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[thats1evildude]

Fact: there is a demon cult operating in Lowtown and a horde of abominations on the loose in Darktown during Act 3.

Fact: there is a gang of rogue blood mages attempting to take over Hightown in Act 3.

Fact: a group of radical mage terrorists named the Resolutionists are operating in Kirkwall and attempt to assassinate the Chantry's representative.

Fact: Huon, Alain, Grace and Orsino — all mages of Kirkwall's circle — have turned to blood magic, as have many other unnamed Circle mages.

Fact: the Gallows and most of Lowtown is infested with abominations and demons during The Last Straw.

Kirkwall's Circle has become hopelessly corrupt and the city is on the brink of disaster. Annulment is the only option.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 25 février 2013 - 10:58 .

[IanPolaris]

thats1evildude wrote...

Fact: there is a demon cult operating in Lowtown and a horde of abominations on the loose in Darktown during Act 3.

Fact: there is a gang of rogue blood mages attempting to take over Hightown in Act 3.

Both of these happen AFTER Meredith starts cracking down and becomes Viscountess in all but name.  There is no evidence that either of these are in any way connected to the circle.

Fact: a group of radical mage terrorists named the Resolutionists are operating in Kirkwall and attempt to assassinate the Chantry's representative.

Which again doesn't show any connection to Kirkwall's circle.

Fact: Huon, Alain, Grace and Orsino — all mages of Kirkwall's circle — have turned to blood magic, as have many other unnamed Circle mages.

Orsino uses bloodmagic once at the very end when his life is in immediate peril.  Alain and Grace came from the Starkhaven Circle not the Kirkwall circle, and Huon was treated like an animal.  Other than these, how many circle mages do you see using bloodmagic at any time?  I am guessing that number is zero.

Fact: the Gallows and most of Lowtown is infested with abominations and demons during The Last Straw.

Created when Meredith declares war on the entire circle for a crime THEY DID NOT COMMIT.  When you push a person into a corner, they will do anything to survive.  Even the Templars admit this.

Kirkwall's Circle has become hopelessly corrupt and the city is on the brink of disaster. Annulment is the only option.

Non-Sequitor.  You are assuming facts not in evidence.  Nothing you have presented comes close to proving this at all.

-Polaris

[thats1evildude]

IanPolaris wrote...

Both of these happen AFTER Meredith starts cracking down and becomes Viscountess in all but name.  There is no evidence that either of these are in any way connected to the circle.

They don't exist in a bottle. Where do you think those blood mages were coming from? The demons infesting parts of Kirkwall? They originated with the Circle. It's all fruit from the same poisoned tree.

IanPolaris wrote...

Which again doesn't show any connection to Kirkwall's circle.

But they were taking advantage of the chaos resulting from the insurbordination of the Circle and Grand Enchanter Orsino. They'd come to Kirkwall specifically to exacerbate the situtation and make things worse.

IanPolaris wrote...

Orsino uses bloodmagic once at the very end when his life is in immediate peril. Alain and Grace came from the Starkhaven Circle not the Kirkwall circle, and Huon was treated like an animal.

Orsino uses his magic for revenge, pure and simple. He either knew or did not care that he would die, and chose to turn into an abomination that could have slaughtered half the city. And he knowingly supported Quentin despite the horrifying nature of his research.

Did Grace actually fear Meredith? She chose to use her powers to attack Hawke and to kill Thrask, her friend. Huon escaped the Circle and chose to use his freedom to murder his poor wife, who had never done him any wrong. Mistreatment does not justify murder.

IanPolaris wrote...

Other than these, how many circle mages do you see using bloodmagic at any time?  I am guessing that number is zero.

Plenty, especially if you side with the templars. The Gallows is rife with blood mages.

IanPolaris wrote...

Created when Meredith declares war on the entire circle for a crime THEY DID NOT COMMIT.

Nonetheless, they choose to give themselves over to demons and commit the most grave depravities. As all mages will, given the slightest of excuses.

Meredith saw rightly that the Circle was corrupted beyond redemption well before Anders destroyed the Chantry. Had Elthina allowed her to act sooner, perhaps her death could have been avoided. A pity.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 26 février 2013 - 12:41 .

[IanPolaris]

Again you blame the victim for defending him or herself. Nice.

-Polaris

[Hazegurl]

DKJaigen wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

I just finished my first playthrough of DA2. It's not as good as the frist but i got into it after a while. I hear a lot of people sided with the mages at the end but I picked the Templars. Namely because there was just too many mages resorting to blood magic to get their way or allowing themselves to be possessed by demons.  At first i was mostly pro mage with bits of pro Templar spinkled in there but honestly, Anders contributed to a large part in why i sided with the Templars. Not my only reason but a big chuck of it. I used him as my healer so i took him nearly everywhere with me and all he did was constantly b*tch about the plight of mages. A mage turns to blood magic and kill a host of people then it was "See what they make us do?!?!" well no I don't! Fenris was right when he asked when are mages going to hold themselves accountable for their crimes. While I thought the Templars were too harsh, i found many more of them to be more sympathetic than the mages.  I even turned down Anders request to let him sneak into the chantry cause it became apparent that he was a lying sack of crap when I started to question him.  I also enjoyed killing him for his crime and I'm glad there was no mention of him in the epilouge. People remember the champion not his sorry ****.

Anyway, Although I sided with the Templars I still spared the mages that begged for their lives and pretty much knew Merideth was going to betray me cause she was just far too insane to be trusted. So glad I was able to kill her too.

So, I know this topic is late but did anyone else side with the Templars and felt it was a good choice instead of just for the trophy or to be "evil"?

You just condemned hundreds innocent man ,women and childeren to death because out of spite and anger. With no rationality or pragmatism involved. I may sound very harsh but we use the police and judges so that people like you are never allowed to judge over others. If we did the chaos suffering and anarchy would be tremendous.

Their are valid reasons to support the templars but this is not one of them. In fact i find more then a bit repulsive.

Okay fine, let me go over every reason why I sided with the Templars.

-Blood mages were all over Kirkwall before Act 3.
-The elf mage leader was harboring them. I had no real proof until he asked for help about them and their meetings
**We find out later that he harbored them, including a murderer. The same man who murders Hawke's mom. This confirmed to me that I was right.
-Anders wants total freedom for all mages. Meaning that they should be allowed to run around totally unchecked when mages have proven that they are far more dangerous as criminals et al than the average man.
-Anders allowed a demon into his body. Pretty much becoming the very reason why Templars like Meredieth exist.
-If you talk to the mages who escaped and hid in the cave, the first thing that mage woman asks is for you to murder Thrask who has done nothing but try to help them.
-She later kidnaps Bethany and murders Thrask herself.
-Blood mages have turned on the people they love, killing them for power.

Anders being a sneaky b*tch and asking me to sneak him into the Chantry was too shady for me to say yes to and when probed he starts talking about how you shouldn't mind people dying for the freedom of mages. Um, no. I do mind.

Then Anders turns to terrorism and I'm supposed to support him?

The way I see it. Kirkwall had a problem long before Meredieth took over. If mages turned to blood magic because of Meredieth then I can easily say that she is also a product of Kirkwall's festering issues. Neither party is right here. So when forced to choose. My warrior Hawke picked the Templars. Why? Because sadly, cleaning out the Gallows was a way to root out every hidden blood mage in there and in the city. Those he could save, like the mages who pleaded for their lives, he saved. 

As for my personal dislike for Anders. The way I see it (through my Hawke's eyes). Is that his sister is the embodiment of the good a mage can bring to the world. She was strong and very talented. Even Fenris points this out when comparing her and Anders.  Anders, imo, fell in love with being oppressed. Simple as that. In awakening he became a Grey Warden, freeing him from the circle. Yet he runs away fom the Wardens. I doubt they even cared enough to be bothered looking for him. He runs from Fereldan, which isn't as restrictive on mages and even has a King (if you make Alistair king) who helps them. He chooses Kirkwall of all places to live?? Why not Tiventar(sp)? I can understand wanting to save his friend but once that was over all he does is hang around and b*tch. Refusing to see any other side but his own. Refusing to truly see that mages like him sour the rest. Surely he says it later on but only to get Hawke to do his dirty work with his lie that he wants to separate himself from Justice. He knows the only way to do that is death. But no he wants to transform himself into a martyer first and in typical abomination fashion, off the blood of others.

If I were to look at it from my canon Warden mage perspective. She hated being locked in the circle and wanted to escape with Jowan. She became a Grey Warden and never looked back at the circle except to help them and get aid for the Blight.  Although she hated the circle she felt going through the Harrowing made her stronger. I doubt Anders ever faced the Harrowing. He was too busy thinking only of himself and running away.

So yeah more than petty anger at Anders but he is still a large part of why I sided with them because most of my contact in game was with him. And I found him to be full of shyt. Blowing up the chantry was the last straw, he had to go, along with all the hidden blood mages.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 26 février 2013 - 12:51 .

[MisterJB]

thats1evildude wrote...
and chose to turn into an abomination that could have slaughtered half the city.

Half the city? Short of Archdemons, Harvesters may very well be the most dangerous creatures in all of Thedas.
Give it a day or two and it will have slugthered the entirety of Kirkwall, made more of itself with their flesh and be on its way to taking over the Free Marches.

[Hazegurl]

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
With that definition, you might be able to (poorly) argue that the Circles are less oppressive than otehr oppressive systems.

You could not argue that they are not oppressive.

I see people controlling that which they have good reason to fear. Not opression.

Mages are not kin anymore than all homosexuals are kin, and only a bigot would make such an ignorant assertion. Even if we followed your ridiculous logic, nobody should be allowed to police anybody because we can't risk white people being lenient on other white people, or women being lenient to other women, or gays being lenient to other gays and so on ad infinitum.

And only an extremely naive person would actually believe that ethnicity plays no part in how people treat each other.
To avoid using real world examples, I'm going to use humans and elves. In most Andrastrean cities, there are no elves in the city guard. This leads to them having to rely on the goodwill of humans if they want justice. And most humans just don't care what happens to elves.
The same thing applies to mages policing mages without the templars which is Anders' suggestion. Mages would ignore crimes commited by other mages against mundanes.

Oh for ****'s sake, not this crap again. The brutality of the Templars is not some unfortunate circumstance that anyone might be expected to face, and comparing the two is moronic. If a tree is struck by lightning and falls on your house, that is just bad luck. If you are taken away from your parents and forced to live in a tower, under the watch of violent bigots, then someone is at fault, and must be punished.

The templars and the Chantry are thinking men and women who must be held accountable for their many misdeeds. They are not random forces of nature.

And I mentioned no random forces of nature whatsoever. What I said is that templars are not the sole source of despearation in the world which is true and that desperation can lead to even the best mages abusing her or her power which is also true.
if what it takes for mages to not be dangerous is for them to lead a life without troubles, then it's unrealistic to expect magic to not be dangerous.

The statement is self-evidently correct, if that's what you mean. There is no compromise, there was never any compromise, not under the current system. Any chance of compromise that Elthina or the Chantry represented was nothing but a flimsy illusion, and should've been exposed as such long ago.

That does not mean that Anders is unwilling to compromise, it means that he recognises that there is no hope for compromise. Not to mention, Anders spent seven years unsuccessfully petitioning for change in a totally peaceful way.

So, you do not deny he is uncompromising, you just agree with him.

Every act of violence instils fear in somebody, but that does not make all violent acts terrorism. But creating fear was not Anders intent at all. You're making assumptions about his thought process and reasoning that are simply not true. He explains himself quite clearly.

Even if he is a terrorist, I absolutely reject the notion that "terrorism" is automatically wrong. His target was an organization that itself creates and manipulates terror in order to maintain its position of authority. I will not criticize anyone for striking against a genuinely oppressive institution.

Acts of violence whose very purpose is to create fear to bring change; which is exactly what Anders did; are terrorism.
Once again, you can't deny what Anders is. You're just ok with it.

Except at no point in that sentence is Anders disregarding the plight of Tevinter slaves. He is stating that Fenris is unfairly prejudiced against mages, which is absolutely true. Fenris suffered greatly at the hand of Danarius, but that is not an excuse for his general douchery.

Fenris is the only person making any damn sense in that city.
First of all, Fenris did not let "a single bad experience" affect his world view. He suffered systematic abuses by mages his entire life and saw numerous non mages in Tevinter being subjcted to the same.
Anders is being an hypocrite because he is disregarding the suffering of slaves like Fenris while whinning constantly about the Circle System.

Fenris is himself a hypocrite, and not just towards Anders, but to all mages. I don't consider Anders' actions in this instance to be hypocritical, but if they are, then they are more than balanced out by Fenris's own raging hypocrisy. Fenris has no sympathy for mages, even when they suffer cruelty similar to that which was inflicted on him, so why should Anders have a care for Fenris?

Hypocrisy delivered against other "hypocrites"; Fenris is no hypocrite; is somehow less hypocrisy? Nonsense.

At no point does Anders say this.

Except around three times. And that is without counting all the times he warps on about destroying the templars and Chantry.

Being a mage and being a templar are not morally equivalent positions. Mages are born into their powers and then are doomed to either a life of imprisonment or a life of being relentlessly hunted. Templars actively choose to become what they are, and they make that choice, and train for years, knowing full well that the job involves committing unforgiveably cruel acts against fellow human beings. They have plenty of time to reconsider before taking their vows and their first dose of lyrium. Templars have no excuses.

Templars are performing a necessary service which protects both mundanes and mages while mantaining a stable society. Many of them, such as Ser Bryant, are good people simply trying to help others.
It's ridiculous to believe that all of them would support the "Tranquil Solution". Anders judges all templars by the actions of a few while asking for mages to not be all judged by the actions of a few. He is an hypocrite.

Thank you! Other reasons that ticked me off about Anders. His blantant hypocrisy. I had no idea Anders is okay with selling Fenris. That just adds on to my reasons for not liking him. I admit that I sided with the mages through most of the game and even did not like Fenris's views, that is until the story began to unfold more and more and I could see that he was just simply right. Tiventar is the perfect example of what could happen if mages are allowed free reign. But, the circle system was also falling apart as well. Although a part of me wonders if it had more to do with Templars going soft and not doing their jobs. Anders most certainly does consider all Templars the same and even seem shocked after finding out that not all of them agreed to make all mages Tranquil.  Their needed to be a compromise but both sides had to be willing to make it. I would say that the Templars, aside from Meredieth were willing to be fair. Anders "solution" to the problem did more harm than good. I'm on anothe rplaythrough where I am a mage and will side with mages at the end, but I hope I still get to execute Anders for his crime.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...
and chose to turn into an abomination that could have slaughtered half the city.

Half the city? Short of Archdemons, Harvesters may very well be the most dangerous creatures in all of Thedas.
Give it a day or two and it will have slugthered the entirety of Kirkwall, made more of itself with their flesh and be on its way to taking over the Free Marches.

Bah, there are a few flaws with the entire concept of Orsino, the Harvester, and Quentin. First, how was Quentin able to discover this? A Harvester requires either A) a specific ritual that morphs corpses (plus the caster, if he's part of it) into a Golem-esque creature, wherein a Demon comes in and possesses it (possibly killing the caster, if he's one of the bodies used).

So how did Quentin discover this irreversible ritual? Obviously, he didn't cast it on himself, but he would've had to find it out another way. So how?

Second, the Harvester was capable of destroying an entire thaig of Dwarven soldiers and researchers, plus a Tevinter Magister and her personal retinue. So how was Quentin able to defeat something that a Tevinter Magister couldn't? If he was able to do it, then they're not so powerful as you seem to claim. Ugly as sin, definitely. But if a wacko blood mage could defeat a creature that a Tevinter Magister couldn't....

Third, why in the hell would he even research this? He's insane, sure, but he was operating off of a specific concept: find a way to bring his dead wife back. I'm led to believe he duped Orsino into believing his research into reversing death was more benign then it truly was. 

Now, we know the Harvester ritual was what opened Orsino up to Quentin's insanity, but what prompted him to research something that has no bearing on his intended goal? 

Fourth, we already know that the boss fight was just added for gameplay, story be damned. And as there are major flaws with it.... well, it's obvious Bioware didn't give the idea of "Orsino being an unwitting accomplice to murders most foul, thus being caught between a rock and a hard place" idea enough thought to really be... well... satisfying. It was just done for gameplay.

So how much we should even accept it is.... up in the air.

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

Fact: there is a demon cult operating in Lowtown and a horde of abominations on the loose in Darktown during Act 3.

A demon cult that the Templars wouldn't even bother to investigate. The Templars refused Aveline's request for sending some of their men to help her keep the city safe years past.

Maybe if the Templars actually did their job, they could be seen as trustworthy.

And what horde of Abominations?

Fact: there is a gang of rogue blood mages attempting to take over Hightown in Act 3.

Also something the Templars don't deal with, despite now having a presence in Hightown.

Fact: a group of radical mage terrorists named the Resolutionists are operating in Kirkwall and attempt to assassinate the Chantry's representative.

A group of people that were certainly exacerbating problems, but were not the true problem themselves.

Fact: Huon, Alain, Grace and Orsino — all mages of Kirkwall's circle — have turned to blood magic, as have many other unnamed Circle mages.

Huon was treated like an animal, literally dragged away from his wife in chains and unable to even see her for all of 10 years. Beatings occur in the Circle, as do other forms of abuse, and given how the Templars of Kirkwall look down on Elves and don't care if they die, it's apparent that Huon suffered until his mind broke.

Alain and Grace were not of Kirkwall's Circle. The former turned to blood magic because of Karras raping him regularly and threatening him with Tranquility. Grace turns to blood magic out of plot stupidity -- good concept, heavily flawed execution -- but nevertheless she was intent on using it maliciously.

And Orsino.... he was pushed into that by an unjust, unethical, and unwarranted Right of Annulment. 

Fact: the Gallows and most of Lowtown is infested with abominations and demons during The Last Straw.

Than are the direct result of an unjust RoA.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Bah, there are a few flaws with the entire concept of Orsino, the Harvester, and Quentin. First, how was Quentin able to discover this? A Harvester requires either A) a specific ritual that morphs corpses (plus the caster, if he's part of it) into a Golem-esque creature, wherein a Demon comes in and possesses it (possibly killing the caster, if he's one of the bodies used).

So how did Quentin discover this irreversible ritual? Obviously, he didn't cast it on himself, but he would've had to find it out another way. So how?

We don't know. But it doesn't matter how.
The fact is - he knows something he shouldn't. Orsino is far from the innocent, moral, trustworthy father-figure some portray him as.
He had conenctions with blood-mages and knowledge of forbidden rituals.

If he was able to do it, then they're not so powerful as you seem to claim. Ugly as sin, definitely. But if a wacko blood mage could defeat a creature that a Tevinter Magister couldn't....

Not rally relevant as everything can be kileld in the game.
Archedemon, abominations of all kinds (that decimate entire villages or towns) are routinely killed by the player with contemptous ease.

Fourth, we already know that the boss fight was just added for gameplay, story be damned. And as there are major flaws with it.... well, it's obvious Bioware didn't give the idea of "Orsino being an unwitting accomplice to murders most foul, thus being caught between a rock and a hard place" idea enough thought to really be... well... satisfying. It was just done for gameplay.

Bosss fight added as an afterthought? Maybe. His connection to Quentin and blood mages? Not.
But regardless how stupid it is, it is still canon. You don't get to ignore it.

Oh, how tempting it is to ignore bad writing and plot holes in works you love... belive me, I know. I like to pretend some things don't exist (sometimes it's the onyl way to enjoy a show), but when it comes to debates you can't do that.

Simply put, plot and story is sometimes sacrificed for gampleay. that 's why the player is the one who has to deal with 256 abominatiosn (even tough they are supposed to be rare and ultra-deadly), raining bandints and why templars don't deal with stuff and cna't recognize mages, but the player does.

It sucks. Big time. But it's there...and neitehr me or you get to ignore it as much as we'd like.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 26 février 2013 - 09:24 .

[TEWR]

Not rally relevant as everything can be kileld in the game.
Archedemon, abominations of all kinds (that decimate entire villages or towns) are routinely killed by the player with contemptous ease.

Quentin is not the player. I've seen posters go "Well, the PC's special so that's why he can do X, Y, and Z". Fact of the matter is that Quentin is not the player and is thus not on the same level of "godhood" -- for want of a better word -- that the PC is.

And even if you're going to use that argument, people actually said that the Harvester fight to them was the toughest son of a **** battle in DA ever when it was there in GoA.

Which is a case of gameplay reflecting the lore, because if it took down a Tevinter Magister, Dwarves, and Tevinter soldiers and was tough to the players... that's saying something.

Not that I ever found it tough -- even on Nightmare -- but I've always been an odd gamer.

But it doesn't matter how.

It actually does matter.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 février 2013 - 11:01 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Meh, I never find that fight tough..but that certanly is irrelevant, since gameplay balance has no bearing on fluff reality. Never did sadly.

How did Orsino find out about it? I don't know. Maybe a demon told him. Maybe he found the ritual in old, abandoned texts. Maybe Quentin told him.
Why are you so certain that the only way for Orsino to know about it is to kill a Harvester himself? Obviously we know that didn't happen, so there must be other ways.

[dragonflight288]

How did Orsino find out about it? I don't know. Maybe a demon told him. Maybe he found the ritual in old, abandoned texts. Maybe Quentin told him.

Well, we know from Torpor that all magic and arcane knowledge in the Fade is eternal. The Harvester was only done once, by the dwarves of Amgarrok and a Tevinter Magister in their quest to build golems. And because it was all done once in Amgarrok, that makes the chances of Orsino and Quentin discovering it in an ancient text to be quite miniscule.

Unless the Warden and House Dace wrote about, and published their discoveries at Amgarrok (which is possible) I don't think they could have discovered through research.

Unless the Tevinter Magister had his own works written on it and we simply don't know about it. *shrug* But the chances of reading about making Harvester's are very small.

I'm more willing to bet that Orsino was doing a blood magic ritual in desperation, using the corpses for a certain affect, but the paper-thin veil allowed him and the corpses to catch the eye of a Fade Spirit and they were made a Harvester.

Why are you so certain that the only way for Orsino to know about it is to kill a Harvester himself? Obviously we know that didn't happen, so there must be other ways.

We know from Golems of Amgarrok that it took the corpses of others and a Fade Spirit being bound to them to make a Harvester. Whether Orsino knew or not is another matter, but Orsino was driven to the point of desperation and he was completely depressed, despairing over the dead, as we see on a pro-mage playthrough (even though fighting him makes absolutely no sense there.)

We know that it took the flesh of others, and they all died, so naturally it's logical to assume that anyone who became a Harvester, is dead.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
The Harvester was only done once, by the dwarves of Amgarrok and a Tevinter Magister in their quest to build golems.

....that we know off.

[DKJaigen]

Hazegurl wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

I just finished my first playthrough of DA2. It's not as good as the frist but i got into it after a while. I hear a lot of people sided with the mages at the end but I picked the Templars. Namely because there was just too many mages resorting to blood magic to get their way or allowing themselves to be possessed by demons.  At first i was mostly pro mage with bits of pro Templar spinkled in there but honestly, Anders contributed to a large part in why i sided with the Templars. Not my only reason but a big chuck of it. I used him as my healer so i took him nearly everywhere with me and all he did was constantly b*tch about the plight of mages. A mage turns to blood magic and kill a host of people then it was "See what they make us do?!?!" well no I don't! Fenris was right when he asked when are mages going to hold themselves accountable for their crimes. While I thought the Templars were too harsh, i found many more of them to be more sympathetic than the mages.  I even turned down Anders request to let him sneak into the chantry cause it became apparent that he was a lying sack of crap when I started to question him.  I also enjoyed killing him for his crime and I'm glad there was no mention of him in the epilouge. People remember the champion not his sorry ****.

Anyway, Although I sided with the Templars I still spared the mages that begged for their lives and pretty much knew Merideth was going to betray me cause she was just far too insane to be trusted. So glad I was able to kill her too.

So, I know this topic is late but did anyone else side with the Templars and felt it was a good choice instead of just for the trophy or to be "evil"?

You just condemned hundreds innocent man ,women and childeren to death because out of spite and anger. With no rationality or pragmatism involved. I may sound very harsh but we use the police and judges so that people like you are never allowed to judge over others. If we did the chaos suffering and anarchy would be tremendous.

Their are valid reasons to support the templars but this is not one of them. In fact i find more then a bit repulsive.

Okay fine, let me go over every reason why I sided with the Templars.

-Blood mages were all over Kirkwall before Act 3.
-The elf mage leader was harboring them. I had no real proof until he asked for help about them and their meetings
**We find out later that he harbored them, including a murderer. The same man who murders Hawke's mom. This confirmed to me that I was right.
-Anders wants total freedom for all mages. Meaning that they should be allowed to run around totally unchecked when mages have proven that they are far more dangerous as criminals et al than the average man.
-Anders allowed a demon into his body. Pretty much becoming the very reason why Templars like Meredieth exist.
-If you talk to the mages who escaped and hid in the cave, the first thing that mage woman asks is for you to murder Thrask who has done nothing but try to help them.
-She later kidnaps Bethany and murders Thrask herself.
-Blood mages have turned on the people they love, killing them for power.

Anders being a sneaky b*tch and asking me to sneak him into the Chantry was too shady for me to say yes to and when probed he starts talking about how you shouldn't mind people dying for the freedom of mages. Um, no. I do mind.

Then Anders turns to terrorism and I'm supposed to support him?

The way I see it. Kirkwall had a problem long before Meredieth took over. If mages turned to blood magic because of Meredieth then I can easily say that she is also a product of Kirkwall's festering issues. Neither party is right here. So when forced to choose. My warrior Hawke picked the Templars. Why? Because sadly, cleaning out the Gallows was a way to root out every hidden blood mage in there and in the city. Those he could save, like the mages who pleaded for their lives, he saved. 

As for my personal dislike for Anders. The way I see it (through my Hawke's eyes). Is that his sister is the embodiment of the good a mage can bring to the world. She was strong and very talented. Even Fenris points this out when comparing her and Anders.  Anders, imo, fell in love with being oppressed. Simple as that. In awakening he became a Grey Warden, freeing him from the circle. Yet he runs away fom the Wardens. I doubt they even cared enough to be bothered looking for him. He runs from Fereldan, which isn't as restrictive on mages and even has a King (if you make Alistair king) who helps them. He chooses Kirkwall of all places to live?? Why not Tiventar(sp)? I can understand wanting to save his friend but once that was over all he does is hang around and b*tch. Refusing to see any other side but his own. Refusing to truly see that mages like him sour the rest. Surely he says it later on but only to get Hawke to do his dirty work with his lie that he wants to separate himself from Justice. He knows the only way to do that is death. But no he wants to transform himself into a martyer first and in typical abomination fashion, off the blood of others.

If I were to look at it from my canon Warden mage perspective. She hated being locked in the circle and wanted to escape with Jowan. She became a Grey Warden and never looked back at the circle except to help them and get aid for the Blight.  Although she hated the circle she felt going through the Harrowing made her stronger. I doubt Anders ever faced the Harrowing. He was too busy thinking only of himself and running away.

So yeah more than petty anger at Anders but he is still a large part of why I sided with them because most of my contact in game was with him. And I found him to be full of shyt. Blowing up the chantry was the last straw, he had to go, along with all the hidden blood mages.

Your still judging people by emotion. So i dont care what you have to say.

[dragonflight288]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
The Harvester was only done once, by the dwarves of Amgarrok and a Tevinter Magister in their quest to build golems.

....that we know off.

There's yet to be any evidence of there being more than two harvesters. The one in Amgarok and the one Orsino turned into. Amgarok was all about restoring golems, and they decided on using flesh over steel. Easier to get ahold of, cheaper (they used casteless and the magister held deep reservations about it) but it was still all about recreating golems.

We may not know of more, but as of this moment, it's safe to assume there aren't any more, due to the need to create golems by the dwarves and the lack of need in other areas of Thedas.

[NorwegianPirate]

dragonflight288 wrote...

There's yet to be any evidence of there being more than two harvesters. The one in Amgarok and the one Orsino turned into. Amgarok was all about restoring golems, and they decided on using flesh over steel. Easier to get ahold of, cheaper (they used casteless and the magister held deep reservations about it) but it was still all about recreating golems.

We may not know of more, but as of this moment, it's safe to assume there aren't any more, due to the need to create golems by the dwarves and the lack of need in other areas of Thedas.

Now that the Harvesters have been introduced, the developers might decide to use them as boss battles more often. And my memory is a little rusty here, but didn't we see quite a few Harvester head things crawling ominously towards the screen after GoA ended?

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Bah, there are a few flaws with the entire concept of Orsino, the Harvester, and Quentin. First, how was Quentin able to discover this? A Harvester requires either A) a specific ritual that morphs corpses (plus the caster, if he's part of it) into a Golem-esque creature, wherein a Demon comes in and possesses it (possibly killing the caster, if he's one of the bodies used).

Is it really so hard to believe that Quentin learned a way to create a theoretical Harvester ritual as a by-product of his experiments?

His research was entirely focused on necromancy. What is a Harvester, if not a larger, uglier version of the Frankenstein's bride that he turned Leandra into? They're both undead monstrosities given form by blood magic.

Further to that point, I should note that his research was being supported by Orsino. The senior enchanter wanted Quentin to give him a weapon for use against Meredith; it isn't a stretch that he developed the Harvester ritual in exchange for that support while he was working on creating a simulacrum of his dead wife. 

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So how did Quentin discover this irreversible ritual? Obviously, he didn't cast it on himself, but he would've had to find it out another way. So how?

I should note that the ritual doesn't necessarily require the caster as its focus. That's how Orsino used it, because he was suicidal in both versions of the ending.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Second, the Harvester was capable of destroying an entire thaig of Dwarven soldiers and researchers, plus a Tevinter Magister and her personal retinue. So how was Quentin able to defeat something that a Tevinter Magister couldn't?

Well, assuming that he actually did create a Harvester, the key difference is that he would have controlled it, unlike those poor bastards in Amgarrak.

But why would he need to have created a Harvester? He could have simply figured out the ritual. Orsino's use of it could literally have been the first time it was ever used.

If you accept that Quentin could have theoretically created the ritual and then provided notes to Orsino on how it could be performed, then why does it HAVE to have been done once before?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Third, why in the hell would he even research this? He's insane, sure, but he was operating off of a specific concept: find a way to bring his dead wife back. I'm led to believe he duped Orsino into believing his research into reversing death was more benign then it truly was.

By-product of his research. Like I said, the Harvester is not all that different from Leandra — they're both flesh golems. The main distinction is that the Harvester is a weapon.

Lots of important discoveries are made in the course of other research. Take penicillin, for example.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 26 février 2013 - 08:23 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...
Your still judging people by emotion. So i dont care what you have to say.

Are you implying you don't?

[dragonflight288]

NorwegianPirate wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

There's yet to be any evidence of there being more than two harvesters. The one in Amgarok and the one Orsino turned into. Amgarok was all about restoring golems, and they decided on using flesh over steel. Easier to get ahold of, cheaper (they used casteless and the magister held deep reservations about it) but it was still all about recreating golems.

We may not know of more, but as of this moment, it's safe to assume there aren't any more, due to the need to create golems by the dwarves and the lack of need in other areas of Thedas.

Now that the Harvesters have been introduced, the developers might decide to use them as boss battles more often. And my memory is a little rusty here, but didn't we see quite a few Harvester head things crawling ominously towards the screen after GoA ended?

Yes we did. I don't know if that's because there were a lot of Harvesters, if those harvested became those heads, or if it was a dramtic device to suggest a reason why our Warden disappeared.

I wouldn't be surprised if we faced more Harvesters in the future. It may be because plot-wise, some idiot may try to restore Amgarok's research and try to perfect it, thus creating a lot more Harvester's, or if there are more out there that we simply aren't aware of.

I merely don't see any evidence or implications that there may be more out there.

Again, House Dace and the Warden may write about their adventures in Amgarok and draw unnecessary attention to the Harvester's and they may be created en-masse, or if primeval dwarves actually created a few, if the darkspawn have their own equivalent, or even if other countries outside of Orzammar tried making golems themselves and ended up with Harvesters.

All are plausible plot points. These haven't been established and there aren't any codex entries, lore or implications as of yet that suggests there are more Harvester's out there.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That's not Meredith's argument. The Knight-Commander makes the same argument over and over again when it comes to the Right of Annulment she has invoked: she wants to appease a hypothetical mob. That's even what she says when she attempts to persuade Hawke to side with her. Despite Anders' confession, she wants to kill every mage in Kirkwall, and she proceeds to handwave Anders' existance afterward.

Again, so what?
The player is not Meredith.

Her reasons are not relevant. The question is why would a player go with either option. What are the players reasons? 

You mean substituting the only given reason in the story for siding with Meredith with fan fiction instead?

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Civilians might die because hundreds of mages are going to be fighting for their lives because Meredith is trying to kill them all for something they didn't do. Do I condemn hundreds of men, women, and children to execution to help a lunatic appease a hypothetical mob, or do I protect innocent people from someone who is going to kill them all because of something Alone alone did?

Factored in. If something like Broken Circle would happen in Kikwall...the death toll would be catastrophic.
The city guard doesn't seem very competent - they can't deal with 100 quanari, what do you think would happen in 100 abominations and blood mages go on a rampage?

And - as others have noted - the request for Annulment have been made BEFORE the Anders incident.

After Meredith's request was initially denied. You're also condemning hundreds of men, women, and children who the player has never even met before at a time when Meredith is illegally ruling over Kirkwall and her templars are engaging in abuses against mages and the common people of the city-state.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Innocence is murky concept when the innocent you want to protect are a tickign bomb that will kill many more even more innocents. 

The ticking time bomb I had to deal with in Kirkwall was a templar named Meredith, who condemned hundreds of innocent people to death and lost her sanity.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 26 février 2013 - 09:22 .

[thats1evildude]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The ticking time bomb I had to deal with in Kirkwall was a templar named Meredith, who condemned hundreds of innocent people to death and lost her sanity.

Innocent people like Orsino, who knowingly allowed a serial killer to roam freely in Kirkwall? And those who will die if a bunch of dangerous blood mages wander freely?

I guess the victims only matter if they're wearing robes.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 26 février 2013 - 09:45 .

[MisterJB]

A shameful thing that so few Hawkes take their duty to the city seriously. The last time I checked, the title read "Champion of Kirkwall" and not "Champion of Kirkwall's Circle".

Modifié par MisterJB, 26 février 2013 - 09:44 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

Okay fine, let me go over every reason why I sided with the Templars.

-Blood mages were all over Kirkwall before Act 3. [/quote]

In an enviornment where we know mages are being whipped and beaten. In a Circle of Magi where we had templars torturing a da'len (child) of the Dalish to get information, we had rapists among the templars who had made mages tranquil illegally (with Alrik threatening child mage Ella with rape and tranquility), we have Alain turning to blood magic because he was getting raped by templars, we have Huon being turned into an insane blood mage after ten years of being imprisoned in the Circle of Kirkwall (after years where he was living as a sane elf in the Alienage), we have the Knight-Commander illegally ruling over Kirkwall as the de facto Viscount, and we have Meredith's death squad of templars murdering civilians in broad daylight.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

-The elf mage leader was harboring them. I had no real proof until he asked for help about them and their meetings [/quote]

Incorrect. Orsino hid his dealings with Quentin specifically - which are so sketchy we honestly know next to nothing about it (precisely because Orsino' entire turn into a Harvester was due to the fact that the developers wanted to avoid the mage ending being the "good" ending and they wanted another boss battle for the mage side). That's pretty much the extent of what we actually know. There's absolutely no evidence Orsino was hiding or harboring anyone other than Quentin.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

**We find out later that he harbored them, including a murderer. The same man who murders Hawke's mom. This confirmed to me that I was right. [/quote]

You're correct about Orsino hiding information about Quentin - which he did because he claimed Meredith would use it as justification to murder hundreds of men, women, and children for the actions of one single man, which is precisely what she does when Anders blows up the Kirkwall Chantry.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

-Anders wants total freedom for all mages. Meaning that they should be allowed to run around totally unchecked when mages have proven that they are far more dangerous as criminals et al than the average man. [/quote]

Templars have proven more dangerous (in my humble opinion) since the Order of Templars has the continent's religion on their side (to the point where they have "dominion over mages by divine right"), especially considering they have the authority to order genocide against innocent people for an act they had nothing to do with (which was entirely legal, per Gaider's WoG, which shows how horrific Chantry law can be against mages).

Furthermore, the goal to see mages given autonomy from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars is precisely what the Hero of Ferelden (from the Circle of Ferelden) can request from the new ruler of Ferelden, and both Queen Anora and King Alistair will publicly agree that mages have earned the right to govern themselves. It's not as though Anders is the only one who thinks that the slavery of the Chantry controlled Circles should be brought to an end.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

-Anders allowed a demon into his body. Pretty much becoming the very reason why Templars like Meredieth exist. [/quote]

While Meredith became possessed, which can happen to other non-mages as well. More importantly, who watches the watchmen?

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

-If you talk to the mages who escaped and hid in the cave, the first thing that mage woman asks is for you to murder Thrask who has done nothing but try to help them. [/quote]

Her lover, Decimus, also thinks Merrill is a templar. Merrill. The Dalish elf. A member of a group of people who have been enemies with the templars for centuries, and who are presently hunted down by templars. Let's not pretend that the depiction of stupid and insane mages even made any sense in Dragon Age II when we have absurd stupidity like that.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

-She later kidnaps Bethany and murders Thrask herself. [/quote]

Because my apostate Hawke helped Grace and the other Starkhaven mages escape. And mages and templars allied with Thrask attack my pro-mage apostate Hawke because they think he is allied with Meredith, despite the fact that my Champion publicly condemned Meredith's dictatorship, and even killed her death squad of templars before they could kill a civilian. Yes, the plot was stupidly written.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

-Blood mages have turned on the people they love, killing them for power. [/quote]

Merrill never turned on my Champion; she used blood magic to cleanse a corrupted shard of the darkspawn taint, and never abused her powers. Alain wanted to overthrow Meredith's dictatorship and put an end to the abuses and rapes of mages by corrupt templars, which is why he sided with Thrask.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

Anders being a sneaky b*tch and asking me to sneak him into the Chantry was too shady for me to say yes to and when probed he starts talking about how you shouldn't mind people dying for the freedom of mages. Um, no. I do mind.

Then Anders turns to terrorism and I'm supposed to support him? [/quote]

So your Hawke supported Meredith's decision to murder hundreds of men, women, and children who had nothing to do with Anders' actions? How does that make you any better than Anders when he killed a few members of the Chantry and a few templars, while you help kill an entire population of people who are innocent of Anders' actions?

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

The way I see it. Kirkwall had a problem long before Meredieth took over. If mages turned to blood magic because of Meredieth then I can easily say that she is also a product of Kirkwall's festering issues. Neither party is right here. So when forced to choose. My warrior Hawke picked the Templars. Why? Because sadly, cleaning out the Gallows was a way to root out every hidden blood mage in there and in the city. Those he could save, like the mages who pleaded for their lives, he saved. [/quote]

You mean three mages who will likely be made tranquil, out of hundreds of people who are being killed? As for your reference to blood mages - you mean blood mages like Alain, who simply wanted to stop being raped by templars? I guess your Hawke plans on killing the Grey Wardens who use blood magic to give them an edge in defeating the darkspawn next?

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

As for my personal dislike for Anders. The way I see it (through my Hawke's eyes). Is that his sister is the embodiment of the good a mage can bring to the world. She was strong and very talented. Even Fenris points this out when comparing her and Anders.  Anders, imo, fell in love with being oppressed. Simple as that. In awakening he became a Grey Warden, freeing him from the circle. Yet he runs away fom the Wardens. I doubt they even cared enough to be bothered looking for him. He runs from Fereldan, which isn't as restrictive on mages and even has a King (if you make Alistair king) who helps them. He chooses Kirkwall of all places to live?? Why not Tiventar(sp)? I can understand wanting to save his friend but once that was over all he does is hang around and b*tch. Refusing to see any other side but his own. Refusing to truly see that mages like him sour the rest. Surely he says it later on but only to get Hawke to do his dirty work with his lie that he wants to separate himself from Justice. He knows the only way to do that is death. But no he wants to transform himself into a martyer first and in typical abomination fashion, off the blood of others. [/quote]

Anders left Ferelden to go to Kirkwall because he wanted to rescue Karl - his first love - from the Circle of Kirkwall. Karl was the one who wrote to Anders about the horror stories of what was going on in the Circle. As we know from the letter we can pick up in "Tranquility", Karl was illegally made tranquil on orders from Alrik, who was making mages tranquil illegally. It's after this that Anders' decides to become a part of the mage underground, and put a stop to the abuses that were going on in the Circle of Kirkwall.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

If I were to look at it from my canon Warden mage perspective. She hated being locked in the circle and wanted to escape with Jowan. She became a Grey Warden and never looked back at the circle except to help them and get aid for the Blight.  Although she hated the circle she felt going through the Harrowing made her stronger. I doubt Anders ever faced the Harrowing. He was too busy thinking only of himself and running away. [/quote]

My canon Surana Warden asked for the Circle of Ferelden to be given it's independence. Like the historical Aldenon the Wise, he took issue with the slavery of the Chantry controlled Circles.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

So yeah more than petty anger at Anders but he is still a large part of why I sided with them because most of my contact in game was with him. And I found him to be full of shyt. Blowing up the chantry was the last straw, he had to go, along with all the hidden blood mages. [/quote]

Along with countless innocent people who weren't responsible for his actions.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Again, so what?
The player is not Meredith.

Her reasons are not relevant. The question is why would a player go with either option. What are the players reasons? 

You mean substituting the only given reason in the story for siding with Meredith with fan fiction instead?

How is it fanfiction?
You really abuse that word like there's no tomorrow.

The game does provide plenty of reasons. Every player makes his own decisions. Everyone Hawk has is own line of reasoning- regardless if the game explicitly acknowledges it or not.
In this specific case, some characters in the game thought the Circle was beyond saving. That is a valid reason. My Hawke agreed and saw Anderes little act of terror as an opportunity to end the madness in Kirkwall.

After Meredith's request was initially denied. You're also condemning hundreds of men, women, and children who the player has never even met before at a time when Meredith is illegally ruling over Kirkwall and her templars are engaging in abuses against mages and the common people of the city-state.

I don't care if the request was denied earlier or not. Why should I? Then is then, now is now.

And tough choices are what one would expect no? AS horrible as it sounds, that is what damage control basicly is. You cut off the deseased arm before your whole body is taken. Doesn't mean that you don't want to keep the arm if you could, but I'd rahter risk my arm than my life.