462 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You really have to wonder why Orsino was so desperately and energeticly against a simplw tower search.
Of all the things going on in the Circles, of all security measures - certanly this one is the most understandable and least severe.

I postulate that Orsino knew...knew that there were blood mages in the Circle. Knew that the search would find evidence of connections between the Circle and rebellious mages in the city.

Except Meredith calls for these things on a regular occurrence. If a person was constipated, she'd say it's evidence of corruption.

Besides, I'm supposed to believe the woman that wants an RoA -- to such degree that she went over her superior's head asking the Divine for it -- is going to be a nice lady during this search? Please.

Orsino was justified in refusing her search at first. She's a paranoid, vindictive, obsessive, malicious, psychotic ****.  And there's nothing to indicate that the entire Circle was corrupt. Not even Orsino's connection to Quentin qualifies as "full scale corruption". It's bad, yes, but it doesn't condemn the entire Circle.

Bollocks.

He isn't justified. Period.
If police were to come to your house with a search warrant, the "I dont' trust the police" doesn't fly as an excuse. What you belive won't be relevant to anyone.

Why do you think they are searching the tower in the first place? Blood mages. But fighting against the search, he is effectively protecting them..and protecting his own ass.


Also, Meredith asking for RoA doesn't really indicate anything. Gregoir asked for a RoA too. It's a Knight-Commanders job to make such decisions. Besides, Elthina was still alive at that point, and any RoA request would still have to go trough her.

As for nothig indicating the Circle was corrupt - half of the forums would like to disagree with you.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You really have to wonder why Orsino was so desperately and energeticly against a simplw tower search.
Of all the things going on in the Circles, of all security measures - certanly this one is the most understandable and least severe.

I postulate that Orsino knew...knew that there were blood mages in the Circle. Knew that the search would find evidence of connections between the Circle and rebellious mages in the city.

Except Meredith calls for these things on a regular occurrence. If a person was constipated, she'd say it's evidence of corruption.

Besides, I'm supposed to believe the woman that wants an RoA -- to such degree that she went over her superior's head asking the Divine for it -- is going to be a nice lady during this search? Please.

Orsino was justified in refusing her search at first. She's a paranoid, vindictive, obsessive, malicious, psychotic ****.  And there's nothing to indicate that the entire Circle was corrupt. Not even Orsino's connection to Quentin qualifies as "full scale corruption". It's bad, yes, but it doesn't condemn the entire Circle.

Bollocks.

He isn't justified. Period.
If police were to come to your house with a search warrant, the "I dont' trust the police" doesn't fly as an excuse. What you belive won't be relevant to anyone.

Why do you think they are searching the tower in the first place? Blood mages. But fighting against the search, he is effectively protecting them..and protecting his own ass.


Also, Meredith asking for RoA doesn't really indicate anything. Gregoir asked for a RoA too. It's a Knight-Commanders job to make such decisions. Besides, Elthina was still alive at that point, and any RoA request would still have to go trough her.

As for nothig indicating the Circle was corrupt - half of the forums would like to disagree with you.

Except that she did not claim she had a warrant or approval of Elthina to search the Gallows. She just wanted to search the place based, essentially, on her own paranoia. Saying "if you don't back down you have something to hide" smacks of the inquisitorial approach to justice civilized people in general don't tend to subscribe to. Evolving notions of ethics and all that...

[MisterJB]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
Except that she did not claim she had a warrant or approval of Elthina to search the Gallows. She just wanted to search the place based, essentially, on her own paranoia. Saying "if you don't back down you have something to hide" smacks of the inquisitorial approach to justice civilized people in general don't tend to subscribe to. Evolving notions of ethics and all that...

I admit that Meredith's approach is less than optimal and does not make people want to cooperate with her. However, the fact that Orsino doesn't want her to check the tower under any circunstances; despite the fact that several Circle mages have been found practicing blood magic and thus could have easily taught other Circle mages since they are a closed community; makes me think he had something to hide.
Probrably the fact he was a blood mage himself.

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
Except that she did not claim she had a warrant or approval of Elthina to search the Gallows. She just wanted to search the place based, essentially, on her own paranoia. Saying "if you don't back down you have something to hide" smacks of the inquisitorial approach to justice civilized people in general don't tend to subscribe to. Evolving notions of ethics and all that...

I admit that Meredith's approach is less than optimal and does not make people want to cooperate with her. However, the fact that Orsino doesn't want her to check the tower under any circunstances; despite the fact that several Circle mages have been found practicing blood magic and thus could have easily taught other Circle mages since they are a closed community; makes me think he had something to hide.
Probrably the fact he was a blood mage himself.

Meredith was blaming everything on blood magic. Her reasons for keeping her illegal political power was that she was the only one who could protect the city. She refused to let the nobility run the city, as they should've, because of the possibility of them being influenced by blood magic.

I agree that Orsino probably could've been a little bit more open, but Meredith was completely unreasonable. She literally was blaming everything on blood magic. When Hawke reports that Orsino had nothing to do with Thrask's rebellion, she says Hawke is being influenced by blood magic.

Were I in Orsino's shoes, I would oppose Meredith searching the Gallows as well unless she was backed by Elthina or showed direct evidence that she had an idea on who the blood mages may or may not be.

It doesn't help that Meredith was actively trying to get the Right of Annulment, and when Elthina denied it, Meredith appealed the Divine for the authority to do so.

EDIT; Thought of this after a bit, so I think it adds to my point.

Since Meredith was trying to get the Right of Annulment, and Elthina denied it, but Meredith went to the Divine instead, it is obvious that Meredith wasn't interesting in acting to protecting people. She was looking for an excuse to kill all the mages. And since all she was doing was looking for an excuse to commit genocide, I think Orsino was right to bar her from searching the Gallows without evidence.

It may be cited that all the blood mages we run into is evidence, but's evidence of rogue mages, not the Circle as a whole. If Meredith used that as the reason to want a search of the tower, I would support her. But nope. It's blood mage this, blood mage that, if you disagree with me you must be a blood mage or are being influenced by a blood mage. If people don't like templars having so much power then it must be blood mages keeping you from appreciating what we're trying to do, and so on.

She sounded like a broken record. To quote a Hawke and Orsino conversation.

Hawke: She like to take one and one and come up with eleven.

Orsino: Sometimes 111.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 01 mars 2013 - 07:14 .

[Hazegurl]

MisterJB wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
Except that she did not claim she had a warrant or approval of Elthina to search the Gallows. She just wanted to search the place based, essentially, on her own paranoia. Saying "if you don't back down you have something to hide" smacks of the inquisitorial approach to justice civilized people in general don't tend to subscribe to. Evolving notions of ethics and all that...

I admit that Meredith's approach is less than optimal and does not make people want to cooperate with her. However, the fact that Orsino doesn't want her to check the tower under any circunstances; despite the fact that several Circle mages have been found practicing blood magic and thus could have easily taught other Circle mages since they are a closed community; makes me think he had something to hide.
Probrably the fact he was a blood mage himself.

This is what I've thought as well. A room search seems reasonable considering the rampant number of blood mages in the city.

[TEWR]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Bollocks.

He isn't justified. Period.
If police were to come to your house with a search warrant, the "I dont' trust the police" doesn't fly as an excuse. What you belive won't be relevant to anyone.

If police came to my house with a warrant, they'd have the legal grounds to allow themselves into my house. Meredith does not.

If Meredith had said "Blood mages took down Ser Thrask, there may be more. Surely you must have considered this." then she'd have a valid reasoning for the search.

If she had said "Elthina consented to this search, Orsino." then she'd have a legal reason to perform the search. If she had done anything that made her seem more approachable in her request -- instead of a demand -- to search the tower, then she'd be better off. Because it's the duty of the Knight-Commander to work with the First Enchanter by offering olive branches to him/her, not to make them feel inferior and subservient.

Her approach was horrendous and does not make anyone want to work with her. The fact that she promotes extremists to high positions of authority does not speak well to her mindset towards Mages. Karras is a knight-lieutenant. Ser Alrik is in a high position of authority, and Ser Mettin was tasked by Meredith with the "duty of 'purging' anyone that assists a Mage". 

And assisting a Mage, while a crime under Chantry law, is not punishable by death.

If Gregoir had proposed the search, I'd back him immediately because he's shown himself to only take action when it's truly necessary. If Cullen suggested it, I'd spend a good deal of time arguing with myself over it before I came to a decision on who to search.

But not Meredith. What's the first thing she does when she gets the legal authority over the Circle? Oh she calls for a culling of all the Mages in Kirkwall, for nothing more then appeasing the hypothetical mob that never forms. She doesn't lock down the Gallows with her Templars guarding the Mages, nor does she instruct the Guard-Captain and Champion to control a mob if it does form. 

She doesn't even say "Hah! Now I have the authority to go through with a search!"

She is the worst type of leader, incompetent both as a Knight-Commander and a woman involved in politics. Doesn't help that she's being controlled by the lyrium idol, but even prior to that she was incompetent.

Try and do better next time.

Why do you think they are searching the tower in the first place? Blood mages. But fighting against the search, he is effectively protecting them..and protecting his own ass.

Considering Thrask's rebellion against Meredith was destroyed entirely by the fool actions of Grace and there are no more blood mages -- save for those Meredith's RoA creates -- then there's no basis for it. The Mages were questioned, the surviving Templars suspended from the Order, and Hawke can even tell Meredith Orsino wasn't involved and IIRC that the threat has been taken care of.

And he does consent to the search when Meredith shows how far off the rocker she is.

Also, Meredith asking for RoA doesn't really indicate anything. Gregoir asked for a RoA too.

And Gregoir's situation was completely different, as he had Abominations and Demons coming out of the woodwork. Meredith did it to appease a hypothetical mob.

They're two completely different scenarios.

It's a Knight-Commanders job to make such decisions.

When it's truly necessary. If your Knight-Captain is questioning the necessity of it, then you're probably doing it wrong.

Besides, Elthina was still alive at that point, and any RoA request would still have to go trough her.

As for nothig indicating the Circle was corrupt - half of the forums would like to disagree with you.

And that half is wrong.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 mars 2013 - 04:51 .

[BlueMagitek]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

An unreliable codex entry? Truly you jest. >.>

It's not written by any in-game author. Here's all of it.

The Harvester is the product of a misguided attempt to recreate Paragon Caridin's research to build golems for Orzammar. The researchers used the flesh of casteless dwarves as a cheap alternative to stone or steel. Fade spirits were bound to dead flesh, animating it. The creature turned out to be uncontrollable, resulting in the death of the research team.The Harvester appears to be a twisted construct of rotting, flailing limbs with a disproportionately large head. It is able to attach itself to, and control, larger constructs of flesh.

Uh, that doesn't say that the Harvester is uncontrollable, only that the created Harvester, then and there, was not able to be controlled. 

I mean, during the first Blight, it seemed that the Archedemon turned out to be incapable of permanent death, but there was a way around that.  Giving up on the first try isn't going to help anyone.

And the lack of author doesn't make the codex reliable.

[MisterJB]

There were extremely good reasons to perform a search on the Circle due to mages like Huon and Grace having been discovered to be blood mages, not to mention someone from inside the Circle leaving books on necromancy for a mage serial killer to find. Where there is one blood mage there could be a dozen because blood magic is taught.

If nothing is found, all the better. Will that be enough to convince Meredith she is wrong? Likely not but it will give more considerate people like Cullen and Elthina reason to pause and question the Knight Commander the next time she wants to conduct a search.
By forbidding their entrance, the only thing Orsino was doing was giving everyone reason to suspect he was hiding something. That plus the numerous blood mages and abominations help strengthen Meredith's position because Kirkwall will turn to her in this time of crisis.

And if the First Enchanter is a blood mage concealing other blood mages just like the endgame strongly suggests, then perhaps an Annulment IS in order.

After all, where did all those blood mages we encounter in the Circle if we play Pro-Templar come from? Even if they learned those abilities plus demonic summoning in the time it took for Hawke to get from Lowtown to the Gallows; which is extremely hard to believe; they would still have needed either teachers or books, none of which should have been in the Circle in the first place.

Modifié par MisterJB, 02 mars 2013 - 02:16 .

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

There were extremely good reasons to perform a search on the Circle due to mages like Huon and Grace having been discovered to be blood mages, not to mention someone from inside the Circle leaving books on necromancy for a mage serial killer to find. Where there is one blood mage there could be a dozen because blood magic is taught.

Huon was an isolated case that might not have ever happened had the Templars of Kirkwall not been abusive pricks who dragged him away from his wife literally in chains, refused to let him see her for 10 years, and more then likely beat him given the mentality of the Templars towards Elves -- going so far as to torture and kill one Elven child for information on Feynriel without batting an eyelash, because they're "knife-ears".

Grace, yes. There is, on some level, a reasoning to believe she may have led other Mages to blood magic. But even so, the rebellion that failed posed a threat no longer. The Mages were quarantined, for want of a better word, and questioned. The Templars were suspended and I'm willing to bet similarly questioned as well.

If there was any indication from either party that there were more blood mages, then I'd expect Meredith to bring up that fact. What good is a rebellion when your leader -- Thrask -- lies dead in a pool of his own blood? When all the lieutenants also died? When all that's left are Mages that are too scared to fight anymore?

No, Grace is not sufficient grounds. Not when we factor in everything else. To focus on one factor but ignore the others at play diminishes everyone, Mage and Templar alike.

If nothing is found, all the better. Will that be enough to convince Meredith she is wrong? Likely not but it will give more considerate people like Cullen and Elthina reason to pause and question the Knight Commander the next time she wants to conduct a search.
By forbidding their entrance, the only thing Orsino was doing was giving everyone reason to suspect he was hiding something. That plus the numerous blood mages and abominations help strengthen Meredith's position because Kirkwall will turn to her in this time of crisis.

Numerous blood mages and Abominations that Meredith doesn't deal with at all over the course of seven years, you mean to say?

And Orsino DOES consent to it, when Meredith goes completely off the deep end. Meredith was granted the legal authority to perform her search if she wanted without having to go to any religious authority for approval, but her first action is to call for an RoA to appease a hypothetical mob.

It'd be one thing if she had said "I have authority to call for the search now, Orsino. And reasoning for it doubly so, for now I must see if this.... Mage.... had any allies within the Circle."

But she decides to go through with the one action she's wanted to do all along. The one action that she's asked Elthina to permit numerous times and when refused all those times, went to the Divine for approval. Purging a Circle for the high crime of existence.

And if the First Enchanter is a blood mage concealing other blood mages just like the endgame strongly suggests, then perhaps an Annulment IS in order.

The endgame doesn't suggest diddly. The blood mage you fight on the Docks does not perform anything remotely close to summoning Demons when she turns, and the Pride Demon was already on the docks. If she had summoned Demons, that Pride Demon would've overwhelmed her like one did to Uldred. And it's known that Pride Demons can summon other Demons.

No, the simplest conclusion to draw is that the Pride Demon summoned those Demons. It was already there even before you fight the blood mage.

And also, you'd first have to prove that any blood mages fought in the endgame -- of which there is only the one -- did not turn to blood magic out of desperation to survive an unjust RoA as opposed to having been blood mages all along.

After all, where did all those blood mages we encounter in the Circle if we play Pro-Templar come from? Even if they learned those abilities plus demonic summoning in the time it took for Hawke to get from Lowtown to the Gallows; which is extremely hard to believe; they would still have needed either teachers or books, none of which should have been in the Circle in the first place.

You only fight one blood mage. The other Mages fought are coupled alongside Templars, under the mind control of a Desire Demon. But they do not use blood magic. 

Well... then there's also the five Mages in Lowtown. But they're not blood mages either.

At other times, you'll fight Abominations, Demons, Shades, and undead. But no other blood mages.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 mars 2013 - 04:51 .

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Huon was an isolated case that might not have ever happened had the Templars of Kirkwall not been abusive pricks who dragged him away from his wife literally in chains, refused to let him see her for 10 years, and more then likely beat him given the mentality of the Templars towards Elves -- going so far as to torture and kill one Elven child for information on Feynriel without batting an eyelash, because they're "knife-ears".

Huon's treatment is definitely abhorrent, but his actions are equally inexcusable. His wife never posed him any harm, but he murdered her to fuel a blood magic ritual.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The endgame doesn't suggest diddly. The blood mage you fight on the Docks does not perform anything remotely close to summoning Demons when she turns, and the Pride Demon was already on the docks. If she had summoned Demons, that Pride Demon would've overwhelmed her like one did to Uldred. And it's known that Pride Demons can summon other Demons.

Sure, a bunch of shades merely appear in close proximity to her when she attacks. They then proceed to completely ignore the lone unaffiliated mage in favour of attacking Hawke's heavily armed group.

I'll be one of the first people to point out that correlation does not equal causation, but the connection there is pretty clear.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

At other times, you'll fight Abominations, Demons, Shades, and undead. But no other blood mages.

Surely not ALL of those demons could be abominations. Some must have been summoned by blood magic.

Meredith had literally just called the Rite of Annulment. Now, I'll grant you that the game utilizes a nebulous Comic Book Time wherein days can pass in the matter of RL hours, but surely not THAT much time had passed between Meredith calling the RoA and Hawke encountering several groups of demons.

Did the mages who summoned those demons learn blood magic in the matter of minutes while fighting templars? Unless they did, it's logical to assume that they knew blood magic before Meredith called the RoA.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 02 mars 2013 - 05:43 .

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

The torture definitely occurs, but there's no indication the child was killed. Still horrid, of course.

True. The Dalish Hunter says that he was tortured with fire. I guess I was remembering Hawke's "torture and kill" and putting it to the Dalish Hunter's voice.

But the Templar does threaten to kill the Dalish if they don't hand over Feynriel, saying "That's nothing compared to what we'll do!" and how she "doesn't care a jot about these knife-ears."

Huon's treatment is definitely abhorrent, but his actions are inexcusable. His wife never posed him any harm, but he murdered her to fuel a blood magic ritual.

His mind was broken. Can you hold a person fully accountable for what they do when you have previously broken their mind? Huon committed a crime, yes. But when a person's mind is broken, it becomes unfair to use that as "evidence" against all Mages. The Templars bear their blame.

If he was sane, then he'd be accountable and only him. 

Sure, a bunch of shades merely appear in close proximity to her when she attacks and completely ignores the lone mage in favour of attacking Hawke's heavily armed group.

Gameplay. That the game classifies all foes as operating under the same banner does not suggest anything. But what we can take from the fact that the Pride Demon is always there is that it summoned the other demons, as the lore makes clear and the Baroness even demonstrated.

Along with Hybris.

A case of gameplay reflecting the lore as opposed to equating itself to the lore.

The Blood Mage does not do anything to suggest summoning the Demons other then being there, and as IanPolaris pointed out can even be killed before the Shades show up.

Here is the pertinent information:

It is they who seek most strongly to possess mages, and will bring other demons across the Veil in numbers to achieve their own ends—although what that might be has never been discovered. A greater pride demon, brought across the veil, would threaten the entire world.
From the Codex entry on Demonic Possession. And how many Demons are brought about? A crapton. A Pride Demon is capable of bringing about that many Demons at one time. 

Surely not ALL of those demons could be abominations. Some must have been summoned by blood magic.

The Veil is paper thin, where Demons routinely come out of the woodwork. There are even a few cases where we see this in the endgame. We saw a Mage give her entire body over to a Demon just to "survive" the RoA.

And Abominations/Arcane Horrors/Pride Demons can summon other Demons. See Uldred-Not-Uldred.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 mars 2013 - 06:00 .

[IanPolaris]

thats1evildude wrote...

I'll be one of the first people to point out that correlation does not equal causation, but the connection there is pretty clear.

It's not  clear to me, especially since almost all of those shades appear AFTER I kill the bloodmage, and I happen to know that Pride Demons can (and do) summon other demons.

-Polaris

[dragonflight288]

Huon's treatment is definitely abhorrent, but his actions are equally inexcusable. His wife never posed him any harm, but he murdered her to fuel a blood magic ritual.

After he had been driven completely nuts by the templars. I'm not defending Huon. He did murder his wife in a blood magic ritual. But after the treatment he received by the templars, they too share the blame and the responsibility.

If he had done so while completely sane, he'd bare all the blame. When driven to insanity by the templars, they share in it.

Sure, a bunch of shades merely appear in close proximity to her when she attacks and completely ignores the lone mage in favour of attacking Hawke's heavily armed group.

Why not? Demons are attracted to mages first and foremost. That had been established since the mage origin story. Add in Kirkwall's paper-thin veil and all the violence that is now occurring, the mages now forced into desperate acts, I wouldn't be surprised if the veil was sundered and demons found their own way through.

Surely not ALL of those demons could be abominations. Some must have been summoned by blood magic.

Meredith had literally just called the Rite of Annulment. Now, I'll grant you that the game utilizes a nebulous Comic Book Time wherein days can pass in the matter of RL hours, but surely not THAT much time had passed between Meredith calling the RoA and Hawke encountering several groups of demons.

Did the mages who summoned those demons learn blood magic in the matter of minutes while fighting templars? Unless they did, it's logical to assume that they knew blood magic before Meredith called the RoA.

But it doesn't take that much time for the templars to start killing any mage they could find in the street. Orsino rushed back to the Circle and informed them that they were all going to be killed for a crime none of them committed.

Now, I'm sure a few were summoned by very desperate mages. Like Avernus, they probably hoped the demons would kill their enemies for them, or fight the templars. Desperate and stupid acts come with desperate mages who are now panicking. If they do nothing, they'll die. If they try to surrender, they'll die, or be made tranquil, which is considered worse than death by many of them. If they stand a fight, they'll most likely die, but they might live.

They aren't an army. They haven't been trained in warfare. Most are simply trying to live their lives.

But in the end, mages have options most people don't, so why on earth would it be smart to drive hundreds of them into a corner and decide it is best to kill them on the flimsiest of reasons and with absolutely no evidence that the Circle itself was completely corrupt?

Modifié par dragonflight288, 02 mars 2013 - 05:45 .

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Huon was an isolated case that might not have ever happened had the Templars of Kirkwall not been abusive pricks who dragged him away from his wife literally in chains, refused to let him see her for 10 years, and more then likely beat him given the mentality of the Templars towards Elves -- going so far as to torture and kill one Elven child for information on Feynriel without batting an eyelash, because they're "knife-ears".

Grace, yes. There is, on some level, a reasoning to believe she may have led other Mages to blood magic. But even so, the rebellion that failed posed a threat no longer. The Mages were quarantined, for want of a better word, and questioned. The Templars were suspended and I'm willing to bet similarly questioned as well.

If there was any indication from either party that there were more blood mages, then I'd expect Meredith to bring up that fact. What good is a rebellion when your leader -- Thrask -- lies dead in a pool of his own blood? When all the lieutenants also died? When all that's left are Mages that are too scared to fight anymore?

No, Grace is not sufficient grounds. Not when we factor in everything else. To focus on one factor but ignore the others at play diminishes everyone, Mage and Templar alike.

Huon and Grace are part of the very same case of mages from the same Circle becoming blood mages, that is the only relevant. There might have been no more or there might have been a dozen.
A search on the tower is the only responsible course of action.

Numerous blood mages and Abominations that Meredith doesn't deal with at all over the course of seven years, you mean to say?

And Orsino DOES consent to it, when Meredith goes completely off the deep end. Meredith was granted the legal authority to perform her search if she wanted without having to go to any religious authority for approval, but her first action is to call for an RoA to appease a hypothetical mob.

It'd be one thing if she had said "I have authority to call for the search now, Orsino. And reasoning for it doubly so, for now I must see if this.... Mage.... had any allies within the Circle."

But she decides to go through with the one action she's wanted to do all along. The one action that she's asked Elthina to permit numerous times and when refused all those times, went to the Divine for approval. Purging a Circle for the high crime of existence.

I do not support Meredith's ROA altough I mantain that once called the only option to save the city is to kill the mages.
Tell me, why did Orsino not just offer to let Meredith search the tower right off the bat? Why run to it first if not to conceal his involvement with blood magic?

The endgame doesn't suggest diddly. The blood mage you fight on the Docks does not perform anything remotely close to summoning Demons when she turns, and the Pride Demon was already on the docks. If she had summoned Demons, that Pride Demon would've overwhelmed her like one did to Uldred. And it's known that Pride Demons can summon other Demons.

No, the simplest conclusion to draw is that the Pride Demon summoned those Demons. It was already there even before you fight the blood mage.

And also, you'd first have to prove that any blood mages fought in the endgame -- of which there is only the one -- did not turn to blood magic out of desperation to survive an unjust RoA as opposed to having been blood mages all along.

I'm not talking about the blood mage in the docks who could have been hiding in the city and took the opportunity to kill some people.
I'm talking about this:




As you can plainly see not only were there blood mages within the Circle's wall, these demons are appearing in the vinicity of mages and blantantly ignoring them to focus on those attempting to kill the mages.
And don't tell me that is due to game constraints. If you side with the mage, the first fight you'll face is against an abomination and templars. However, as you can see:


Despite both being marked as hostile to the player, they are still fighting each other. The game's limitations still allow it.
Therefore, if the demons are ignoring the mages, it's likely because they summoned them.

Now, you can tell me that they turned to blood magic out of desperation. However, the endgame happens all in less than one night. Do you really believe that these mages learned to perform blood magic and demonic summoning in the heat of battle, just like that? Doubtfull.
And even if they did, who would teach them? Merril is with me. (you might not know, but if Merril joins the Circle, you fight even more blood mages which I can only assume she taught them)

No, I think the only reasonable explanation is that there was a faction of mages within the Circle who had been studying blood magic for some time.

Well... then there's also the five Mages in Lowtown. But they're not blood mages either.

If they are controlling demons, then they are blood mages. And my very first screenshot is from that battle where you see a Shade ignoring one of those five mages.

[DKJaigen]

I do not support Meredith's ROA altough I mantain that once called the only option to save the city is to kill the mages.
Tell me, why did Orsino not just offer to let Meredith search the tower right off the bat? Why run to it first if not to conceal his involvement with blood magic?

Imagine a world where the police can barge down your door on any suspicion and you have your answer. If i was Orsino and i was not aware of bloodmages in the circle or was not even a bloodmage i would not allow Meredith to perform this search.

But whatever point your trying to make is not relevant in the slightest MisterJB. The city stands even if you support the mages so any argument you bring forth to defend the templars little genocide on that basis is inherently flawed. You are not saving the city if you side with the templars.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Huon and Grace are part of the very same case of mages from the same Circle becoming blood mages,

Grace is a Starkhaven Mage.

that is the only relevant.

Just like all investigations of crimes should only be focused on the crime itself? Let's ignore motive, mitigating circumstances, etc. and focus on "Blood Mages!"

There might have been no more or there might have been a dozen.
A search on the tower is the only responsible course of action.

It'd be nice if Meredith brought up pertinent information to differentiate a reasonable request from her everyday "Are there boogeymen in the closet/under the bed" search.

I do not support Meredith's ROA altough I mantain that once called the only option to save the city is to kill the mages.

Considering you don't fight more then one blood Mage in the Mage ending, I'd say Hawke's doing a bit more damage control on their side. Less Mages turn to blood magic. 

Which, you know, Meredith might have had a grasp over if she realized calling for an Annulment against people who have the potential to use blood magic/go Abomination to survive on the weakest of reasons is just going to cause more damage then it prevents.

Hell, anyone in the Order should've been smart enough to realize that. Even Cullen the Oblivious Twit.

Most of the Templars in Kirkwall are monstrous ****s and I'm not shedding many tears over their deaths. If Cullen at least feels seriously guilt-ridden over his complicity in a genocidal purge of Kirkwall's Circle then I'll be content. If they wanted to keep order then they should've displayed some actual intelligence.

Tell me, why did Orsino not just offer to let Meredith search the tower right off the bat? Why run to it first if not to conceal his involvement with blood magic?

Because again, she does this all the damn time. It's a Knight-Commander's job to work with the First Enchanter, not to undermine his authority, abuse the Mages, and act like a totalitarian **** to him. She acts like she's the supreme leader of the Circle and everyone must bow to her will, when that is not the case.

If she had been more approachable in her request -- instead of demanding it -- then Orsino might have relented. Demanding someone bow down to what you want to do is not going to help things. Requesting it will. 

And Orsino does approve of the removal of blood mages to Hawke, telling him that if the secret meeting should prove to have more sinister applications -- blood magic -- that he's content with Hawke dealing with it. Prior to the game, he cited blood magic as being "dark arts", which indicates an Andrastian outlook on it in terms of practice. The actual study of it is another matter. Even Adralla of Vyrantium studied blood magic but never once practiced it.

I'm not talking about the blood mage in the docks who could have been hiding in the city and took the opportunity to kill some people.
I'm talking about this:

Ah. Mea culpa.

However, the first pic is from a battle where only one blood mage appears. The rest are simply Circle Mages using sanctioned magic to attack.

Or doing the Macarena. Hard to say.

Either way, in the Pro-Mage ending you fight less blood mages, which supports the argument that Mages turned to it to survive rather then because they had prior knowledge.

Also, in that Gallows fight some of the Mages turn into Abominations, IIRC, which indicates that the Mages could've been possessed the entire time just like Grace was. Indeed, the second image doesn't have any Mages labeled "Blood Mage" like the Dockside one did. The Mages are labeled "Circle Mage" and "Enchanter" and do not use the blood magic abilities that blood mages routinely use in DAII.

As you can plainly see not only were there blood mages within the Circle's wall, these demons are appearing in the vinicity of mages and blantantly ignoring them to focus on those attempting to kill the mages.
And don't tell me that is due to game constraints. If you side with the mage, the first fight you'll face is against an abomination and templars. However, as you can see:

Now that I think on it, the Dwarves of the Carta and Qunari fought each other and both were classified as enemies.

Even so, just to make mention of it for the sake of covering my bases that does not mean the Blood Mage on the Docks summoned the Demons and not the Pride Demon that's always there.

Despite both being marked as hostile to the player, they are still fighting each other. The game's limitations still allow it.
Therefore, if the demons are ignoring the mages, it's likely because they summoned them.

Now, you can tell me that they turned to blood magic out of desperation. However, the endgame happens all in less than one night. Do you really believe that these mages learned to perform blood magic and demonic summoning in the heat of battle, just like that? Doubtfull.

We don't know how much time passed before the RoA began in terms of the ones fought in the Gallows proper. Meredith tells Orsino to go and gather his people while her people cross from the Docks to the Gallows. That could take a few hours to accomplish, depending on the size of the boats, the number of Templars crossing, etc. More then enough time to gain a grasp over the summoning through a pact with a Demon instead of having prior knowledge.

And as said before, Kirkwall's Veil is paper thin where Demons routinely come out of the woodwork. So there are two other possible scenarios to conclude:

1) The Demons are ignoring the Mage temporarily, so that they can defeat Hawke and company, but came through of their own volition and will promptly possess the Mages at the first opportunity. Why open yourself up to an assault when you can use a Mage to help you take down these sodding fools trying to put a damper on your plans?

2) The Mages did use blood magic (obviously) but it was only the slightest bit of it that brought Demons across the Veil and not a summoning ritual itself. Alain makes mention of how Decimus said they should use blood magic anyway if they were going to be branded maleficar and that just one cut of his woke the Undead in the cave. And Undead only come about when Demons pass through the Veil and possess a corpse. 

Now, yes, the Mages fought in Lowtown may be summoning Demons. But these same Mages do not do any such thing in the Mage ending, indicating that they never knew it at all before the RoA. Indicating that the RoA pushed them to learn it.

And even if they did, who would teach them? Merril is with me. (you might not know, but if Merril joins the Circle, you fight even more blood mages which I can only assume she taught them)

Bear in mind that DAII actually turned its back on demonic lore by having Mages become possessed when fully conscious, when DAO stated that Demons will seek to possess a Mage when he enters the Fade.

Given how we saw a Mage turn herself over to a Demon while fully conscious, we can similarly assume a bargain can be struck with a Demon while fully conscious.

But again, how we are to take DAII's retcons of DAO lore I do not know.

No, I think the only reasonable explanation is that there was a faction of mages within the Circle who had been studying blood magic for some time.

Likely or no, it's not authoritative proof and much less is it proof of Orsino harboring blood mages considering he tells Hawke that if the Mages of BSC are indeed using blood magic that Hawke could then deal with them. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 mars 2013 - 10:27 .

[MisterJB]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Grace is a Starkhaven Mage.[/quote]
Grace has spent years in the Kirkwall Circle.
[quote]
Just like all investigations of crimes should only be focused on the crime itself? Let's ignore motive, mitigating circumstances, etc. and focus on "Blood Mages!" [/quote]
Blood magic can be taught. Therefore, where there is one blood mages there could be a dozen. Mages live in closed communities which grants them plenty of contact and opportunity to teach each other.
What others factors are relevant here?

[quote]
It'd be nice if Meredith brought up pertinent information to differentiate a reasonable request from her everyday "Are there boogeymen in the closet/under the bed" search. [/quote]
I remember Meredith being right on the money in most of her assessments.

[quote]
Considering you don't fight more then one blood Mage in the Mage ending, I'd say Hawke's doing a bit more damage control on their side. Less Mages turn to blood magic.  [/quote]
I'm not talking about blood magic but the inevitable social conflict caused by the defeat of the templars.
But that's a different topic, no need to start pilling them up just yet.

[quote]Which, you know, Meredith might have had a grasp over if she realized calling for an Annulment against people who have the potential to use blood magic/go Abomination to survive on the weakest of reasons is just going to cause more damage then it prevents.

Hell, anyone in the Order should've been smart enough to realize that. Even Cullen the Oblivious Twit. [/quote]
Regardless of reason, mages will always have the potential to use blood magic or summon demons.
If we follow that logic, we couldn't ever do anything against them despite their crimes because it's better not to anger them. Mage killed someone? Well, it's better not to go after him. He might summon a demon and then more people will die.
There is no faster route for mundanes to be placed back in chains.

[quote]All the Templars in Kirkwall are monstrous ****s and I'm not shedding many tears over their deaths. If Cullen at least feels seriously guilt-ridden over his complicity in a genocidal purge of Kirkwall's Circle then I'll be content. [/quote]
No, they aren't. Emeric, Thrask, Cullen, Agatha, Keran, Samson, Carver, Hugh, Paxley, Ruvena, Margitte, Moira are all examples of Kirkwaller Templars who are either clearly good people or simply people who don't deserve to die.
Bethany and Ella also remark that many templars inside the Kirkwall Chapter are just people trying to do their job and are not the sligthest bit interested in more Tranquils or deaths.

[quote]
Because again, she does this all the damn time. It's a Knight-Commander's job to work with the First Enchanter, not to undermine his authority, abuse the Mages, and act like a totalitarian **** to him. She acts like she's the supreme leader of the Circle and everyone must bow to her will, when that is not the case.

If she had been more approachable in her request -- instead of demanding it -- then Orsino might have relented. Demanding someone bow down to what you want to do is not going to help things. Requesting it will.[/quote]
I mean after Elthina's death. Why not simply offer to let Meredith search the Circle right there to appease her? Why run back there first if not to conceal his involvement with blood magic.

[quote]And Orsino does approve of the removal of blood mages to Hawke, telling him that if the secret meeting should prove to have more sinister applications -- blood magic -- that he's content with Hawke dealing with it. Prior to the game, he cited blood magic as being "dark arts", which indicates an Andrastian outlook on it in terms of practice. The actual study of it is another matter. Even Adralla of Vyrantium studied blood magic but never once practiced it. [/quote]
He could just be putting a show. Since Meredith has sniffed out this particular group of blood mages, better to let her take care of them and pretend he approves of it so his own experiments in necromancy as well as other groups of blood mages he has been training in the Circle remain secret.


[quote]
We don't know how much time passed before the RoA began in terms of the ones fought in the Gallows proper. Meredith tells Orsino to go and gather his people while her people cross from the Docks to the Gallows. That could take a few hours to accomplish, depending on the size of the boats, the number of Templars crossing, etc. More then enough time to gain a grasp over the summoning through a pact with a Demon instead of having prior knowledge. [/quote]
The Scrolls of Banastor paint the process of summoning a demon without being possessed, as some Circle mages are clearly doing, to be an extremely difficult and meticulous endeavor.
Hardly the thing you can do in the space of a few hours with the threat of death looming over your head.

[quote]
1) The Demons are ignoring the Mage temporarily, so that they can defeat Hawke and company, but came through of their own volition and will promptly possess the Mages at the first opportunity. Why open yourself up to an assault when you can use a Mage to help you take down these sodding fools trying to put a damper on your plans? [/quote]
Why not just forcibly possess a mage thus greatly increasing your own power?
And this is not like what happens with the Carta and Qunari where bnoth groups start attacking the player when he reveals himself to be the greatest threat.
The mages and demons are literally just lazying around until Hawke gets close, plenty of time for a demon to possess a mage.

[quote]2) The Mages did use blood magic (obviously) but it was only the slightest bit of it that brought Demons across the Veil and not a summoning ritual itself. Alain makes mention of how Decimus said they should use blood magic anyway if they were going to be branded maleficar and that just one cut of his woke the Undead in the cave. And Undead only come about when Demons pass through the Veil and possess a corpse.  [/quote]
As I said before, demon summoning is hardly something to be mastered in a few hours.

Also, this is irrelevant to the topic and I don't have much evidence, but I'd say there is a difference between a Devouring or Rage corpse; which are corpses possessed by Hunger and Rage Demons respectivelly, and a Walking Skeleton.

[quote]Now, yes, the Mages fought in Lowtown may be summoning Demons. But these same Mages do not do any such thing in the Mage ending, indicating that they never knew it at all before the RoA. Indicating that the RoA pushed them to learn it. [/quote]
Or they simply don't want to risk angering the Champion and don't do it in front of him.
[quote]
Bear in mind that DAII actually turned its back on demonic lore by having Mages become possessed when fully conscious, when DAO stated that Demons will seek to possess a Mage when he enters the Fade.

Given how we saw a Mage turn herself over to a Demon while fully conscious, we can similarly assume a bargain can be struck with a Demon while fully conscious.

But again, how we are to take DAII's retcons of DAO lore I do not know. [/quote]
Some of the blood mages encountered in a plo-templar playthrough are, clearly, not abominations which tends to be the mages bargaining chip when deals are struck.
Which leads us back to the previous question. If the mages turned to blood magic and demon summoning in their desperation, who taught it to them?

[quote]
Likely or no, it's not authoritative proof and much less is it proof of Orsino harboring blood mages considering he tells Hawke that if the Mages of BSC are indeed using blood magic that Hawke could then deal with them. 
[/quote]
It creates plenty of room for doubting Orsino's words that he had never used blood magic and that he wasn't harboring blood mages.

[TEWR]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Grace has spent years in the Kirkwall Circle.[/quote]

IIRC she kept to herself during those years, only talking to her Starkhaven associates and sometimes Thrask.


[quote]
Blood magic can be taught. Therefore, where there is one blood mages there could be a dozen. Mages live in closed communities which grants them plenty of contact and opportunity to teach each other.
What others factors are relevant here?[/quote]

Why some of them turned to blood magic in the first place, to name one.

[quote]
I remember Meredith being right on the money in most of her assessments.[/quote]

Like how she can't even admit that Quentin only went as far as he did because of the Templars' inaction, but Cullen can?

Her assessments pick and choose what information supports her case. She calls Mages cursed and stupid, oppresses them for even the slightest of missteps, and considers what she's doing to be "vigilance". When a Mage turns to blood magic to escape being treated like a beast, she cites that as proof of her methods being needed and cranks them up further.



[quote]
I'm not talking about blood magic but the inevitable social conflict caused by the defeat of the templars.
But that's a different topic, no need to start pilling them up just yet.[/quote]

Except the Templars aren't defeated. That's not even the goal of the majority of the Mages in the RoA. Their goal is to survive, plain and simple. They are not launching a full-scale war with the intent of one side being obliterated.

What they're trying to do is get the hell out of there to spread word to the other Circles.

The Templars outnumber the Mages 20 to 1 and have abilities that negate their magic, and it's known that few Mages willingly turn themselves over to Demons. Even blood mages are few and far between in the battle itself.

 [quote]
Regardless of reason, mages will always have the potential to use blood magic or summon demons.
If we follow that logic, we couldn't ever do anything against them despite their crimes because it's better not to anger them. Mage killed someone? Well, it's better not to go after him. He might summon a demon and then more people will die.
There is no faster route for mundanes to be placed back in chains.[/quote]

"If we follow that logic" is not at all apt, because I'm talking about punishing people for a crime they haven't committed.

If Mages have committed a crime, then yes punish them.


[quote]No, they aren't.[/quote]

Allow me to rephrase and clarify. All the Templars that engage in a genocide of this degree are monsters in the act. Whether they are monsters outside of it is another matter.

But most of Kirkwall's Templars are monsters. That's always been my position in the past, where the moderates only made up 5% of the Order there. Best not to try and change stances now. 

Emeric,[/quote]

Dead because of the Templars' inaction and Quentin.

[quote]Thrask,[/quote]

Dead.

[quote]Cullen,[/quote]

Oblivious twit who engaged in genocide, but a moderate amongst Kirkwall. It remains to be seen whether he'll be realistically portrayed in DA3. If he's nonchalant about the whole thing, then he's a monster.

[quote]Agatha,[/quote]

Fair point.

[quote]Keran,[/quote]

No longer a Templar.

[quote]Samson,[/quote]

No longer a Templar, unless made into one again.

[quote]Carver,[/quote]

Who notes that he's seen his superiors engage in abuse of Mages.

[quote]Hugh, Paxley, Ruvena,[/quote]

We saw enough of Hugh or Paxley or whoever the non-caterpillar mustache one was to know that his view of Mages is not kind, calling them "Robes" just like Karras does.

[quote]Margitte,[/quote]

Don't know her, I think.

[quote]Moira are all examples of Kirkwaller Templars who are either clearly good people or simply people who don't deserve to die.[/quote]

Moira cites the Circle as "corrupt" and how Meredith should've gone through with the RoA a long time ago. 

[quote]Bethany and Ella also remark that many templars inside the Kirkwall Chapter are just people trying to do their job and are not the sligthest bit interested in more Tranquils or deaths.[/quote]

And yet they go through with the RoA anyway.

[quote]
I mean after Elthina's death. Why not simply offer to let Meredith search the Circle right there to appease her? Why run back there first if not to conceal his involvement with blood magic.[/quote]

You do realize that as soon as Elthina died, Orsino said "Why would you do such a thing?" to Anders? And that after he responded Meredith immediately called for the RoA?

He wasn't going to get through to her then. She had the authority to do what she's always wanted, instead of saying she had the search.

Meredith was never going to be appeased. Not until every Mage lay dead in a river of blood. She was eager to begin the RoA and more so to make the Circle "know fear" afterwards. Meredith had the legal authority to grant permission for her search. Orsino didn't have to offer it at all. Even so, he still did if she would revoke the RoA.

You're trying to ascribe fault to Orsino where there is none.

[quote]He could just be putting a show. Since Meredith has sniffed out this particular group of blood mages, better to let her take care of them and pretend he approves of it so his own experiments in necromancy as well as other groups of blood mages he has been training in the Circle remain secret.[/quote]

He actually didn't know Meredith knew. Indeed, he said he wanted to know who precisely was involved so that he could then take it to the Templars, saving the Mages who weren't involved from being punished while also working with the Templars to deal with them. And that if they were indeed engaging in blood magic then Hawke should take action.

As Elthina said, he is a reasonable man. He has no qualms with the Circle system or the Chantry, but with Meredith and her like-minded cronies. Even so, he does his best to make it work for both the Mages and the Templars.

And Meredith knew all along, yet she never once approached Orsino about the matter. For Orsino, at least he didn't know Meredith knew. Meredith has no such excuse. Even when told of Orsino's innocence, she clutches at her own paranoid delusions like a drowning man does to a straw.


[quote]

The Scrolls of Banastor paint the process of summoning a demon without being possessed, as some Circle mages are clearly doing, to be an extremely difficult and meticulous endeavor.
Hardly the thing you can do in the space of a few hours with the threat of death looming over your head.[/quote]

Incorrect. The Scrolls of Banastor talk of going all Flemeth on a Demon. You let it into yourself and master it and only then can you begin to gain mastery over blood magic and summoning Demons.

Which is true, because from an academic standpoint one could not claim to have mastered summoning Demons if you cannot control the most powerful of them all: Pride. And all the Demon summoning we've seen has only been of lesser Demons -- Rage and Hunger and corpses.



 [quote]
Why not just forcibly possess a mage thus greatly increasing your own power?[/quote]

Have we ever seen a Demon forcibly possess a Mage before? No. For all we know it's a time consuming battle of wills that exposes the Demon to attack. Indeed, I'd say the whole "forcing a Mage to be possessed" kind of strongly implies such a thing.

[quote]

Also, this is irrelevant to the topic and I don't have much evidence, but I'd say there is a difference between a Devouring or Rage corpse; which are corpses possessed by Hunger and Rage Demons respectivelly, and a Walking Skeleton.[/quote]

All Undead are corpses possessed by Demons. Indeed, in DAO you fight Shambling Skeletons (Sloth) and other Skeletons with names denoting Demons of Rage and Hunger. The difference is that the Demons possess the skeletons with no inkling that they are corpses and thus devoid of life. Upon seeing that the body will not sustain them, they go insane and attack anyone they can.

[quote]Or they simply don't want to risk angering the Champion and don't do it in front of him.[/quote]

And if Hawke's a Blood Mage himself or a Reaver -- a specialization where the changes are the result of blood magic?


[quote]
It creates plenty of room for doubting Orsino's words that he had never used blood magic and that he wasn't harboring blood mages.
[/quote]

There is nothing to doubt about Orsino's words. Perhaps if Meredith hadn't confined him to exploring as little room as he could possibly move through, he'd have a better inclination as to what his charges were doing. If he had been able to leave Kirkwall, he might have had more information to go off of.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 mars 2013 - 10:33 .

[MisterJB]

Filament wrote...

"Agatha the Templar"? Man, you guys are really digging into the minutia here...

I'd say Margitte is far more obscure. She only appears if you advise Cullen to discharge Keran from the templars in Act 1. She's a real sweetheart tough.

Modifié par MisterJB, 02 mars 2013 - 10:55 .

[TEWR]

I don't think friendship with a man who used to be a Templar counts as being a moderate towards Mages.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 mars 2013 - 11:08 .

[MisterJB]

Being willing to pay off a debt herself and enlisting help if unable means she is a good person.
The ultimate determinant factor regarding a person's morality is not his or her attitude towards mages.

[TEWR]

Of course, but when you responded with a list of Templars it was in response to my position on how they were treating the Mages themselves in the RoA. So she may be a good person towards other people, but that doesn't address the concern I was addressing. As such, her views on Mages are unknown.

Now, I won't say she's a **** to Mages. I would say that it's entirely possible she'd be a female Keran to Mages, seeing them as good people as well. Just that she's not applicable to the idea of being considered a moderate Templar since it's unknown.

And besides, she's not even a full Templar. She's a recruit. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 mars 2013 - 11:46 .

[MisterJB]

What you said, and I'm quoting was:

"All the Templars in Kirkwall are monstrous ****s and I'm not shedding
many tears over their deaths. If Cullen at least feels seriously
guilt-ridden over his complicity in a genocidal purge of Kirkwall's
Circle then I'll be content."

And I thus provided a list of templars who could not be considered monstrous and who do not deserve to die.
You failed to specify that you'd consider any templars who participated in Meredith's ROA to be monstruous which is another thing I disagree with altough that will require further reasoning beyond previous acts of kindness which I will expand upon in my reply to the greater post.

At any rate, that was a list of good people who served in the Kirkwall Chapter of the Templar Order.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

What you said, and I'm quoting was:

"All the Templars in Kirkwall are monstrous ****s and I'm not shedding
many tears over their deaths. If Cullen at least feels seriously
guilt-ridden over his complicity in a genocidal purge of Kirkwall's
Circle then I'll be content."

Which was in response to this:

I do not support Meredith's ROA altough I mantain that once called the only option to save the city is to kill the mages.

Where the RoA was clearly the subject of the snippet. Regardless, this is not something that we need spend a great deal of time arguing over.

At any rate, that was a list of good people who served in the Kirkwall Chapter of the Templar Order.

Most of whom are dead or out of the order no matter what. And the people of BSC, the decent people comprising the 5%, are also dead.

Here's a list of jackass Templars:

Meredith -- alive until the end
Ser Mettin -- can be killed or not
Ser Karras -- can survive
Ser Alrik -- can survive, if Hawke refuses Anders' quest
Hugh and Paxley -- one or both show a disdainful outlook on the Mages throughout the Acts. Can't remember
Moira -- see above where she says Meredith should've gone through with the RoA sooner.
The Templar lieutenant searching for Feynriel -- tortured and most likely killed a Dalish child hunter without batting an eyelash
The Templar lieutenant that tries to kill Hawke for Karras' death -- when Karras may have been the one to actually start the fighting.
All the cronies helping Karras, Mettin, Alrik, and the lieutenants.
The ones guarding the secret supply of lyrium.
Templars that abuse their authority which Carver and Bethany have seen.
And any Templar that participated in that RoA without so much as batting an eyelash.

Hell, Kirkwall's Templars have historically abused their power. The Spiral Eye codex talks of a Mage that went after priests and Templars who abused their power and the Staff of Violation's codex talks of how the Templars of Kirkwall when the Circle there first formed were ready to kill all Mages because they were apostates. The only redeeming part of the latter is that they admired the first First Enchanter for how she fared against a Demon.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 mars 2013 - 12:14 .