462 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
You're correct about Orsino hiding information about Quentin - which he did because he claimed Meredith would use it as justification to murder hundreds of men, women, and children for the actions of one single man, which is precisely what she does when Anders blows up the Kirkwall Chantry.

Excuses, excuses.
That wouldn't fly if I were to hide information from the police, but if a mage hides vital information, then it's AOK?

While Meredith became possessed, which can happen to other non-mages as well. More importantly, who watches the watchmen?

No, she was driven insane by a cursed artifact - the only on of it's kind (that we know of) b.t.w.
There is no comparison betwwen the two.

Her lover, Decimus, also thinks Merrill is a templar. Merrill. The Dalish elf. A member of a group of people who have been enemies with the templars for centuries, and who are presently hunted down by templars. Let's not pretend that the depiction of stupid and insane mages even made any sense in Dragon Age II when we have absurd stupidity like that.

Then let's also ignore te stupid depiction of templars too, shall we?
YOU DON'T GET TO CHERRY PICK
Actually you do, but  no one can take you seriously then.

My canon Surana Warden asked for the Circle of Ferelden to be given it's independence. Like the historical Aldenon the Wise, he took issue with the slavery of the Chantry controlled Circles.

You keep brining in Aldenon the Moron as if mentioning the name somehow gives you validity.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 26 février 2013 - 10:13 .

[LobselVith8]

thats1evildude wrote...

Fact: the Gallows and most of Lowtown is infested with abominations and demons during The Last Straw.

We also see abominations being summoned as though they were demons, despite the fact that the developers acknowledge that this isn't cannocial. It's a seperation between gameplay and the mechanics of the game. We also have a blood mage attacking a pro-mage Champion (in The Last Straw) for defending the Kirkwall mages from Meredith and the templars - unless you are trying to tell me that blood mage was a templar supporter, I don't think it's canon.

thats1evildude wrote...

Kirkwall's Circle has become hopelessly corrupt and the city is on the brink of disaster. Annulment is the only option. 

You're condemning an entire population of people you never even meet because mage criminals commit crimes? Following that logic, you may as well condemn all the dwarves in Kirkwall to death because every member of the carta you fight is a dwarf.

thats1evildude wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The ticking time bomb I had to deal with in Kirkwall was a templar named Meredith, who condemned hundreds of innocent people to death and lost her sanity. 

Innocent people like Orsino, who knowingly allowed a serial killer to roam freely in Kirkwall? And those who will die if a bunch of dangerous blood mages wander freely?

I guess the victims only matter if they're wearing robes. 

One man out of hundreds, who is killed by the pro-mage Champion of Kirkwall while he protects the hundreds of innocent people from Meredith's genocidal lunacy. I'm not going to condemn an entire population of people for the actions of Anders or Orsino.

MisterJB wrote...

A shameful thing that so few Hawkes take their duty to the city seriously. The last time I checked, the title read "Champion of Kirkwall" and not "Champion of Kirkwall's Circle".

The people of the Circle of Kirkwall deserve to be protected just as much as the rest of the people of the city-state.

[thats1evildude]

I get kind of weary of the Decimus thing constantly being brought up.

Let's examine what Decimus actually knew, shall we?

1) He and his group were cornered in a cave.
2) There was a templar outside of the cave and more on the way.
3) A group of complete strangers just hacked through his undead army.

Let's bring this into a modern context. Say you were in the middle of an armed compound surrounded by a small army of trained guards. Your compound was surrounded by government agents and you had every reason to believe those government agents would break in and kill you.

Let's say someone not dressed like a government agent broke into your compound and started killing your guards, would you:

a) Assume they had a good reason for doing so and just wanted to talk, or;
Assume they were government agents.

Most people would choose the second option, and they don't even need to be a raving lunatic like Decimus.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 26 février 2013 - 10:27 .

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean substituting the only given reason in the story for siding with Meredith with fan fiction instead?

How is it fanfiction?
You really abuse that word like there's no tomorrow.

Because Meredith's only expressed reason for declaring the Right of Annulment - and the only reason she gives in her attempts to persuade the Champion to her side - is that the mob will demand blood. That's it. That's the given reason for the Right of Annulment against the mages of Kirkwall.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The game does provide plenty of reasons. Every player makes his own decisions. Everyone Hawk has is own line of reasoning- regardless if the game explicitly acknowledges it or not.
In this specific case, some characters in the game thought the Circle was beyond saving. That is a valid reason. My Hawke agreed and saw Anderes little act of terror as an opportunity to end the madness in Kirkwall.

You thought a Circle of Kirkwall full of hundreds of people you've never even met before were beyond saving?

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

After Meredith's request was initially denied. You're also condemning hundreds of men, women, and children who the player has never even met before at a time when Meredith is illegally ruling over Kirkwall and her templars are engaging in abuses against mages and the common people of the city-state.

I don't care if the request was denied earlier or not. Why should I? Then is then, now is now.

Because it questions the validity of whether the Circle of Kirkwall deserved to be annuled when the request was already denied, at a time when Meredith was having a reign of terror on the city-state of Kirkwall as the self-imposed ruler of it's people.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And tough choices are what one would expect no? AS horrible as it sounds, that is what damage control basicly is. You cut off the deseased arm before your whole body is taken. Doesn't mean that you don't want to keep the arm if you could, but I'd rahter risk my arm than my life.

That's precisely why I oppose Meredith, and kill every templar in my path to protect the hundreds who are innocent of Anders' actions.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The people of the Circle of Kirkwall deserve to be protected just as much as the rest of the people of the city-state.

Not when their existence threatens the well being of the larger population.
If you defend the maegs, two things can happen.

Hawke might lose in which case all he did was prolong this armed conflict therefore causing greater casualties.

Or Hawke wins in which case the most powerful force assuring law and order in the city has been massacred leaving hundred of extremely dangerous people on the loose with an even more rotten Veil. Groups of mages will seek to place themselves in the Viscount's seat while the mundane population of Kirkwall will be outraged by what they will see as a carefully orchestrated plot to murder both the Grand Cleric and the Knight Commander devised by the mages.
Aveline's guards will be unable to keep order, fighting will ensue and more lives will be lost. Either the mundanes will kill every single mage they can find or the mages will reach the conclusion the only way they can live in the city is by ruling it.
If by some miracle the entirety of Kirkwall is not burned to the ground within a week, the Exalted Armies the Divine will send against it will proceed to do it anyway.

Nice job protecting the city, oh Champion of Kirkwall.

Modifié par MisterJB, 26 février 2013 - 10:38 .

[thats1evildude]

LobselVith8 wrote...

We also see abominations being summoned as though they were demons, despite the fact that the developers acknowledge that this isn't cannocial.

I've never understood why people have a problem with this. So they travel through the ground … so what? So does Merrill. So did Velanna. It's just magic.

LobselVith8 wrote...

We also have a blood mage attacking a pro-mage Champion (in The Last Straw) for defending the Kirkwall mages from Meredith and the templars - unless you are trying to tell me that blood mage was a templar supporter, I don't think it's canon.

Well, no, said blood mage was probably just slaughtering everyone she could find to use their deaths to summon more demons. She already had a small army of them.

LobselVith8 wrote...

You're condemning an entire population of people you never even meet because mage criminals commit crimes? Following that logic, you may as well condemn all the dwarves in Kirkwall to death because every member of the carta you fight is a dwarf.

That is a fallacy. Dwarves are a species, Carta dwarves are part of a criminal organization.

LobselVith8 wrote...

One man out of hundreds, who is killed by the pro-mage Champion of Kirkwall while he protects the hundreds of innocent people from Meredith's genocidal lunacy. I'm not going to condemn an entire population of people for the actions of Anders or Orsino.

Let's be clear here: you're not killing hundreds of innocent people. A pro-templar Hawke is not Anakin Skywalker massacring the Jedi Temple.

Most of those mages turn into abominations anyway. You can save almost as many mages going the Templar route as you can with the Mage route.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 26 février 2013 - 10:57 .

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You're correct about Orsino hiding information about Quentin - which he did because he claimed Meredith would use it as justification to murder hundreds of men, women, and children for the actions of one single man, which is precisely what she does when Anders blows up the Kirkwall Chantry.

Excuses, excuses.
That wouldn't fly if I were to hide information from the police, but if a mage hides vital information, then it's AOK?

Then condemn Orsino, not the hundreds of people who weren't responsible for his actions.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

While Meredith became possessed, which can happen to other non-mages as well. More importantly, who watches the watchmen?

No, she was driven insane by a cursed artifact - the only on of it's kind (that we know of) b.t.w.
There is no comparison betwwen the two.

We know that animals, trees, and ordinary people can become possessed. We can even speak to a Poet Tree. And Meredith seemed to be possessed by the idol, since it's said by Cullen that she was having conversations with someone who simply wasn't there.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Her lover, Decimus, also thinks Merrill is a templar. Merrill. The Dalish elf. A member of a group of people who have been enemies with the templars for centuries, and who are presently hunted down by templars. Let's not pretend that the depiction of stupid and insane mages even made any sense in Dragon Age II when we have absurd stupidity like that.

Then let's also ignore te stupid depiction of templars too, shall we?
YOU DON'T GET TO CHERRY PICK
Actually you do, but  no one can take you seriously then.

I've already pointed many times that templars were one-dimensional in how they were depicted in the storyline. I've also mentioned time and again that Meredith purchasing the idol didn't make much sense, either. I also said time and again that I thought Origins did a much better job with three-dimensional templars with the examples of Ser Bryant, the Lothering templars, Ser Otto, and Knight-Commander Greagoir.

Or were you referring to the example of Cullen ignoring that pro-templar Hawke can warn him about Anders' plot against the Kirkwall Chantry (while Anders stands next to Hawke, no less) and that Cullen proceeds to do nothing?

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

My canon Surana Warden asked for the Circle of Ferelden to be given it's independence. Like the historical Aldenon the Wise, he took issue with the slavery of the Chantry controlled Circles.

You keep brining in Aldenon the Moron as if mentioning the name somehow gives you validity. 

I think the views of the co-founder of Ferelden have merit.

[LobselVith8]

thats1evildude wrote...

I get kind of weary of the Decimus thing constantly being brought up.

Because virtually every mage antagonist but two are insane and stupid in Dragon Age II, which is why Decimus is brought up as one example among many others.

thats1evildude wrote...

Let's examine what Decimus actually knew, shall we?

1) He and his group were cornered in a cave.
2) There was a templar outside of the cave and more on the way.
3) A group of complete strangers just hacked through his undead army.

First, the mages were cornered in a cave. I don't see why that should make Decimus stupid or insane. He attacks Hawke, even though his stated reason makes absolutely no sense. Why doesn't Decimus ask Hawke who he is? Why doesn't he see if Hawke is a potential ally, instead of mindlessly attacking him like a buffoon? This is one of the many reasons why some fans view Dragon Age II as a hack and slash game, or why the developers even poked fun at this aspect of the game when (in Legacy) Carver jokes that Hawke basically punched his way to the role of Champion of Kirkwall.

Second, the Starkhaven mages were hiding in the cave. Again, I don't see why Decimus should think that a pirate without pants, a man wearing feathers, a bare-chested dwarf, a Tevinter elf with lyrium tattos, or a Dalish elf were templars. The fact that Decimus thinks that a Dalish elf is a templar brings this to a new level of stupidity. The templars and the Dalish have been enemies for centuries - to the point where the templars hunt down the Dalish, which is precisely the reason why they are nomadic.

Three, a group of strangers didn't allow themselves to be killed. Again, I'm not seeing how or why Decimus should assume that they were templars.

thats1evildude wrote...

Let's bring this into a modern context. Say you were in the middle of an armed compound surrounded by a small army of trained guards. Your compound was surrounded by government agents and you had every reason to believe those government agents would break in and kill you.

Let's say someone not dressed like a government agent broke into your compound and started killing your guards, would you:

a) Assume they had a good reason for doing so and just wanted to talk, or;
Assume they were government agents.

Most people would choose the second option, and they don't even need to be a raving lunatic like Decimus.

Since Hawke's moiety crew looks absolutely nothing like the templars, it calls into question how anyone would assume they were templars. Much less if Hawke is an apostate using magic to defend himself, as well as some of his companions (like the Dalish elf who uses blood magic).

[thats1evildude]

For ****'s sake, Lobsel, I'm not saying that he's insane because he's in a cave. Stop trying to twist my words.

The important point is that Decimus doesn't know who Hawke is or why s/he's in the cave; all he knows is that Hawke is hacking up his undead minions and there's templars coming to arrest him.

Yeah, Hawke may be a mage, and even a blood mage, but not all mages oppose the templars. There are fratenities within the Circle dedicated to working with the templars — the Loyalists, for example. And the templars do employ outside agents like bounty hunters.

Knowing all that, is it really so out of the question that Hawke may be an agent of the templars, even if he isn't dressed like them?

I know you want to see every mage as an innocent lamb unfairly oppressed by those mean templars, but mages are people. People are stupid. People are paranoid. People jump to ridiculous conclusions based on the flimsiest of evidence. People panic at the drop of a hat. And Decimus was a person.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 26 février 2013 - 11:18 .

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The people of the Circle of Kirkwall deserve to be protected just as much as the rest of the people of the city-state.

Not when their existence threatens the well being of the larger population.
If you defend the maegs, two things can happen.

Hawke might lose in which case all he did was prolong this armed conflict therefore causing greater casualties.

I wouldn't have a problem with my apostate Hawke dying to protect as many people as he could from Meredith and the templars following her orders. If even one mage survived because of his actions, then I think it was worth it. As Varric reveals, there were "many survivors" because my apostate Hawke decided to protect the mages from the templars.

MisterJB wrote...

Or Hawke wins in which case the most powerful force assuring law and order in the city has been massacred leaving hundred of extremely dangerous people on the loose with an even more rotten Veil. Groups of mages will seek to place themselves in the Viscount's seat while the mundane population of Kirkwall will be outraged by what they will see as a carefully orchestrated plot to murder both the Grand Cleric and the Knight Commander devised by the mages.

We see what happens when pro-mage Hawke defeats Meredith and kills as many templars as he possibly can - the Kirkwall mages flee Kirkwall. That's it.

MisterJB wrote...

Aveline's guards will be unable to keep order, fighting will ensue and more lives will be lost. Either the mundanes will kill every single mage they can find or the mages will reach the conclusion the only way they can live in the city is by ruling it.

However, that doesn't happen, because the mages simply leave Kirkwall and head elsewhere.

MisterJB wrote...

If by some miracle the entirety of Kirkwall is not burned to the ground within a week, the Exalted Armies the Divine will send against it will proceed to do it anyway.

Nice job protecting the city, oh Champion of Kirkwall. 

What's interesting about your scenario is that this is virtually what happens with the templars - Meredith takes over Kirkwall, she rules over the common people, she attempts to usurp control over the City Guard, she installs her templars in the Viscount's Keep, her death squad is killing people in broad daylight, and Leliana reveals that the Divine will likely declare an Exalted March against Kirkwall.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I wouldn't have a problem with my apostate Hawke dying to protect as many people as he could from Meredith and the templars following her orders. If even one mage survived because of his actions, then I think it was worth it. As Varric reveals, there were "many survivors" because my apostate Hawke decided to protect the mages from the templars.

Right, who cares if half the city burns? All that matters is protecting that one mage.

However, that doesn't happen, because the mages simply leave Kirkwall and head elsewhere.

That didn't happen because a Pro-mage Hawke always loses. The templars are still there to keep law and order in the city, most of the mages are dead and those who survived flee.
And like I said, Pro-Mage Hawke simply prolongs the conflict, uncaring of how much damage will be done to Kirkwall in the meantime.

What's interesting about your scenario is that this is virtually what happens with the templars - Meredith takes over Kirkwall, she rules over the common people, she attempts to usurp control over the City Guard, she installs her templars in the Viscount's Keep, her death squad is killing people in broad daylight, and Leliana reveals that the Divine will likely declare an Exalted March against Kirkwall.

No, not even close.
The Divine considers an Exalted March because of the increasing number of blood mage terrorists and abominations, not Meredith's policies who also lead to no such thing as a civil conflict in the streets of Kirkwall as would have happened had the mages defeated the templars.

[LobselVith8]

thats1evildude wrote...

For ****'s sake, Lobsel, I'm not saying that he's insane because he's in a cave. Stop trying to twist my words.

I'm saying that he doesn't know who Hawke is or why s/he's in the cave; all he knows is that Hawke is chopping up his undead soldiers and there's templars coming to arrest him. With all that information, is it really so out of the question that he may believe Hawke is an agent of the templars?

I'm not trying to twist your words around, but I can't dismiss what I see transpire in Dragon Age II: Decimus explicitly claims that Hawke and his moiety crew are templars, to the point where Grace addresses this very statement. And the fact that Hawke's moiety crew is so inconsistent with the appearance of every single templar we have ever seen should address the problem with how Decimus behaves. Much less the problem of having an apostate Hawke (who may even use blood magic) and Merrill in the mix.

thats1evildude wrote...

Yeah, Hawke may be a mage, and even a blood mage, but not all mages oppose the templars. There are fratenities within the Circle dedicated to working with the templars.

True, there's Finn, who doesn't seem to have a problem with the Circle of Ferelden. And I realize there are others like Finn. I've never denied that not every mage has the same view.

However, there are mages who oppose the Chantry Controlled Circle. Even a moderate like Irving will congratulate and thank the Hero of Ferelden for asking for the Circle of Ferelden to be given it's independence from the Chantry and the templars (since, as Irving notes, he could have asked for a title or riches instead); he even says that the Hero has freed the Circle from it's "shackles".

thats1evildude wrote...

I know you want to see every mage as an innocent lamb unfairly oppressed by those mean templars, but mages are people. People are stupid. People are paranoid. People jump to insane conclusions based on the flimsiest of evidence. People panic at the drop of a hat.

I have acknowledged many times in the past that there are bad mages. My Surana Warden killed Caladrius and the Tevinter mages who were enslaving the Alienage elves. I have also acknowledged time and again that there are templars who were doing good things: Ser Bryant, the Lothering templars, Ser Otto, and arguably, Knight-Commander Greagoir. I would include Thrask as a man who served as a templar wasn't evil, and I wish that he wasn't killed for such an asinine quest.

However, I oppose the Chantry controlled Circles, along with the Chantry and their templars. While Finn may have no issue with the Chantry controlled Circle, I certainly do.

thats1evildude wrote...

Decimus was a person, and he was an especially stupid person who thought he could oppose the entire Templar Order by raising an army of the dead. Perhaps he was just a touch out of step with reality? 

To the point where Decimus' dialogue makes no sense? Where Grace's dialogue and actions (along with the dialogue and actions of Thrask and every single person allied with him) makes no sense with a pro-mage Hawke who helped her escape (and who publicly opposed Meredith)? If the Plot railroads Hawke to such an extent that our actions carry no weight (and where the actions of other characters make no sense, but need to happen a certain way because the Plot Dictates), then it's a serious flaw with the narrative.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I wouldn't have a problem with my apostate Hawke dying to protect as many people as he could from Meredith and the templars following her orders. If even one mage survived because of his actions, then I think it was worth it. As Varric reveals, there were "many survivors" because my apostate Hawke decided to protect the mages from the templars.

Right, who cares if half the city burns? All that matters is protecting that one mage.

Kirkwall is at risk because of Meredith. I'm certainly not going to help her murder hundreds of men, women, and children simply because you want to demonize the mages who refuse to die.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

However, that doesn't happen, because the mages simply leave Kirkwall and head elsewhere.

That didn't happen because a Pro-mage Hawke always loses. The templars are still there to keep law and order in the city, most of the mages are dead and those who survived flee.
And like I said, Pro-Mage Hawke simply prolongs the conflict, uncaring of how much damage will be done to Kirkwall in the meantime.

Hawke's entire goal was to protect as many mages as he could from Meredith and the templars following her orders, and Cullen (along with the templars who now follow his command) don't attempt to stop Hawke or his people once Meredith is defeated. And I don't see how "most" mages died if Varric even notes that, because of Hawke's actions, there were "many survivors" from the Circle of Kirkwall.

And like I said, pro-mage Hawke defends mages from a genocidal lunatic who seeks to condemn hundreds to execution for the actions of one single man.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

What's interesting about your scenario is that this is virtually what happens with the templars - Meredith takes over Kirkwall, she rules over the common people, she attempts to usurp control over the City Guard, she installs her templars in the Viscount's Keep, her death squad is killing people in broad daylight, and Leliana reveals that the Divine will likely declare an Exalted March against Kirkwall. 

No, not even close.
The Divine considers an Exalted March because of the increasing number of blood mage terrorists and abominations, not Meredith's policies who also lead to no such thing as a civil conflict in the streets of Kirkwall as would have happened had the mages defeated the templars. 

Actually, Leliana was sent to investigate the source of the unrest, but Hawke already knows what it is: the Knight-Commander turned dictator who has managed to get civilians, nobles, mages, and even her own templars to turn against her.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Kirkwall is at risk because of Meredith. I'm certainly not going to help her murder hundreds of men, women, and children simply because you want to demonize the mages who refuse to die.

Kirkwall is at risk because an Abomination turned terrorist decided for everyone that a world war was preferable to the current extablishment.

I'm not demonizing anyone. Some of the mages are fighting for their lives, yes. But Hawke either sides with the mages or with the city.
It's a bad choice but, in this situation, I'm going to protect  the people who I'm supposed to be championing even if I have to kill some so the many may live.

Hawke's entire goal was to protect as many mages as he could from Meredith and the templars following her orders, and Cullen (along with the templars who now follow his command) don't attempt to stop Hawke or his people once Meredith is defeated. And I don't see how "most" mages died if Varric even notes that, because of Hawke's actions, there were "many survivors" from the Circle of Kirkwall.

And like I said, pro-mage Hawke defends mages from a genocidal lunatic who seeks to condemn hundreds to execution for the actions of one single man.

And who cares about the non mages caught in the crossfire? Why, their lives are worthless obviously.

This is not about punishing all for the actions of one. This is about removing the cause of conflict within the city, magic, before it (Kirkwall) destroyed itself.

Actually, Leliana was sent to investigate the source of the unrest, but Hawke already knows what it is: the Knight-Commander turned dictator who has managed to get civilians, nobles, mages, and even her own templars to turn against her.

I'm sure the blood mages, terrorists and abominations had nothing to do with it.

Modifié par MisterJB, 26 février 2013 - 11:54 .

[BlueMagitek]

Also a giant Harvester in the middle of a populated city. That's probably an even greater threat. :/

[thats1evildude]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm not trying to twist your words around, but I can't dismiss what I see transpire in Dragon Age II: Decimus explicitly claims that Hawke and his moiety crew are templars, to the point where Grace addresses this very statement.
And the fact that Hawke's moiety crew is so inconsistent with the appearance of every single templar we have ever seen should address the problem with how Decimus behaves.

But Hawke's appearance is not inconsistent with that of agents of the templars, and there are plenty of bounty hunters and such who work for them.

Never forget that Hawke is himself basically a mercenary, especially in Act 1.

LobselVith8 wrote...

However, there are mages who oppose the Chantry Controlled Circle. Even a moderate like Irving will congratulate and thank the Hero of Ferelden for asking for the Circle of Ferelden to be given it's independence from the Chantry and the templars (since, as Irving notes, he could have asked for a title or riches instead); he even says that the Hero has freed the Circle from it's "shackles".

But why would be a moderate be out there? Out in this random cave in the middle of nowhere? Why should Decimus believe that Hawke is on his side when there are very good reasons to believe that Hawke is there as an agent of the Order, who are the only people that know Decimus and his escapees are in that cave?

And he technically IS there as an agent of the templars. Do not forget that the only reason you're in that cave is because Thrask asked Hawke to go there. That fact is incontrovertible.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 27 février 2013 - 12:10 .

[dragonflight288]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Also a giant Harvester in the middle of a populated city. That's probably an even greater threat. :/

There wasn't a Harvester in the middle of a populated city. Orsino turns to it in desperation, which doesn't make sense on a pro-mage Hawke, in the Gallows which is a small island separated from the city itself. The only people there are mages and templars.

[dragonflight288]

But Hawke's appearance is not inconsistent with that of agents of the templars, and there are plenty of bounty hunters and such who work for them.

Never forget that Hawke is himself basically a mercenary, especially in Act 1.

Grace specifically said they weren't templars in Act 1. She knew it at a glance. Decimus completely ignored her, deciding to attack without any logic at all.

[thats1evildude]

That does not contradict anything I said, dragonflight. I acknowledge they don't look like templars. Grace says the same thing. But they do look like they could be agents of the templars — mercenaries and the like.

As I recall, Decimus' exact words were "What do I care what shield they carry? If they challenge us, the dead shall heed the call."

That to me says that Decimus acknowledged they weren't templars, but they were there on his behalf.

And as I said above, he's actually correct. You ARE there on behalf of the templars, just not there for the reasons that Decimus thinks.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 27 février 2013 - 12:28 .

[dragonflight288]

Kirkwall is at risk because an Abomination turned terrorist decided for everyone that a world war was preferable to the current extablishment.

I'm not demonizing anyone. Some of the mages are fighting for their lives, yes. But Hawke either sides with the mages or with the city.
It's a bad choice but, in this situation, I'm going to protect the people who I'm supposed to be championing even if I have to kill some so the many may live.

Anders stated reasons were that there is no compromise. Agree with him or disagree with him, but what he said is true. There was no compromise going on. Meredith illegally had all the power in Kirkwall. It wasn't right, it wasn't supposed to be, but that's the reality. Elthina should've stepped in when Meredith started overstepping her authority by becoming defacto Viscount. Elthina should've stepped in when templars started killing non-mage civilians in broad daylight. Elthina should've stepped in LONG before things got so out of control.

When on party has all the power, they will never willingly give up their power. We see that in Tevinter where mages have all the power. The Archon who outlawed slavery was quickly assassinated. But in the Chantry, the very same abuse of power the magisters use in Tevinter is used by the Templars. The Chantry wasn't going to compromise. Elthina wasn't doing anything to help Orsino and the mages be treated as people, and the templars weren't about to give up their power. There was no compromise to be had.

Could there have been a better way? Yeah. But the templars are not innocent, Maker-fearing people. They aren't defenders of the innocent. They are murdering non-mages in death squads, seizing illegal power in the city-state, and abusing their charges and feel perfectly justified.

Their mindset and their reasons for doing what they do, are very similar, to people like Pol Pot and Hitler or Stalin. It's dictators like them that arise when people fear entire demographics simply for being part of that demographic. When mages go rogue and commit crimes, those mages should be justly treated as criminals and dealt with. But the same must also be applied to templars.

Treat everyone with respect and as individuals, and most of these problems would go away. Magic would have to be regulated in some fashion, but the templars and their mindset are so close to realities dictators and monsters of real life that I honestly can't support them.

Again, individual templars are awesome people that I genuinely respect. There are individual mages I absolutely detest. Treat mages as individuals who need to learn to respect and control their own power, and those who abuse it ought be punished. Have templars treat mages with utmost respect, don't beat mages for the crime of talking to civilians, and don't punish them for the crimes of others, and things will smooth out.

[BlueMagitek]

dragonflight288 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Also a giant Harvester in the middle of a populated city. That's probably an even greater threat. :/

There wasn't a Harvester in the middle of a populated city. Orsino turns to it in desperation, which doesn't make sense on a pro-mage Hawke, in the Gallows which is a small island separated from the city itself. The only people there are mages and templars.

My apologies.

There is a Harvester in human form that will, at the first sign of winning a battle, reveal his true form and rampage through the city.

[dragonflight288]

thats1evildude wrote...

That does not contradict anything I said, dragonflight. I acknowledge they don't look like templars. Grace says the same thing. But they do look like they could be agents of the templars — mercenaries and the like.

As I recall, Decimus' exact words were "What do I care what shield they carry? If they challenge us, the dead shall heed the call."

That to me says that Decimus acknowledged they weren't templars, but they were there on his behalf.

And as I said above, he's actually correct. You ARE there on behalf of the templars, just not there for the reasons that Decimus thinks.

Decimus specifically calls Hawke and the others templars. Being there on their behalf is one thing, which is true. You're right about it, but he specifically calls Hawke and the others templars.

[thats1evildude]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Decimus specifically calls Hawke and the others templars. Being there on their behalf is one thing, which is true. You're right about it, but he specifically calls Hawke and the others templars. 

And follows it up with the shield quote, which was my entire point. Decimus has no reason not to believe Hawke isn't an agent of the templars.

dragonflight288 wrote...

Anders stated reasons were that there is no compromise. Agree with him or disagree with him, but what he said is true. There was no compromise going on.

It's true. There can be no compromise with these mages. We should have enacted the Right of Annulment a lot sooner.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 27 février 2013 - 12:33 .

[dragonflight288]

BlueMagitek wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Also a giant Harvester in the middle of a populated city. That's probably an even greater threat. :/

There wasn't a Harvester in the middle of a populated city. Orsino turns to it in desperation, which doesn't make sense on a pro-mage Hawke, in the Gallows which is a small island separated from the city itself. The only people there are mages and templars.

My apologies.

There is a Harvester in human form that will, at the first sign of winning a battle, reveal his true form and rampage through the city.

Oh come on, Harvester's can't exist in human form! They are made from a pile of corpses and a lot of flesh put together magically and then possessed by a Fade Spirit. We learn this in Golems of Amgarrok. And once possessed, things are quite obvious. Sylvans will forever be sylvans. With Connor, Uldred or Amalia (should we allow Kitty to possess her) it's quite obvious they're possessed when talking to them.

Orsino only became a Harvester during that scene. He wasn't one before it.

[dragonflight288]

thats1evildude wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Anders stated reasons were that there is no compromise. Agree with him or disagree with him, but what he said is true. There was no compromise going on.

It's true. We should have enacted the Right of Annulment a lot sooner.

So you wish to murder hundreds of men, women and children for the high crime of existing?