462 réponses à ce sujet

[Hazegurl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Besides, Elthina was still alive at that point, and any RoA request would still have to go trough her.

As for nothig indicating the Circle was corrupt - half of the forums would like to disagree with you.

And that half is wrong.

So all the secret meetings by blood mages that Orsino knows about does not indicate corruption within the circle?

[TEWR]

Hazegurl wrote...

So all the secret meetings by blood mages that Orsino knows about does not indicate corruption within the circle?

You mean the secret meetings that take place to oust Meredith and her like-minded cronies from the Order, but aimed to preserve the Chantry and Circle system? That on a pro-mage playthrough makes absolutely no sense, but we must regrettably accept it as canon unless DA3 says Varric lied? But even prior to Grace, were not indicative of corruption?

You mean the secret meetings that Orsino knew about and asked Hawke to investigate so as to know the involved parties so that he could bring their names to the Templars in an act of cooperation, such that the Templars won't punish any and all Mages? And if they're performing blood magic to take action against them?

The secret meetings Orsino is forced to go to a third party to investigate because Meredith has restricted where Orsino can go like that of a toddler confined in one of those baby cage thingies?

Yes, those surely indicate corruption within the Circle. Damn that Orsino for trying to work with what power he's been limited to and for doing his duty! For even attempting to work with Templars that have, in most cases, shown themselves to have less heart than a rabid mongrel dog! He's no good! No good at all!

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 mars 2013 - 12:36 .

[Hazegurl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

So all the secret meetings by blood mages that Orsino knows about does not indicate corruption within the circle?

You mean the secret meetings that take place to oust Meredith and her like-minded cronies from the Order,

You mean the demon summoning blood mages hiding within the circle? Yes.

You mean the secret meetings that Orsino knew about and asked Hawke to investigate so as to know the involved parties so that he could bring their names to the Templars in an act of cooperation, such that the Templars won't punish any and all Mages? And if they're performing blood magic to take action against them?

Yes, the meetings Orsino wanted buried and gone so Meredeith wouldn't have any ammo against mages.

The secret meetings Orsino is forced to go to a third party to investigate because Meredith has restricted where Orsino can go like that of a toddler confined in one of those baby cage thingies?

Yep, the secret meetings Orsino chose a third party to investigate instead of bringing it to Meredeith's attention so that the Templars can do their jobs effectively and not be blindsided by news of hidden blood mages later on.

Yes, those surely indicate corruption within the Circle.

Glad we agree that those meetings do indicate corruption within the circle.

[TEWR]

Hazegurl wrote...

You mean the demon summoning blood mages hiding within the circle? Yes.

Pfeh, you only fight one little tiny batch of corpses in all of BSC, summoned by one little blood mage. Then there's Grace, who was possessed the entire time because of her anger at Hawke for Decimus' death. How she is classified as a Pride Abomination when her comments say more of Desire, I do not know, but nevertheless she had let herself become possessed so as to exact revenge upon the Champion

So, the rebellion had two blood mages, one an Abomination. All the rest did not use blood magic to oppose Hawke. My God, the sheer horror of it all! Two blood mages means the entire Circle is corrupt!

Yes, the meetings Orsino wanted buried and gone so Meredeith wouldn't have any ammo against mages.

Well that's an interesting thing to assume. Fascinating how you can come to the most absurd conclusion on how he's doing this to "hide evidence" when what he's really trying to do is find sufficient evidence to go to the Templars with that both protects the innocent and condemns the guilty.

1) Orsino knows Mages are leaving the Gallows, sometimes for days on end. But that's it.

2) He does not know who in particular is involved, as they leave by night and he has been restricted to the Gallows, unable to even go past the courtyard.

3) He will say that he would and will go to the Templars with information, if and when he has the necessary information to protect the innocent and punish the guilty. So no, he's not trying to cover it up. That the game forces you to fight the entire rebellion does not in any way mean Orsino wanted it covered up.

4) He does not know if they are using blood magic, but does suspect it to be possible.

5) He will tell Hawke that if they are using blood magic, that only then should he interfere and put a stop to it. But his initial request is "Learn the nature of the meeting. If there is proof of something sinister, then you may interfere".

That is not saying "Put down all of them". That's saying "If they're doing X and it's really really bad, then action should be taken". If anything, he's asking Hawke to do the duty of the Templars, which is not the same as concealing evidence. By removing the bad eggs, he's keeping the Circle secure. Hell, concealing evidence would be more along the lines of "Guide them to keep it under wraps".

And what you seem content to ignore is that Meredith knew more then Orsino, yet didn't go to him for assistance. It's a Knight-Commander's duty to work with the First Enchanter. When Gregoir had a witness to Jowan's practicing of blood magic -- heavily implied to have been Uldred -- he did not wait for Irving to come to him about it. Gregoir went to Irving and said "Hey man, we got a problem." 

Orsino is noted by Elthina to be a reasonable man, and he supports the Chantry and Circle system. What he takes issue with is how Meredith has been running Kirkwall's Circle since her ascent to Knight-Commander -- unofficially in 9:21 Dragon, officially two years later.

Even when told of Orsino's innocence, she clutches to her paranoid delusions saying Orsino's wrapped his blood mage hooks into even the Champion. While Orsino is reasonable enough to say "Meredith is not as out there as I may have originally thought" and "She's not entirely wrong."

But kudos to you for condemning a man working within the confines of what he's been limited to and trying to paint him as a criminal, while Meredith is apparently such an innocent little lamb that does her job well. You'll do wonders for the system by supporting the genocide of a couple thousand men, women, and children for the crime of existing when Meredith is clearly in the wrong for how she acted after Elthina's death.

Yep, the secret meetings Orsino chose a third party to investigate instead of bringing it to Meredeith's attention so that the Templars can do their jobs effectively and not be blindsided by news of hidden blood mages later on.

Hah! Show me one instance of the Templars doing their jobs "effectively". They haven't once done it in the past two decades of Kirkwall's history. Under Meredith's predecessor Guylian, they did, as the Gallows are noted by Mage and Templar alike to have been a place where both parties got along well and Kirkwall's troubles were not so prevalent.

But never once have they done their jobs when Meredith took over, as she began instituting anti-mage policies the moment she took power. She even fired a Templar for delivering love letters between a Mage and his sweetheart, when at most that should've just resulted in a stern lecture.

Meredith promotes extremists to high positions within the Order. Karras, Mettin, and Alrik are all Knight-Lieutenants -- positions of authority in the Order. Knight-Captain Cullen was elevated to his position because of his extreme views and past matching Meredith's. 

Mettin was even tasked by Meredith to take some of her hand-picked zealots out "to 'purge' citizens helping Mages in Kirkwall". In other words, a death squad. And helping Mages escape the Circle, while a crime, is not punishable by death.

Karras rapes various Mages and threatens them with Tranquility. Alrik goes a step further by illegally making Mages Tranquil, such that Meredith's failure to investigate these illegal brandings -- that requires the authorization from the FE and KC both -- means she was tacitly allowing it to go on.

And you honestly think the Templars wouldn't consider all Mages guilty, or oppress them further for suspicion of involvement? If you do, then that's foolish because that's precisely what has happened to the Mages in the past in Kirkwall. The actions of the few were blown to such proportions by the Templars that they oppressed the Mages further, begetting an endless cycle.

Orsino can't go to the Templars without names, but that does not mean he does not wish to -- something he makes clear to Hawke. If he had even one name, that could save a dozen mages from torture and beatings -- that do occur in the Circle, as you overhear them happening and one Templar actually did it -- and other brutal interrogation techniques.

You seem content to believe the Templars do their duty, but if that were true the Followers of She and the Bloodragers would not have been seen in Lowtown/Hightown respectively. The Templars would've taken care of them or would've been seen working those two cases. Indeed, the Templars are present in Hightown in Act 3, yet do nothing about the blood mages and thralls infesting Kirkwall's streets.

Hawke has to do that.

If what you'd like to believe were true, Quentin would've been apprehended by the Templars when Emeric presented Meredith with the substantial evidence that Act 1 alone provided. At the very least, the Templars would've made an effort to apprehend the man before one of their own had to be killed.

But no, Quentin was allowed to stay in Kirkwall proper as long as he was due to the inaction of the Templars. And this is something Cullen even admits is the Templars' fault. Yes, Orsino kept information on Quentin from the Templars, but even so that information was not necessary for them to do their job.

It would've helped, certainly, and had the Templars been more along the lines of people whom one could turn to for assistance rather then being people that inspire fear and dread, then Orsino could not be defended for hiding it. As it stands, however, he is justified for keeping that information from Meredith. But either way, it was not necessary for them to do their job. 

In Act 1 alone, the Templars had the following information to go off of:

1) Mharen's trail stopped at the Abandoned Foundry.
2) Both Mharen and Ninette received white lilies from an unknown suitor.
3) A man fled from the foundry upon seeing Hawke, something Hawke can tell Emeric. 
4) Long after the man fled, Demons appeared. Demons that Fenris states were summoned and Hawke will tell Emeric
5) Two other women have been noted to have gone missing.
6) Ninette's ring and a hand possibly belonging to Mharen were found in the foundry.
7) Ninette has been gone a month, longer then she has vanished for in the past. That her ring is found in a foundry filled with demons suggests that she did not just "leave" her husband.
8) Mharen was a Loyalist Mage, old and not prone to going outside of the Circle. So she would not just run away and become an apostate unless there was something at work.

Regardless of whatever doubts a person may have over the nature of their deaths, the fact remains that a Demonic presence warrants the Templars' investigation of the Foundry and locking it down entirely.

But when Emeric presented his evidence to Meredith, she pawned it off to the City Guard. The City Guard then ignored it as well, despite the fact that Aveline may have seen the man who fled and fought the Demons summoned in the foundry. Even when Aveline and Hawke are told by Gascard more about the killer, they cannot even go to the Templars and say "We've found this out".

No, it takes Emeric's death for Aveline and the Templars to even consider taking action. And even then, they don't think to go to the place that Emeric investigated years prior for a lead. 

The Order in Kirkwall and the City Guard are both run by incompetent people.

Bah, my patience for such conversations is near its end. I see it as little more then drivel these days, for more often then not some Pro-Templar players never once admit the Order's shortcomings in Kirkwall whereas pro-mage posters do admit the shortcomings of Mages.

Glad we agree that those meetings do indicate corruption within the circle.

Your glibness does you no credit.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 mars 2013 - 03:39 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Bollocks.

He isn't justified. Period.
If police were to come to your house with a search warrant, the "I dont' trust the police" doesn't fly as an excuse. What you belive won't be relevant to anyone.

If police came to my house with a warrant, they'd have the legal grounds to allow themselves into my house. Meredith does not.

Does too.
Searching the Cirlce tower IS a legitimate action and it IS within her right to do it, especially considering all the mage-related activity.

If she had said "Elthina consented to this search, Orsino." then she'd have a legal reason to perform the search. If she had done anything that made her seem more approachable in her request -- instead of a demand -- to search the tower, then she'd be better off. Because it's the duty of the Knight-Commander to work with the First Enchanter by offering olive branches to him/her, not to make them feel inferior and subservient.

The police doesn't request to searhc your house. They come with a warrant and tell you they will search it .
She does have a legal reason. She does EVERY reason.

Eeerytihng you say is wrong.

Besides, Elthina was still alive at that point, and any RoA request would still have to go trough her.
As for nothig indicating the Circle was corrupt - half of the forums would like to disagree with you.

And that half is wrong.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 04 mars 2013 - 08:38 .

[Hazegurl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

You mean the demon summoning blood mages hiding within the circle? Yes.

Pfeh, you only fight one little tiny batch of corpses in all of BSC, summoned by one little blood mage. Then there's Grace, who was possessed the entire time because of her anger at Hawke for Decimus' death. How she is classified as a Pride Abomination when her comments say more of Desire, I do not know, but nevertheless she had let herself become possessed so as to exact revenge upon the Champion

So, the rebellion had two blood mages, one an Abomination. All the rest did not use blood magic to oppose Hawke. My God, the sheer horror of it all! Two blood mages means the entire Circle is corrupt!

Keep coming up with excuses. You fight blood mages throughout the game. But I guess your next excuse is that they did not all come from the circle therefore everything in the circle was gravy. 

Well that's an interesting thing to assume. Fascinating how you can come to the most absurd conclusion on how he's doing this to "hide evidence" when what he's really trying to do is find sufficient evidence to go to the Templars with that both protects the innocent and condemns the guilty.

Far from absurd. Blood mages from the circle were planting templar recruits with demons in Act 1. Nearly everyone escaping the circle were blood mages.  Then you find out later that Orsino was harboring a serial killer. Now I'm supposed to believe that he had no idea a group of blood mages were having meetings and believe he will take the info to Meredeith...because he says so. Oh right. Orsino has no reason to lie to Hawke at all. Only Templars lie.

And what you seem content to ignore is that Meredith knew more then Orsino, yet didn't go to him for assistance.

Maybe if he stop trying to instigate riots in the streets she would. Nope, I doubt it. In the end both her and Orsino had no right trying to lead anything, they were stubborn, but both were right in their own way.  However, I still have zero reason to believe either one were entirely honest about anything, hence why I was still neutral at this point and just wanted both of them to shut the hell up. When forced to make the choice, I sided with the Templars. I still knew Meredeith needed to be put down but Kirkwall needed a good cleaning as well. Just not to the extent Meredeith wanted it.  Both were right and wrong.

But kudos to you for condemning a man working within the confines of what he's been limited to and trying to paint him as a criminal, while Meredith is apparently such an innocent little lamb that does her job well. You'll do wonders for the system by supporting the genocide of a couple thousand men, women, and children for the crime of existing when Meredith is clearly in the wrong for how she acted after Elthina's death.

I can careless about Orsino. He was liar as well and cared more about the rep of mages than keeping the city streets safe. And please point out where I've said Meredeith was a sweet innocent woman? Please. I've also never said she did her job well. You really are making a lot of assumptions based on my support of the Templars. 

As for her overreaction to the bombing. I think she was right and wrong. Right, that the circle was ****ed up and demon summoning mages needed to be finally rooted and disposed of for good. She was wrong for killing all mages. If anything, they should have been in solitary confinement and every mage should be placed under some sort of test to determine if they were harboring demons. But then again, it was established early that the Templars wouldn't be able to tell and Orsino only wanted to cooperate after Meredeith made her choice. I'm sure if they were confined it would be yet another thing the mages would cry about.

Hah! Show me one instance of the Templars doing their jobs "effectively". They haven't once done it in the past two decades of Kirkwall's history. Under Meredith's predecessor Guylian, they did, as the Gallows are noted by Mage and Templar alike to have been a place where both parties got along well and Kirkwall's troubles were not so prevalent.  But never once have they done their jobs when Meredith took over, as she began instituting anti-mage policies the moment she took power. She even fired a Templar for delivering love letters between a Mage and his sweetheart, when at most that should've just resulted in a stern lecture.  Meredith promotes extremists to high positions within the Order. Karras, Mettin, and Alrik are all Knight-Lieutenants -- positions of authority in the Order. Knight-Captain Cullen was elevated to his position because of his extreme views and past matching Meredith's.

You're right, they weren't doing their jobs effectively cause they've obviously gone soft, that and combined with their lack of info cause Orsino was holding back info. A Templar should not be running around delivering stupid love letters. He/she should be safe guarding the Gallows. It was pathetic that Templars were siding with blood mages and getting themselves killed by them for their stupidity.  Cullen was the only one who displayed any type of common sense. He was stern enough to know the dangers mages posed yet reasonable enough to make rational decisions. He should have had Meredeith's job a long time ago. If he did, it wouldn't have gone as far as it did even with crazy ass Anders involvement.

And you honestly think the Templars wouldn't consider all Mages guilty, or oppress them further for suspicion of involvement? If you do, then that's foolish because that's precisely what has happened to the Mages in the past in Kirkwall. The actions of the few were blown to such proportions by the Templars that they oppressed the Mages further, begetting an endless cycle.

You list off a handful of bad Templars and think they represent the entire order. That is just extremist thinking. They do not speak for the entire order anymore than a group of blood mages speak for all mages. The anwser to a few bad cops is not to eradicate the whole police department. Root out the bad cops. The Templars abusing their power should lose their jobs and worse. And the mages practicing blood magic and demon summoning need to be rooted out as well. Neither party gets a free pass. Like I said before, the chantry failed them. Templars had no support for their problems and good mages had no protection from bad templars. 

Orsino can't go to the Templars without names, but that does not mean he does not wish to -- something he makes clear to Hawke. If he had even one name, that could save a dozen mages from torture and beatings -- that do occur in the Circle, as you overhear them happening and one Templar actually did it -- and other brutal interrogation techniques.

Once again, the sun rises on Orsino. sorry but I just don't see him the same way you do. I have no reason to believe he is 100% honest. So the logic of "because Orsino said so." is lost.

As for Templars not getting rid of random crime on the street. That is Avline's job.

The rest of your post I deleted as TL;DR. If you have to write a novel to prove your point, you're not doing a very good job at it.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 04 mars 2013 - 05:52 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

"The police doesn't request to searhc your house. They come with a warrant and tell you they will search it .
She does have a legal reason. She does EVERY reason.

Eeerytihng you say is wrong."

And that warrant is issued by a judge, who ascertains whether the cop's investigation has merit or if he is just being daft. Meredith didn't go through channels to search the tower, or else she would have invoked Elthina's authority straight away.

If a cop doesn't go through such channels, they effectively have to request entry. The alternative is forcing their way in. On one hand, that's often against the law. On another hand, it looks bad. Even thugs working for absolute monarchs needed some sort of decree from the king before they kicked your door down.

"You list off a handful of bad Templars and think they represent the entire order."

Those bad templars were also leaders. Appointing lunatics and fanatics to positions of power tends to contradict your argument that the Templar Order's extremism is not rooted in policy. Had they been grunts, that would be one thing, but giving such people authority implies a.) that the leadership approves of their behavior or b.) they do not take it into consideration.

Both options leave me with the unpleasant implication that the Templars don't care how rapaciously cruel one is, as long as their faith is strong. You'd have to be truely unintelligent not to understand the problems with such a legal philosophy, or that approach towards law enforcement.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 04 mars 2013 - 08:15 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

"The police doesn't request to searhc your house. They come with a warrant and tell you they will search it .
She does have a legal reason. She does EVERY reason.

Eeerytihng you say is wrong."

And that warrant is issued by a judge, who ascertains whether the cop's investigation has merit or if he is just being daft. Meredith didn't go through channels to search the tower, or else she would have invoked Elthina's authority straight away.

If a cop doesn't go through such channels, they effectively have to
request entry. The alternative is forcing their way in. On one hand,
that's often against the law. On another hand, it looks bad. Even thugs
working for absolute monarchs needed some sort of decree from the king
before they kicked your door down.

You assume Meredith isn't a judge in this case. Seriously, she's a KC...if a KC can't even do a simple search, then all that talk about mage opression and mages not having any privacy or rights is a bunch of rubish.

Why would she need Elthinas permission for a search to begin with?
No, Orsino wanted to run to Elthina hoping to prevent it - not because it was again the law, but because he was afraid. Afraid of what a search would find. He knew.

Those bad templars were also leaders. Appointing lunatics and fanatics to positions of power tends to contradict your argument that the Templar Order's extremism is not rooted in policy. Had they been grunts, that would be one thing, but giving such people authority implies a.) that the leadership approves of their behavior or b.) they do not take it into consideration.

Meredith was driven insane by a magical artifact.
She nad Kirkwall are an anomaly, not the norm.
And yet we see that even in peacefull Circles such as Ferelden, mages cause trouble.

Both options leave me with the unpleasant implication that the Templars don't care how rapaciously cruel one is, as long as their faith is strong. You'd have to be truely unintelligent not to understand the problems with such a legal philosophy, or that approach towards law enforcement.

The Chantry wants obedience, just like ANY authority wants it.
Police wants it. Army wants it. The state wants it. Kings want it. Nobles want it. Your boss at work wants it.
Nothing new under the sun.

[CrimsonZephyr]

"You assume Meredith isn't a judge in this case. Seriously, she's a KC...if a KC can't even do a simple search, then all that talk about mage opression and mages not having any privacy or rights is a bunch of rubish.

Why would she need Elthinas permission for a search to begin with?
No, Orsino wanted to run to Elthina hoping to prevent it - not because it was again the law, but because he was afraid. Afraid of what a search would find. He knew."

Because Meredith reports to Elthina. The Templars are subordinate to the Chantry in matters of law enforcement. And who cares why Orsino stonewalled Meredith. Even if someone is guilty, breaking legal protocol in an effort to pursue that aim will eventually backfire. If Meredith wanted to search the Gallows, she should have simply explained her reasoning to Elthina, not make a scene in the middle of Lowtown. Are you really wondering why the Chantry would not want the Templars to have unfettered latitude? Are you really that daft? The only time Elthina intervened on Orsino's behalf was when Meredith was ready to have Orsino killed for speaking before the nobility. It was disproportionate and she reined her in.

"Meredith was driven insane by a magical artifact.
She nad Kirkwall are an anomaly, not the norm.
And yet we see that even in peacefull Circles such as Ferelden, mages cause trouble."

Not just Meredith, but Mettin, the guy who was willing to execute a woman for giving her mage cousin a hot meal and a place to stay, and then try to murder witnesses. Or Alrik, who turned mage women into Tranquil sex slaves. Or Kerras, who rapes Alain and blackmails him with the threat of Tranquility if he told anyone. All three have the rank of Knight-Lieutenant or higher. Even Meredith was pretty bad before the idol. She had mages lashed thirty times because they spoke to members of the public.

In the Ferelden Circle, mages cause trouble because their leadership and the Templars trusted Uldred far too much. Uldred, the vaunted blood-mage catcher was a blood mage himself.

"
The Chantry wants obedience, just like ANY authority wants it.
Police wants it. Army wants it. The state wants it. Kings want it. Nobles want it. Your boss at work wants it.
Nothing new under the sun."

Let me put it this way: when the monarch is reasonable, even the most loyal, most obedient servant will one day earn his ire not for following his directives, but due to the manner in which they are followed. Discretion is the better part of obedience, and if in following his master's orders, the servant causes uproar and chaos, then that servant will one day find himself deprived of his duties or his head. If you think people in positions of authority, who apply that authority reasonably, think only of obedience, you really are an idiot.

[Lazy Jer]

To answer the OP's question:

Yeah people have sided with the Templars, as I'm sure the eight pages of replies to this thread indicates, and no it's not necessarily evil to do so.  The choice is constructed in this game to be neither evil nor good.  The choice itself is not evil or good, it's the reasoning behind that choice that is evil or good, or neither.

For instance some may choose the Templars because of the risk (real or perceived) that blood magic or blood mages present to the regular folks of the world.  Some may choose the Templars because they just like offing mages.  Those choices are good and evil respectively (IMHO, of course).  Some people might choose the mages because they feel that the circle will inherently lead to oppression because it is constructed in a way that gives mages too little power or the Templars to much chance to abuse that power.  Other might choose the mages side because they just like offing Templars.  Again, examples of good and evil reasons.

Then there are the more or less neutral reasons:  For example in my own  ending, I chose the mages, not for any grandiose reasons of freedom for all and fighting for the oppressed as much as the fact that my character's sister Bethany was in the circle, and choosing the Templars meant choosing to kill her.  The fact that a lot of people in the circle were someone's sister, brother, mother or child did play a lesser part in my decision, but the bulk of it was to protect my character's family.  Which I regard is being self-interested enough to pull it into the Neutral category.

[Lazy Jer]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You assume Meredith isn't a judge in this case. Seriously, she's a KC...if a KC can't even do a simple search, then all that talk about mage opression and mages not having any privacy or rights is a bunch of rubish.

Why would she need Elthinas permission for a search to begin with?
No, Orsino wanted to run to Elthina hoping to prevent it - not because it was again the law, but because he was afraid. Afraid of what a search would find. He knew.

Meredith was driven insane by a magical artifact.
She nad Kirkwall are an anomaly, not the norm.
And yet we see that even in peacefull Circles such as Ferelden, mages cause trouble.

The Chantry wants obedience, just like ANY authority wants it.
Police wants it. Army wants it. The state wants it. Kings want it. Nobles want it. Your boss at work wants it.
Nothing new under the sun.

First you really don't know Orsino's reasons for wanting to prevent the search.  He does make the point that "...my people cannot sneeze without you accusing them of blood magic..."  Per your own admission Meredith was driven insane by the artifact, and we do see her finding blood magic where it doesn't exist, she even accused Hawke of it in the end.

He might have been hiding actual blood mages, or he might have been hiding people who he knows Meredith would accuse of blood magic regardless of the facts and have them summarily executed.  In any case, his request to involve the Grand Cleric was not an unreasonable one, regardless of his motives.  It's part of due process.  It's the reason why they put her in charge in the first place.  Were the Grand Cleric brought into the discussion she could have done something (which at that point would probably be to tell Hawke to handle it, since it's a game and all).  But Meredith wouldn't allow it.  She overstepped her bounds.

[Hazegurl]

Lazy Jer, thanks for the input. I like your reasons for siding with the mages. You almost forget that Bethany could be the biggest reason for siding with the Mages. Although I sided with the Templars. It did add an element of excitement wondering if she would be okay. I liked the idea of sparring her life. My Hawke loved his family. I may have had some problems with DA2 but I think some elements of the story were well thought out.

[dragonflight288]

Hazegurl wrote...

Lazy Jer, thanks for the input. I like your reasons for siding with the mages. You almost forget that Bethany could be the biggest reason for siding with the Mages. Although I sided with the Templars. It did add an element of excitement wondering if she would be okay. I liked the idea of sparring her life. My Hawke loved his family. I may have had some problems with DA2 but I think some elements of the story were well thought out.

Okay...I'm trying to figure this out here. I mean no disrespect, but I am curious as to motivations.

We all know the Right of Annulment is the systematic murder of every single man, woman and child in a Circle. It was originally instituted when a Circle had a blood mage and abomination problem and the Knight Commander of that Circle worked his hardest to track down the culprits, but the entire circle was uncooperative and supposedly was supporting the guilty, and therefore he killed them all.

In Gregoire's circumstances, we had abominations pretty much pouring out of the woodwork and he requested the Right of Annulment and some reinforcements, but is willing to take the First Enchanter's word over Cullen's, one of his own templars, that things are back to normal. He calls off the right of annullment after he sees Irving is safe and Irving gives his word.

(On a side note, I think their relationship is like quarling brothers. They are at each other's throats at all times, but still stand up for each other and take each other at their word.)

In the case of Meredith and Kirkwall, Meredith called for the Right of Annullment the very moment she had the legal power to call it. Literally seconds before she gained that power, all she was trying to do was search the tower. If Kerras lives, we learn that Meredith had been appealing for the Right for some time, and since Elthina refused to allow it, Meredith was appealing to the Divine instead.

We know that the Chantry was destroyed and Elthina was killed by an apostate who had no connection whatsoever with the Kirkwall Circle (as by the beginning of Act 3 the mage underground had pretty much been destroyed and Thrask's rebellion was defeated.) Meredith's reasons for calling the Right of Annulment was that "...a mage destroyed the chantry. The people will demand blood."

That is her entire reasoning for killing every single man, woman and child in the Circle. A circle Bethany happens to be apart of. Meredith doesn't try to appeal to Orsino hiding anyone. She does't try to explain that she's afraid that there are sympathizers in the circle who would condone and repeat what Anders had just done. She doesn't talk about how corrupt the circle is. She just talks about a hypothetical mob that never formed.

By supporting Meredith, you just supported killing your own sister, by virtue of her being a mage and in the Circle. Whether you accept their surrender later on (and Gaider said they were most likely made tranquil) you still supported killing your own sister at the moment you supported Meredith.

In my mind, adding in that we are well aware of the idol (post-game) and that Meredith had been trying for some time to get the authority to murder every mage in Kirkwall, only Elthina was stonewalling her, I personally believe that her desire to search the Gallows was not to look for individual blood mages and punish the individuals, but to look for evidence that she could bring to Elthina to try once again to get the Right of Annulment. I think Meredith wanted to search for an excuse to kill everyone. Taking that into account, I feel Orsino had every right to demand Elthina be the arbiter. Orsino wanted to go to the grand cleric, and I honestly thought Meredith was ready to attack and kill him right there in the street to keep the Grand Cleric from getting involved...before Anders blew things out of proportion (pun intended.) 

By your own admission you felt a sense of care for Bethany (which is easy to do. She's a pleasant person) and was worried about her while you were slaughtering all her fellows for the high crime....of being born mages and their magic made them an accessory to Anders' crime.

I understand that the whole situation is subjective to the
individual gamer, and I am genuinely curious. What was your motivation
for supporting Meredith while your sister was a Circle Mage?

[TEWR]

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
Keep coming up with excuses. You fight blood
mages throughout the game.[/quote]

Which was not in your original assertion. You were talking about the BSC rebellion against Meredith, not the game itself. I applaud how easily you've moved the goalposts now. Keep it up!



[quote]But I guess your next excuse is that they did not all come from the circle therefore everything in the circle was gravy.  [/quote]

Well let's look at them all, shall we?

1) Tarohne -- Apostate, elsewise pray tell explain how a Circle Mage would be able to have a private sanctuary and hiding away from the Templars with them unawares?

2) Decimus -- Apostate originally fromStarkhaven's Circle who broke free of the Templars escorting him to Kirkwall. Even Thrask cites him as an apostate.

3) Quentin -- also an apostate.

4) Idunna -- never a part of the Circle, eventually repents if spared when the Circle takes her.

5) Lady Harimann -- was never a Mage at all, but was granted the powers of one by Allure who was controlling her.

6) Hadriana -- Tevinter noble and thus not applicable to the Circle system. 

7) Gascard DuPuis -- minor noble from Orlais, not applicable to the Circle. Apprentice to Quentin, an apostate.

8) Danarius -- also a Tevinter noble and thus not applicable to the supposed "corruption" of the Circle.

9) Huon -- a Blood Mage from the Circle, driven insane by the torture the Templars did to him -- beatings, refusing to let him see his wife, literally dragging him away in chains, etc. He is at fault for what he did, but so too are the Templars that broke his mind.

10) Grace -- a blood mage who was most likely possessed during the BSC arc.

[quote]Far from absurd. Blood mages from the circle were planting templar recruits with demons in Act 1.[/quote]

No, they were not from the Circle. 

Tarohne was an apostate. Twist facts to suit your argument if you want, you only make yourself have little to offer in these discussions. You have absolutely no proof that Tarohne was a Circle Mage.

Given how she had to use connections at a brothel where Templar recruits would go to even find people she considered "suitable vessels" and how she was hiding away in the recesses of Darktown for weeks and weeks then it's apparent that she was not a Circle Mage. 

Also the fact that none of the Templars even consider Tarohne to be a part of the Circle. And the fact that if she was a Circle Mage, they would've noticed her missing and been upon it.

If they were competent, anyway.


[quote]Maybe if he stop trying to instigate riots in the streets she would.[/quote]

Maybe if she wasn't taking over the political spectrum when that's illegal for the Templars to do -- as Irminric had to give up his claims to his noble right -- then Orsino wouldn't have done that in the first place.

Only one person with Templar training ever went on to be a noble and that's Alistair, but he was never a full Templar to begin with. He never took his vows or consumed lyrium. 

Maybe if Elthina had actually done her damn job, as well, by bringing Meredith under control then Orsino wouldn't have had to bring what Meredith was doing to light.

[quote] When forced to make the choice, I sided with the Templars. I still knew Meredeith needed to be put down but Kirkwall needed a good cleaning as well. Just not to the extent Meredeith wanted it.  Both were right and wrong.[/quote]

"Just not to the extent Meredith wanted it".

Hah! Anyone who sides with the Templars in an RoA under the delusion they can pick and choose what Mages survive is a fool, because that's not how it works.

An RoA is defined by the complete and utter extermination of every Mage in a Circle. That Hawke can spare 3 or potentially 4 Mages out of 3,000 -- who are just going to be made Tranquil soon after anyway more then likely, per DG -- does not change the idea that an RoA is a purge of the Circle entirely.

Gregoir's acceptance of the survivors is an incredible exception to that rule due to not only his relationship to Irving but to what's happening outside the Circle's walls.

The Blight.

You've supported the utter genocide of hundreds upon hundreds of men, women, and children for the crime of being a Mage innocent of Anders' act and for defending themselves against something that was unwarranted, unethical, and unjust.

David Gaider even said that Meredith would be called to the Divine's mat because morally/ethically she was required to send word to the Divine even if legally she wasn't.

Worse still, Meredith's reason -- and Hawke's -- is that they're doing this because a mob will call for blood. Taking into account how no mob ever does form, you are not supposed to cater to a mob's demands. It only empowers them and makes them feel like they rule the city.

[quote]I can careless about Orsino. He was liar as well and cared more about the rep of mages than keeping the city streets safe.[/quote]

One life to save a thousand. This is what's in play here, not from Orsino's mind but from my own objective outlook. Orsino did not have to reveal things about Quentin to the Templars, for they had enough evidence in Act 1 to warrant an investigation. His information would have helped, but I doubt the Templars would act rationally in regards to the Mages of the Circle.

But if a few lives spared the lives of Mages from being killed by an entire army of malicious Templars, I cannot fault him for his actions. All lives are inherently equal in worth. 


[quote]And please point out where I've said Meredeith was a sweet innocent woman? Please. I've also never said she did her job well. You really are making a lot of assumptions based on my support of the Templars.[/quote]

Considering you justify much of the Templars actions and inactions and ascribe blame to the Mages even where it's not warranted and believe a purge of people innocent of a crime committed by a madman is the only logical choice then I see no reason to believe otherwise regarding Meredith.

That you find her course of action to be the "correct" one is reprehensible.

[quote]As for her overreaction to the bombing. I think she was right and wrong. Right, that the circle was ****ed up and demon summoning mages needed to be finally rooted and disposed of for good. She was wrong for killing all mages. If anything, they should have been in solitary confinement and every mage should be placed under some sort of test to determine if they were harboring demons.[/quote]

You mean what Orsino advocated provided she revoked the RoA? Where every Mage would be imprisoned, she could conduct her search, and if she wanted Orsino would even help her? My God, it's sheer genius! It's so damn logical! It's a shame Meredith wanted to purge the entire Circle for so long and was practically having an orgasm when she could go through with it.

As for a "test" there are only two methods to determine if a person is possessed: being a blood mage where you can detect the scent of sulphur in a person's blood or attacking a Mage and seeing if the Demon defends itself.

The former is the only valid approach, as you'd be hard-pressed to differentiate the latter from being "Normal Mage defending himself" or "Demon defending himself".

Meredith had the legal authority to grant permission to her request to search the Tower. She did not need to call for an RoA and neither did Orsino even need to offer the search to her as a means to appease her. She could've searched the tower if she wished, but chose not to.

The only reason she wanted to search the tower was so she could bring it to Elthina so that she could purge the Circle entirely. She wanted evidence to call for the deaths of all the Mages. She was not intent on keeping the Circle secure.

We find out through Karras that she's been going over Elthina's head to the Divine pleading for an RoA -- where she will certainly be heavily editing what she informs the Divine -- which means that the search was not to root out blood mages, but to gather evidence that might change Elthina's mind.

That is not an earnest desire to protect the Mages. That's a desire to kill them all. Orsino's desire to see Elthina and have her oversee their argument was logical and reasonable, all things considered. If she had approved the search, Orsino would have followed through with it.

Possibly asking Elthina for some measure of security that the Templars wouldn't overstep their bounds in the search by say.... beating Mages or calling for an RoA or whatever.

Elthina herself notes Orsino to be a reasonable man.



[quote]But then again, it was established early that the Templars wouldn't be able to tell and Orsino only wanted to cooperate after Meredeith made her choice. I'm sure if they were confined it would be yet another thing the mages would cry about.[/quote]

Yeah right... if anything they might take issue with Meredith remaining in charge because she called for an RoA when none was needed, not for their "imprisonment" that the First Enchanter suggested so as to keep them alive.


[quote]You're right, they weren't doing their jobs effectively cause they've obviously gone soft,[/quote]

Soft? Are you out of your goddamn mind? You must be if you think that's why they couldn't do their job.

Most of the Templars of Kirkwall were abusive pricks who couldn't care less about doing their jobs. The Templars beat mages routinely for even talking to citizens, rape them, beat Tranquil, illegally make Mages Tranquil and rape them, and even torture/kill people for information or because they were told to.

Which while assisting a Mage is a crime, is not a crime punishable by death.

Meredith herself told one of her extremist Templars to take other extremists and "purge" anyone that assisted Mages. And Meredith is to be held accountable for Alrik's crimes because she could not have failed to notice the growing number of Tranquil made such without both her seal and Orsino's -- the lore tells us that's how the RoT is enacted. It takes a First Enchanter's and Knight-Commander's say-so to go through with it.

They only wanted to flaunt and abuse their authority over the Mages.

You are seriously not worth discussing this with, because you deleted the rest of my post as TL;DR and then insult my position by saying "You're just not doing a good job".

If you hadn't done that... hell if you'd paid attention in-game you'd have seen that the Templars did have enough information to warrant an investigation in Act 1 alone.

I take the care to read every single goddamn post any poster, pro-Mage or pro-Templar, writes out when I have the time. MisterJB and I have had some incredibly long ass conversations about singular topics over the course of pages and pages, but we take the time to read it out because we respect each other's viewpoints even if we disagree on the topic itself. I even did the same thing for your posts.

If you cannot extend the same courtesy, then congratulations. There's nothing more to discuss after I'm done with this post. Because what you want isn't a discussion. You desire people validating your choice.

[quote]A Templar should not be running around delivering stupid love letters.[/quote]

Samson did his job as a Templar while still allowing Mages to have their little escapades. They were not hurting anyone. Fact: Mages will inevitably seek out the company of other Mages. Sometimes even Templars 

Firing him was out of line. At the very least, a stern lecture should've been given and maybe a week's suspension. At most, sending him on a dead-end job somewhere. Even Gregoir made certain to send a Templar that was very crude around female Mages and Templars out to the Bannorn on a dead-end job searching for apostates.

It killed two birds with one stone: Removed the problem Templar while still making use of him. 

[quote]He/she should be safe guarding the Gallows. It was pathetic that Templars were siding with blood mages and getting themselves killed by them for their stupidity. [/quote]

Best Served Cold itself was written to be an absurd quest where if you're Pro-mage not a goddamn thing makes sense.

[quote]If he (Cullen) did, it wouldn't have gone as far as it did even with crazy ass Anders involvement. [/quote]

Hey, you say something worth agreeing on! It's about damn time, I say.

[quote]You list off a handful of bad Templars and think they represent the entire order. That is just extremist thinking. They do not speak for the entire order anymore than a group of blood mages speak for all mages. The anwser to a few bad cops is not to eradicate the whole police department. Root out the bad cops.[/quote]

Says the person who thinks the solution to a few bad Mages is a complete purge of the Circle. 

I have never once advocated the entire dissolution of the Templar Order. Great strawman!

What I have done is advocate that the Templar Order in Kirkwall is too corrupt to be sided with, much less to trust to do their duty in the true sense before the RoA, during the RoA*, and after the RoA.

I have always advocated the Templars' necessity because I know the dangers Mages pose. I've even offered reforms to the system that in theory would work but in practice is unknown, but if they were tried out would grant a better perspective on how to make a more ideal system.

*During would be actually refusing to take part in the Annulment or even fighting against Meredith.

[quote]As for Templars not getting rid of random crime on the street. That is Avline's job. [/quote]

It's Aveline's job when Demons and Blood Mages are not the concern, which in Act 3 two out of the three criminal gangs involve either the former or latter. The Followers of She are led by a Demon and it's clear by the note you find that Demons are involved. The Bloodragers are blood mage apostates that enthrall citizens with their magic and reside in Hightown where the ****ing Templars have some of their men for crying out loud.

Aveline requested Templar assistance in Act 2 so they could stand a better chance against these threats and keep Kirkwall safe from them. Meredith refused, until Act 3 where she wanted to consolidate power -- and thus support -- under her reign.

Even in Ferelden, Templars investigated rogue Mages acting as criminals in the city's streets. Knight-Commander Guylian even said that was part of their duty.

But once again, you've failed to actually want a discussion to happen because you pick and choose what you read.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 mars 2013 - 06:07 .

[IanPolaris]

Ethereal,

I largely agree with you (as you already know), but there are some posters and people that have made an emotional decision to side with the Templars largely (IMHO anyway) because they were tricked into doing so by the way DA2 was presented. (All mages are insane bloodmages, hurr-durr. All mages will backstab you matter what...hurr, durr. All mages will turn your mother into Frankenstein, hurr durr). Even the Devs admitted they went overboard in trying to "correct" for what they felt was a too mage friendly DAO.

It seems to me that once someone has made this emotional identification, no amount of logic or factual reasoning is going to do any good, since such people are largely looking for a rationalization to justify an emotionally made choice.

Just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.

-Polaris

[Lazy Jer]

IanPolaris wrote...

Ethereal,

I largely agree with you (as you already know), but there are some posters and people that have made an emotional decision to side with the Templars largely (IMHO anyway) because they were tricked into doing so by the way DA2 was presented. (All mages are insane bloodmages, hurr-durr. All mages will backstab you matter what...hurr, durr. All mages will turn your mother into Frankenstein, hurr durr). Even the Devs admitted they went overboard in trying to "correct" for what they felt was a too mage friendly DAO.

It seems to me that once someone has made this emotional identification, no amount of logic or factual reasoning is going to do any good, since such people are largely looking for a rationalization to justify an emotionally made choice.

Just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.

-Polaris

I would say that the decision at the end is kinda difficult to make without consulting the emotions.  With the mages the emotions come into play when realizing what they loose simply by being mages.  With the Templars it's the fear of letting someone like Quentin out into the outside world.

[IanPolaris]

Lazy Jer wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Ethereal,

I largely agree with you (as you already know), but there are some posters and people that have made an emotional decision to side with the Templars largely (IMHO anyway) because they were tricked into doing so by the way DA2 was presented. (All mages are insane bloodmages, hurr-durr. All mages will backstab you matter what...hurr, durr. All mages will turn your mother into Frankenstein, hurr durr). Even the Devs admitted they went overboard in trying to "correct" for what they felt was a too mage friendly DAO.

It seems to me that once someone has made this emotional identification, no amount of logic or factual reasoning is going to do any good, since such people are largely looking for a rationalization to justify an emotionally made choice.

Just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.

-Polaris

I would say that the decision at the end is kinda difficult to make without consulting the emotions.  With the mages the emotions come into play when realizing what they loose simply by being mages.  With the Templars it's the fear of letting someone like Quentin out into the outside world.

I would say rather that the game is written to appeal to the emotions in one particular way when one's instincts especially if one looked at it rationally (as Ethereal and others lay out) pretty clearly show this is not a grey choice at all.

Meredith wants to slaughter an entire group of people (the Circle of Mages) for a crime they didn't commit.  She doesn't even bother to hide her eagerness to do so, nor (if you do any digging at all) does she try to hide that she has been seeking to kill all mages for quite a while before this and only the Grand Cleric was stopping her.

Kind of hard to see how picking her side is anything other than the evil choice no matter what any mage or any group of mages may have done prior.

-Polaris

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
I would say rather that the game is written to appeal to the emotions in one particular way when one's instincts especially if one looked at it rationally (as Ethereal and others lay out) pretty clearly show this is not a grey choice at all.

Meredith wants to slaughter an entire group of people (the Circle of Mages) for a crime they didn't commit.  She doesn't even bother to hide her eagerness to do so, nor (if you do any digging at all) does she try to hide that she has been seeking to kill all mages for quite a while before this and only the Grand Cleric was stopping her.

Kind of hard to see how picking her side is anything other than the evil choice no matter what any mage or any group of mages may have done prior.

Bollocks.

It like you didn't even play the game.
The entire conversation before Anders blows up the Chantry - where she explicitly expresses regret for having to resort to a total tower search and pleads - BEGS - for another solution clearly shows that she does care and she's at the verge of an emotional breakdown.

[Lotion Soronarr]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

"You assume Meredith isn't a judge in this case. Seriously, she's a KC...if a KC can't even do a simple search, then all that talk about mage opression and mages not having any privacy or rights is a bunch of rubish.

Why would she need Elthinas permission for a search to begin with?
No, Orsino wanted to run to Elthina hoping to prevent it - not because it was again the law, but because he was afraid. Afraid of what a search would find. He knew."

Because Meredith reports to Elthina. The Templars are subordinate to the Chantry in matters of law enforcement. And who cares why Orsino stonewalled Meredith. Even if someone is guilty, breaking legal protocol in an effort to pursue that aim will eventually backfire. If Meredith wanted to search the Gallows, she should have simply explained her reasoning to Elthina, not make a scene in the middle of Lowtown. Are you really wondering why the Chantry would not want the Templars to have unfettered latitude? Are you really that daft? The only time Elthina intervened on Orsino's behalf was when Meredith was ready to have Orsino killed for speaking before the nobility. It was disproportionate and she reined her in.

That doesn't mean she needs her AOK for every little thing and has no autonomy. In fact, the only thing we know requires the Devines approval is Annulment (and maybe mass Tranquilisation).

Heck, even tranqulising a mage doesn't require Elthinas consent.So why would something far less serious - like a search - require it?

You keep saying a tower search is illegal without ANYTHING to support such a claim. Orsinos bitc*** is no proof of any legal protocols being broken.

"The Chantry wants obedience, just like ANY authority wants it.
Police wants it. Army wants it. The state wants it. Kings want it. Nobles want it. Your boss at work wants it.
Nothing new under the sun."

Let me put it this way: when the monarch is reasonable, even the most loyal, most obedient servant will one day earn his ire not for following his directives, but due to the manner in which they are followed. Discretion is the better part of obedience, and if in following his master's orders, the servant causes uproar and chaos, then that servant will one day find himself deprived of his duties or his head. If you think people in positions of authority, who apply that authority reasonably, think only of obedience, you really are an idiot.

What?

You are reading way too much into templar recruitment.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
One life to save a thousand. This is what's in play here, not from Orsino's mind but from my own objective outlook. Orsino did not have to reveal things about Quentin to the Templars, for they had enough evidence in Act 1 to warrant an investigation. His information would have helped, but I doubt the Templars would act rationally in regards to the Mages of the Circle.

But if a few lives spared the lives of Mages from being killed by an entire army of malicious Templars, I cannot fault him for his actions. All lives are inherently equal in worth.

Aha! Tehre we go. Hypocrisy at it's finest.


So it's OK for mages to endanger the lives of others.
It's OK for them to sacrifice mundanes to save mages.
It's OK for them to usemistrust templars as an excuse to do illegal things.
It's ok fro them to kill a few to save the many.

But it's NOT ok for mundanes to use mistrust mages as an excuse to do illegal things.
It's not OK for mundanes to sacrifice a few mages to save many?

The only reason she wanted to search the tower was so she could bring it to Elthina so that she could purge the Circle entirely. She wanted evidence to call for the deaths of all the Mages. She was not intent on keeping the Circle secure.

Prove it.

That is not an earnest desire to protect the Mages.

Desire to protect mundanes doesn't count then?

Because what you want isn't a discussion. You desire people validating your choice.

Hehe. It's funny you pretend you have some higher and nobler purpose.

[TEWR]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Aha! Tehre we go. Hypocrisy at it's finest.

I've never opposed the Circle system. I've opposed how it's run and said that it needs serious reforms, with limited freedoms inherent to all Mages. 

That is not the same thing. I acknowledge the "one life for a thousand" idea it operates off of. I just consider it to not be done right.

So it's OK for mages to endanger the lives of others.

 

In the Orsino-Quentin case, he was not really endangering the lives of others. His information, while it would've been helpful, was not necessary. If his information was the only thing that would've led to Quentin -- which isn't the case -- then he'd be endangering their lives in my eyes.  

The Templars were endangering the lives of others by failing to investigate when they had the relevant information to warrant it from the Act 1 side quest. 

It's OK for them to sacrifice mundanes to save mages.

In certain cases, maybe, depending on the nature of the scenario.

Not every scenario is the same. I would not advocate a mage using blood magic and sacrificing a peasant farmer's family to save a group of Mages.

I would not support Orsino's hiding of information if Gregoir or even Cullen had been the Knight-Commander, because they are reasonable, stern, but ultimately fair -- even if Cullen's words are not appropriate, I can at least sense his general intent.

But with Meredith, it is okay for him to hide such information. She is not reasonable, she is not stern, and she is not fair. She is unreasonable, illogical, oppressive, and cruel. And the idol did not help matters.

I said that from my own outlook, Orsino's hiding of his connection to Quentin, who because he wasn't caught by the incompetent Templars was able kill a few noblewomen with no real social ties, saved the lives of thousands of Mages.

He was not sacrificing the lives of Leandra and Alessa. They died, but not out of some sacrifice he enacted.

Their deaths, however, do serve the one life for a thousand outlook. But the concept does become skewed, as I said on the previous page, because of the personal connection to the player/Hawke. 

I never once claimed Orsino was thinking "if a few mundanes die but we survive, it's worth it". He does not even claim that. What he does claim is that he hid his connection to Quentin out of fear of an RoA, which is only part of the concept of "one life to save a thousand".

He was not saying "I hid it thinking that any deaths that happened out there would be preferable to those in here".

And I still maintain that the Templars are at fault. They had the evidence from Act 1 that was sufficient and they ignored it.

It's tough to appropriately phrase my feelings. I do not fault his hiding of the information, I look at all the lives it did save, look at how the Templars are the real people at fault for Quentin going as far as he did, and in that scenario find him to be justified -- though I would not encourage it being repeated elsewhere.

It's OK for them to usemistrust templars as an excuse to do illegal things.

Not mistrust. Abuse. If the Templars are abusing their authority over the Mages, then it's okay for them to fight back. If you treat a man like a beast, don't be surprised if he plays the part to get back at you. 

It's ok fro them to kill a few to save the many.

But it's NOT ok for mundanes to use mistrust mages as an excuse to do illegal things.

I've never once cited the Circle system as being illegal. Oppressive, certainly, but not illegal. I have taken issue with how it's run, but that's another matter entirely.

I side with Mages for them being in the right, not from them being in need of some Anders-ized notion of total freedom with no Templars out in the world. 

That's dangerous (and something very few pro-Mage people support, if any). I support limited freedoms.

Prove it.

Ser Karras, if alive in Act 3, says that Meredith sent word to the Divine for an RoA after Meredith was repeatedly refused by Elthina.

She cites Hawke as being a thrall of Orsino's when Hawke says that Orsino wasn't involved, being utterly incapable of admitting she was wrong about the First Enchanter when Orsino himself admitted he was wrong about Meredith when told of how Meredith wasn't involved.

And of course, when she gets the authority to grant permission to her search, the first thing she does is call for an Annulment to appease a hypothetical mob when the sane and logical course of action was to gather the Mages in the Circle, lock down the Gallows to protect them from a possible mob, and instruct the City Guard and Champion to control the city should a mob actually arise along with keeping Anders preferably alive to walk the hangman's noose for his crimes.

And if she wanted, to use Anders as a reason to perform the search so as to root out any connections to the Circle, if they existed, in that particular crime.

They don't, but that's not what matters. Orsino didn't need to offer the olive branch to her at that time, she could've gone through with it if she wanted. She had the authority then and there, but went to "It's killing time!"

Along with all her lines after the RoA starts that makes her sound happy at the prospect of killing the Mages. Along with her rationale for what happens afterwards being the wrong mindset. No Meredith, making the Circle "know fear" is not the correct course. It's rebuilding and learning from what happened, like Gregoir and Irving say.

Desire to protect mundanes doesn't count then?

Not when the reason you're performing the RoA is because you really just want to kill people born as Mages, especially in an area with an extremely thin Veil.

That goes against the ideals of the Templar Order. If you're going over your superior's head who views the RoA as unnecessary to her superior, then your reasons for wanting the search are not really noble. What you're really looking for are reasons to support your desire.

No matter what sob story "it breaks my heart" reasoning you use to try and get people to believe you. The fact that she shifts from angry to sad to angry in the blink of an eye just... makes her seem unbelievable when she gives that line.

Hehe. It's funny you pretend you have some higher and nobler purpose.

I seek a discussion. I don't care what choices people make in their games, but I do enjoy a serious discussion on the matter that doesn't ignore what other people present.

You, like Hazegurl, are not worth discussing the matter with because you cherrypick what you respond to or deem to be lore. And the both of you insult people on the other side. 

Dave of Canada, MisterJB, Lazy Jer, DPSSOC, EmperorSahlertz, and so on are all pro-Templar or moderate people that I can enjoy a discussion with on the matter with opposing viewpoints/arguments because they take the topic seriously and reply to what people say. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 mars 2013 - 12:20 .

[Oceanman]

very sorry to stray off subject, but I am new here. And I was curiuos on those project things. If I download them, are they installed into my dragon age origins? I was hoping to find out.

[TEWR]

Oceanman wrote...

very sorry to stray off subject, but I am new here. And I was curiuos on those project things. If I download them, are they installed into my dragon age origins? I was hoping to find out.

No problem. I can't particularly help you myself as I don't have my PC version installed -- which is what you'd need, obviously =P -- but projects should have a comments section where you could pose questions. You could also try PMing the creators of the projects.

There's also the Dragon Age Nexus, which could help you out more and has more stuff to download.

[Silfren]

One thing that I don't think gets enough attention in this eternal debate is that of mages who are good, moral people, especially those who are genuine Andrastians and believe that magic falls under the "with great power come great responsibilities" category, who loathe blood magic in all its forms. More mages like Wynne, essentially.

Supposedly, magic is so volatile and demons are so drawn to it, that mages are at constant risk of possession no matter how strong-willed or morally righteous they are. Even when they sleep. Supposedly even mages with the best intentions are perpetually at risk of being over-whelmed and warped into a twisted meatsuit. It's supposed to be a risk that comes as part and parcel of being a mage, as much a part of the overall problem as the potential of mages to become morally corrupt.

This is one of the main reasons I can't support the Templars or the Circle in its present form. The game makes this one of the Chantry's claims, but offers nothing to actually support it. Evidence of absence and all that, but I would expect the writers to have included some evidence within the game to support this aspect of magehood. That they didn't, I'm left to believe that drawing the conclusion that the Chantry's claims are drastically overstated is a reasonably lore-friendly one.

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

No matter what sob story "it breaks my heart" reasoning you use to try and get people to believe you. The fact that she shifts from angry to sad to angry in the blink of an eye just... makes her seem unbelievable when she gives that line.

That moment was one of my biggest WTF moments of the game.  I understand that Gaider was so impressed with the voice actress's delivery that he decided it just HAD to be included.

I don't get what he was thinking, in that one.  I agree that it's a great line on its own, but it's totally off-the-wall in that entire scene, being contrary to everything else she's saying, and to her overall nature.  Not ONCE in the entire game was she ever portrayed this way, so it came out of left field to see her suddenly so emotionally torn.  The whole bit, as you point out, of going from rabid-angry, to emotionally broken, to rabid-angry again in an eyeblink...wow, Gaider, what were you thinking here, really?