[quote]thats1evildude wrote...
I'm not really sure what is your point here. Necromancy in Dragon Age is, as far as I can tell, simply the art of learning how to raise the dead. That means working with demons. Quentin employed a legion of them. Why is that a problem?
I'm not sure where you get the idea that the Harvester requires the implanting of a demon. From what I understand, it just needs a soul, and a Fade spirit works equally well.[/quote]
David Gaider confirmed that it's essentially the bonding of a Fade spirit -- and a Fade spirit only -- to a construct of flesh or an assortment of corpses transmutated into such a construct.
And necromancy is considered in DA to have two meanings, I believe. The first is "necromancy" in the sense of profaning the dead and making Demonic corpse slaves. The second is the idea of actually
bringing a person back to life, something the Cardinal Rules of Magic deems impossible.
Quentin was devoted to the latter, not the former.
And Quentin employed a legion of Demons as protection for his goals, not source material for his goals.
[quote]
It's a reasonable assumption based on the evidence, given that Orsino actually conjured the Harvester destroy Meredith. (In other words, as a weapon.)[/quote]
Out of desperation or insanity, after he had tossed aside the notes on the ritual when Quentin said "Hey man! Look at what I found out! Isn't this sick?!" and Orsino went "Yeah... it sure as hell is sick you deranged little man."
[quote]Why else would he help Quentin in the first place? Pure academic curiosity? If that's the case, then Orsino is an even greater monster than I realized, given that he was apparently willing to sacrifice innocent vicitims in the name of magical research.[/quote]
Oh please. Near as I can tell, Orsino was led to believe Quentin was going to engage in arcane research in an attempt to disprove the Cardinal Rule of Magic on resurrection.
That does not mean he knew Quentin was going to be using living people to generate results with callous disregard. Given how he states that he didn't know the extent of Quentin's derangement until he was sent the notes on the Harvester ritual, it's clear he didn't know what Quentin's actual methods were. And the results he got prior to said ritual were misleading, making him think Quentin was getting actual results.
[quote]
The Harvester can be controlled in the same way as chemical warfare. You can't tell white phosphorus who it should burn and who it shouldn't, but you can still direct where you aim it.[/quote]
That's not an applicable comparison, given how in two instances of seeing a Harvester we've seen it go on a mad rampage.
Occam's Razor is in play here.
[quote]
Odd that he was apparently repulsed by what Quentin had done, but couldn't bring himself to actually
destroy the notes and such that Quentin provided him. If it was actually his goal to hide Quentin's existence from the templars, that would have been the smart thing to do.[/quote]
I'd argue that "toss aside" is a tad ambiguous on whether the notes were just stuffed under a floorboard or if he burned them. Certainly, Orsino is capable of conjuring fire magic given how we see him take on the Qunari all on his own like a boss, if Hawke supports a distraction.
I mean, we don't see him looking over any notes when he does the ritual, and no one ever mentioned him going back to his office to retrieve something.
That's why I lean towards also giving him an eidetic memory that served him well as a Mage until that point, wherein he was incapable of forgetting such a thing.
I have to make some sense out of Bioware's mess, after all.
[quote]Given that Orsino's main consideration was keeping the templars from discovering Quentin, what's even odder is that Orsino never once considered the possibility of killing Quentin and dumping him in a sewer.[/quote]
Actually, I've brought up before how his presence in Hightown with a contingent of Mages suggests he was attempting to do such a thing in secret. We know from common sense that his presence in Hightown occurred before the Qunari assaulted the city, as it'd be impossible for him to make it to Hightown after the Qunari attacked.
[quote]TEWR wrote....
And his presence in Kirkwall leads me to believe he wanted to put an end to Quentin and was unaware Hawke already did that. His original reason for there is never explained, as he was caught in the crossfire of the Qunari assault and that changed what he was going to do there.[/quote]
[quote]TEWR wrote...
His purpose changed when the Qunari assaulted the city at night.
What you're saying would be applicable if he showed up after the assault on the city begun. But he's seen during the assault, indicating that he and his mages were there for other reasons unrelated to the Qunari assault.
Being caught in the crossfire doesn't mean that was their original reason for being there. Their reason for being there in the first place is never given, so we're free to assume what their original intent was until it ended up changing to suit the needs of the current crisis: the Qunari assault on Kirkwall.
As the Qunari attacked the city at night and the Qunari assault began in the Docks -- and Orsino's group was in Hightown during the night -- they were there before the Qunari began their assault.
Unless you care to explain how the Mages manage to get to Hightown from the Gallows before Hawke and company, when Hawke and company had a headstart because they were on the Docks and fled to Lowtown.[/quote]
Given how Meredith actually is surprised to see Orsino, it's clear even she didn't know he was in the city. I highly doubt she would've left Orsino on his own with his own band of Mages, and we never see any Templars near his little group.
So as Orsino's original reason for taking a group of Mages -- Bethany possibly among them -- is never given, we can assume that he wanted to take down Quentin on his own in secret, but was unaware Hawke had actually done such a thing.
[quote]
I can appreciate that he felt threatened by to combat Meredith with, but supporting an insane mage who killed innocent women? Hiding that fact from your greatest supporter?[/quote]
Well, failing to tell Hawke is both a good and a bad thing. It depends on how Hawke would've reacted and how Orsino would've told it.
Would you tell the only person in all of Kirkwall that's supporting you that you knew about the man that murdered his mother? Even if you apologized many times over, you have no guarantee that you won't still lose the support of this person.
[quote]
But he commissioned it in the first place. He was a willing accomplice to Quentin's depravities.[/quote]
Given how he actually does not like blood magic -- labeling it dark arts -- and tells Hawke to deal with the Mages of BSC if they perform sinister magic, then I'd say his views on blood magic leans towards "It's bad to use, but there's no harm in being an academic blood mage and studying it to help studies elsewhere."
And Orsino was an academic blood mage until Meredith forced him to become a practicing blood mage. Adralla, a former Tevinter Magister, was an academic blood mage and her research helped come up with countermeasures to mind control and demonic possession. It's logical to assume that Orsino wanted to use an academic study of blood magic to find a method to reverse death.
But since he is in a Circle and the mere possession of anything related to blood magic results in Tranquility, Quentin was his best bet. So he supported his research into resurrection, because Quentin was his old friend. Being given notes suggesting Quentin was making strides with his research, he brought him what books the Circle had on the subject to assist him further. It wasn't until Quentin showed his true colors as a madman that Orsino put aside the entire venture.
The fact that Kirkwall's Circle even had such books in the first place is a condemnation on the Chantry and Templars. They say such things shouldn't exist in the Circle, but put them there anyway.
[quote]
Aside from the fact that there's no guarantee he actually did create a Harvester, Quentin had a far better grasp of what he was actually doing than those fools in Amgarrak.[/quote]
I don't think an insane Mage is going to have a better grasp on anything.
[quote]Have you read those notes? It took them totally by surprise.
From the Codex on Ancient Writings:
"A breakthrough! Nereda bound a
Fade spirit to a construct of flesh and bone, and it moved! We'll have something concrete to show to the nobles and the
Shaperate, once we put it back together. Someone must have overlooked a missing seam. When the construct came alive, the head tore itself from the body, and... scrambled off. Nereda says it's nothing to worry about. She's out looking for it now. In fact, that scratching at my door is probably her."
I'm guessing it wasn't Nerada. Ba-dum-tish.[/quote]
Of course it took them by surprise. But when it became known that the Harvester was out of control, it still managed to kick their asses. And Nereda brought along her own retinue of soldiers and Mages -- as we fight their spirits and corpses -- and there were who knows how many Dwarves there.
And what you fail to mention is how Nereda, a Tevinter Magister, didn't want to go through with such a venture because she knew that using flesh and lyrium and magic and
Demons was bad Mojo Jojo.
[quote]
He field-tested creating an undead horror that could destroy an entire city? You'd think that would have made the papers at some point. "Horrific abomination kills hundreds! Meredith blames mages! Merrill says something cute!"[/quote]
I didn't say field tested in the gardens of the city where people go to make kissie-faces. I just said field tested. Most of his research takes place in that Abandoned Foundry. He would've field tested there.
[quote]It's not exactly uncommon for mad scientists and wizards in fiction to use themselves as guinea pigs or to conduct experiments with no control groups. Cut Quentin a little slack; he's no different from Professor Curt Connors or Dr. Henry Jekyll.[/quote]
If he used himself as a guinea pig, he'd be a Harvester when we met him. It's an irreversible ritual because it results in your death.
[quote]
They're still just piles of dead flesh and bone. Their function is different — the Harvester is a weapon, "Leandra" was a sex toy — but the basic principle is the same.
[/quote]
But it's not.
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 février 2013 - 05:15 .
Retour en haut
