462 réponses à ce sujet

[thats1evildude]

You mean hundreds of maleficarum, don't you? No, I don't have any problem killing blood mages and demon-summoners.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 27 février 2013 - 12:37 .

[BlueMagitek]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Oh come on, Harvester's can't exist in human form! They are made from a pile of corpses and a lot of flesh put together magically and then possessed by a Fade Spirit. We learn this in Golems of Amgarrok. And once possessed, things are quite obvious. Sylvans will forever be sylvans. With Connor, Uldred or Amalia (should we allow Kitty to possess her) it's quite obvious they're possessed when talking to them.

Orsino only became a Harvester during that scene. He wasn't one before it.

I'm well aware.  It was quite nightmarish, that fight.

The point is, there's a crazy person with the ability to transform into a monster that can slaughter the city if left unchecked.

[thats1evildude]

BlueMagitek wrote...

The point is, there's a crazy person with the ability to transform into a monster that can slaughter the city if left unchecked.

A phrase that, fittingly enough, describes every mage everywhere.

[BlueMagitek]

That is true, but most mages do not do that. Even Jowan, a blood mage doesn't turn into an abomination when, truly, he probably would have been better off doing so rather than be tortured for ages.

Which is why I believe the Circles to be a very fair arrangement.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Anders stated reasons were that there is no compromise. Agree with him or disagree with him, but what he said is true. There was no compromise going on. Meredith illegally had all the power in Kirkwall. It wasn't right, it wasn't supposed to be, but that's the reality. Elthina should've stepped in when Meredith started overstepping her authority by becoming defacto Viscount. Elthina should've stepped in when templars started killing non-mage civilians in broad daylight. Elthina should've stepped in LONG before things got so out of control.

Anders makes specific mention of wanting to destroy the Circle system and the Chantry and templars as a whole, not just depose Meredith.
The Circle system IS a compromise reached centuries ago between normal people and mages. The Chantry allows mages to perfect their abilities so long as they do it away from the common population and are watched by Templars.
The surest sign of a true compromise is that neither side is happy.

Treat everyone with respect and as individuals, and most of these problems would go away. Magic would have to be regulated in some fashion, but the templars and their mindset are so close to realities dictators and monsters of real life that I honestly can't support them.

Again, individual templars are awesome people that I genuinely respect. There are individual mages I absolutely detest. Treat mages as individuals who need to learn to respect and control their own power, and those who abuse it ought be punished. Have templars treat mages with utmost respect, don't beat mages for the crime of talking to civilians, and don't punish them for the crimes of others, and things will smooth out.

Except that there are extremely good reasons to fear mages as whole. Because every single one of them can turn into a monster.
The truth is that these problems will never go away. In other for there to be any sort of equality, men must be equal. This happens in our world but not in Thedas. Mundanes and mages are not born equal, they can never be so.
This is not to say that I support every single one of Meredith's measures in Kirkwall but beatings were not things that occured in Ferelden and yet a portion of the mages there still found reason to rebel.
Thedas is doomed to be engulfed in war every dozen centuries or so as mundanes and mages fight for dominance.

Modifié par MisterJB, 27 février 2013 - 12:47 .

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Could there have been a better way? Yeah. But the templars are not innocent, Maker-fearing people. They aren't defenders of the innocent. They are murdering non-mages in death squads, seizing illegal power in the city-state, and abusing their charges and feel perfectly justified.

Their mindset and their reasons for doing what they do, are very similar, to people like Pol Pot and Hitler or Stalin. It's dictators like them that arise when people fear entire demographics simply for being part of that demographic. When mages go rogue and commit crimes, those mages should be justly treated as criminals and dealt with. But the same must also be applied to templars.

I'm not defending the templars under Meredith but my main concern is protecting the people of the city and there was no way to do so in that situation other than siding with Meredith.
The end of Dragon Age 2 can go in three different ways.

1-Hawkes sides with the mages and loses. Therefore, all he did was prolong a conflict that cost even more lives.

2-Hawkes sides with the mages and win. In which case the most powerful force assuring law and order in the city has been massacred leaving hundred of extremely dangerous people on the loose with an even more rotten Veil. Groups of mages will seek to place themselves in the Viscount's seat while the mundane population of
Kirkwall will be outraged by what they will see as a carefully orchestrated plot to murder both the Grand Cleric and the Knight Commander devised by the mages. Aveline's guards will be unable to keep order, fighting will ensue and more lives will be lost. Either the mundanes will kill every single mage they can find or the mages will
reach the conclusion the only way they can live in the city is by ruling it.
If by some miracle the entirety of Kirkwall is not burned to the ground within a week, the Exalted Armies the Divine will send against it will proceed to do it anyway.

3-Hawke sides with the templars and helps them Annul the Circle. By doing so, he will resolve the conflict quickly and before the Kirkwallers have an opportunity to throw themselves at the mages and be harmed in the process thus saving a greater number of lives.

Therefore, the way I see it, DA2's final choice is not between Meredith and Orsino but between saving the mages or saving the city.
In such a case, I must side with the city.

Modifié par MisterJB, 27 février 2013 - 01:01 .

[Hazegurl]

LobselVith8 wrote...


I don't see why people vilify blood magic.

Because most of the users turn out bat shyt crazy and usually end up killing their friends and families as we have seen in game. The blood magics you mentions are minor and doesn't involve conversing with demons and allowing possession. As for Mage Wardens who use it, I'm sure that once they turn into abominations and attack the wardens have no issue putting them down. 

Templars have the power to nulify ordinary magic - meaning they can shut down a mage's powers, leaving the mage defenseless. Imagine rapists like Kerras and Alrik having the power to shut down your powers. Imagine that you're also from a Circle of Magi where your people are being made tranquil illegally, and none of the other templars are doing anything to stop it. It's a frightening thought. It's also noted that some apostates turn to blood magic to defend themselves against the templars (who threaten their humanity and their lives), and Hawke can turn to blood magic for the same reason.

I agree that those Templars should have been weeded out and kicked from the order and thrown in prison. But that doesn't excuse Mages for running amok and killing innocents when their powers have gotten out of control. The fact remains is that Templars are needed to keep mages in check. It's just that the circle itself was too restrict and needed to form a compromise. oth sides were unwilling to do so. As for Hawke using blood magic, that is more for gameplay sake as he continues to speak out in disgust over blood mages. I just finished a mage Hawke playthrough with blood mage and he sounded like a hypocrite talking about other blood mages when he had blood mages activated lol!

Like the lore reads: "The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn't limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it's tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons."

I don't know how much I can buy into the lore considering that most of the time you get it by doing a favor for a demon.

Mages were being beaten and whipped in the Circle of Kirkwall. Some mages, like Anders' first love Karl, were being made tranquil illegally, and nobody was doing anything about it. If my people were being tortured by the military arm of the nation's religion and having their humanity taken from them, I would complain, too.

Sure they have a right to complain and a right to do something about it. They do not have a right to run around killing innocent people cause they bit off more than they can chew with their powers.  The way I see it. If I were to use real life examples. Martin Luther King Jr vs. The black panther party. Both wanted rights for their people. Both went about it two completely different ways. Who got better results although they struggled harder? King. While the other group chose the easy way out. Guns. are they justified in arming themselves? In some ways yes. But they still endangered more lives doing it. Mages quickly armed themselves with the worst weapons they could find and used them to do more harm to innocent people than their own captors. Meredeith was right when she called them stupid. 

I also remember Decimus claiming that my apostate Hawke and Merrill were templars. I remember Grace trying to exact revenge because my apostate Hawke helped her escape the templars. I don't see how insane and stupid mages are much of an argument against mages in general.

Not saying all mages are stupid. Just the idiots allowing themselves to be possessed by demons and expect to live.

Mages see your Champion as a symbol of oppression. Yeah, I've seen the pro-templar ending. I also know that people remember Anders years later, based on Asunder.

I just finished a pro mage ending. Personally, not impressed that my mage Hawke sided with mages then had to fight mages and their twisted abominations in the street cause they can't tell friend from foe. big deal that they see him as a symbol of oppression. My warrior Hawke tried to be as fair as possible, even saving mages he could. Meanwhile, mostly allt he mages die siding with the mages and the Elf mage still resorts to blood magic and becomes a twisted abomination....and then attacks his allies. As for Asunder, if it didn't happen ingame it didn't happen. never read the book so it isn't a part of my DA story. If they mention his martyerdom in DA3 then okay.

You spared three mages, who will likely be made tranquil, and helped Meredith murder hundreds of men, women, and children because you encountered a few criminals outside the Circle of Kirkwall who abused their powers.

Anders chose to kill all those men, women, and children by forcing them to be martyers against their will. He forced Meredieth's hand and the champion if he/she has been taking a neutral stance to resolve the matter peacefully. Which is what I was trying to do. But he resorted to terrorism for his own gain and condemned the mages to death. But it's Hawke's fault for siding with the Templars to restore order? That's rich.

I can never see an act of genocide as a good choice.

Only if its mages. I guess it's okay to to kill dozens of Templars for doing their jobs along with leaving hundreds of men, women, and children in Kirkwall to be torn apart by demons in the streets.  As long as the mages are safe. i guess.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 27 février 2013 - 01:01 .

[Hazegurl]

thats1evildude wrote...

Meredith saw rightly that the Circle was corrupted beyond redemption well before Anders destroyed the Chantry. Had Elthina allowed her to act sooner, perhaps her death could have been avoided. A pity.

Right, the circle was gone by that time and was pretty much corrupt before she took over.  That is why I saw siding with the Templars as a means to clean out the place once and for all. You can't learn blood magic in the heat of battle. The mages using it were doing that for a while and the reason Orsino didn't want Meredith to inspect their rooms is because he was harboring blood mages. Simple as that. What gets me the most is that it sort of seems like Hawke could have resolved the issue until Mr. Anders the abonimation enters the stage and blows up the chantry.

[TEWR]

Because Meredith's only expressed reason for declaring the Right of Annulment - and the only reason she gives in her attempts to persuade the Champion to her side - is that the mob will demand blood. That's it. That's the given reason for the Right of Annulment against the mages of Kirkwall.

It should be noted that Hawke gives the same reason. Meredith's trying to annul the Circle because of a hypothetical mob in an attempt to "keep order", and Hawke gives quite the same reason.

Bah, anyone that things Meredith was in the right is wrong. The Templars' duty is to protect mundanes from Mages and Mages from mundanes. If a mob was to form -- and it never does -- her duty was to collect the Templars and Mages, lock down the Gallows, and instruct the City Guard and Champion to keep the mundanes under control.

All while ensuring a public execution of Anders, or at least making mention to the public of who the true criminal was.

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Because Meredith's only expressed reason for declaring the Right of Annulment - and the only reason she gives in her attempts to persuade the Champion to her side - is that the mob will demand blood. That's it. That's the given reason for the Right of Annulment against the mages of Kirkwall.

It should be noted that Hawke gives the same reason. Meredith's trying to annul the Circle because of a hypothetical mob in an attempt to "keep order", and Hawke gives quite the same reason.

Bah, anyone that things Meredith was in the right is wrong. The Templars' duty is to protect mundanes from Mages and Mages from mundanes. If a mob was to form -- and it never does -- her duty was to collect the Templars and Mages, lock down the Gallows, and instruct the City Guard and Champion to keep the mundanes under control.

All while ensuring a public execution of Anders, or at least making mention to the public of who the true criminal was.

While I agree with you, you are wasting bandwidth with some of the people posting on this thread.  It is clear that some of them have been tricked/goaded into making an emotional judgement against the mages based on incomplete and wrong information.  I say tricked because the Devs have admitted that they deliberately painted mages in the worst possible light (hurr, hurr, we are all insane bloodmages) and did so in a deliberate attempt to get more people to side with the Templars.  Same goes for the Orisino boss battle.  Once a person makes an emotional leap to judgement, it is almost impossible to change that person's mind, and almost never will rational arguments suffice.

I would recommend not bothering in this case.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

Is it really so hard to believe that Quentin learned a way to create a theoretical Harvester ritual as a by-product of his experiments?

His research was entirely focused on necromancy. What is a Harvester, if not a larger, uglier version of the Frankenstein's bride that he turned Leandra into? They're both undead monstrosities given form by blood magic.

Yes. Because one of the things the Circle teaches Mages is that summoning a Demon into dead corpses doesn't do anything other then give the Demon a dead meatsuit to waltz around it. It has absolutely nothing to do with necromancy.

 

Further to that point, I should note that his research was being supported by Orsino. The senior enchanter wanted Quentin to give him a weapon for use against Meredith; it isn't a stretch that he developed the Harvester ritual in exchange for that support while he was working on creating a simulacrum of his dead wife.

No. There is absolutely zero proof that Orsino supported Quentin's research so he could get a weapon, considering in both endings before he offs himself -- where he has nothing left to lose, so telling the truth is not a big deal anymore -- he says he set it aside.

All that's known is that Quentin's research into necromancy was supported by Orsino, to the point where Orsino gave the man what books he could find on the subject.

That's it. There is nothing to suggest his reason for supporting the man is because he wanted a weapon. Besides, even if he did he'd probably want a weapon he could control and that didn't necessitate his death.

What we know is that necromancy is considered impossible in the sense of reversing a person's death. Orsino's note to Quentin suggests that Quentin's notes on necromancy were far more benign and far more misleading then what he was actually doing, and that Orsino believed he was actually discovering a method of truly reversing death.

Quentin didn't, of course, and his methods are to us the players-in-the-know obviously not capable of working.

And then when he was sent the notes on the Harvester ritual, he realized just how broken Quentin's mind was and ceased all contact, throwing aside all the notes Quentin had sent him. But he could not go to the Templars with what he knew because time and time again the Templars had shown themselves to punish all Mages for the actions of the few. Worse still, they could cite his involvement with Quentin as evidence of the Circle's corruption and would ignore the fact that he came forward with the information.

The man was caught between a rock and a hard place. No matter what he does, he loses. No matter what he does, people suffer.

If he had hid the information from Gregoir, things would be different. Gregoir is not unreasonable. But this is Meredith we're talking about.

In the end, I can see him justified for what he did. People died, yes. And that's unfortunate. But this goes into the whole "one life to save one thousand" question. The perception of such a concept becomes a bit skewed because of the personal connection to Hawke (Leandra) but it's no less true.

And besides, the Templars are more at fault for why Quentin went as far as he did then Orsino is.

 

I should note that the ritual doesn't necessarily require the caster as its focus. That's how Orsino used it, because he was suicidal in both versions of the ending.

Fair enough, but then two things to consider:

1) He would not have even used the Harvester ritual had Meredith not called for an unjust RoA or had at least accepted Orsino's offer of cooperation. Pushing Mages into desperate acts and then using that as justification for your own crimes -- that push said Mages into said acts -- is unfair and is not a logical method to go. No court would accept "I knew he'd do X eventually, so I bullied him until he did X thus proving me right".

2) Praytell explain how Quentin still managed to defeat the Harvester he created without using his own body. The Harvester was capable of killing a Tevinter Magister, Tevinter soldiers, and Dwarven soldiers, so how could an insane blood mage who is nowhere near as skilled as the aforementioned people kill something like the Harvester? 

Well, assuming that he actually did create a Harvester, the key difference is that he would have controlled it, unlike those poor bastards in Amgarrak.

Except it's not controllable. And if it is controllable (unlikely) then I'd really like to know how a Tevinter Magister was incapable of controlling a dead construct when Tevinter routinely controls corpses, Revenants, and Arcane Horrors but some insane Blood Mage with less access to arcane notes is capable of doing it. Tevinter's built on having an extensive library devoted to the arcane arts. Anything outside of Tevinter is lucky to have the core essentials of magic coupled with a few rare volumes.

But why would he need to have created a Harvester? He could have simply figured out the ritual. Orsino's use of it could literally have been the first time it was ever used.

If you accept that Quentin could have theoretically created the ritual and then provided notes to Orsino on how it could be performed, then why does it HAVE to have been done once before?

Because I don't think saying "Theoretically, you can do X with blood magic" and saying "Here's all the notes" are going to jive together. If you have notes, you've done research. If you've done research and sent your findings to someone else, you've field tested. 

By-product of his research. Like I said, the Harvester is not all that different from Leandra — they're both flesh golems. The main distinction is that the Harvester is a weapon.

Lots of important discoveries are made in the course of other research. Take penicillin, for example.

Except they are different. Leandra was an amalgam of different body parts sewn together, with a blood magic spell keeping her soul attached to her Frankenstein body.

The Harvester is a Golem made from the entire corpses of multiple dead people, possessed by a Demon from the Fade. Or alternatively, summoning a Demon into a collection of corpses that transmutes the flesh into the Harvester form -- and if the caster's the focal point, he's dead.

A lot of differences are at work. Leandra has a specific spell keeping her soul in Thedas, while the Harvester is simply a Demon in a crapton of corpses.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 février 2013 - 05:51 .

[TEWR]

I don't know how much I can buy into the lore considering that most of the time you get it by doing a favor for a demon.

All forms of magic are eternally remembered in the Fade. Torpor remarks on the rarity of seeing two forgotten magicks. Blood magic isn't tied to Demons, but Demons are the easiest avenue to learn about it. Books about the subject were banned and burned by the Chantry, but some still exist. That's how Jowan learned about Blood Magic.

Indeed, the Warden-Commander Mage can ask the Baroness to teach him blood magic, when he's still laboring under the assumption that the Baroness is simply a Mage. This wouldn't be a possible request if it wasn't possible for a Mage to teach another Mage blood magic.

Furthermore, Uldred taught Mages blood magic, or at least led some of them to it. Some he left in the Circle to operate under his care, but others still he would sacrifice to the Templars to raise his own standing in the Circle and hide his own status as a maleficar.

Essentially, Demons can recall blood magic's fundamentals and are the easiest way to learn it. But it's not tied to them for anything. A few blood magic spells affect the Fade, but that's from practicing particular spells and it's not applicable to the school itself -- as opposed to all the other schools of Magic, which require the Fade and mana to power.

Indeed, blood magic is not inherently evil.

The Joining is blood magic, the Reaver Joining is blood magic, Merrill cleansed the Eluvian shard of the Taint by using blood magic to amplify Dalish healing magic Marethari taught her which was proven to combat the taint in its unamplified state, Avernus used blood magic on his own body to keep the Taint from destroying him body and mind, blood magic can heal wounds, and it can even heal withered crops.

As for Asunder, if it didn't happen ingame it didn't happen. never read the book so it isn't a part of my DA story. If they mention his martyerdom in DA3 then okay.

Um, no, you can't just disregard the entire story because "Well, it's not a GAME". It happened. The story told requires certain parameters to be met -- Wynne and Shale being alive in DAO -- but it's no less canon when it talks about Anders and the Kirkwall incident.

Only if its mages. I guess it's okay to to kill dozens of Templars for doing their jobs along with leaving hundreds of men, women, and children in Kirkwall to be torn apart by demons in the streets.  As long as the mages are safe. i guess.

I guess it's okay for the Chantry to murder Qunari, both converts and trueborn believers, and cause a war. I guess it's also okay for how they did the same thing immediately after the New Exalted Marches ended, killing any converts to the religion when "returning them to the Maker" failed. And then denying the events ever happened.

Bah, if you want to say the Templars are doing their job, it'd help if you had an in-game moment of where they actually did their job. Even when the occasional lone Templar tries to do their job -- Emeric -- his superiors deny his requests and evidence and just focus on the boogeymen they see in the Gallows.

And it should be noted that Varric will say to a Diplomatic personality Hawke -- when you tell him you're nervous -- that what you're doing is a "heroic sacrifice for the good of Kirkwall". 

IanPolaris wrote...

I would recommend not bothering in this case.

Indeed, I think I'm done on the topic.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 février 2013 - 05:57 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
How is it fanfiction?
You really abuse that word like there's no tomorrow.

Because Meredith's only expressed reason for declaring the Right of Annulment - and the only reason she gives in her attempts to persuade the Champion to her side - is that the mob will demand blood. That's it. That's the given reason for the Right of Annulment against the mages of Kirkwall.

And I say again - that is HER reason. Not Hawke's. And I'm playing Hawke. Not her.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
The game does provide plenty of reasons. Every player makes his own decisions. Everyone Hawk has is own line of reasoning- regardless if the game explicitly acknowledges it or not.
In this specific case, some characters in the game thought the Circle was beyond saving. That is a valid reason. My Hawke agreed and saw Anderes little act of terror as an opportunity to end the madness in Kirkwall.

You thought a Circle of Kirkwall full of hundreds of people you've never even met before were beyond saving?

Given the state of the city and the numbr of mage-related incidents, i'ts not suprising one can come to such a conclusion.
Heck, you saw what ahppened in Ferelden Circle and it was 100 times more peacefull.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I don't care if the request was denied earlier or not. Why should I? Then is then, now is now.

Because it questions the validity of whether the Circle of Kirkwall deserved to be annuled when the request was already denied, at a time when Meredith was having a reign of terror on the city-state of Kirkwall as the self-imposed ruler of it's people.

Validity? What validity?
The request being denied by Elthian does not make her decision correct (or wrong). It is just her assesment and oppinion. Which - again - happened BEFORE.
If asked again, would Elthina make the same decision? I dunno. Neither do you.

That's precisely why I oppose Meredith, and kill every templar in my path to protect the hundreds who are innocent of Anders' actions.

Kill 1000 and endanger ten thousands to save 100? Good for you.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Then condemn Orsino, not the hundreds of people who weren't responsible for his actions.

I am condeming him.
But I am also condeming the mages for all the blood mage activity.
It's impossible for so many blood mages to run rampant - most of them from the Circle - and no one knowing. It seems to me Orsino did a poor job of runnign the circle nad the mages did a even worse job of policing their own.

LobselVith8 wrote...
We know that animals, trees, and ordinary people can become possessed. We can even speak to a Poet Tree. And Meredith seemed to be possessed by the idol, since it's said by Cullen that she was having conversations with someone who simply wasn't there.

So?
That's still not even close to mage possesion - neither in frequency nor in power.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
And once possessed, things are quite obvious. Sylvans will forever be sylvans. With Connor, Uldred or Amalia (should we allow Kitty to possess her) it's quite obvious they're possessed when talking to them.

Not true. Powerfull abominations can hide their presence.
Uldred in the begining sounded normal. Or what about the Baroness?

[Harbinger]

I have to say, that Kirkwall is not the best example for either Mages nor Templars in certain circumstances... Reading the band of three codexes and the notes in Legacy dlc gives you a hint why things are always so messed up there. The veil is especially thin there and it's not a wonder why Anders and Meredith both took extreme measures to promote their ideological beliefs. (Other than the influences of Justice and the idol.)

From another point of view, looking outside of Kirkwall, there are plenty of apostates in several regions that seem to have little to no problems with being mages. They don't seem to turn into abominations nor summon demons quite as often as people within the circle, so far in the series. Morrigan had made comment on this in party banter with Alistair when he attacked her for being an apostate, she had brought up that her and Flemeth's lives were perfectly normal and not filled with the stuff seen in the Broken Circle quest.

The templars are not exactly models of valor and honor nor pillars of the community. There are many abuses of power within the ranks which is mentioned by a few characters in DA2 and implied in a few places. The abuses seem mostly to be templars threatening mages to coerce them into sexual acts in the exchange of their lives/freedoms/etc. Then you have certain templars going rouge and taken things into their own hands where they force many mages to become tranquil even against chantry rules.

This would be excluding other clear problems that were outlined in both Origins and II. Namely things like the chantry and lyrium, which the templars get addicted to. They force this addiction and then they do not offer the social support to get them off of it, or even to manage it? Either way the chantry controls the lyrium trade and while mages tend to take it, they don't seem to have quite the same addiction problems templars have....

From what I have seen the more and more they try to control the natural phenomena; that of elves and humans being born mages, the more and more it turns into chaos for everyone. Nature will simply win out in this case, or I assume. I have not seen much good come from housing a bunch of adults who were taking away from their parents at a young age in a tower, locked away with books, and never going outside or you know, actually given the chance to have a life. It seems to do more harm. Since many of the people of the circle don't have real world experience, I can see them resorting to demons as the easiest and most effective way at gaining some power over their templar oppressors. They don't have the experience, know how, etc required to know all the ramifications of their actions. Even concerning blood magic, since that stuff is pretty much banned by the chantry. (Just like that book that speculated that Andraste may have been a mage was recovered with burn marks in Orzammar, of all places. There seems to be many things the chantry keeps from people and especially mages.) Perhaps the demons only offer the basics of blood magic.... You can't expect them to have the knowledge the elves once did, after all.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

While I agree with you, you are wasting bandwidth with some of the people posting on this thread.  It is clear that some of them have been tricked/goaded into making an emotional judgement against the mages based on incomplete and wrong information.  I say tricked because the Devs have admitted that they deliberately painted mages in the worst possible light (hurr, hurr, we are all insane bloodmages) and did so in a deliberate attempt to get more people to side with the Templars.  Same goes for the Orisino boss battle.  Once a person makes an emotional leap to judgement, it is almost impossible to change that person's mind, and almost never will rational arguments suffice.

I would recommend not bothering in this case.

It is clear you have been tricked/goaded into making an emotional judgment against the templars based on compeltely wrong information.

You're perefctly fine with crazy evil templars, but crazy evil mages? Oh noes, that is a smokescreen to trick us into hating mages.
Why do you think they wanted more poeple to side with the templars to begin with?

Not worth bothering indeed.....

[TEWR]

That's still not even close to mage possesion - neither in frequency nor in power.

Power's arguable, as no Mage is capable of creating an army of Golems so easily. We do know those statues were made to be makeshift Golems, per an out-game source of lore.

Meredith was able to either bypass the necessary soul requirement for Golems or the lyrium idol is a collection of souls -- which Bartrand's comments on how it needs to be "fed" support.

And there is indeed something within the idol. Meredith's talking to someone when she's alone, Bartrand did the same thing, and Bartrand comments on the idol speaking to him and singing to him.

It's a different sort of possession, but it's still possession.

[Harbinger]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

That's still not even close to mage possesion - neither in frequency nor in power.

Power's arguable, as no Mage is capable of creating an army of Golems so easily. We do know those statues were made to be makeshift Golems, per an out-game source of lore.

Meredith was able to either bypass the necessary soul requirement for Golems or the lyrium idol is a collection of souls -- which Bartrand's comments on how it needs to be "fed" support.

And there is indeed something within the idol. Meredith's talking to someone when she's alone, Bartrand did the same thing, and Bartrand comments on the idol speaking to him and singing to him.

It's a different sort of possession, but it's still possession.

Apparently, some of the ancient tech had greater abilities than most mages do. A lot of that stuff in II is very reminicent of the Golems of Amgarrak dlc in Origins. Even the Harvester is a boss in it. It must be pretty powerful to possess not only a dwarf who is a bit magic resisitent, but also someone who is not a mage. Given that enchantment can only be done by tranquil and dwarves... Golems were also created by somehow putting a spirit into a rock body by non-magic users. The more fusion of magic and technology I've seen the worse it is and it's not a wonder why these things were abandoned. (Maybe they got their knowledge from the elves that lived in the thaigs with them in ancient times?) I guess I am rambling a bit tho. 

[Hazegurl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

All forms of magic are eternally remembered in the Fade. Torpor remarks on the rarity of seeing two forgotten magicks. Blood magic isn't tied to Demons, but Demons are the easiest avenue to learn about it. Books about the subject were banned and burned by the Chantry, but some still exist. That's how Jowan learned about Blood Magic.

Indeed, the Warden-Commander Mage can ask the Baroness to teach him blood magic, when he's still laboring under the assumption that the Baroness is simply a Mage. This wouldn't be a possible request if it wasn't possible for a Mage to teach another Mage blood magic.

Furthermore, Uldred taught Mages blood magic, or at least led some of them to it. Some he left in the Circle to operate under his care, but others still he would sacrifice to the Templars to raise his own standing in the Circle and hide his own status as a maleficar.

Essentially, Demons can recall blood magic's fundamentals and are the easiest way to learn it. But it's not tied to them for anything. A few blood magic spells affect the Fade, but that's from practicing particular spells and it's not applicable to the school itself -- as opposed to all the other schools of Magic, which require the Fade and mana to power.

Indeed, blood magic is not inherently evil.

The Joining is blood magic, the Reaver Joining is blood magic, Merrill cleansed the Eluvian shard of the Taint by using blood magic to amplify Dalish healing magic Marethari taught her which was proven to combat the taint in its unamplified state, Avernus used blood magic on his own body to keep the Taint from destroying him body and mind, blood magic can heal wounds, and it can even heal withered crops.

I get your point. You're right, Blood magic can be learned through other means and I wouldn't say blood magic itself is evil but it is a gateway into crossing the line and performing the most henious acts imaginable. Just listen to Fenris's account of what happened in Tenvintar. Blood magic may not be truley evil, but it is a dark tool, period. The Joining is a taint that slowly kills and links you to darkspawn forever, you gain reaver in origins by poisoning sacred ashes, and Merrill thought demons were her BFF. On top of that. Most of the users turned out insane and murdered their families, and loved ones. Of course there are those who can control themselves. Such as Hawke and the Warden Mage. But if you look at it from the warden mage perspective. You had to get it by allowing a little boy to be possessed by a demon.

Um, no, you can't just disregard the entire story because "Well, it's not a GAME". It happened. The story told requires certain parameters to be met -- Wynne and Shale being alive in DAO -- but it's no less canon when it talks about Anders and the Kirkwall incident.

Um, yes, I can. The same way I can disregard any choices my Hawke didn't make during the game. If my Hawke didn't do it, it never happened. Simple as that. I'm not going to pretend some book I've never read matters to my Hawke's story. In YOUR Hawke's story it matters. Not mine. That will change if mentioned in DA3.

I guess it's okay for the Chantry to murder Qunari, both converts and trueborn believers, and cause a war. I guess it's also okay for how they did the same thing immediately after the New Exalted Marches ended, killing any converts to the religion when "returning them to the Maker" failed. And then denying the events ever happened.

Bah, if you want to say the Templars are doing their job, it'd help if you had an in-game moment of where they actually did their job. Even when the occasional lone Templar tries to do their job -- Emeric -- his superiors deny his requests and evidence and just focus on the boogeymen they see in the Gallows.

And it should be noted that Varric will say to a Diplomatic personality Hawke -- when you tell him you're nervous -- that what you're doing is a "heroic sacrifice for the good of Kirkwall".

What does any of that have to do with blood mages running the streets with their demons and killing anyone in their way? Who said it was okay for the Chantry to murder the Qunari? I sure didn't. Sounds like you're pulling out random excuses to justify everything the mages have done. Running the streets with demons is not what's best for Kirkwall and perhaps in your story Varric said that to you. But in my siding with mages story he didn't seem 100% onboard but still on Hawke's side. And even if he was 100% onboard with the mages, it is just his opinion. My Hawke can think for himself.  The fact remains, is that siding with the Templars places Hawke in a position where he can make real changes which fit with my warrior Hawke perfectly as he wanted to make a real difference in Kirkwall. The Gallows needed to be changed and the purpose of the Templars needed to be changed. Not eradicated completely. My warrior Hawke was doing what was best for the city regardless of whether Varric or anyone else agreed or not.

The chaos ensuing from the mages rebellion hurts more people than it saves. Kirkwall is left with no Viscount and blood mages are roaming free. What will happen when more mage children are born to this hot mess and they begin to get plagued by demons and nightmares? Who will they turn to in the future for help?

Modifié par Hazegurl, 27 février 2013 - 11:00 .

[Harbinger]

^I'm not sure if you can save Kirkwall from itself. Even looking past the templars vs mages, with out them, there is still a lot of chaos and problems in Kirkwall. Refugees, people resorting crime, rampant poverty, rampant fugutives....

Modifié par Harbinger, 27 février 2013 - 11:07 .

[Hazegurl]

Harbinger wrote...

I have to say, that Kirkwall is not the best example for either Mages nor Templars in certain circumstances...

From another point of view, looking outside of Kirkwall, there are plenty of apostates in several regions that seem to have little to no problems with being mages. They don't seem to turn into abominations nor summon demons quite as often as people within the circle, so far in the series. Morrigan had made comment on this in party banter with Alistair when he attacked her for being an apostate, she had brought up that her and Flemeth's lives were perfectly normal and not filled with the stuff seen in the Broken Circle quest.

I agree with the top part of your post. Kirkwall had serious issues and neither party was shown in the best light. That is why I turned proMage to Neutral during my game play. That place had problems that kept getting stacked on as the years progressed. As for Morrigan and Flemeth. I disagree with her comment. This is the same mother/daughter team plotting to kill each other. Flemeth has daughters and then kill them for their youth. Morrigan asks you to kill her mother for her. I wouldn't call them abominations, but they are hardly the perfect example for mages. Bethany on the other hand is a great example of  a mage living outside the circle with a loving family. She is the proof that the circle is not completely needed.

The templars are not exactly models of valor and honor nor pillars of the community.

I agree completely. The chantry failed the mages in Kirkwall by not policing the Templars and sadly many turned to blood magic as a result. My point, is that it still doesn't justify nor excuse the crimes committed by the mages. They still had to be stopped at the end and order needed to be restored for there to be any hope of true changes happening. The role of the circle needed to be changed, period. But the circle(if repurposed) is still very much needed to teach struggling young mages like that half elf boy how to control their power.

I also agree that Templars needed some sort of support system in place for their addictions.

[Hazegurl]

Harbinger wrote...

^I'm not sure if you can save Kirkwall from itself. Even looking past the templars vs mages, with out them, there is still a lot of chaos and problems in Kirkwall. Refugees, people resorting crime, rampant poverty, rampant fugutives....

True. Kirkwall was just a horrible place to live that had many problems stacking on top of the rest. The Mage vs. Templar deal was just another added problem to the city. Personally, I think most of those refugees should have been sent home once the Blight ended. Alistair was more than willing to take them back. But then again he had his own problems to deal with.
I can't fault my Hawke for wanting to make some sort of difference in that rat hole city. 

[Harbinger]

Hazegurl wrote...



I agree completely. The chantry failed the mages in Kirkwall by not policing the Templars and sadly many turned to blood magic as a result. My point, is that it still doesn't justify nor excuse the crimes committed by the mages. They still had to be stopped at the end and order needed to be restored for there to be any hope of true changes happening. The role of the circle needed to be changed, period. But the circle(if repurposed) is still very much needed to teach struggling young mages like that half elf boy how to control their power.

I also agree that Templars needed some sort of support system in place for their addictions.

Yeah, that's pretty much it. The chantry needs reform on several levels, even outside of mages, and the circle is in great need of reform. Perhaps turned into a school for mages, much like our modern public schools? The mages in the game really ticked me off towards the end, as I was pro-mage and saved a few of them who turned on me. (Talk about biting the hand that feeds.)

Bethany is a better example, I suppose. I confess I have not played the game with her in it, yet. That's pretty much why I didn't use her as an example.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
It should be noted that Hawke gives the same reason. Meredith's trying to annul the Circle because of a hypothetical mob in an attempt to "keep order", and Hawke gives quite the same reason.

Bah, anyone that things Meredith was in the right is wrong. The Templars' duty is to protect mundanes from Mages and Mages from mundanes. If a mob was to form -- and it never does -- her duty was to collect the Templars and Mages, lock down the Gallows, and instruct the City Guard and Champion to keep the mundanes under control.

All while ensuring a public execution of Anders, or at least making mention to the public of who the true criminal was.

I agree. But sadly, that is not the choice given to Hawke. The choice is destroy the city to save the mages or destroy the mages to save the city.