Isabella....likes big ships.

Yup, the Demon of Desire used Aveline's desire to protect anyone and everyone against her, by reminding her of her failure to save Wesley. And so if she can erase that failure from her past, she'll be truly at peace.

Though I'd conjecture Isabela's is less about "here's a ship!" and more about "Here's freedom. Freedom to sail the high seas, to live the life you were meant to" and so on. 

Furthermore, I'd conjecture that based on Isabela's testimony of how all she could see was the ship before her thanks to the Demon, that the Pride Demon did the same to Merrill and the rest. It showed them this single thing, and when they began to fight against it the images became stronger and stronger.

So... I guess in a word it'd be indoctrination Mass Effect style?

Maybe? The indoctrination in Mass Effect is subtle, but the stronger the indoctrination becomes, the less useful the indoctrinated is. We see that in Mass Effect 1, where those salarians were mindless drones by the time Shepard got to Virmire. Demons don't make people completely brain dead.

[Rinshikai10]

Silfren wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

@ Silfren

I think you are misinterpreting what I'm trying to say. The reason I use the Warden as an example is because of their neutral stance in Thedas. They accept people from all walks of life, and go through life or death rituals like a Mages harrowing, which could allow them to relate to the Mages in some way. I know that they are not the most honorable group out there, but as far as I know they are the only true neutral group that I can think of.

I don't think that Mages working with their guardians is a unachievable goal. What I think is a dream is the current Templars and Mages solving their distrust within the current system. There is just too much hate from both sides.

I like the idea of a secular leaders, training to protect mages and non mages alike, but would moderate Templars be able to take their faith out of training a new group? Evangeline is a good woman in my POV, but she still seems to have loyalties to the Divine. Who isn't a Secular leader, and is too connected to her faith in the Chantry.

Plus would you not have to get most nations to agree to this training of a new order? If only one nation did this, it could cause problems.

I agree that lyrium is going to be a major issue in the future.

Evangeline is an example of a Templar who is an Andrastian without the crazy.  I'm not saying it's necessary for the Templars in my proposed new group to be atheists, or anti-Andrastian.  I'm saying they need to not be indoctrinated with anti-mage fervor.

Evangeline's loyalties to the Divine, if I recall, remain intact specifically because she and the Divine we are talking about are essentially on the same side.  Remember, Divine Justinia is in favor of reforming the Circle system.

Ah I see I can agree that with no indoctrianted with anti Mage fervor. Have a faith but don't let it control your every action.

Both you and TEWR have fairly sound plans that in my POV could work.

I also recall that Evangeline did not side with Justinia until after her mission was revealed by the Demon. Making her rethink her actions.

When it cames to Justinia I can repect her for trying to reform the Circle system, but she is very Idealisic in her actions. looking for a perfect solution that may not be real. She does not appear to want the Mages to leave Chantry control Circles, going as far as disbanding the collage of Magi. Creating a problem later on when they are allowed to meet. All the actions I remember her doing feel like a delaying act. She can talk a big game but, I don't think that she has any real power by Asunder.

But this is just my opinion an this matter.

It's been a while since I read Asunder, so I'm more than a little fuzzy on a lot of the details.  Probably I should re-read it.  Anyway, I agree that Justinia is idealistic, but I don't think she's overly so.  She IS a woman more concerned with the charity and compassion aspect of the Maker's faith, than the judgment and damnation bit, and this seems to be due to her personal life experiences as a woman with something of an illicit past.  The best woman for the job, in my view.  But remember that in she concurred with Lambert that the de-Tranquiled mage was mage Tranquil for a reason and should be re-Tranquiled.  I hated her just a little bit in that scene, but I think it marks her as a woman who is not so idealistic that she's blind to reason or practicality.

One thing of note about Justinia is that she's quite young for a Divine.  The lore in the game makes the point that she's resented by more than a few people who got used to having their Divines be decrepit old women too lost in the throes of dementia to feed themselves.  In other words, quite a few groups seeking power and influence rather liked the setup of being able to do what they damn well pleased.  So she doesn't have a lot of power, in the sense that she's got quite a few people aligned against her just for having total control of her faculties and having the wit to argue with them and tell them "No."  But it seems that she actually does have more power than the previous Divine for that same reason.  And there are always going to be groups who are loyal to her for one reason and another.  Some because they are religious devouts who see her as the spiritual representative of their goddess, and others just because they're loyal to the woman herself.

I agree with you that she is doing a more active role then a lot of Divines, but you and I will have different views on her leadership actions. Aside from her plan in Asunder I have not seen her do anything else to calm either group until after the battle of Kirkwall. Despite many pieces of evidence being shown to her since she became Divine.


Though codex's say she is very forgiving of sinners. I fear that she is not thinking very far ahead. Choosing Wynne to speak to the mages on her behalf was IMHO, a poor decision because many within the Circle consider her a trader. She allows the disbanding of the Collage once Fiona was elected to Grand Enchanter, which feels like a staling act for her grand plan of the tranquil research. Earning her more distrust by the mages. When she does allow the gathering she appears to expect the Mages to be one her side, yet Asunder shows the moderate Aequitarians that would support Wynne, start to see that Fiona has a point.


The point you make on reason or practicality about Lambert does hold some ground. However, I want to point out that her actions cost nearly one thousand people their lives for her research. That IMV could have been avoided have she gained the trust of some Seekers or maybe loyal Templars go there to act as a safeguards should the worse happen.

I'm a fan of Sun Tzu's The Art of War and other philosophers. So I'm going to use some quotes from it as well as a few I feel have a point.

A house divided against itself cannot stand. I believe this government cannot endure, permanently, half slave and half free. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved — I do not expect the house to fall — but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It will become all one thing or all the other. Either the opponents of slavery will arrest the further spread of it, and place it where the public mind shall rest in the belief that it is in the course of ultimate extinction; or its advocates will push it forward, till it shall become lawful in all the States, old as well as new — North as well as South.[1] Lincolns House Divined Speech.

The Chantry like it or not is divided, I feel that Justinia is looking for a middle ground that that isn't there. A compromise with the Chantry is a great idea in theory, but it would IMHO only work if Justinia had the full backing of all groups.

Time is a created thing. To say 'I don't have time,' is like saying, 'I don't want to. Lao Tzu

Some have said to me that "If Justina had more time things would be different." Yet she had six years to do something, and all that was done was her Tranquil research, and is now looking for the Warden and Hawke to fix the problem.

Regard your soldiers as your children, and they will follow you into the deepest valleys; look upon them as your own beloved sons, and they will stand by you even unto death. If, however, you are indulgent, but unable to make your authority felt; kind-hearted, but unable to enforce your commands; and incapable, moreover, of quelling disorder: then your soldiers must be likened to spoilt children; they are useless for any practical purpose."

Unhappy is the fate of one who tries to win his battles and succeed in his attacks without cultivating the spirit of enterprise; for the result is waste of time and general stagnation. Hence the saying: The enlightened ruler lays his plans well ahead; the good general cultivates his resources."

Sun Tzu

Both of these quotes by Sun Tzu have me looking to Justinia's Management style of her Chantry.

I agree that she is kind-hearted to people who work for her, but she doesn't feel like she willing to play the tyrant to her own people, even though that is sometimes necessary for success. Like Elthina I feel that she is scolding Lambert like a child rather then showing she is his direct leader and as such she is in charge. I know that Lambert has more power with the Seekers and Templars then she does, but I feel that the point is still valid.

In my view like Elthina, Justinia is a good clergy leader, but she does not have a great concept of managing a international institute in terms of military power and political governing.

I feel that she is putting so much of her resources into her research and keeping it hidden from everyone. That now she is neglecting all others under her. Resulting in the momentum going against her rather then with her when she does reveal her plans to Lambert(Waited too long in my view). Who like many others have already made up their minds about the current situation.

I know people will say that I'm too harsh on her but that is how I see it. I'm sorry for derailing this discussion, I just wanted to speak my POV on the topic.

I don't want to derail it any further, because I have a discussion board on the Dragon age wiki about her. It would likely be better to do that here rather then here if anyone wishes to continue.

@dragonflight

Thank you for pointing out that I did not think about checks and balances.

[Hazegurl]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I really liked Merril dispite her being a blood mage. I do find her to be the most responsible of the lot. But the way she so nonchalantly betrays Hawke when a demon offers power is unsettling. At least Fenris is a bit hesitant. She's actually quite happy to do so. Still love the girl but I wouldn't put much faith in her and her dealings with demons

Bah. Pride Demons and Desire Demons are capable of mind control when they're in the Fade -- the realm where they're at their most powerful -- but are hesitant to resort to such measures, deeming them crude. They use them as last resorts when their other plans fail.

When Hawke destroys the tapestry of illusion they were weaving to subtly manipulate Feynriel, they are now resorting to outright mind control, which they will use on all of the companions save for Anders, depending on who you brought along. Aveline, Varric, and Merrill all say that they were controlled by the Demon in question. They didn't freely make the choice, they were forced to make it.

I know they were forced to make it. So far I have only been betrayed by Fenris and Merrill so I can't speak for the rest. What I noticed is that Merrill is happy and gives in far easily. While there is hesitation in Fenris's voice.  Fenris is definitely the stronger one of the two and I can actually believe him when he speaks of mind control. Although Merrill says she was controlled and I believe her as well. Her eagerness when offered power in the Fade made me think "Thanks for the apology but I'm watching you, dammit!"

Her eagerness wasn't so much about gaining power but being part of saving her people, giving them a home, restoring the lost culture of Arlathan. That's what the whole point of Dalish is about.

Merrill is proud, proud to be Dalish. Proud of her work, and takes great pride in trying to do what she thinks is best. Out of all of them, I think Merrill might have the most pride, as she is always first pick, but Fenris has a great deal of pride as well. Aveline and Isaballa get taken over by the Spirit of Desire, Aveline for her desire to see and have Wesley back, and Isabella....likes big ships. Varic also gets taken over by the pride demon if you have Anders, Aveline/Isabella and Varic in the party, as Anders/Justice can't be taken over by any of the demons, as Justice is a Fade Spirit as well.

Every companion, save the one who is already possessed, falls to temptation.

I agree, she does have a lot of pride. Even Fenris points it out when she starts going on about the Dalish. However, I am still hesitant of her. You get friendship points with her by giving Fenyrial over to Torpor. So, yeah, while I like Merrill, I agree with Fenris' that she is a monster that I would never fully trust. Therefore, I do not trust her apology 100%. She loves demons too much for my taste. Her only redeeming quality with her demonology dealings is that at least she's not a raving lunatic because of it.

I've thought of playing again and bringing a different combo to see what each companion falls for. But I guess I don't really have to now. lol! What does Varric betray you for?

[dragonflight288]

Hazegurl wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I really liked Merril dispite her being a blood mage. I do find her to be the most responsible of the lot. But the way she so nonchalantly betrays Hawke when a demon offers power is unsettling. At least Fenris is a bit hesitant. She's actually quite happy to do so. Still love the girl but I wouldn't put much faith in her and her dealings with demons

Bah. Pride Demons and Desire Demons are capable of mind control when they're in the Fade -- the realm where they're at their most powerful -- but are hesitant to resort to such measures, deeming them crude. They use them as last resorts when their other plans fail.

When Hawke destroys the tapestry of illusion they were weaving to subtly manipulate Feynriel, they are now resorting to outright mind control, which they will use on all of the companions save for Anders, depending on who you brought along. Aveline, Varric, and Merrill all say that they were controlled by the Demon in question. They didn't freely make the choice, they were forced to make it.

I know they were forced to make it. So far I have only been betrayed by Fenris and Merrill so I can't speak for the rest. What I noticed is that Merrill is happy and gives in far easily. While there is hesitation in Fenris's voice.  Fenris is definitely the stronger one of the two and I can actually believe him when he speaks of mind control. Although Merrill says she was controlled and I believe her as well. Her eagerness when offered power in the Fade made me think "Thanks for the apology but I'm watching you, dammit!"

Her eagerness wasn't so much about gaining power but being part of saving her people, giving them a home, restoring the lost culture of Arlathan. That's what the whole point of Dalish is about.

Merrill is proud, proud to be Dalish. Proud of her work, and takes great pride in trying to do what she thinks is best. Out of all of them, I think Merrill might have the most pride, as she is always first pick, but Fenris has a great deal of pride as well. Aveline and Isaballa get taken over by the Spirit of Desire, Aveline for her desire to see and have Wesley back, and Isabella....likes big ships. Varic also gets taken over by the pride demon if you have Anders, Aveline/Isabella and Varic in the party, as Anders/Justice can't be taken over by any of the demons, as Justice is a Fade Spirit as well.

Every companion, save the one who is already possessed, falls to temptation.

I agree, she does have a lot of pride. Even Fenris points it out when she starts going on about the Dalish. However, I am still hesitant of her. You get friendship points with her by giving Fenyrial over to Torpor. So, yeah, while I like Merrill, I agree with Fenris' that she is a monster that I would never fully trust. Therefore, I do not trust her apology 100%. She loves demons too much for my taste. Her only redeeming quality with her demonology dealings is that at least she's not a raving lunatic because of it.

I've thought of playing again and bringing a different combo to see what each companion falls for. But I guess I don't really have to now. lol! What does Varric betray you for?

Merrill says in the deep roads that we can learn from demons if we listen to them, but don't do anything they say. Her stance isn't giving Fenriel to Torpor, but to play the demon before the demon plays the person. She discusses tricking demons to get ahead, not giving them what they want.

You get friendship points with Anders/Justice if you agree to give Fenriel to Torpor, and then explain that you had no intention of doing so, but wanted the information Torpor had and was playing him. Why wouldn't Merrill be different?

And she doesn't love demons. She specifically tells Anders that ALL spirits are dangerous. And a demon is nothing more than a spirit who represents a vice, like desire, sloth, anger or pride, instead of a virtue. And in many definitions, a demon is just a spirit who's intersted in experiencing the mortal world. Nothing more and nothing less.

By that definition, Justice is a demon by the end of Awakening when he admits that he feels drawn to the mortal world and how he's become somewhat envious that mortals have what spirits don't. He still does everything he can to embody justice, but he does show a longing to have what the mortal world offers. As such, Anders made a deal with a demon and allowed it to possess him.

The spirit of Faith that possesses Wynne, has taken an interest in a mortal and interferes with mortal affairs, and by that definition also qualifies as a demon.

All spirits are dangerous, and Merrill takes all the necessary precautions. I've never seen her once make a mistake, except in a situation where she can be mind controlled by a pride demon. She recognizes how to defend yourself from sloth demons, and gives advice on how to do it when facing Torpor, she instantly recognizes the hunger demons in the deep roads, and she has enough knowledge to examine Kerran's blood and determine if a demon is present or not, whereas Anders uses Justice for the knowledge on demons and simply attacks Kerran to see if a possible demon would fight back.

Varric betrays you for the power to get revenge on Bartrand.

[TEWR]

However, I am still hesitant of her. You get friendship points with her by giving Fenyrial over to Torpor

No, you get friendship points for listening to Torpor and not dismissing valuable information he has on the state of Feynriel's mind simply because "he's a demon". Merrill says, in the Deep Roads, that you can play a Demon before he plays you if you're careful. This is something Hawke and the Warden can both accomplish.

What she's giving friendship points for is that she believes this is what you're doing. That you're using Torpor for your benefit to save Feynriel, but you're not actually going to sell him out.

She's not actually around when and if you sell out Feynriel's soul for real. Plus this:

dragonflight288 wrote...

You get friendship points with Anders/Justice if you agree to give Fenriel to Torpor, and then explain that you had no intention of doing so, but wanted the information Torpor had and was playing him. Why wouldn't Merrill be different?

She loves demons too much for my taste

She does not. She notes all spirits -- which Demons fall under -- are dangerous in conversation with Anders and that there's no such thing as a good spirit. Circle Mages and Dalish Mages alike note that all the denizens of the Fade are spirits. Andrastians tend to label the benign spirits as Spirits -- with a capital S -- and the malicious spirits as Demons.

In truth, one could say the failure for the Circles to teach that all the denizens of the Fade are dangerous has done more lasting harm to the Mages then good, if Anders' views on Spirits are any indication in the aforementioned Anders/Merrill conversation.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 mars 2013 - 03:58 .

[Hazegurl]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Just because some came from the Circle does not mean the Circle is corrupt
beyond repair. Every Circle is going to have a few bad eggs. That doesn't mean
that 3 should be used as evidence to slaughter 3000. It's even more absurd to
use apostates as justification for the Circle being corrupt.[/quote]

Yes I can assume more mages are corrupt. If you have one dog with fleas,
are you just going to assume the rest don't or check to make sure?

I don't think the RoA was needed but once done there was nothing much to do
except help Mages or Templars. If there was a way Hawke could prevent it. I
would have chosen that option. When forced to make a choice.  I
picked Templars. At least the hidden blood mages in the circle would be rooted
out. Which they were.

As for the Deciums quest. I don't see how it didn't make sense for a pro-mage
Hawke. Just because you are pro-mage does not mean some stranger knows that or
that all mages will like you and see you as an ally. What I do like about DA2
is that they give you quests that allows you to see the situation from
different perspectives. I saw Deciums as a guy driven to protect Grace and the
others and lashed out at the first person he saw. Not to mention the whole
blood magic thing wasn't doing him any good. When I first played, I went in
there to help them out but after getting attacked, then Grace asking me to kill
the Templar outside. I had no issues with turning them in. I have had another
playthrough where I get Varric to lie, which was funny. But they get caught and
then she blames Hawke for it. People like them exist. You can help and help and
help but they are just nothing but trouble.

No, they were driven to depraved acts because that is the choice they made.
They condemn all mages.

[quote]Apostates do not condemn the Circle for their acts and if the Templars
legitimately...[/quote]
There are no legitimate reasons to become a blood mage.

[quote]Oh please, any idiot could tell if a Mage is using blood magic if he's
got large gashes along his body/arms or scars to go with them.[/quote]

I had a blood mage Hawke. Didn't see him with any scars. Apparently blood mages
can stab themselves in the chest with their huge staffs and come out squeaky
clean and perfectly healed.

Viscount and Elthina were both weak leaders and allowed Meredith to railroad them. that's why
it doesn't surprise me to see the Viscount's head roll down the steps. Reardless
of Meredith's role, he still could have done something. anything. But he and
Elthina are just failures.

[quote]When one person claims to be neutral, they are by default supporting the
oppressors.[/quote]
That is not the truth. Neutrality is not default support. To even say that is a
false definition of the neutral pov.  Neutrality is unbias and impartial.
It's avoiding making direct statements about anything regardless of the facts.
Which is what Elthina was doing. Do I agree with her way of handling it? No.
But that is what she chose to do. According to Cullen she is be duty bound to
side with the Templars. However, she opts for a neutral stance. Why? IMO, she
did so because it was her way of silently protesting the Templars without going
against her duty and speaking out against them. She chose to not take a side.
The fact that she chose not to take a side meant that she did not support the
Templars. She should have done more, she should have said "screw this duty
bound crap" but she didn't do it and paid for her silence. The only thing
I can say she did was keep Meredith in line somewhat and would have prevented
the RoA if Anders the possessed idiot didn't come up with the plan that killing
her was the best thing ever.

[quote]Orsino was simply living up to the legacy of his predecessor from Ages
ago,
[/quote]
That is just your opinion. I do not see Orsino as a hero.  I see him as
the reason Meredith was paranoid in the first place. Another stain on all
mages.

[quote]By convincing the nobility to stand against Meredith, they undermine her
authority....[/quote]
Meredith was a power hungry you know what and its sad that none of the nobles
could stand up to her. The way I see it. While it would have been nice for
Meredith to be a fair minded woman whose only desire is to be loved by
everyone, that is not what she was and the nobles were a bunch of weak fools
who never do anything anyway. If anything Orsino should have held a secret
meeting with the nobles and Elthina to petition Hawke as the new Viscount.
After seeing if Hawke was a reasonable person concerning mages et al. of
course. Shouting to nobles in the streets and getting the attention of your
enemy was just dumb.
[quote]
Hawke has been known to fail and get lucky. And the RoA is defined by the
complete purge of every Mage in the Circle.[/quote]

Hawke didn't become Champion of Kirkwall by failing and getting lucky. His
riches, perhaps, and even then he was the only one who could have made the
journey and lead his companions to safety along side Varric, that's called
skill, regardless of the luck. And repeating the definition of RoA does not
mean it has to come to that, as it doesn't in the actual game. So much for what
the RoA means.
[quote]The RoA is finished after Orsino dies. Meredith says "It is
done" and asks you to meet her outside, where all the Templars are
gathered.
There are no Mages left. Save for the 3-4 that Hawke might possibly allow to
live.
So you didn't "stop the RoA". You just finished it.[/quote]

Then you've contridicted yourself. If the RoA is only done when every
mage is dead, then there is no reason for Meredith to say the RoA is finished.

[quote]David Gaider, .....
Are you going to say his word is not acceptable?[/quote]
Yes, I am. "More than likely" is not "will be." A high
possibly is still just a possibly. If he wants people to take him at his word,
then put it in the game. It's not in the game, then I don't care nor do I have
to take it as a fact.

[quote]And I think your Hawke was wrong, because no mob forms at all.[/quote]
No mob had a chance to form. It was RoA to fighting Mages or Mages/Templars in
the streets and people running for their lives. You expect a mob to form within
five minutes of an explosion? That makes zero sense.

[quote]The fact of the matter is that while his information would've helped, it
was not necessary for the Templars to do their job regarding Quentin. They
had sufficient evidence in Act 1 to warrant an investigation and possibly
apprehend Quentin.[/quote]

They were investigating. Perhaps if Orsino had told them of the secret
locations he was leaving books for him the Templars could have caught him
sooner. But just keep on making excuses for him. He is your hero after all.

[quote]Meredith can not be trusted to think and act rationally
.[/quote]
Regardless of whatever Meredith's problems were. Orsino is responsible for his
own choices. He is a grown man. There comes a time when "X made me do
it" is simply not good enough.

[quote]Oh please, Orsino keeping information hidden to prevent an act of
genocide from being called. [/quote]
Once again. Excuses excuses. He kept his secret to hide the fact that he had a
connection to Quentin. He was saving his own skin.
[quote]You might have a point if the First Enchanter had a legitimate say in
whether an RoA could be performed. But he doesn't.[/quote]

Yet he seems to place so much faith in Elthina siding with him against Meredith
over a room search. Now I'm supposed to believe he was so scared about a
possible RoA. Here's a suggestion for Orsino, Don't want mages to look bad?
Don't help serial killers because they are mages.

[quote]Also, not all Mages if left to police themselves would initiate another
Imperium. The Mages' Collective, for instance,.[/quote]

I disagree. The fact that they still use Templars says that is a more of a
mage-templar effort even if Templars are a part of it. Besides, how big are the
mages collective? from what I gather from Origins they seem like a small group,
a club more than anything. Mages should not govern themselves completely. Not
on a large scale. All it takes is for one powerful mage to make it to the top
to set the rules and every mage will have to do more to compete. Can you
imagine if politicians in real life were mages? I shudder at the thought.

[quote]Well yeah, he was afraid that Meredith would use his connection to
Quentin as proof positive of the Circle's corruption, Orsino's testimony on the
subject be damned.[/quote]

This has nothing at all to do with Orsino writing secret letters praising
Quentin for his work.

[quote]And he's not wrong. She calls for an RoA on the flimsiest
of reasons[/quote]

I would hardly consider bombing the Chantry a flimsy reason for a RoA. A reason
for an irrational call for a RoA yes, but never would I consider it flimsy.

[quote]She wanted to annul the Circle and just used the first thing that
came to her mind to try and give justification for it. Supported by Karras
talking of how she's gone over Elthina's head petitioning for the RoA and her
talks of "I'm eager to begin the RoA" and "the Circle will know fear!"
during the RoA.[/quote]

She was being irrational, the bombing of the Chantry solidfied her belief in a
RoA. Perhaps she was happy it did as she was called crazy for a while, even
among her own Templars. But what does any of this have to do with Orsino's
failure as First Enchanter?

[quote]The Templars, assuredly. The 5% of decent ones among them have all been
killed, suspended, or have resigned from the Order.[/quote]

That's a rather bold and totally bias and unproven statement.

[quote]If the Templars cannot think for themselves that an RoA is not
necessary, that the true ideals... [/quote]

Based only on your opinion and any one who agrees with you. which doesn't make
it a fact.  I can easily say that many are driven by the bombing and truly
see this as a last resort, others just see it as a way to protect their loved
ones, some could just want a roof over their heads and not die in the streets
by quitting their jobs, or some may see that siding with mages gets you killed
in the end by them anyway.

[quote]The Maker gave them a brain. They should either use it, quit, or jump
off of a cliff.[/quote]
So you believe people should maryter themselves for the sake of mages? Who are
they that they deserve such unshakable loyalty?

[quote]It's funny, you use the actions of Mages -- apostates or no -- to
condemn thousands of Circle Mages, children amongst them. But then you
take issue when I point out that the Templars of Kirkwall are malicious pricks
more often then not?[/quote]

I don't condemn them. Hence my opinion that blood mages are a stain on good
mages. You just can't get over that I side with the Templars and you view that
choice as a black and white view on mages. Not all Templars are the evil
monsters you claim, and the ones who are, are just as much of a stain on good
Templars as evil mages are on good mages.

[quote]Orsino wasn't even given a goddamn chance to speak after the bombing.
After Anders blew up the Circle, .[/quote]

Too bad for Orsino. I'm not saying he and the mages didn't have a right to
fight for their lives. No one should just lay down and die cause someone tells
them to. Meredith was irrational. Orsino had a right to fight. But he is just
as much to blame for the rising issues and both he and Meredith needed to be
locked in a room to duel to the death with death as the prize.  I didn't
too much care for either of them and didn't even like being made to pick a
side, but I had no reason to care for mages enough to throw my (Hawke's) life
away and everything he built in Kirkwall for them.

[quote]And what the hell does it matter when he offers the search to Meredith?
The thing that matters is that it was offered and that's it.[/quote]

It does matter. He offered it too little too late.

[quote]Give me proof that those blood mages -- of which there are only a dozen
fought total, some under a Demon's command -- were secret blood mages and not
Mages that went to Demons for knowledge on blood magic like Fenris says will
happen or that just stumbled upon it by cutting their wrists in
desperation.[/quote]

Such a fallacious argument.

[quote]Fact: In at least a few battles, Demons come through of their own
volition.[/quote]

Typically around blood mages or mages who were dealing with dark magic. 
Who can cut their wrist in desperation and just randomly know advanced blood
magic? Someone should have told those mages in the circle who were using their
regular powers and got cut down by Templars. 

[quote]Fact: Pride Demons are capable of summoning other Demons, which you
see happen.[/quote]

Yet the Pride demons aren't killing the mages

[quote]Fact: Not all of the Blood Mages were in control of their minds. Two at
least were under the control of a Desire Demon.[/quote]

One they most likely summoned.

[quote]Fact: In the pro-Mage side, you do not fight as many blood mages. Some
of the Mages that turned to blood magic in the pro-Templar side do not do so in
the pro-mage side, indicating that it was desperation that drove them to
it.[/quote]

What ticks me off about the pro mage side is the fact that I have to fight
mages period. But it is consistent with the game. Mages have shown that they
will turn on those who help them.

[quote]Fact: Anders suggests that any Mage can just stumble upon blood magic's
powers by cutting their wrists.[/quote]

Says one possessed liar's opinion. And even if he was telling the truth. How
would they know all the skills and techniques in the heat of battle? Maybe
something basic and not long lasting. But give me a break that some mage can
learn all the formiable skills of a seasoned blood mage in the span of a few
hours.

[quote]If you fear a monster under your bed so much that you create the monster
itself, who is at fault? Driving a Mage to commit blood magic because of an
unjustified, unwarranted, and unethical RoA puts the blame on the
Templars.[/quote]

You seem to only believe that Templars should be held accountable for their
rotten actions.

[quote]
I say the latter. Fighting for your life in a case like the Kirkwall RoA is
justified.[/quote]

I never said they couldn't fight for their lives. Just because they do does not
mean that Hawke or anyone else have to let them run the streets with their
naked demons all over the place. Hawke does not owe them anything.

[quote]That was his point. By removing the entire line of priests that had
command or would take command over the Templars, he gave Meredith the Lunatic
authority to approve of whatever she wanted -- including the RoA. Which would
then force the Mages to fight for their lives, branding them apostates once
they fled the Circle, and then their freedom.[/quote]

He doesn't remove anything. Just one Chantry in one city. In the process he
condemns all of Kirkwall to a possible Exalted March in which case the mages
are just f*cked. I sometimes wonder if he just figured that the mages would
have freedom in death just like his freedom in death from Justice and his
obvious chronic depression.

[quote]Well for one, Meredith did approve it. Just not officially. It takes the
First Enchanter's and the Knight-Commander's 

authority, signature, and seal to make a Mage Tranquil. There are records of
each Mage's RoT that bear such things. This is what DAO tells us in the Magi
Origin.[/quote]

If she was such the power mad woman you and I agree on, then it makes me wonder
why she just didn't bypass them and approve. She had the power to do so. If I
were to speculate on it,  I would say she wasn't that lost to the idol yet
and had some sense.

[quote]As such, Meredith could not have been ignorant of Alrik's illegal
Tranquilizations. Anders wasn't...[/quote]

So it's possible that Meredith knew but Orsino did not? Is that your point? If
so, then I wonder how Anders knew from sneaking around the circle but Orsino,
who lives in the circle, has no clue. The fact remians is that she dismissed
it. You nor I have the proof to argue whether or not she allowed it to
continue. It's all just speculation.  As for the Lowtown foundry, I never
got the reasons for not allowing Emeric to investigate. The only thing I can
say for that is that the killer did a good job of covering his actual hiding
place, even Hawke did not see the door there until the killer got sloppy. It
could have been a case of "How many times can we search this one place and come
up with nothing." But that is only a guess. 

[quote]She shows utter contempt for mages and magic, indicating she wouldn't
care.[/quote]

So? Of course she shows a contempt for magic, she  doesn't have to love
magic and mages to do her job. I'm not saying she was good at it, but she does
not need those qualities to be a Templar. And what boss doesn't promote like
minded employees? It doesn't mean she is the best at her job, but that is what
people do.
[quote]And she fires Samson for delivering a letter, Thrask is relegated to
being a lesser Templar in authority, and who knows what else.[/quote]

Samson wasn't doing his job. Not saying the other Templars (besides Cullen)
are. But he also was not doing his job, so he lost it.

[quote]If it's a choice between death or temporary imprisonment ...[/quote]

That is just making assumptions. We don't know if they would be happy with it
and accepted it or hated it and chose rebellion. At least if they did rebel, it
would be contained inside the gallows.

[quote]No ****. That doesn't mean I can't call out bull**** arguments on
here.[/quote]
You certainly act like you are by getting far too heated.

[quote]So then say "That's a bit long, I'll read it and reply when I get a
spare moment."
Don't discount all of it out of hand because you're too lazy to read the damn
thing. Don't say that because I provide evidence to back up my claim that I'm
doing a bad job of it simply because you're too damn lazy[/quote]

Let’s see, you do nothing but constantly repeat yourself in
your posts which  makes them extremely [/b]redundant to read and to
reply to. Even in this one I have to snip some stuff, some of which you’ve
already pointed out in earlier posts and in above sentences and even then I’m
being polite enough not to snip all of your redundant points. I’ve already disagreed
with most of what you had to say, yet you continue to believe that if you just
keep posting it again and again it will somehow be agreed upon. It won’t.  A simple agree to disagree works fine. It was TL;DR. which meant I wasn’t going to ever read it.  You can call me lazy if you like, but your
writing/debate flaws are your own. Sure everyone including me can be redundant,
but you wrote the book on it.

[quote]Hah, I don't cry over DAII's characters. Just because I debate the topic
online does not mean I'm bawling my eyes out at everything. I actually despise
DAII's failed execution of an idea that had tremendous potential.

You want a game that made me cry, it's The Walking Dead. 

[/quote]

Good. Not all hope is lost then. Please don’t mention TWD
game. Those bastards got me too.

[quote]Some Circles actually allow Mages to have relationships. It's not hard
to imagine that under Knight-Commander Guylian -- who at the time of
his command the Circle was a place where Mages and Templars worked
together and got along with each other -- such things were allowed.[/quote]

It’s not Samson’s job to deliver love letters. As I’ve
already had to say before.

[/quote]I'll accept a Knight-Commander that's stern in his
convictions, fair in his judgement, and reprimands problem Templars in ways
that best fit each individual Templar.
In essence, Gregoir.
He is a nice man to the Mages but he does his duty.[/quote]

I prefer Cullen. I’ve already stated why.

[quote]So according to you, we should have more extremist
Templars like Karras, Mettin, and Alrik. Karras, who rapes Mages and threatens
them with Tranquility. [/quote]

No, I’m saying it is only your opinion as to who deserves
the job and who doesn’t.


[quote]If your goal is the removal of blood mages, then executing people that
aren't blood mages isn't going to accomplish that. In the Pro-Templar path, you
will fight many Mages that do NOT use blood magic. For every one that did use
blood magic, at least six more refrained from it and fought you conventionally.
And you killed them anyway.[/quote]

Yep, I did. I never said no innocent mages would die. I said the
blood mages would be rooted out. Any innocent mage who surrendered would have
been spared by my Hawke.

[quote]If you'd read what I wrote instead of going "TL;DR" you'd
see I make many good points. But I suppose asking you to take a discussion
seriously is too much.
So in essence, I'm not here to impress you.[/quote]

You make many points, that part is true.
[quote]You can't cite it as being "gameplay" because this is in-game lore.
Hawke and Hawke's companions alone dealt with the criminal elements within the
city.[/quote]

Just when you were about to be unbiased you just couldn’t
handle it. It is game play and nothing more. All the criminals running loose,
all the criminal hideouts Hawke has to find and deal with, even in Hightown.
The Guardsmen pretenders, which I remember as the first group you fight in
hightown. I don’t play games to see everyone doing their jobs, the
devs need it that way. But for story purposes, it’s ridiculous to assume that
everyone aren’t doing their jobs based on a handful you run into.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 10 mars 2013 - 05:42 .

[Hazegurl]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Merrill says in the deep roads that we can learn from demons if we listen to them, but don't do anything they say. Her stance isn't giving Fenriel to Torpor, but to play the demon before the demon plays the person. She discusses tricking demons to get ahead, not giving them what they want.

And everyone including the Keeper agrees that she is playing a dangerous game that would have soon bit her hard. As for Anders, you tell him that you had no intent to give the boy to the demon. Merrill wanted you to give the boy to the demon. That is the difference. I got 5 rivalry with her when I talked to the demon, fought Anders, then told the demon no and killed it. 

And she doesn't love demons. She specifically tells Anders that ALL spirits are dangerous. And a demon is nothing more than a spirit who represents a vice, like desire, sloth, anger or pride, instead of a virtue. And in many definitions, a demon is just a spirit who's intersted in experiencing the mortal world. Nothing more and nothing less.

I know her explanations of demons and spirits. She's still a fool for dealing with them.

All spirits are dangerous, and Merrill takes all the necessary precautions.

This is her one good quaility in dealing with them.

Varric betrays you for the power to get revenge on Bartrand.

Ah. I figured it had something to do with his brother.

Sorry I snipped the crap out of your post. After the one I posted above (even I consider it TL;DR) I wanted to keep it as short and sweet as possible.:innocent:

[dragonflight288]

Hazegurl wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Merrill says in the deep roads that we can learn from demons if we listen to them, but don't do anything they say. Her stance isn't giving Fenriel to Torpor, but to play the demon before the demon plays the person. She discusses tricking demons to get ahead, not giving them what they want.

And everyone including the Keeper agrees that she is playing a dangerous game that would have soon bit her hard. As for Anders, you tell him that you had no intent to give the boy to the demon. Merrill wanted you to give the boy to the demon. That is the difference. I got 5 rivalry with her when I talked to the demon, fought Anders, then told the demon no and killed it. 

And in the end, it was the keeper who made a deal with a demon. Merrill doesn't end up possessed.

and you got rivalry with Merrill because she wanted the information on the state of Fenriel's mind, she never wanted to give him to the demon. She never says it, she never implies it thoughout the entire game. Not once. That's the only scene where Merrill looks like it, and Anders kind of jumps in there. But when taken in context with what she says in the Deep Roads, it becomes apparent that she believes in playing demons before they play you. Still a dangerous game, but she actually shows she's far more careful than Anders, most Circle mages and her own keeper.

I think she knows what she's talking about.

And she doesn't love demons. She specifically tells Anders that ALL spirits are dangerous. And a demon is nothing more than a spirit who represents a vice, like desire, sloth, anger or pride, instead of a virtue. And in many definitions, a demon is just a spirit who's intersted in experiencing the mortal world. Nothing more and nothing less.

I know her explanations of demons and spirits. She's still a fool for dealing with them.

And Merethari deals with them. Anders deals with them, and willingly allowed himself to be possessed by one. So did Merethari. Merrill takes all the necessary precautions, never gets possessed, never abuses her power, and is not corrupted by her power.

She's proof that if a mage is careful, they can live quite happily and not get possessed. And she has a far greater knowledge on how to defend herself from demons than the Chantry does.

All spirits are dangerous, and Merrill takes all the necessary precautions.

This is her one good quaility in dealing with them.

And it puts her leaps and bounds ahead of the Chantry and the Circles who refuse to study demons period...as far as I can tell. She recognizes demons and spirits by their type the moment she sees them, and gives Hawke expert advice on how to defend yourself from them. Anders doesn't do that. It's Justice who tells you that in the Fade. Merrill knows how to recognize the scent of demons in the blood of a person. Anders just attacks to find out if a demon will defend himself.

No one in the Chantry takes her precautions, and no one in the Chantry knows as much about how to defend oneself from the various types of demons as Merrill does.

Varric betrays you for the power to get revenge on Bartrand.

Ah. I figured it had something to do with his brother.

Sorry I snipped the crap out of your post. After the one I posted above (even I consider it TL;DR) I wanted to keep it as short and sweet as possible.:innocent:

No worries. I can jokingly think that what you snipped out just means you agree with me.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 10 mars 2013 - 06:07 .

[TEWR]

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

Yes I can assume more mages are corrupt. If you have one dog with fleas, are you just going to assume the rest don't or check to make sure?[/quote]

Comparing Mages to animals aside, if a dog in a nearby neighborhood has rabies, do you assume your dogs that have never been outside without you around them are rabid as well?

[quote]I don't think the RoA was needed but once done there was nothing much to do except help Mages or Templars. If there was a way Hawke could prevent it. I would have chosen that option. When forced to make a choice.  I picked Templars. At least the hidden blood mages in the circle would be rooted out. Which they were. [/quote]

At the cost of hundreds and hundreds and hundres of Mage men, women, and children.

Taking out a dozen or two blood Mages and killing 2000 regular Mages in the process doesn't make it acceptable. It makes it deplorable. The losses sustained far outweigh the benefits gained. You may have a "clean" Circle, but at the cost of the lives of people not even remotely connected to the crime.

As one could say in DAO, I would rather spare maleficarum then kill innocents. And there are a lot of innocents in that RoA. Far too many to justify the RoA.

[quote]As for the Deciums quest. I don't see how it didn't make sense for a pro-mage
Hawke.Just because you are pro-mage does not mean some stranger knows that or
that all mages will like you and see you as an ally. [/quote]

Well first, I was saying BSC didn't make sense for a pro-mage Hawke. Why it doesn't make sense stems back to Decimus, whose quest was just lazily written.

I'm hesitant to explain myself because you'll probably just go "TL;DR". See, that's the problem with ignoring points. If I explain myself and it's too long, you dismiss my argument and go "Nope you're wrong!" so it's just a wasted effort.

Regardless, I'll do so anyway.

Decimus does not need to know off the bat that Hawke and company will be his allies, but he should at least be willing to ascertain their allegiances. If they are friends of the Templars and Circle system, then his attack would be warranted and justified instead of attacking a group that can have two Elves, three Mages, a Dwarf, or whatever.

Yet he attacks the group anyway. 

Jump forward to Act 3 where I can denounce Meredith and support Orsino more or less and talk to Thrask before BSC where he says he knows I supported Orsino and that he (Thrask) agrees with him, but I have to sit there and accept how the BSC rebellion thinks me "spying for Orsino" -- the man that wants Meredith ousted from the Order -- is somehow a bad thing. And I have to accept how Thrask for some reason thinks I'm supporting Meredith, when I'm not and have never done so.

So the entire Decimus-Grace arc had potential for its intended idea -- Decimus protecting his group, Grace wanting revenge, Grace being a part of a rebellion -- but it fell flat in its execution. Even the devs have admitted that Act 3 was made very railroad-y and that wasn't ideal.

[quote]What I do like about DA2 is that they give you quests that allows you to see the situation from different perspectives. I saw Deciums as a guy driven to protect Grace and the others and lashed out at the first person he saw.[/quote]

Same. With what the game forces me to accept, I see him as a hero. Misguided in his actions to protect his little group and his lover Grace, but a hero nonetheless.

[quote]Not to mention the whole blood magic thing wasn't doing him any good.[/quote]

You have to understand that the Chantry has made a habit of conflating the terms "apostate" and "maleficar" as being one.

When in reality, not all apostates are maleficarum.

Additionally, the definition given to maleficar by the Divine is only partially correct. The word itself is an old Tevinter word, translating to "one who is depraved". In this, people like Alrik and Karras are maleficars for their actions. A Blood Mage that uses the magic for sinister acts -- like say, Danarius -- is also a maleficar.

A Blood Mage like Merrill, however, is not.

[quote] People like them exist. You can help and help and help but they are just nothing but trouble. [/quote]

Eh, I don't think Grace is comparable to those types of people. 

[quote]No, they were driven to depraved acts because that is the choice they made.
They condemn all mages. [/quote]

And Templars like Karras and Alrik chose to abuse their authority. They condemn all Templars.

As I said before, if a man's mind is broken, does he bear the full weight of blame for "choosing" to engage in blood magic? If he is now insane because of abuses committed against him -- beatings, rape, torture, etc. -- does he have the blame cast on him entirely? Does he still retain the ability to determine right from wrong, to choose what he should do? 

I would say no to both. He bears some of the blame. Not all.

[quote]
There are no legitimate reasons to become a blood mage. [/quote]

I suppose fighting the Darkspawn as a blood mage isn't a legitimate reason for Grey Wardens. I suppose using blood magic to amplify Dalish healing magic and cleansing inanimate objects of the Taint they once bore isn't a good reason to become a blood mage.

I suppose turning to blood magic because a Templar has beaten him, raped him, tortured him, and threatened him with Tranquility isn't a good reason.

I suppose Malcolm Hawke's becoming a blood mage temporarily to strengthen the seals binding Corypheus isn't a legitimate reason -- also to ensure that his love, Leandra, was safe from harm.

There are legitimate reasons to become a blood mage, provided one either A) does not abuse the magic itself, as it is just a tool* or ceases to engage in such magic after they have finished with the primary reason they turned to it.

[quote]
I had a blood mage Hawke. Didn't see him with any scars. Apparently blood mages
can stab themselves in the chest with their huge staffs and come out squeaky
clean and perfectly healed. [/quote]

Now this is gameplay. Also, Varric, who has shown himself to exaggerate things. The devs have even said that they reduced certain aspects of the gameplay -- the exploding enemies happening so often, which was a bug -- to bolster the idea of Varric's slight exaggerations during his tale to Cassandra.

However, we have in-game lore -- Alain -- saying that Blood Mages cut their wrists. And that leaves scars, considering it's a pretty damn deep gash to cause such blood to pour out.

And funny, I thought there was "no legitimate reason" for someone to become a Blood Mage?

[quote]Viscount and Elthina were both weak leaders and allowed Meredith to railroad them. that's why
it doesn't surprise me to see the Viscount's head roll down the steps. Reardless
of Meredith's role, he still could have done something. anything. But he and
Elthina are just failures. [/quote]

He has no power and no spine, which is precisely why Meredith picked him as Viscount (History of Kirkwall). I'm not calling him a particularly strong individual -- merely a Viscount that's capable of keeping the peace kinda -- but there was hardly any power for him to actually make a move against the Chantry to try and give the city back authority over itself.

The Templars outnumber the City Guard many times over, so it'd be one-sided if he launched a war against them. And if he were to be seen as moving against the Chantry, the Chantry might consider Kirkwall a "heathen city-state" and declare an Exalted March down upon them.

That's why many nations tend to support the Chantry during Exalted Marches. Fear of being declared "heathens and traitors to the faith" if they don't join in.

The most he could do would be to send a letter to Justinia V or meet with Grand Cleric Elthina about the matter. 


[quote]
That is not the truth. Neutrality is not default support. To even say that is a false definition of the neutral pov.  Neutrality is unbias and impartial.[/quote]

If one is impartial, then they're going to make a decision upon seeing the facts. Elthina had the facts -- Meredith abused her authority for years and years -- but still said "Can't say a thing!", thus allowing Meredith to continue with her abuse of the Mages and citizens. Which presented more evidence. Which Elthina still didn't take to heart.

An endless cycle of violence ultimately stemming from Elthina's inaction and Meredith's abuse of authority.


[quote]Which is what Elthina was doing. Do I agree with her way of handling it? No.

But that is what she chose to do. According to Cullen she is be duty bound to side with the Templars. However, she opts for a neutral stance. Why? IMO, she did so because it was her way of silently protesting the Templars without going against her duty and speaking out against them. She chose to not take a side.[/quote]

Except she's not "duty bound" to side with them on every issue. The lore is very clear here. The Grand Clerics are in control of the Templars for a particular region and it is the Templars who are duty bound to support the Grand Cleric.

You see this in the very opening of Act 3, where the Templars follow Elthina's orders regarding escorting Orsino back to the Gallows gently.

She did not have to claim neutrality. Worse, she believes that if she opposes Meredith that means she's supporting the Mages in a bad sense -- the view that "Mages want total freedom" and so forth. That is a falsehood. Opposing Meredith and her like-minded cronies but appointing someone else to the position of Knight-Commander can be played to say "I still support the Chantry and Circle system, but Meredith abused the tenets of the Order."


[quote]

That is just your opinion. I do not see Orsino as a hero.  I see him as the reason Meredith was paranoid in the first place. Another stain on all mages.[/quote]

Meredith ascended to the position of Knight-Commander unofficially in 9:21 Dragon and officially in 9:23 Dragon, whereas Orsino took his position as First Enchanter at 9:26 Dragon, as far as is known. It's known that immediately upon taking the position of KC, Meredith began instituting rigid anti-Mage policies.

Orsino did not take issue with her actions until 9:29 Dragon, indicating that in the 6-8 years she was Knight-Commander her policies became worse and worse and worse.

[quote]
Meredith was a power hungry you know what and its sad that none of the nobles could stand up to her.[/quote]

Ser Marlein Selbrech and some other nobles stand against her. Two nobles talk of other noble families hiding mages "to protect an ideal". A pro-Templar side quest talks about families -- noble and commoner -- also helping Mages that are deemed friends and family by them, to which the Templars under Ser Mettin summarily executed said families for aiding Mages.

Which as I've said before, is not a crime punishable by death. It is a crime per Chantry law, just not one punishable by death.

[quote

Hawke didn't become Champion of Kirkwall by failing and getting lucky.[/quote]

I'd say four people slaughtering their way through a hundred or so trained Qunari soldiers bolstered by Elven converts all led by the Arishok is pretty damn lucky, especially when the Qunari were the ones that nearly conquered Thedas a few centuries prior.

That war almost bankrupted the Thedosian nations, while the Qunari were unaffected -- and only signed the Llommeryn Accords because of the massive death toll that was accumulating on the part of Rivaini citizens.


[quote]His riches, perhaps, and even then he was the only one who could have made the journey and lead his companions to safety along side Varric, that's called skill, regardless of the luck.[/quote]

I don't think Hawke was really necessary for the journey. Yes, Hawke went farther down in the Deep Roads then anyone believed possible.

That doesn't mean he was actually as vital to the venture as you think.


[quote]And repeating the definition of RoA does not mean it has to come to that, as it doesn't in the actual game. So much for what the RoA means.[/quote]

I still don't see how saving four Mages out of 2000-3000 is particularly something worth celebrating, especially when children are dead because of that RoA.

Children that can't fight back. Were they even given the opportunity to surrender? No, they were not.


[quote]

No mob had a chance to form. It was RoA to fighting Mages or Mages/Templars in the streets and people running for their lives. You expect a mob to form within five minutes of an explosion? That makes zero sense.[/quote]

An hour or two passes before the RoA is committed, as Meredith tells Orsino to gather his people while her people are crossing the harbor. Even prior to that, moving from Lowtown to the Docks would take a while as Kirkwall is a large city.

That's more then enough time for people to come out, see a smoldering ruin, and form a mob. Considering it's nighttime -- midnight, per Anders as that's when he set his bomb to go off -- the explosion might've woken them up.

However, I would think a just as likely assumption for the people to come to upon seeing the Chantry destroyed would be that it's another Qunari assault, given that 3 years ago the Qunari attacked Kirkwall and currently one Qunari was still in the city while there were numerous Tal-Vashoth -- though I'm not certain if the people know they're defectors and aren't simply calling them "Qunari" anyway -- outside of the city.

Regardless, no mob forms despite plenty of time passing.

[quote]

They were investigating.[/quote]

No they weren't. Emeric brought his evidence to Meredith to get an official investigation going -- as before that people thought it wasn't really a major conceren -- and Meredith said it was a matter for the City Guard, despite Hawke having told Emeric of fighting shades, seeing someone flee the scene, and retrieving the sack of remains.

If probed, Emeric says he told Meredith all of that and Meredith still didn't authorize an investigation. When the City Guard were tasked with the duty, they refused as well, despite the fact that Aveline may have been there as well.

[quote]TEWR wrote...

But no, Quentin was allowed to stay in Kirkwall proper as long as he was due to the inaction of the Templars. And this is something Cullen even admits is the Templars' fault. Yes, Orsino kept information on Quentin from the Templars, but even so that information was not necessary for them to do their job. 

It would've helped, certainly, and had the Templars been more along the lines of people whom one could turn to for assistance rather then being people that inspire fear and dread, then Orsino could not be defended for hiding it. As it stands, however, he is justified for keeping that information from Meredith. But either way, it was not necessary for them to do their job. 

In Act 1 alone, the Templars had the following information to go off of:

1) Mharen's trail stopped at the Abandoned Foundry.
2) Both Mharen and Ninette received white lilies from an unknown suitor.
3) A man fled from the foundry upon seeing Hawke, something Hawke can tell Emeric. 
4) Long after the man fled, Demons appeared. Demons that Fenris states were summoned and Hawke will tell Emeric
5) Two other women have been noted to have gone missing.
6) Ninette's ring and a hand possibly belonging to Mharen were found in the foundry.
7) Ninette has been gone a month, longer then she has vanished for in the past. That her ring is found in a foundry filled with demons suggests that she did not just "leave" her husband.
8) Mharen was a Loyalist Mage, old and not prone to going outside of the Circle. So she would not just run away and become an apostate unless there was something at work.

Regardless of whatever doubts a person may have over the nature of their deaths, the fact remains that a Demonic presence warrants the Templars' investigation of the Foundry and locking it down entirely.

But when Emeric presented his evidence to Meredith, she pawned it off to the City Guard. The City Guard then ignored it as well, despite the fact that Aveline may have seen the man who fled and fought the Demons summoned in the foundry. Even when Aveline and Hawke are told by Gascard more about the killer, they cannot even go to the Templars and say "We've found this out".

No, it takes Emeric's death for Aveline and the Templars to even consider taking action. And even then, they don't think to go to the place that Emeric investigated years prior for a lead. 

The Order in Kirkwall and the City Guard are both run by incompetent people.
[/quote]

Part of the post of mine where you went "TL;DR you're doing a bad job of defending your position by making something so long that I'm too lazy to read"


[quote]Perhaps if Orsino had told them of the secret locations he was leaving books for him the Templars could have caught him sooner. But just keep on making excuses for him. He is your hero after all.[/quote]

See above. For that matter, replay the game. Your memory is obviously very poor.
 

[quote]
Yet he seems to place so much faith in Elthina siding with him against Meredith over a room search. Now I'm supposed to believe he was so scared about a possible RoA. Here's a suggestion for Orsino, Don't want mages to look bad? Don't help serial killers because they are mages. [/quote]

When I said "if he had a legitimate say", I meant in the vein of if it would require a First Enchanter's authority to commence with one, since you were saying he was just as bad as Tevinter for keeping information on Quentin hidden.

If he had the legal authority over an RoA's approval, then you'd have a point. Since he doesn't, you don't.

[quote]

I disagree. The fact that they still use Templars says that is a more of a mage-templar effort even if Templars are a part of it. Besides, how big are the mages collective? from what I gather from Origins they seem like a small group, a club more than anything. Mages should not govern themselves completely.[/quote]

Never claimed that.

[quote]TEWR wrote...

Also, not all Mages if left to police themselves would initiate another Imperium. The Mages' Collective, for instance, polices Mages appropriately if they go astray while also maintaining anonymity from the Templars. But they also have a division of Templars in their pockets, indicating that they could call upon them for aid in dealing with threats if they needed to.[/quote]

Here I'm specifically referring to the Mage-Templar effort to work together, where the Mage policing is handled by the Mages themselves.

The Mages' Collective is actually fairly large. Not immense, but large enough that they have ties to the Circle and have increased the positive perception of magic in Ferelden by making problems disappear before the Chantry gets involved (source: Collective's Arming Cowl).

[quote] Can you imagine if politicians in real life were mages? I shudder at the thought.[/quote]

I'd rather not. Mages being involved in politics is something I strongly oppose, despite my view that it's the how and not the who that matters when ruling.

[quote]

This has nothing at all to do with Orsino writing secret letters praising Quentin for his work.[/quote]

Based on the information we gain about Quentin, his MO, Orsino, and so on I'm led to believe Quentin led Orsino to believe he was researching (ethically) how to reverse death after the loss of his wife and it was only when the Harvester ritual was sent to Orsino that he realized how deranged the man was -- something he mentions if Bethany's in the Circle.

[quote]

I would hardly consider bombing the Chantry a flimsy reason for a RoA.[/quote]

Are you a Templar? No. But Cullen is and he takes issue with the call for the RoA, believing it's unnecessary and that the reasoning for it isn't strong enough to justify it.

It's a flimsy reason because it's punishing people in the Circle that are unconnected to a crime committed by a madman apostate Abomination, down to the last child.

[quote]

That's a rather bold and totally bias and unproven statement. [/quote]

Aside from the fact that it's known Meredith has fired more and more moderates, where people like Ser Maarevar Carver are noted to be rare in the Kirkwall Order's presence these days when there were more of them prior to Meredith.

Aside from the fact that it's noted that before Meredith, Mages and Templars got along together and the Kirkwall Circle was a better place.

Aside from the fact that Meredith promotes extremists that actually abuse their authority over Mages.



[quote]

Based only on your opinion and any one who agrees with you.[/quote]

Um no, these are the ideals in which Cullen and Knight-Commander Guylian -- along with Knight-Commander Gregoir -- believe in. A Knight-Captain and two Knight-Commanders hold the same viewpoint on what the Order is truly about.

[quote]  I can easily say that many are driven by the bombing[/quote]

So hatred and anger at what an apostate does causes them to condone the murder of men, women, and children unconnected to the crime?

[quote] others just see it as a way to protect their loved ones,[/quote]

And if their loved ones/family are Mages? 

[quote]some could just want a roof over their heads and not die in the streets[/quote]

Ah, so selfish desires trump true justice and defending the innocent?

[quote]by quitting their jobs, or some may see that siding with mages gets you killed
in the end by them anyway. [/quote]

Very few Mages would kill the Templars that helped them survive an unjustified act of genocide. Some sure -- Libertarians/Resolutionists -- but not a major amount.

[quote]
So you believe people should maryter themselves for the sake of mages? Who are they that they deserve such unshakable loyalty?[/quote]

I believe that in the face of injustice, people should make a stand. Elthina refused to make enough of a stand against injustice and the Templars failed to do so during the RoA. 

And something tells me that you'll try and say "And yet you defend Orsino!" as a counterpoint, but he did stand up to an injustice. He knew Meredith would call down an RoA even if he did go to her with information on Quentin, and so by choosing to keep his connection secret he kept the Mages alive -- thereby taking a stand against injustice.

His information would've helped, but it was not necessary. 

[quote]

I don't condemn them. Hence my opinion that blood mages are a stain on good
mages. You just can't get over that I side with the Templars and you view that
choice as a black and white view on mages. Not all Templars are the evil
monsters you claim, and the ones who are, are just as much of a stain on good
Templars as evil mages are on good mages. [/quote]

Here. Your entire argument was predicated on "I fought blood mages throughout the game that prove the Circle is corrupt beyond repair!"



[quote]

It does matter. He offered it too little too late. [/quote]

It wasn't too late. Hawke, Orsino, and Cullen all believe it's not too late. To say it's too late means that you support Meredith also believing it's too late.

[quote]

Such a fallacious argument. [/quote]

Do you even know the definition of a fallacious argument? You made a claim, thus the burden of proof is on you. I ask you to present said proof, and your response is an improper use of calling something a logical fallacy?

Wow... kudos.

[quote]

Typically around blood mages or mages who were dealing with dark magic.  Who can cut their wrist in desperation and just randomly know advanced blood magic? Someone should have told those mages in the circle who were using their regular powers and got cut down by Templars.  [/quote]

No. Remember the courtyard where you talk to the Tranquil Mage Elsa? Two Pride Demons come through on their own and summon a legion of Shades.

Immediately outside of the room where Orsino and the Mages were gathered Rage Demons appear. That Abominations were summoned is more indicative of Gameplay-Story segregation, per John Epler.

[quote]John Epler wrote...

As for abominations appearing out of the ground, unfortunately, story and gameplay occasionally don't intersect as well as they should, and this would be one of those instances. It was noted, however, and the general consensus is (I believe) that abominations need to be handled like, well, abominations. Even the weak ones should be a believable threat. Able to destroy entire towns? Well, you can chalk some of that up to Chantry hyperbole, but they aren't something to be regarded lightly.[/quote]


[quote]
Yet the Pride demons aren't killing the mages[/quote]

In the Glory Age, Mages summoned a Demon that took down its immediate foes -- the Templars -- and then turned to betray the Mages because it wasn't easily controlled.

It's the same thing here. Even if the Mages are summoning the Demons -- which not all of them are -- the Demons are taking out their immediate foes (Hawke and company) before they will even attempt to forcibly possess the Mage. A forcible possession will take some time, depending on the Mage's strength and willpower.

Why kill a Mage? He's far more useful alive to a Demon.



[quote]

One they most likely summoned.[/quote]

Possible, but again Kirkwall has an extremely thin Veil and Demons come through of their own volition a few times during the Annulment, never mind a few times in other parts of the game.

[quote]

What ticks me off about the pro mage side is the fact that I have to fight
mages period. But it is consistent with the game. Mages have shown that they
will turn on those who help them.[/quote]

You only really fight one Mage, truly. Why the one on the Docks decided to attack Hawke, I dunno. But I can assure you she didn't summon the Demons, as the Pride Demon was already on the Docks before she attacks and the Blood Mage can actually be killed before the Shades are summoned.

The other Mages you fight are under the control of a Desire Demon, so they're not in control of their mental faculties.

[quote]

[quote]Says one possessed liar's opinion. And even if he was telling the truth. How would they know all the skills and techniques in the heat of battle? Maybe something basic and not long lasting. But give me a break that some mage can learn all the formiable skills of a seasoned blood mage in the span of a few hours. [/quote]

Eh, I don't really consider DAII's Blood Mages in the gameplay as having particularly "skilled" techniques. Hawke's blood magic is more what I'd call "skilled". Merrill's too.

The skills the enemies use strike me as more basic abilities. Powerful, no doubt, but basic.

[quote]

You seem to only believe that Templars should be held accountable for their rotten actions.[/quote]

Not so. If say a Mage turns to blood magic because his eggs were burnt, he summons a Demon, and kills many Templars and Mages, I do think he is accountable for his actions.

And should also be laughed at.

For example: I hold Tarohne accountable for her actions, but I do not use her actions to condemn the Circle. 

But cases like Huon are cases where the Templars do bear blame for what happened.

[quote]

He doesn't remove anything. Just one Chantry in one city. In the process he condemns all of Kirkwall to a possible Exalted March in which case the mages are just f*cked. I sometimes wonder if he just figured that the mages would have freedom in death just like his freedom in death from Justice and his obvious chronic depression. [/quote]

He did remove something. He removed the Grand Cleric that controlled everything south of the Minanter River -- Elthina -- and all those that could be deemed his immediate successors, knowing full well that Meredith in her paranoid insanity would call for an RoA since no immediate successor to Elthina could be found.

But yes, he really just wanted the Mages to fight for their lives, even if all that awaited them was death. 

[quote]
If she was such the power mad woman you and I agree on, then it makes me wonder why she just didn't bypass them and approve. She had the power to do so. If I were to speculate on it,  I would say she wasn't that lost to the idol yet and had some sense. [/quote]

If she had, Elthina would have the legal grounds to submit a request to Val Royeaux and the Divine to remove her from the position of Knight-Commander. By unofficially supporting Alrik's schemes, she retains her position and still mass Tranquilizes the Mages.

[quote]

So it's possible that Meredith knew but Orsino did not? Is that your point?[/quote]

No, I said Orsino is a man known to speak up for his charges and he would've certainly known about it. Do not ignore my points.

[quote] The only thing I can
say for that is that the killer did a good job of covering his actual hiding
place, even Hawke did not see the door there until the killer got sloppy.[/quote]

To be fair, Hawke didn't even really investigate the foundry enough to say "This wasn't here before". In Act 1, there were a few barrels on top of it. One would think that if you find Demons in a foundry, accompanied by a man fleeing the foundry before said Demons appear, and a bag of bones then you should at least toss around the crates and barrels around the place.

[quote]It could have been a case of "How many times can we search this one place and come
up with nothing." But that is only a guess.  [/quote]

The thing is that the foundry wasn't investigated at all. Meredith didn't authorize an investigation into the foundry at all, but rather passed it off to Aveline.

And Aveline subsequently ignored it, despite possibly being there in Act 1.

[quote]
Samson wasn't doing his job. Not saying the other Templars (besides Cullen) are. But he also was not doing his job, so he lost it.[/quote]

All you know about Samson is that he was caught delivering letters between Mages. You don't know if he wasn't doing his job in other aspects.

The Templar in Ferelden that made crude and perverted comments around female recruits and Mages was not fired, but rather sent out on a dead-end job to search for apostates out in the Bannorn. Meredith should've done the same thing with Samson, sending him out into the Free Marches wilderness to search for apostates. Or reassigning him to a village like Redcliffe.

Firing him was out of line. As I said before, at the very least he should've received a stern reprimand and possibly a suspension from duty temporarily and at most the aforementioned reassignments.

[quote]
You certainly act like you are by getting far too heated.[/quote]

Trust me, I'm not anywhere near heated. I know my emotional state and I can assure you I'm nowhere near being far too emotional.



[quote]

Let’s see, you do nothing but constantly repeat yourself in
your posts which  makes them extremely [/b]redundant to read and to
reply to.[/quote]

I wouldn't have to repeat myself if you'd actually read my points instead of ignoring them. If you replied to the points I say, then I wouldn't have to keep saying them.

[quote]It was TL;DR. which meant I wasn’t going to ever read it.  You can call me lazy if you like, but your
writing/debate flaws are your own.[/quote]

Presenting information to support a case is hardly a debate flaw. There is no limit to how much I can post, and to limit anyone arbitrarily on how much they can post to make their case diminishes the cases of both sides.

[quote]

It’s not Samson’s job to deliver love letters. As I’ve already had to say before.[/quote]

You're being redundant. 


[quote]I prefer Cullen. I’ve already stated why.[/quote]

He's too much of an oblivious twit -- something DG even admitted, minus the twit part. He's the guy who didn't recognize Mages in front of his eyes during the Act 1 quest.

He had potential in DAII, but it fell a bit flat by making him just sort of... dopey and oblivious. He still has potential for DA3 provided he's given a realistic portrayal of how someone who engaged in an unjustified act of genocide against thousands of innocent men, women, and children would act -- which is anywhere from majorly guilt-ridden to extremely guilt-ridden.

[quote]
 Any innocent mage who surrendered would have
been spared by my Hawke.[/quote]

I'm sure that's of great comfort to the children that were incapable of fighting back and weren't given the chance to surrender.

[quote]

Just when you were about to be unbiased you just couldn’t
handle it. It is game play and nothing more. All the criminals running loose,
all the criminal hideouts Hawke has to find and deal with, even in Hightown.[/quote]

Not so. The Friend of Red Jenny acknowledges the criminal presence and how Hawke is cleaning house with them.

Not gameplay.

[quote]The Guardsmen pretenders, which I remember as the first group you fight in
hightown. I don’t play games to see everyone doing their jobs, the
devs need it that way. But for story purposes, it’s ridiculous to assume that
everyone aren’t doing their jobs based on a handful you run into.
[/quote]

It's up to the devs to make it seem like they're doing their jobs with what we see in-game. For 7 years, I saw no evidence of the Guardsmen or the Templars doing their jobs and sufficient evidence to suggest they were actually ignoring their jobs -- most notably seen in the Quentin arc

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 mars 2013 - 03:58 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Well for one, Meredith did approve it (Tranquil Solution). Just not officially.

Proof?

Comparing Mages to animals aside, if a dog in a nearby neighborhood
has rabies, do you assume your dogs that have never been outside without
you around them are rabid as well?

I dunno. Is super-rabbies something dogs can catch without contact to anyone outside? Are they borh with super-rabies dormant?

At the cost of hundreds and hundreds and hundres of Mage men, women, and children.

Taking out a dozen or two blood Mages and killing 2000 regular Mages in the process doesn't make it acceptable.

There aren't that many mages in Kirkwall.

As one could say in DAO, I would rather spare maleficarum then kill innocents. And there are a lot of innocents in that RoA. Far too many to justify the RoA.

I don't think you know the numbers enough to make that claim.

Wether something is justifiable or not is very subjective. You yourself justify use of blood magic.

***


Bah, at the end of the day, a game like this will have stupid quests and plot holes and inconsistencies aplenty because "gameplay > common sense" mentality.