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[DPSSOC]

IanPolaris wrote...

Oh and Fenris flat out says he is sure there are mages in Tevinter who are good people who struggle against temptation. He simply believes all eventually give in to temptation which is a reasonable stance.

Actually it is the very definition of unreasonable.  Fenris is assuming that all mages regardless of who they are will always fall to temptation.  Replace "African-American" (or rather the racial slur for the same) for mage, and you have a classic bigot.

Doesn't really work though.  Blacks, Orientals, Whites, Arabs, etc. we're all fundamentally the same.  There are differences but there's no grand disparity between the groups.  Mages are fundamentally different from mundanes, there is a massive disparity between the two.  If Blacks or Orientals had the ability to start fires with their minds, I wouldn`t trust them to use that power responsibly or for the greater good either, not because I`m a bigot, but because I acknowledge how strong a temptation that is and how weak we fundamentally are.  Normal people; you, me, Jim in Accounting have a hard enough time using what little power we do possess responsibly and for the greater good, the more power you have, the more you can do, and the harder it is to ignore what you want.
 

IanPolaris wrote...
Fenris IS a bigot when it comes to mages.  This is perfectly understandable given his background, but nothing that remotely resembles reasonable...and Fenris proves over and over again that he can not challenge this bigotry within him (at best he can admit that this particular person "isn't like most mages" without softening his position against mages at all).  This is also a classic sympton of bigtory, i.e. "Joe saved my life so he's ok, unlike all the other [racial slur that Joe happens to belong to]".

-Polaris

Except it is reasonable.  Fenris comes from a nation built on the foundation that mages can`t resist the temptation.  Their culture is a testament to it.  The one Archon who tried to do good was assassinated, the good mages there in present day never gain any power, and day after day Fenris witnessed just what a mage is capable of when all they care about are their own desires.  Fenris acknowledges that power corrupts, and he doesn`t expect anyone to be strong enough to resist that temptation on their own.

[IanPolaris]

DPSSOC wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Oh and Fenris flat out says he is sure there are mages in Tevinter who are good people who struggle against temptation. He simply believes all eventually give in to temptation which is a reasonable stance.

Actually it is the very definition of unreasonable.  Fenris is assuming that all mages regardless of who they are will always fall to temptation.  Replace "African-American" (or rather the racial slur for the same) for mage, and you have a classic bigot.

Doesn't really work though.  Blacks, Orientals, Whites, Arabs, etc. we're all fundamentally the same.  There are differences but there's no grand disparity between the groups.  Mages are fundamentally different from mundanes, there is a massive disparity between the two.  If Blacks or Orientals had the ability to start fires with their minds, I wouldn`t trust them to use that power responsibly or for the greater good either, not because I`m a bigot, but because I acknowledge how strong a temptation that is and how weak we fundamentally are.  Normal people; you, me, Jim in Accounting have a hard enough time using what little power we do possess responsibly and for the greater good, the more power you have, the more you can do, and the harder it is to ignore what you want.

Sure it works.  Yes magic can be dangerous, but so can your bare hands.  In fact I can give you a counter-example right now:  Blaming all Japanese-Americans for Pearl Harbor in WWII.  Point in fact the FBI and the various Attny Generals were right.  There were many active Japanese Spy Rings just before and early in WWII (esp in Hawaii) and they really DID do a lot of damage to our national security.  However, that wasn't an excuse to lock away and treat as a sub-human anyone that happened to be Japanese-American.

So how did the US justifiy it at the time:  They used EXACTLY the same logic you are attempting to use with mages in Dragon Age.  It wasn't valid in real life.  It isn't valid in the game. 

IanPolaris wrote...
Fenris IS a bigot when it comes to mages.  This is perfectly understandable given his background, but nothing that remotely resembles reasonable...and Fenris proves over and over again that he can not challenge this bigotry within him (at best he can admit that this particular person "isn't like most mages" without softening his position against mages at all).  This is also a classic sympton of bigtory, i.e. "Joe saved my life so he's ok, unlike all the other [racial slur that Joe happens to belong to]".

-Polaris

Except it is reasonable.  Fenris comes from a nation built on the foundation that mages can`t resist the temptation.  Their culture is a testament to it.  The one Archon who tried to do good was assassinated, the good mages there in present day never gain any power, and day after day Fenris witnessed just what a mage is capable of when all they care about are their own desires.  Fenris acknowledges that power corrupts, and he doesn`t expect anyone to be strong enough to resist that temptation on their own.

Fenris' feelings are reasonable.   Being a bigot (and acting on it) is not.  There is a difference.

-Polaris

[BlueMagitek]

I would like to point out that my bare hands have never created an army of zombies which destroyed my village.

~_^

[IanPolaris]

BlueMagitek wrote...

I would like to point out that my bare hands have never created an army of zombies which destroyed my village.

~_^

Neither did Conner.  The Desire demon did that. 

The point is that there are lots of dangers in the world.  I have yet to see any evidence that mages are as dangerous as the Chantry wants us to believe OR that the circle system has actually done anything to solve the supposed problem.

-Polaris

[BlueMagitek]

IanPolaris wrote...

Neither did Conner.  The Desire demon did that. 

The point is that there are lots of dangers in the world.  I have yet to see any evidence that mages are as dangerous as the Chantry wants us to believe OR that the circle system has actually done anything to solve the supposed problem.

-Polaris

Through Conner, yes.  We can also argue that my fists started to channel Pai Mei and it's entirely his fault that everyone's heart exploded, but that's neither here nor there.

It's quite dishonest to compare fists, swords, flails, etc. in a singular sense to what a single mage can do if something goes wrong.  Yes, it's technically correct that both can cause damage, but you're completely invalidating the scale, and that is something that matters. 

Uh, you have played DA:O, right?  With the entire zombies eating an entire town?  Or how Abominations are capable of slaughtering villages (though just rush at us suicidally for some reason)? 

Also the entire "use an ocean of blood and mountains of lyrium" thing is a bit dangerous and, if nothing else, contributed to a huge loss of life during the first Blight (best case, worst case created the darkspawn).

[dragonflight288]

Uh, you have played DA:O, right? With the entire zombies eating an entire town? Or how Abominations are capable of slaughtering villages (though just rush at us suicidally for some reason)?

Yup. An army of the dead summoned by a demon which possessed a boy terrified of losing his father, this boy not getting a proper education because his mother was terrified of losing her son (and heir) to the Circle. She was terrified of never seeing him again and he would forever be marked as a mage, and viewed as sub-human by the Chantry she devoutly follows and only barely tolerated despite his lineage.

Yup, certainly played that part.

Also the entire "use an ocean of blood and mountains of lyrium" thing is a bit dangerous and, if nothing else, contributed to a huge loss of life during the first Blight (best case, worst case created the darkspawn).

Uh....we know lyrium can be dangerous to non-dwarves, and even then the dwarves can be affected if they breathe it in or get it in the blood.

If you're referring to the magisters....the logistics just don't work out. The magisters's simply could not have possibly caused the blight at all. They became awakened darkspawn, but they can't hear the call of the old gods. The Architect and the Mother prove that awakened darkspawn can't sense the Old Gods or hear the song. There's a lot more evidence that the darkspawn were created by the dwarves of the Primeval Thaigs than anything Tevinter did.

You can't take the Chantry's word for golden truth. They were only one of many Andrastian Cults, and they warred and conquered their way to prominence alongside Orlais, until they were the only known Andrastian Cult left.

[BlueMagitek]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Yup. An army of the dead summoned by a demon which possessed a boy terrified of losing his father, this boy not getting a proper education because his mother was terrified of losing her son (and heir) to the Circle. She was terrified of never seeing him again and he would forever be marked as a mage, and viewed as sub-human by the Chantry she devoutly follows and only barely tolerated despite his lineage.

Yup, certainly played that part.

Uh....we know lyrium can be dangerous to non-dwarves, and even then the dwarves can be affected if they breathe it in or get it in the blood.

If you're referring to the magisters....the logistics just don't work out. The magisters's simply could not have possibly caused the blight at all. They became awakened darkspawn, but they can't hear the call of the old gods. The Architect and the Mother prove that awakened darkspawn can't sense the Old Gods or hear the song. There's a lot more evidence that the darkspawn were created by the dwarves of the Primeval Thaigs than anything Tevinter did.

You can't take the Chantry's word for golden truth. They were only one of many Andrastian Cults, and they warred and conquered their way to prominence alongside Orlais, until they were the only known Andrastian Cult left.

You mean a scenario that is quite likely to happen very often in the world of Dragon Age where bandits ar everywhere, rapists form the backbone of the Orlesian army, you are branded a criminal for being born to the wrong caste and it is entirely possible that half of your nation's forces will be fed to darkspawn at the whim of a glory seeking king?

Heck, Connor had more of an education that most boys, as a noble.  He would have gotten that education at the Chantry, but demons == bad &  dealing with demons == worse is kind of a standard thing regardless of who you are.  And it isn't so much sub-human as terrifying human.  They're sub-Qunari to Qunari though. :/

What are you even talking about?

I said "at worst they created the darkspawn".  But please, focus entirely on that part of it.

[thats1evildude]

The Architect actually did hear the call of the Old Gods, according to the Calling. He was just smart enough to ignore it. I don't know definitively if he ever went through his own ritual.

Anyways, even if they didn't hear the song, the legend says the magisters sought out Dumat for answers, being understandably confused as to a) why they were now monsters and not ruling the world. Coming into contact with him turned Dumat into the Archdemon.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 25 février 2013 - 05:01 .

[dragonflight288]

thats1evildude wrote...

The Architect actually did hear the call of the Old Gods, according to the Calling. He was just smart enough to ignore it. I don't know definitively if he ever went through his own ritual.

Anyways, even if they didn't hear the song, the legend says the magisters sought out Dumat for answers, being understandably confused as to a) why they were now monsters and not ruling the world. Coming into contact with him turned Dumat into the Archdemon.

But the amount of time it would take them to raise an army of darkspawn to start a blight and the time it took for the blight to start doesn't add up. Period.

And even if the Architect could hear the song, it's quite obvious the Mother couldn't.

[thats1evildude]

dragonflight288 wrote...

But the amount of time it would take them to raise an army of darkspawn to start a blight and the time it took for the blight to start doesn't add up. Period.

How much time actually passed between the Magisters entering the Black City and the rise of Dumat as the first Archdemon? 

The magisters would just need one female captive capable of surviving the transformation into a broodmother to make a small army. A single broodmother can birth hundreds of darkspawn, and given that the transformation occurs within days, it wouldn't take long to create a fairly sizeable force. From there on, they just need to capture more women and bolster their numbers with ghouls.

As I understand it, the darkspawn didn't make their presence really known until their numbers had grown so large that they overwhelmed the dwarven thaigs.

From this codex:

Orzammar History, Part One...

The Memories hold no explanations for the coming of the darkspawn, only questions. At first, they were rumors, noises in the Deep Roads, a lost traveler here and there. The Warrior Caste sent men to patrol the road, and thought the matter settled. We did not know that while we searched for them, they were engaged in a search of their own.

dragonflight288 wrote...

And even if the Architect could hear the song, it's quite obvious the Mother couldn't.

Because she had been put through the Architect's Awakening ritual.

That doesn't mean the magisters couldn't hear the song of the Old Gods. Only Awakened darkspawn couldn't.

Or maybe they didn't hear the song and they just sought out Dumat for their own ends, as I indicated above. The distinction no longer matters; what is important is that the Blight began with the Magisters.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 25 février 2013 - 06:03 .

[TEWR]

A single broodmother can birth hundreds of darkspawn, and given that the transformation occurs within days

And a broodmother births about 20-50 Darkspawn in each brood session in a toddler-esque stage, most of which fight amongst each other for dominance (World of Thedas). It also requires not just surviving the Taint, but a certain process the Darkspawn employ. Rape and forced cannibalism, it seems.

And nothing points to the Awakened Darkspawn Magisters knowing that certain thing.

not ruling the world. Coming into contact with him turned Dumat into the Archdemon.

Then why does Corypheus act like he hasn't spoken to his best bro Dumat since the little trek off the Ethereal Highway when he believes he's still in the timeframe where he actually went through with it?

He believes he's in Tevinter. He believes he's in the same era as when he went to the city. And he calls out to Dumat to answer him.

If the Magisters found Dumat, Corypheus would know Dumat's gone -- whether permanently or not is still in contention -- but he acts like he hasn't seen Dumat since then.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 février 2013 - 06:50 .

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And a broodmother births about 20-50 Darkspawn in each brood session in a toddler-esque stage, most of which fight amongst each other for dominance (World of Thedas). It also requires not just surviving the Taint, but a certain process the Darkspawn employ. Rape and forced cannibalism, it seems.

Fascinating stuff, but I'm not sure if you're arguing or agreeing with me.

I'm aware that the process of making a broodmother included possible rape and forced cannibalism. Like I said, they need one female captive of surving that process to breed a small army. And then they just need to find more.

That the darkspawn fight each other for dominance is not surprising. That said, I'm certain that more than a few darkspawn survive those difficult toddler years. Or months. Or weeks. I have no idea how long it takes a darkspawn to reach maturity.

It would be a pretty brutally inefficient reproductive process otherwise.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And nothing points to the Awakened Darkspawn Magisters knowing that certain thing.

Sure, but it could be an innate trait that comes with the whole darkspawn package. As sea turtles know instinctively how to move towards the ocean, the darkspawn know instinctively how to make broodmothers. We are talking about a magical taint that turns men into monsters here; it's not out of the realm of possibility.

Why are you referring to them as Awakened? As I said, there's no indication they ever went through a ritual similar to the one the Architect cooked up.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Then why does Corypheus act like he hasn't spoken to his best bro Dumat since the little trek off the Ethereal Highway when he believes he's still in the timeframe where he actually went through with it?

Corypheus' dialogue indicates that he doesn't even realize he's a darkspawn. He seems to think he's still a Magister Lord, and can't understand why the Deep Roads are so empty.

His behaviour doesn't make any sense unless the Wardens imprisoned him the moment he returned from the Fade – which is impossible, considering the Wardens weren't founded until well into the First Blight. And Janeka herself confirms that Corypheus wasn't captured until AFTER the Blight.

The most likely reason is that he's pretty disoriented when he wakes up. After all, he's been in a magical sleep that lasted centuries. I can't even guess what that's done to his mind.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 25 février 2013 - 07:35 .

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

Fascinating stuff, but I'm not sure if you're arguing or agreeing with me.

Arguing.

I'm aware that the process of making a broodmother included possible rape and forced cannibalism. Like I said, they need one female captive of surving that process to breed a small army. And then they just need to find more.

That the darkspawn fight each other for dominance is not surprising. That said, I'm certain that more than a few darkspawn survive those difficult toddler years. Or months. Or weeks. I have no idea how long it takes a darkspawn to reach maturity.

It would be a pretty brutally inefficient reproductive process otherwise.

There's more evidence to suggest the PT was the source of the Darkspawn emergence in Thedas then to say the Magisters were the first Darkspawn.

The Darkspawn numbers and what we can deduce just don't work to logically back up when the Magisters invaded and when the First Blight began. The Chantry claims that in 800 TE the Magisters invaded the "Golden" City and then promptly fled underground, to which they found the Archdemon.

They evaded an entire Empire that spanned the known world and noticed when a single thaig was acting strangely? An Empire that was in a trade agreement with the Imperium? And managed to build up enough Darkspawn in a few years to present a serious threat to the Dwarves and find Dumat?

No, it doesn't work.

And when there are no Blights, Alphas will take command of other Darkspawn and fight other groups commanded by Alphas, once again thinning the numbers. 

Sure, but it could be an innate trait that comes with the whole darkspawn package. As sea turtles know instinctively how to move towards the ocean, the darkspawn know instinctively how to make broodmothers.

Darkspawn aren't sea turtles though. Sea turtles can't become sapient, capable of human speech, and so on.

Why are you referring to them as Awakened? As I said, there's no indication they ever went through a ritual similar to the one the Architect cooked up.

I'm sure that if Corypheus could hear the Call of the Old Gods, he'd hear the other two Gods singing and try speaking to them when Dumat wasn't answering. Or he'd assume those two gods were Dumat.

But he can't. It's even conjectured by Wardens that he isn't even a Darkspawn or a Ghoul, but something else entirely because of what happened to him.

Corypheus' dialogue indicates that he doesn't even realize he's a darkspawn. He seems to think he's still a Magister Lord, and can't understand why the Deep Roads are so empty.

His behaviour doesn't make any sense unless the Wardens imprisoned him the moment he returned from the Fade – which is impossible, considering the Wardens weren't founded until well into the First Blight. And Janeka herself confirms that Corypheus wasn't captured until AFTER the Blight.

The most likely reason is that he's pretty disoriented when he wakes up. After all, he's been in a magical sleep that lasted centuries. I can't even guess what that's done to his mind.

Just because he still sees himself as human -- which would actually refute your "instinctual knowledge of how to make a broodmother for even intelligent Darkspawn" theory -- does not mean in any way that his knowledge of the time he was last awake at is diminished at all. He's able to recall in great detail the nature of his journey to the City and why he went there. He's able to recall that the Dwarves apparently had their own slaves, and wonders if Hawke and friends are slaves themselves to the Dwarves.

The fact that he can't understand why the Deep Roads would be empty actually backs up my claim. If he was exploring the Deep Roads, he would've seen the Dwarves. He would've seen the Darkspawn fighting them and understand that. This all points to one thing: He never went into the Deep Roads to find Corypheus, but did eventually wind up there after the First Blight. 

The First Blight ran for 200 years and resulted in four Great Thaigs isolating themselves because of the Darkspawn. He would know why their roads were empty, if he had ever been in the Deep Roads prior to the First Blight's end.

Furthermore, if he was in the Deep Roads creating Darkspawn he wouldn't have them attack the Dwarves who were Tevinter's allies. As he still sees himself as a Tevinter Magister, that'd be a declaration of war to him if people under his "authority" attacked the Dwarves and it could be linked back to Tevinter. He'd be able to command them to not attack the Dwarves, and they'd obey.

And he actually does know that he was asleep. Perplexed by the speech Hawke and company employ, it causes him to ask "How long have I slumbered?". 

Side note: It's all but been officially confirmed by devs that Corypheus pulled an Old God body swap. Indeed, we the players know this to be the case. However, everyone seemed to use his smirk in the face of death and X Warden's staggering as evidence -- plus a change in speech for Larius, though it never struck me as different from how Larius spoke prior.

Though it's suggestive, it was far from conclusive for some people.

One more evidence to confirm it. Corypheus' eyes glow as he smirks. As far as I know, no one's ever mentioned that on the BSN. Truly, I hadn't noticed it until I watched a Corypheus Youtube video just now. 

I like Corypheus. I hope that if he returns -- as seems likely -- that he'll swap to a generic Hurlock Emissary and morph it into his old appearance. Or go back to his corpse after Hawke and company left and bring it back.

I like his VA.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 février 2013 - 08:49 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

There's nothing really bigoted about distrusting mages. And if there is, I'd call it a good kind of bigotry.

Normal people don't have demons knocking on the doors of their minds. Normal people can't raise an army of dead or suck your life dry. Normal people aren't nearly as tempted.

People with overwhelming power that never abuse it and never give in to temptation - that only exists in fiction.

[Knight of Dane]

No, not really.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Just because he still sees himself as human -- which would actually refute your "instinctual knowledge of how to make a broodmother for even intelligent Darkspawn" theory -- does not mean in any way that his knowledge of the time he was last awake at is diminished at all. He's able to recall in great detail the nature of his journey to the City and why he went there. He's able to recall that the Dwarves apparently had their own slaves, and wonders if Hawke and friends are slaves themselves to the Dwarves.

The fact that he can't understand why the Deep Roads would be empty actually backs up my claim. If he was exploring the Deep Roads, he would've seen the Dwarves. He would've seen the Darkspawn fighting them and understand that. This all points to one thing: He never went into the Deep Roads to find Corypheus, but did eventually wind up there after the First Blight. 

The First Blight ran for 200 years and resulted in four Great Thaigs isolating themselves because of the Darkspawn. He would know why their roads were empty, if he had ever been in the Deep Roads prior to the First Blight's end.

Even if Corypheus never went underground, it's impossible for anyone who was alive during the First Blight to not know where the Darkspawn were coming from. Corypheus was found controlling darksapwn 12 years after Dumat's death which is another news that would have spread quickly. It's literally impossible for him to be as oblivious as he is in "Legacy"
It makes far more sense to believe that the spell holding him plus a thousand years in a coma did a number on his mind.
The Architect is another likely Magister whose memories are gone.

[LobselVith8]

Hazegurl wrote...

I just finished my first playthrough of DA2. It's not as good as the frist but i got into it after a while. I hear a lot of people sided with the mages at the end but I picked the Templars. Namely because there was just too many mages resorting to blood magic to get their way or allowing themselves to be possessed by demons.

I don't see why people vilify blood magic. Duncan notes that some Grey Warden mages use blood magic to give them an edge against the darkspawn. The Warden from the Circle can use blood magic for the same reason. We see Finn use a harmless blood magic ritual to locate the Eluvian in the Dragonbone Wastes. The developers have said that the phylacteries and the Joining can are forms of blood magic.

Templars have the power to nulify ordinary magic - meaning they can shut down a mage's powers, leaving the mage defenseless. Imagine rapists like Kerras and Alrik having the power to shut down your powers. Imagine that you're also from a Circle of Magi where your people are being made tranquil illegally, and none of the other templars are doing anything to stop it. It's a frightening thought. It's also noted that some apostates turn to blood magic to defend themselves against the templars (who threaten their humanity and their lives), and Hawke can turn to blood magic for the same reason.

Like the lore reads: "The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn't limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it's tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons."

Hazegurl wrote...

At first i was mostly pro mage with bits of pro Templar spinkled in there but honestly, Anders contributed to a large part in why i sided with the Templars. Not my only reason but a big chuck of it. I used him as my healer so i took him nearly everywhere with me and all he did was constantly b*tch about the plight of mages.

Mages were being beaten and whipped in the Circle of Kirkwall. Some mages, like Anders' first love Karl, were being made tranquil illegally, and nobody was doing anything about it. If my people were being tortured by the military arm of the nation's religion and having their humanity taken from them, I would complain, too.

Hazegurl wrote...

A mage turns to blood magic and kill a host of people then it was "See what they make us do?!?!" well no I don't! Fenris was right when he asked when are mages going to hold themselves accountable for their crimes. While I thought the Templars were too harsh, i found many more of them to be more sympathetic than the mages.  

I also remember Decimus claiming that my apostate Hawke and Merrill were templars. I remember Grace trying to exact revenge because my apostate Hawke helped her escape the templars. I don't see how insane and stupid mages are much of an argument against mages in general.

Hazegurl wrote...

I even turned down Anders request to let him sneak into the chantry cause it became apparent that he was a lying sack of crap when I started to question him.  I also enjoyed killing him for his crime and I'm glad there was no mention of him in the epilouge. People remember the champion not his sorry ****.

Mages see your Champion as a symbol of oppression. Yeah, I've seen the pro-templar ending. I also know that people remember Anders years later, based on Asunder.

Hazegurl wrote...

Anyway, Although I sided with the Templars I still spared the mages that begged for their lives and pretty much knew Merideth was going to betray me cause she was just far too insane to be trusted. So glad I was able to kill her too.

You spared three mages, who will likely be made tranquil, and helped Meredith murder hundreds of men, women, and children because you encountered a few criminals outside the Circle of Kirkwall who abused their powers.

Hazegurl wrote...

So, I know this topic is late but did anyone else side with the Templars and felt it was a good choice instead of just for the trophy or to be "evil"?

I can never see an act of genocide as a good choice.

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Darkspawn numbers and what we can deduce just don't work to logically back up when the Magisters invaded and when the First Blight began. The Chantry claims that in 800 TE the Magisters invaded the "Golden" City and then promptly fled underground, to which they found the Archdemon.

They evaded an entire Empire that spanned the known world and noticed when a single thaig was acting strangely? An Empire that was in a trade agreement with the Imperium? And managed to build up enough Darkspawn in a few years to present a serious threat to the Dwarves and find Dumat?

Sure they could. Unlike the dwarves, the darkspawn are capable of building up their numbers quickly and are a totally unified force (until Awakening, that is). The dwarven empire was in turmoil when the darkspawn attacked.

From the Codex on House Aeducan, Shield of Orzammar:

"When the Blight began, it caught Orzammar in the midst of a vicious inter-house war. Most of the Warrior Caste was caught up in the feuding, for as word of attacks poured in, each great house demanded that the army be sent to defend their thaig, and no house would agree to sacrifice their own holdings for the safety of any others. The Assembly was so utterly tied up with the infighting that the darkspawn spread, unchecked, to the gates of Orzammar herself."

That's why Aeducan was elevated to Paragon: he realized that the dwarves' in-fighting, as well as their insistence on trying to engage the darkspawn on mutliple fronts, wasn't working.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Darkspawn aren't sea turtles though. Sea turtles can't become sapient, capable of human speech, and so on.

That's not really disproving my point, though I'll note humans also possess innate traits. Babies know how to breastfeed without being taught, for instance.

As I said before, darkspawn are created by a hideous magical corruption that kills or corrupts everything it touches. Everything about them can be explained by "It's magic".

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'm sure that if Corypheus could hear the Call of the Old Gods, he'd hear the other two Gods singing and try speaking to them when Dumat wasn't answering. Or he'd assume those two gods were Dumat.

As I said before, he's pretty disoriented.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But he can't. It's even conjectured by Wardens that he isn't even a Darkspawn or a Ghoul, but something else entirely because of what happened to him.

Sure, he's pretty unique by virtue of being one of the first darkspawn.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Just because he still sees himself as human -- which would actually refute your "instinctual knowledge of how to make a broodmother for even intelligent Darkspawn" theory -- does not mean in any way that his knowledge of the time he was last awake at is diminished at all.

How so? It's not like he had any time to make any.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

He's able to recall in great detail the nature of his journey to the City and why he went there. He's able to recall that the Dwarves apparently had their own slaves, and wonders if Hawke and friends are slaves themselves to the Dwarves.

Sure, he remembers his life up to a point. Not really that uncommon from RL Alzheimers patients, really. Most of them hold memories from their earlier days.

As MisterJB said, Corypheus should remember the events of the First Blight, as he was captured after it was over. But that magical slumber has done a number on his mind.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 25 février 2013 - 07:02 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

So, I know this topic is late but did anyone else side with the Templars and felt it was a good choice instead of just for the trophy or to be "evil"?

I can never see an act of genocide as a good choice.

Depends.
"Good" as in morally flawless or "good" as in reasonably/logicly the most correct choice?

Hypothetical: Let's assume Meredith was right and the Circle was really corrupted and yet you do nothing and side with mages. Mages go insane, blood magic and abominations run rampant even worse than before - Kirkwalls streets run red with blood. Total civilian death toll far worse than if siding with tempalrs and wiping out the mages.

What is the "right choice?
Do I choose 100 mages or thousands of civilians?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Another thing to note - most arguments are "templars are cruel and evil and force mages to do whatever they do"


Interesting to note that Bethany, who was a free mage her whole life, doesnt' consider the cirlce bad.
In fact, when talking about it at the end of the game, her reason for siding with the mages isn't "we are terribly opressed and tortured/abused", but rather "no one should be locked up".
All of that abuse is a statistical outlier, not the norm.
But mage supporters keep showing it in everyones faces, like it's some horrible anomaly in Thedas.

Templars have the power to nulify ordinary magic - meaning they can shut down a mage's powers, leaving the mage defenseless. Imagine rapists like Kerras and Alrik having the power to shut down your powers.

As opposed to normal people vs. normal rapists?

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

So, I know this topic is late but did anyone else side with the Templars and felt it was a good choice instead of just for the trophy or to be "evil"?

I can never see an act of genocide as a good choice.

Depends.
"Good" as in morally flawless or "good" as in reasonably/logicly the most correct choice?

Hypothetical: Let's assume Meredith was right and the Circle was really corrupted and yet you do nothing and side with mages. Mages go insane, blood magic and abominations run rampant even worse than before - Kirkwalls streets run red with blood. Total civilian death toll far worse than if siding with tempalrs and wiping out the mages.

What is the "right choice?
Do I choose 100 mages or thousands of civilians?

Assumption is the mother of all ****#ups.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 25 février 2013 - 08:43 .

[thats1evildude]

DKJaigen wrote...

Assumption is the mother of all ****#ups.

Colloquiliasms do not constitute arguments. Lotion's point is valid: from a neutral outside observer's perspective, Kirkwall's Circle does seem hopelessly corrupt. Blood mages and demon cults are running rampant in the city. Though Meredith is insane, she was right about one thing: annulment was necessary even before Anders' destruction of the Chantry.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 25 février 2013 - 08:58 .

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

So, I know this topic is late but did anyone else side with the Templars and felt it was a good choice instead of just for the trophy or to be "evil"?

I can never see an act of genocide as a good choice. 

Depends.
"Good" as in morally flawless or "good" as in reasonably/logicly the most correct choice?

Hypothetical: Let's assume Meredith was right and the Circle was really corrupted and yet you do nothing and side with mages.

That's not Meredith's argument. The Knight-Commander makes the same argument over and over again when it comes to the Right of Annulment she has invoked: she wants to appease a hypothetical mob. That's even what she says when she attempts to persuade Hawke to side with her. Despite Anders' confession, she wants to kill every mage in Kirkwall, and she proceeds to handwave Anders' existance afterward.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mages go insane, blood magic and abominations run rampant even worse than before - Kirkwalls streets run red with blood. Total civilian death toll far worse than if siding with tempalrs and wiping out the mages.

What is the "right choice?
Do I choose 100 mages or thousands of civilians? 

Civilians might die because hundreds of mages are going to be fighting for their lives because Meredith is trying to kill them all for something they didn't do. Do I condemn hundreds of men, women, and children to execution to help a lunatic appease a hypothetical mob, or do I protect innocent people from someone who is going to kill them all because of something Alone alone did?

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
That's not Meredith's argument. The Knight-Commander makes the same argument over and over again when it comes to the Right of Annulment she has invoked: she wants to appease a hypothetical mob. That's even what she says when she attempts to persuade Hawke to side with her. Despite Anders' confession, she wants to kill every mage in Kirkwall, and she proceeds to handwave Anders' existance afterward.

Again, so what?
The player is not Meredith.

Her reasons are not relevant. The question is why would a player go with either option. What are the players reasons?

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Mages go insane, blood magic and abominations run rampant even worse than before - Kirkwalls streets run red with blood. Total civilian death toll far worse than if siding with tempalrs and wiping out the mages.

What is the "right choice?
Do I choose 100 mages or thousands of civilians? 

Civilians might die because hundreds of mages are going to be fighting for their lives because Meredith is trying to kill them all for something they didn't do. Do I condemn hundreds of men, women, and children to execution to help a lunatic appease a hypothetical mob, or do I protect innocent people from someone who is going to kill them all because of something Alone alone did?

Factored in. If something like Broken Circle would happen in Kikwall...the death toll would be catastrophic.
The city guard doesn't seem very competent - they can't deal with 100 quanari, what do you think would happen in 100 abominations and blood mages go on a rampage?

And - as others have noted - the request for Annulment have been made BEFORE the Anders incident.

Innocence is murky concept when the innocent you want to protect are a tickign bomb that will kill many more even more innocents.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 25 février 2013 - 09:25 .

[DKJaigen]

thats1evildude wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Assumption is the mother of all ****#ups.

Colloquiliasms do not constitute arguments. Lotion's point is valid: from a neutral outside observer's perspective, Kirkwall's Circle does seem hopelessly corrupt. Blood mages and demon cults are running rampant in the city. Though Meredith is insane, she was right about one thing: annulment was necessary even before Anders' destruction of the Chantry.

valid points is based on facts. i dont see facts