462 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

Silfren wrote...

One thing that I don't think gets enough attention in this eternal debate is that of mages who are good, moral people, especially those who are genuine Andrastians and believe that magic falls under the "with great power come great responsibilities" category, who loathe blood magic in all its forms. More mages like Wynne, essentially.

Supposedly, magic is so volatile and demons are so drawn to it, that mages are at constant risk of possession no matter how strong-willed or morally righteous they are. Even when they sleep. Supposedly even mages with the best intentions are perpetually at risk of being over-whelmed and warped into a twisted meatsuit. It's supposed to be a risk that comes as part and parcel of being a mage, as much a part of the overall problem as the potential of mages to become morally corrupt.

This is one of the main reasons I can't support the Templars or the Circle in its present form. The game makes this one of the Chantry's claims, but offers nothing to actually support it. Evidence of absence and all that, but I would expect the writers to have included some evidence within the game to support this aspect of magehood. That they didn't, I'm left to believe that drawing the conclusion that the Chantry's claims are drastically overstated is a reasonably lore-friendly one.

I've always taken that line by the game with a grain of salt.

We see extremists try to wipe out all mages, and when they spout the line about dangerous mages, all I see and hear is them abusing mages and pushing them to desperation. When I hear mages or mage-supporters go "we want total freedom!" I face-palm and point out the legitimate dangers of magic and demons.

The only evidence I see of mages inevitably getting overrun by abominations in the end, is when the mage is forced into a situation where they are desperate, or they are in the Fade completely conscious and aware, like in the Harrowing. Every templar goes to the Fade every nigh as well when they dream. Every king, every chantry priest and priestess do as well. Every apprentice in the Circle goes to the Fade every night as well. It's only when the mage is in the Fade conscious and awake that they are in the most immediate danger. And if the demon makes it through the veil, that demon is a threat to everyone and everything. Anything is in danger of being possessed. Be they mage, templar, corpse, tree, or whatever else.

EDIT: so yeah, I agree with you. I just felt the need to point out the legitimate dangers of magic that does give a good reason for regulating magic itself, and add on to your point that templars can actually be just as much a danger as mages when it comes to being possessed by demons.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 05 mars 2013 - 02:57 .

[Reznore57]

Well Wynne , even if she's a good mage ...is also a good abomination.
Even if you're the best person in the world , you will have to face lows and sometimes act like a fool.
There's always a moment when you're vulnerable ...problem with mages is they have some demons waiting for that to happen to knock at the door.

And possession is very complicated , it's not always "Oh yes demon , my body is ready" kind of thing.
Some demons are con artist.
We saw in DA2 somebody like Aveline falling to a demon , and later she claims that she can't understand how mages are able to resist.

I don't think that it means that abomations are going to pour on Thedas without the circle ...but it's a very random danger in the everyday life of mages.
The circle only put this danger in a specific place where it's easier to fight , but that doesn't solve the possession problem at all.
Tranquility does sort of , demons are less enthusiastic about taking posession of tranquil , normal mortals etc...
I think it makes things harder for demons , and they are able to spot mages way easily.

But well let's be honest the rite of tranquility really sucks , so let's hope mages will be able to study posession with more freedom and find way to solve this.

[dragonflight288]

Reznore57 wrote...

Well Wynne , even if she's a good mage ...is also a good abomination.
Even if you're the best person in the world , you will have to face lows and sometimes act like a fool.
There's always a moment when you're vulnerable ...problem with mages is they have some demons waiting for that to happen to knock at the door.

And possession is very complicated , it's not always "Oh yes demon , my body is ready" kind of thing.
Some demons are con artist.
We saw in DA2 somebody like Aveline falling to a demon , and later she claims that she can't understand how mages are able to resist.

I don't think that it means that abomations are going to pour on Thedas without the circle ...but it's a very random danger in the everyday life of mages.
The circle only put this danger in a specific place where it's easier to fight , but that doesn't solve the possession problem at all.
Tranquility does sort of , demons are less enthusiastic about taking posession of tranquil , normal mortals etc...
I think it makes things harder for demons , and they are able to spot mages way easily.

But well let's be honest the rite of tranquility really sucks , so let's hope mages will be able to study posession with more freedom and find way to solve this.

To the bolded part, I have two codex entries, one written by the Chantry and one written by a First Enchanter, and I think we can compare these codex entries of apostates side-by-side.

An Honest Answer Regarding Apostates

A mage who does not receive the teachings of the Circle and who does not have the words of Andraste in her heart is an apostate, and a danger to us all. Without the guidance of the holy Chantry, a mage may foolishly dabble in the darker arts—blood magic, or demon summoning, thus becoming maleficarum. And a mage's mind will ever be a doorway to spirits of the Fade;
without proper instruction, this doorway remains open and unsecured. If
a demon should come through this doorway and possess a mage, an abomination
is created. Abominations know only madness. They cannot be reasoned
with and will slaughter man, woman and child without thought. Whole
cities have fallen to these creatures. Thousands have died at their
hands.
The Chantry and her templars have a duty to ensure that this does not happen.
If I knew a better way to deal with magic, I would seize upon it
immediately. You say we should let the mages guard themselves. I tell
you that this is no solution. Look at the Tevinter Imperium. Their magisters
do not know restraint. Without Chantry oversight the magisters abuse
their power. Those without magic are trampled underfoot and forced to
serve. Slaves are slaughtered by the hundreds to feed the magisters'
hunger for power. Even some mages are not spared, for in mages as in all
humans, there exists a spectrum—on one end, the very powerful, on the
other, those that can barely light a candle. The Empire cares only for
the strongest, and those who do not compare favorably are thrown to the
wolves.
Imagine your children growing up in such a world. If a mage asked
it of you, you would have to give him your daughter, not knowing what
his plans for her might be. You could not resist him, and neither could
she. Without our templars and without the Circle, the common man would
have no defense against magic. We must deny the mages certain freedoms
for the common good. I wish there was another way. I tell the
apprentices this is a test of their faith, that it is the will of the Maker. Many understand that we do what we do for their own good.
—Excerpt of a letter from Grand Cleric Francesca of Starkhaven to Lord Guthrie Abholz.

I would note that the Grand Cleric focuses specifically on the danger of abominations, and immediately seizes upon the idea of 'mages guarding their own' as if the templars wouldn't be doing anything.

Now for the next entry, this time written by a First Enchanter.

Apostates.

It is not uncommon for the neophyte to mistake apostates and maleficarum as one and the same. Indeed, the Chantry
has gone to great lengths over the centuries to establish that this is
so. The truth, however, is that while an apostate is often a maleficar,
he need not be so. A maleficar is a mage who employs forbidden knowledge such as blood magic and the summoning of demons, whereas an apostate is merely any mage who does not fall under the auspices of the Circle of Magi (and therefore the Chantry). They are hunted by the templars,
and quite often they will turn to forbidden knowledge in order to
survive, but it would be a lie to say that all apostates begin that way.
Historically, apostates become such in one of two ways: They are
either mages who have escaped from the Circle or mages who were never
part of it to begin with. This latter category includes what we tend to
refer to as "hedge mages"--those with magical ability out in the
hinterlands who follow a different magical tradition than our own. Some
of these hedge mages are not even aware of their nature. Undeveloped,
their abilities can express themselves in a variety of ways, which the
hedge mage might attribute to faith, or will, or to another being
entirely (depending on his nature). Some of these traditions are passed
down from generation to generation, as with the so-called "witches" of
the Chasind wilders or the "shamans" of the Avvar barbarians.
No matter how a mage has become apostate, the Chantry treats them
alike: Templars begin a systematic hunt to bring the apostate to
justice. In almost all cases, "justice" is execution. If there is some
overriding reason the mage should live, the Rite of Tranquility is employed instead. Whether we of the Circle of Magi believe this system fair is irrelevant: It is what it is.
--From Patterns Within Form, by Halden, First Enchanter of Starkhaven, 8:80 Blessed.

In this case, he spends a great deal of time focusing on how the Chantry blurs the lines and how the templars treat all apostates alike...and it usually ends with an execution or the Right of Tranquility. He also focuses on things the Grand Cleric completely glossed over and never touched. Apostates who grew up in a different magical tradition, without templars and the Chantry, and from gameplay, we know those societies still exist without abomination problems.

Now I would like to look at abomination codex entries.

Abomination



"We arrived in the dead of night. We had been tracking the maleficar for days, and finally had him cornered... or so we thought.
As we approached, a home on the edge of the town exploded,
sending splinters of wood and fist-sized chunks of rocks into our ranks.
We had but moments to regroup before fire rained from the sky, the
sounds of destruction wrapped in a hideous laughter from the center of
the village.
There, perched atop the spire of the village chantry, stood the mage. But he was human no longer.
We shouted prayers to the Maker
and deflected what magic we could, but as we fought, the creature
fought harder. I saw my comrades fall, burned by the flaming sky or
crushed by debris. The monstrous creature, looking as if a demon
were wearing a man like a twisted suit of skin, spotted me and grinned.
We had forced it to this, I realized; the mage had made this pact,
given himself over to the demon to survive our assault."
--Transcribed from a tale told by a former templar in Cumberland, 8:84 Blessed.

And put this side-by side with this one. 

Demonic Possession

Why do demons seek to possess the living?
History claims they are malevolent spirits, the first children of the Maker, angry at their creator for turning from them and jealous of those creations he considered superior. They stare across the Veil
at the living and do not understand what they see, yet they know they
crave it. They desire life, they pull the living across the Veil when
they sleep and prey on their psyche with nightmares. Whenever they can,
they cross the Veil into our world to possess it outright.
We know that any demon will seek to possess a mage, and upon doing so will create an abomination.
Most of the world does not know, however, that the strength of an
abomination depends entirely on the power of the demon that possesses
the mage. This is true, in fact, of all possessed creatures. One demon
is not the same as any other.
Demons can, for instance, be classified. Enchanter Brahm's
categorization of demons into that portion of the psyche they primarily
prey upon has held since the Tower Age.
According to Brahm, the weakest and most common of demons are those of rage.
They are the least intelligent and most prone to violent outbursts
against the living. They expend their energies quickly, the most
powerful of them exhibiting great strength and occasionally the ability
to generate fire.
Next are the demons of hunger.
In a living host they become cannibals and vampires, and within the
dead they feed upon the living. Theirs are the powers of draining, both
of life force and of mana.
Next are the demons of sloth,
the first on Brahm's scale that are capable of true intelligence. In
its true form, this demon is known as a shade, a thing which is nearly
indistinct and invisible, for such is sloth's nature. It hides and
stalks, unaware, and when confronted, it sows fatigue and apathy.
Demons of desire
are amongst the most powerful, and are the ones most likely to seek out
the living and actively trick them into a deal. These demons will
exploit anything that can be coveted—wealth, power, lust—and they will
always end up getting far more than they give. A desire demon's province
is that of illusions and mind control.
Strongest of all demons are those of pride.
These are the most feared creatures to loose upon the world: Masters of
magic and in possession of vast intellect, they are the true schemers.
It is they who seek most strongly to possess mages, and will bring other
demons across the Veil in numbers to achieve their own ends—although
what that might be has never been discovered. A greater pride demon,
brought across the veil, would threaten the entire world.
--From The Maker's First Children, by Bader, Senior Enchanter of Ostwick, 8:12 Blessed.

Th first entry talks about how a former templar was chasing an apostate who turned to a demon in desperation in an attempt to survive the templars assault. The second one, written by a senior enchanter, starts off the question asking why demons seek to possess mages....and turned into a summary of the various kinds of demons without once answering his own question.

Among the codex entires regarding apostates, I would have to say that the Grand Cleric's is full of propaganda and long-held beliefs by the Chantry, and a refusal to acknowledge there may be a better way that doesn't have mages guarding themselves, and an almost complete refusal to look for another option, and how dangerous free mages are, whereas the First Enchanter's has more historical and geographical fact, and is less biased. But when it came to the abominations themselves, the former-templar's codex entry, while ultimately a story on how he chased a maleficar and abomination, does a much better job describing why a mage may turn to the demon than the senior enchanter's who starts off the entire codex entry with that question...and does nothing to answer it.

I don't think free mages are nearly as much a danger as the Chantry teaches, or mages are such demon magnets that you'll find an abomination in every Dalish or chasind tribe. The danger is very real of course, but I don't think that mages are in as much danger as is taught.

Now for the italized part. It's true that some demons are con artists. The ones with the cunning for that would be desire and pride, and it's a desire demon that tempts Aveline. And we know in the book Asunder that in very rare and exceptional cases, a mage may end up possessed and is completely unaware of it, and unaware they even made a deal with a demon. Let's face it, it's simply fact. But most demons simply don't have the cunning to be con artists. I have yet to see a clever rage demon. And sloth demons, from the ones I've seen, are always looking for an easy way to get things done. The one in the Mage Origin almost couldn't be bothered to chase after the Warden because it would take energy, while the one in Broken Circle lulled people into a deep sleep, where he could feed on them without resistance, and Torpor in Fenriel's quest tries to get Hawke to get rid of the most powerful demons for him, and he makes no attempt to trick Hawke (as he wanted Fenriel) even though Hawke may trick Torpor.

Sloth demons may have the cunning, but based on the three examples I've cited, the sloth demon isn't much a con artist so much an opportunist.

[Lotion Soronarr]

I would not support Orsino's hiding of information if Gregoir or even
Cullen had been the Knight-Commander, because they are reasonable,
stern, but ultimately fair -- even if Cullen's words are not
appropriate, I can at least sense his general intent.

But with
Meredith, it is okay for him to hide such information. She is not
reasonable, she is not stern, and she is not fair. She is unreasonable,
illogical, oppressive, and cruel. And the idol did not help matters.

It's not OK. People don't get to cherry-pick which laws they follow and when.
Again, do you get to get away with stuff just because you don't like the cop on your beat?

Hell, mabye Meredith didn't like Elthina, so it's OK for her to hide information from her?
If you start using mistrust and "what-if-X-does-Y" scenarios concocted in someones head as excuses, there's no stoping it. Everything goes.

I can surely justify a dozen different theories that would justfiy everything every character did. Maybe Meredith thought that Orsino was plotting to mind-control Elthina? Would then Meredith be fully justified in wantign to stop him?

But there's the problem - Orsino has as much evidence of Merediths future actions and Meredith does of his - none!

And no, Meredith wasn't a unreasonable monster from day 1. She was strict, but a good templar. She only starts cracking after the idol.

Ser Karras, if alive in Act 3, says that Meredith sent word to the
Divine for an RoA after Meredith was repeatedly refused by Elthina.

Doesn't prove a damn thing...other that she thinks the Circle is beyond saving.

And of course, when she gets the authority to grant permission to her search

She already had authority.

Not when the reason you're performing the RoA is because you really just
want to kill people born as Mages, especially in an area with an
extremely thin Veil.

Except you can't prove that reason. You simply can't. You construct a image in our head about a persons motivations and then use it as a fact. It is not.

I seek a discussion. I don't care what choices people make in their
games, but I do enjoy a serious discussion on the matter that doesn't
ignore what other people present.

You, like Hazegurl, are not
worth discussing the matter with because you cherrypick what you respond
to or deem to be lore. And the both of you insult people on the other
side. 

Dave of Canada, MisterJB, Lazy Jer, DPSSOC,
EmperorSahlertz, and so on are all pro-Templar or moderate people that I
can enjoy a discussion with on the matter with opposing
viewpoints/arguments because they take the topic seriously and reply to
what people say.

Oh pelase. Spare me the drama and get off of your high horse.
We all like a discussion...but everyone wants to prove they are right. If you claim otherwise, you're a liar.

and b.t.w. - calling everyone "not worth discussing" and basicly doing character assasination and then calign other people that insult people. You are doing it.
Oh, wait...when you are doing it it's not an insult, it's a "factual observation"?

and yeah - I'll dismiss things that aren't proff as proof. Because some things you say aren't proof (altough they could be if they were the only possible explanation/interpretation, so I see how you could think that). Like for example, what Meredith wants.
You don't KNOW what she wants, you THINK you know. You know what she does and you extrapolate from there, building motives that fit with your agenda (mage-hate). But you ignore she might have other motives.



first 2 minutes are tellign a LOT

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
I don't think free mages are nearly as much a danger as the Chantry teaches, or mages are such demon magnets that you'll find an abomination in every Dalish or chasind tribe. The danger is very real of course, but I don't think that mages are in as much danger as is taught.

A greater pride demon,  brought across the veil, would threaten the entire world.
--From The Maker's First Children, by Bader, Senior Enchanter of Ostwick, 8:12 Blessed.


coming fro mthe mouth of a First Enchanter.

There is a reason why the danger from mages seems so lesser.
And that's because the player can be a mage.
So just like the devs don't acknowledge oyu beign a blood mage, or like how they didnt' put in lyrium consumption for a templar spec, they didn't put in demonic possesion for mages.
Just think how FUN it would be to play as mage if every little while you'd have to do  a quick-time event or mash your controller to avoid possesion attempts.

Also it's a game, so abominations will be perfectly beatable by 4 people (or even by one), even when they can lore-wise take on entire armies.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
I don't think free mages are nearly as much a danger as the Chantry teaches, or mages are such demon magnets that you'll find an abomination in every Dalish or chasind tribe. The danger is very real of course, but I don't think that mages are in as much danger as is taught.

A greater pride demon,  brought across the veil, would threaten the entire world.
--From The Maker's First Children, by Bader, Senior Enchanter of Ostwick, 8:12 Blessed.


coming fro mthe mouth of a First Enchanter.

There is a reason why the danger from mages seems so lesser.
And that's because the player can be a mage.
So just like the devs don't acknowledge oyu beign a blood mage, or like how they didnt' put in lyrium consumption for a templar spec, they didn't put in demonic possesion for mages.
Just think how FUN it would be to play as mage if every little while you'd have to do  a quick-time event or mash your controller to avoid possesion attempts.

Also it's a game, so abominations will be perfectly beatable by 4 people (or even by one), even when they can lore-wise take on entire armies.

wtf is a greater pride demon? because so far the other pride demons while dangerous are not really that world shattering. Lore is twisted in this case , because so far we have not seen an abomination take out en entrie army nor have we heard of the abominations of old taking out entire armies.

[dragonflight288]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
I don't think free mages are nearly as much a danger as the Chantry teaches, or mages are such demon magnets that you'll find an abomination in every Dalish or chasind tribe. The danger is very real of course, but I don't think that mages are in as much danger as is taught.

A greater pride demon,  brought across the veil, would threaten the entire world.
--From The Maker's First Children, by Bader, Senior Enchanter of Ostwick, 8:12 Blessed.


coming fro mthe mouth of a First Enchanter.

There is a reason why the danger from mages seems so lesser.
And that's because the player can be a mage.
So just like the devs don't acknowledge oyu beign a blood mage, or like how they didnt' put in lyrium consumption for a templar spec, they didn't put in demonic possesion for mages.
Just think how FUN it would be to play as mage if every little while you'd have to do  a quick-time event or mash your controller to avoid possesion attempts.

Also it's a game, so abominations will be perfectly beatable by 4 people (or even by one), even when they can lore-wise take on entire armies.

When's the last time you saw, in the game, a greater pride demon? Every Pride demon I've ever fought in the game aren't world-shattering monsters, capable of destryong entire armies. Maybe an entire platoon of regular grunts who aren't trained for magic and abominations, but a battalion of templars or mages? A well-trained squad like the Warden's team or a bunch of highly skilled individuals like Hawke's friends? No problem whatsoever.

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
I would say rather that the game is written to appeal to the emotions in one particular way when one's instincts especially if one looked at it rationally (as Ethereal and others lay out) pretty clearly show this is not a grey choice at all.

Meredith wants to slaughter an entire group of people (the Circle of Mages) for a crime they didn't commit.  She doesn't even bother to hide her eagerness to do so, nor (if you do any digging at all) does she try to hide that she has been seeking to kill all mages for quite a while before this and only the Grand Cleric was stopping her.

Kind of hard to see how picking her side is anything other than the evil choice no matter what any mage or any group of mages may have done prior.

Bollocks.

It like you didn't even play the game.
The entire conversation before Anders blows up the Chantry - where she explicitly expresses regret for having to resort to a total tower search and pleads - BEGS - for another solution clearly shows that she does care and she's at the verge of an emotional breakdown.

Meredith doesn't beg for Jack and fecal matter.  She is pushing to slaughter all mages and you find out from Kerras that she has been going over the Grand Cleric to the Divine for a Right of Annulment.  She doesn't accept Hawke's (correct and backed by Knight Captain Cullen) word that the conspiricacy was due to Thrask.  She instead says that Hawke is subject to bloodmagic (even after promising when she gives the message that she is willing to accept she is wrong...she never does).

In the final scene (if you go pro-Templar), Meredith out and out says that she has been looking forward to this.

The game and lore are very clear.  Meredith was never concerned about protecting anyone in Act 3.  She wanted to slaughter the circle from "go", and did so the moment she had any shred of legal authority to do so.  In fact I strongly suspect that Anders merely sped up the inevitable:  Given Meredith's paranoia about bloodmagic, if Anders didn't do it, Meredith would have arranged for an accident for the Grand Cleric herself.  In fact during that scene aren't the Templars in the Grand Cathedral Meredith's personal death squad?  I know I have never seen Templars in the Grand Cathedral prior to this......

-Polaris

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
A greater pride demon,  brought across the veil, would threaten the entire world.
--From The Maker's First Children, by Bader, Senior Enchanter of Ostwick, 8:12 Blessed.


coming fro mthe mouth of a First Enchanter.

There is a reason why the danger from mages seems so lesser.
And that's because the player can be a mage.
So just like the devs don't acknowledge oyu beign a blood mage, or like how they didnt' put in lyrium consumption for a templar spec, they didn't put in demonic possesion for mages.
Just think how FUN it would be to play as mage if every little while you'd have to do  a quick-time event or mash your controller to avoid possesion attempts.

Also it's a game, so abominations will be perfectly beatable by 4 people (or even by one), even when they can lore-wise take on entire armies.

wtf is a greater pride demon? because so far the other pride demons while dangerous are not really that world shattering. Lore is twisted in this case , because so far we have not seen an abomination take out en entrie army nor have we heard of the abominations of old taking out entire armies.

It's not the lore that is twisted.
It's the game that twists the lore to fit gameplay.

I can't belive that are actually idiots in this world who trot gameplay as ultimate proof.

It doesn't matter how many sword hits a demon or anyone else can take in game.
Or do you serisously want to argue that Ser Cauthrien is hte most devastting creature in all of TheDas?
Or any other example of gamepaly taking the lore for behind and having it's way with it?

OF COURSE an abomination in game wont be that strong. If it was, the player couldn't defeat it. DUH!
Well, I guess you could, but that would require a compeltely different approach and encoutner design...and given that EA loves the raining men approach, that's not likely to ahppen.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 05 mars 2013 - 09:06 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Bollocks.

It like you didn't even play the game.
The entire conversation before Anders blows up the Chantry - where she explicitly expresses regret for having to resort to a total tower search and pleads - BEGS - for another solution clearly shows that she does care and she's at the verge of an emotional breakdown.

Meredith doesn't beg for Jack and fecal matter.  She is pushing to slaughter all mages and you find out from Kerras that she has been going over the Grand Cleric to the Divine for a Right of Annulment.  She doesn't accept Hawke's (correct and backed by Knight Captain Cullen) word that the conspiricacy was due to Thrask.  She instead says that Hawke is subject to bloodmagic (even after promising when she gives the message that she is willing to accept she is wrong...she never does).

In the final scene (if you go pro-Templar), Meredith out and out says that she has been looking forward to this.

The game and lore are very clear.  Meredith was never concerned about protecting anyone in Act 3.  She wanted to slaughter the circle from "go", and did so the moment she had any shred of legal authority to do so.  In fact I strongly suspect that Anders merely sped up the inevitable:  Given Meredith's paranoia about bloodmagic, if Anders didn't do it, Meredith would have arranged for an accident for the Grand Cleric herself.  In fact during that scene aren't the Templars in the Grand Cathedral Meredith's personal death squad?  I know I have never seen Templars in the Grand Cathedral prior to this......
-Polaris

You keep repeating yourself.
And I wil lkeep repeating myself.

The cutscene is clear. As are Merediths words and tone.

The game and lore and clear about one thing - that you are wrong.

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You keep repeating yourself.
And I wil lkeep repeating myself.

The cutscene is clear. As are Merediths words and tone.

The game and lore and clear about one thing - that you are wrong.

You have one cutscene where Meredith is clearly practicing her speech for the Grand Cleric.  I have all of Act 3 including further scenes were Meredith admits that she is looking forward to slaugthtering all mages.  Her demenor and tone are clear then as well:  She is giddy at the thought of a good day of slaughter.

Ser Karras also confirms that Meredith had been trying to go over the Grand Cleric's head all of Act 3, and Meredith doesn't even bother with the actual guilty party (Anders).  She immediately calls for a slaughter of all circle mages the moment she has the legal authority to do so....when even Knight Captain Cullen wonders if that is really necessary.

You are wrong.  Again.

-Polaris

[dragonflight288]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Bollocks.

It like you didn't even play the game.
The entire conversation before Anders blows up the Chantry - where she explicitly expresses regret for having to resort to a total tower search and pleads - BEGS - for another solution clearly shows that she does care and she's at the verge of an emotional breakdown.

Meredith doesn't beg for Jack and fecal matter.  She is pushing to slaughter all mages and you find out from Kerras that she has been going over the Grand Cleric to the Divine for a Right of Annulment.  She doesn't accept Hawke's (correct and backed by Knight Captain Cullen) word that the conspiricacy was due to Thrask.  She instead says that Hawke is subject to bloodmagic (even after promising when she gives the message that she is willing to accept she is wrong...she never does).

In the final scene (if you go pro-Templar), Meredith out and out says that she has been looking forward to this.

The game and lore are very clear.  Meredith was never concerned about protecting anyone in Act 3.  She wanted to slaughter the circle from "go", and did so the moment she had any shred of legal authority to do so.  In fact I strongly suspect that Anders merely sped up the inevitable:  Given Meredith's paranoia about bloodmagic, if Anders didn't do it, Meredith would have arranged for an accident for the Grand Cleric herself.  In fact during that scene aren't the Templars in the Grand Cathedral Meredith's personal death squad?  I know I have never seen Templars in the Grand Cathedral prior to this......
-Polaris

You keep repeating yourself.
And I wil lkeep repeating myself.

The cutscene is clear. As are Merediths words and tone.

The game and lore and clear about one thing - that you are wrong.

Meredith accusing a pro-templar Hawke who is a warrior as being more dangerous than the Circle....and the champion's remarkable response.

In all seriousness, you are the one in the wrong. The lore and game makes it clear that Meredith was not interested at all in defending anyone. Se wanted to commit genocide for the sake of committing genocide.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You keep repeating yourself.
And I wil lkeep repeating myself.

The cutscene is clear. As are Merediths words and tone.

The game and lore and clear about one thing - that you are wrong.

You have one cutscene where Meredith is clearly practicing her speech for the Grand Cleric.  I have all of Act 3 including further scenes were Meredith admits that she is looking forward to slaugthtering all mages.  Her demenor and tone are clear then as well:  She is giddy at the thought of a good day of slaughter.

More of your fanfic theories served as facts?

Meredith loses if after the Chatnry is blown up - but no, she did care for the mages too.
It is bloody obvious, but you just don't want to see it.

Ser Karras also confirms that Meredith had been trying to go over the Grand Cleric's head all of Act 3, and Meredith doesn't even bother with the actual guilty party (Anders).  She immediately calls for a slaughter of all circle mages the moment she has the legal authority to do so....when even Knight Captain Cullen wonders if that is really necessary.

You are wrong.  Again.

-Polaris

You are wrong. Again.

Because Meredith asking for anullment DOESN'T prove she hates all mages and takes joy in their deaths.
After all, Gregoir requested an Anullment too.
So it doesn't prove anything to any sane person.

But go ahead, keep trotting it up as clear evidence. All you are doing is trying to find things that fit with your theory, and in doing so, you can only see one angle and deny the existence of everything else.

At least I'm not dellusional enough to claim that there is only one possible angle.

dragonflight288

In all seriousness, you are the one in the wrong. The lore and game
makes it clear that Meredith was not interested at all in defending
anyone. Se wanted to commit genocide for the sake of committing
genocide.

Keep repeating that. If you wish hard enough, maybe one day it will become the truth.
She wanted to commit genocide for the sake of genocide? HAH! Shows how little you know.
Meredith was obsessed with duty and security. She requested the annulment because she though it's her duty and the only way to protect Kirkwall.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 05 mars 2013 - 11:00 .

[Silfren]

Reznore57 wrote...

Well Wynne , even if she's a good mage ...is also a good abomination.
Even if you're the best person in the world , you will have to face lows and sometimes act like a fool.
There's always a moment when you're vulnerable ...problem with mages is they have some demons waiting for that to happen to knock at the door.

And possession is very complicated , it's not always "Oh yes demon , my body is ready" kind of thing.
Some demons are con artist.
We saw in DA2 somebody like Aveline falling to a demon , and later she claims that she can't understand how mages are able to resist.

I don't think that it means that abomations are going to pour on Thedas without the circle ...but it's a very random danger in the everyday life of mages.
The circle only put this danger in a specific place where it's easier to fight , but that doesn't solve the possession problem at all.
Tranquility does sort of , demons are less enthusiastic about taking posession of tranquil , normal mortals etc...
I think it makes things harder for demons , and they are able to spot mages way easily.

But well let's be honest the rite of tranquility really sucks , so let's hope mages will be able to study posession with more freedom and find way to solve this.

Whether Wynne is an abomination or not is up for debate. Under the Chantry's definition, she is, but it is also well documented that even though the strictly accurate denotation of a maleficar is a mage who practices forbidden magic, the Chantry as a whole and many individuals on their own, tend to define a maleficar as being synonymous with apostate.  The two terms are NOT synonymous at all, but there's a tendency to label all mages outside the Circle as maleficar by default with no consideration given to whether a given apostate practices illegal magic or not. 

Likewise with abominations.  Literally speaking, simply being possessed equates to being an abomination.  But I don't think it should be overlooked that when the Chantry refers to abominations, they refer specifically to demon-possessed mages who become twisted into ugly meatsuits.  They don't necessarily specify this, but it's definitely the assumption.  So it's quite reasonable to say that the two cases of possession are fundamentally different enough that they can't both be called abominations. 

Wynne says as much herself I believe, when she unburdens her worries to the Warden.  She has believed up to that point that she is an abomination under the Chantry's strict definition, but when faced with the reality that abominations typically lose all sense of self and become physically twisted, while she has retained her sanity and control, she decides that whatever she is, she is NOT an abomination.

[Silfren]

Reznore57 wrote...

I don't think that it means that abomations are going to pour on Thedas without the circle ...but it's a very random danger in the everyday life of mages.
The circle only put this danger in a specific place where it's easier to fight , but that doesn't solve the possession problem at all.
Tranquility does sort of , demons are less enthusiastic about taking posession of tranquil , normal mortals etc...
I think it makes things harder for demons , and they are able to spot mages way easily.

But well let's be honest the rite of tranquility really sucks , so let's hope mages will be able to study posession with more freedom and find way to solve this.

A point that gets raised often in regards to Kirkwall is "WHY O WHY did anyone think it was a good idea to put a Circle on a Hellmouth," referring of course to the exceptionally thin Veil in that location.  But it's an established fact of game lore that the Veil becomes very thin in any place where magic is practiced often and routinely.  This is why I remain convinced that Tevinter MUST have some means either of keeping the Veil from thinning, or else of blocking demons from crossing it no matter how thin it is.

Magical research would almost certainly uncover knowledge that would make it quite possible to re-create the Circle in a more humane form.  Tevinter's very existence stands as proof of this.

[Silfren]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

But there's the problem - Orsino has as much evidence of Merediths future actions and Meredith does of his - none!

And no, Meredith wasn't a unreasonable monster from day 1. She was strict, but a good templar. She only starts cracking after the idol.

She might not have been a total monster from the start, but she was FAR from reasonable.  Knight-Commander Gregoir was reasonable.  Meredith was never even in the same orbit.  Given the severe emotional trauma she suffered before becoming a Templar, I'd say she was VERY damaged.  Certainly NOT the sort of person you'd want watching mages, for the same reason that Gregoir didn't think it was safe for Cullen to be around the mages of the Tower where he suffered emotional trauma. 

If an aspiring police officer expresses an overzealous desire to put the uber!smackdown on criminals everywhere, generally you don't hire her, because going Rambo/Batman on some petty thief's ass is not generally considered acceptable.

[Silfren]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

One thing that I don't think gets enough attention in this eternal debate is that of mages who are good, moral people, especially those who are genuine Andrastians and believe that magic falls under the "with great power come great responsibilities" category, who loathe blood magic in all its forms. More mages like Wynne, essentially.

Supposedly, magic is so volatile and demons are so drawn to it, that mages are at constant risk of possession no matter how strong-willed or morally righteous they are. Even when they sleep. Supposedly even mages with the best intentions are perpetually at risk of being over-whelmed and warped into a twisted meatsuit. It's supposed to be a risk that comes as part and parcel of being a mage, as much a part of the overall problem as the potential of mages to become morally corrupt.

This is one of the main reasons I can't support the Templars or the Circle in its present form. The game makes this one of the Chantry's claims, but offers nothing to actually support it. Evidence of absence and all that, but I would expect the writers to have included some evidence within the game to support this aspect of magehood. That they didn't, I'm left to believe that drawing the conclusion that the Chantry's claims are drastically overstated is a reasonably lore-friendly one.

I've always taken that line by the game with a grain of salt.

We see extremists try to wipe out all mages, and when they spout the line about dangerous mages, all I see and hear is them abusing mages and pushing them to desperation. When I hear mages or mage-supporters go "we want total freedom!" I face-palm and point out the legitimate dangers of magic and demons.

The only evidence I see of mages inevitably getting overrun by abominations in the end, is when the mage is forced into a situation where they are desperate, or they are in the Fade completely conscious and aware, like in the Harrowing. Every templar goes to the Fade every nigh as well when they dream. Every king, every chantry priest and priestess do as well. Every apprentice in the Circle goes to the Fade every night as well. It's only when the mage is in the Fade conscious and awake that they are in the most immediate danger. And if the demon makes it through the veil, that demon is a threat to everyone and everything. Anything is in danger of being possessed. Be they mage, templar, corpse, tree, or whatever else.

EDIT: so yeah, I agree with you. I just felt the need to point out the legitimate dangers of magic that does give a good reason for regulating magic itself, and add on to your point that templars can actually be just as much a danger as mages when it comes to being possessed by demons.

I'm aware of all those STATED dangers.  My entire point was that it's reasonable to expect the Devs to SHOW us some of this danger, rather than simply feeding us the information from largely biased sources without every giving us evidence to back it up.  In Origins we had a chance to play as a mage character who got free of the Circle, to roam about the land without any Templars in tow (I don't really think Alistair counts, as he wasn't set to guard your Mage Warden, didn't finish his training, and appeared to be free of much of Chantry indoctrination regarding templars' duties toward mages).  That was a perfect opportunity to demonstrate the mage facing the dangers of being a living, breathing demon-magnet just for existing.  We don't get it, ever. 

Nor do we get it in DA2 while playing a Mage Hawke.  We don't even get verbal references to it from Hawke or Bethany, about how part of living life as a mage is dealing with this constant threat.  It's supposed to be ever-present, mind you.  Something that is that constant and always-on like this is something I'd expect to hear SOMETHING about from the mages who deal with it every moment of their lives.  The utter lack of any such thing does lead me to believe it's Chantry propaganda. 

[BlueMagitek]

^ Connor?

Also, using the PC as an example isn't really fair; unique storyline classes are a rarer thing these days, so as awesome as it would have been for your Harrowing Demon to follow you around in your dream, that would be too origin specific (effectively one only)

[Silfren]

BlueMagitek wrote...

^ Connor?

Also, using the PC as an example isn't really fair; unique storyline classes are a rarer thing these days, so as awesome as it would have been for your Harrowing Demon to follow you around in your dream, that would be too origin specific (effectively one only)

Connor isn't even remotely an example of what I'm talking about.  But it doesn't have to be just the PC either, though I don't see any reason at all we couldn't have gotten at least one scene or minor side quest involving this issue.  But there's zero mention of it even in ambient dialogue.  So what if it's Origin specific?  ALL The origins had unique side content.  But it doesn't have to be a case of being constantly followed around by one demon.  There are other ways this could have been demonstrated. 

I don't get what's so hard about this.  If mages actually do face this threat as a constant of their lives, why do none of them ever mention it?  In Origins we had Wynne and Morrigan in addition to the PC.  In DA2 we had Bethany, and potentially Hawke herself.  And of course all the other secondary major and minor mage characters from all games. 

There is as far as I know literally not one reference made from any mage about this supposedly constant danger.  Sorry, but I'd expect such an integral part of a mage's life to be mentioned once in a while.  Especially by mages living outside the Circle, whether because they are life-long apostates like Morrigan, or mages who lived within the Circle only to suddenly find themselves outside its walls.  Given that supposedly only Chantry training is adequate defense against this, 'n all.

[Hazegurl]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Lazy Jer, thanks for the input. I like your reasons for siding with the mages. You almost forget that Bethany could be the biggest reason for siding with the Mages. Although I sided with the Templars. It did add an element of excitement wondering if she would be okay. I liked the idea of sparring her life. My Hawke loved his family. I may have had some problems with DA2 but I think some elements of the story were well thought out.

Okay...I'm trying to figure this out here. I mean no disrespect, but I am curious as to motivations.

We all know the Right of Annulment is the systematic murder of every single man, woman and child in a Circle.
(snip)

By supporting Meredith, you just supported killing your own sister, by virtue of her being a mage and in the Circle. Whether you accept their surrender later on (and Gaider said they were most likely made tranquil) you still supported killing your own sister at the moment you supported Meredith.


I understand that the whole situation is subjective to the
individual gamer, and I am genuinely curious. What was your motivation
for supporting Meredith while your sister was a Circle Mage?

You're wrong. Meredeith and Hawke are two separate indivduals. They can support the same thing but for totally different reasons. My Hawke was mostly neutral up until the destruction of the Chantry by Anders. Before then, I tried to make choices that would be better for everyone within my limits. My Hawke either killed or turned in blood mages as he felt they were too dangerous, regardless of their reasons, to be allowed to roam free. Good mages were set free or sent back to the circle.  Bethany was kidnapped by her own kind along with weak Templars so there was no reason for him to hold them to some sort of higher standard than Meredeith. I would say that this is when my Hawke began leaning more on the side of Meredeith (The kidnapping of Bethany). He had already lost his mother, father, and brother. Bethany was all he had. She didn't have a problem with the circle. I like to think that my Hawke was working toward Viscount to free her.

Anyway, When Anders blew up the chantry he destoryed any type of good Hawke could work toward, I find him blowing up the Chantry even more insulting if Hawke is a mage.

Hawke had to choose between what was best for Kirkwall or what was best for mages. It was no longer just about Bethany, but the lives of thousands of people were now at risk.  It wasn't a choice he made lightly, but the fact remains is that he knows what a good number of those mages would do when pressed. Turn to blood magic and sacrifice anyone in their path, as they have proven they would do time and time again. He could not risk people's lives like that even if it meant losing his sister. What was exciting for me was my motivations for getting to the gallows as fast as I could to end it once and for all, making sure Bethany was going to live through it all.  If she didn't, then it would be a loss Hawke was willing to accept to see Kirkwall stable again. I think that is what makes a leader a leader.  Hawke tells everyone on his team to reduce casualites. That was the best he could do at that moment. IMO, the anwser to Meredeith calling the RoA was not to run the streets fighting Templars who would be needed to put down blood mages and demons.

Fenris says it best when he said that weak mages are something to fear. As they would always turn to the most depraved acts to gain power. Even Anders proves this point by allowing a demon in his body thus becoming an increasing danger to everyone in his path. Yeah yeah, spirit of justice. That could have been what he told him to trick him into giving him his body.

When Orsino came out to talk after the RoA, my Hawke was willing to try to talk it out, but Meredeith wouldn't and the Templars would only obey her at that moment.  He was left with no choice but to continue regardless of what Bethany said. It doesn't mean he supported killing her. Once again, his team is all about reducing casualities when possible.  When Meredeith was eying his sister he told her to back off. He would have killed her right then and there.

I believe Hawke is made Viscount at the end after choosing to side with the Templars because he did what was best for the city overall and had proven to be its protector and leader. Something he was striving for.

From a story standpoint, I think that siding with the Templars is a far more complex decision than siding with the mages. IMO, siding with the mages is more emotional and linear. The typical hero story. While siding with the Templars offers far more than that. Even at the end when its said that Hawke becomes a symbol of Templar oppression. Anyone who had been there would not believe that...well, anyone but the dead mages. lol! While the Hawke who sides with the mages becomes a beloved figure for mages. I think it's easier to go for the love angle in a story but I love my tortured heros.

[TEWR]

Hazegurl wrote...

Yeah yeah, spirit of justice. That could have been what he told him to trick him into giving him his body.

No, Justice really was a Spirit of Justice. He was not a Demon playing the part of a Spirit when Anders first met him. You meet him in Awakening and DG and company have even referred to Justice as, before Anders merged with him, being a Spirit.

What he turned into after the merger is uncertain, if you ask me. I say he's not a Spirit or a Demon, but some sort of new entity entirely. A Spirit and Demon merged into one being, residing in Anders. Justice and Vengeance are really just two sides of the same coin, with one side being a slightly darker shade.

EDIT: Yeah, I realize on the previous page I said "Not talking to you anymore" but what can I say... I'm just a person that when he sees something he feels the need to respond to, it doesn't matter who said it.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 mars 2013 - 05:32 .

[Hazegurl]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
Keep coming up with excuses. You fight blood
mages throughout the game.[/quote]

Which was not in your original assertion. You were talking about the BSC rebellion against Meredith, not the game itself. I applaud how easily you've moved the goalposts now. Keep it up!

[quote]But I guess your next excuse is that they did not all come from the circle therefore everything in the circle was gravy.  [/quote]

Well let's look at them all, shall we?(snip your list)[/quote]

Stop being predictable. My original point remains the same. You fight blood mages throughout the game. Sure not all come from the circle but some did. Like I said before. Kirkwall had a problem, for some reason it was a haven for blood mages.  Just because not all came from the circle does not mean the circle was running smoothly.


[quote]Far from absurd. Blood mages from the circle were planting templar recruits with demons in Act 1.[/quote]

[quote]No, they were not from the Circle. 

Tarohne was an apostate. Twist facts to suit your argument if you want, you only make yourself have little to offer in these discussions. You have absolutely no proof that Tarohne was a Circle Mage. [/quote]

Okay, fine. He was an apostate. My fault on that. Still doesn't mean the circle was free of corruption. You have zero proof to prove that the circle itself was free of corruption.

[quote]Also the fact that none of the Templars even consider Tarohne to be a part of the Circle. And the fact that if she was a Circle Mage, they would've noticed her missing and been upon it.

If they were competent, anyway.[/quote]

Since you claim they are incompetent then I guess they wouldn't. I guess it also means that they would not be able to detect corruption within the circle or be able to do anything about. You know, with them being so incomptent and all. Funny how you sort of change your views on how well the Templars can do their jobs when it suits you.

[quote]Maybe if she wasn't taking over the political spectrum when that's illegal for the Templars to do -- as Irminric had to give up his claims to his noble right -- then Orsino wouldn't have done that in the first place.

Only one person with Templar training ever went on to be a noble and that's Alistair, but he was never a full Templar to begin with. He never took his vows or consumed lyrium. 

Maybe if Elthina had actually done her damn job, as well, by bringing Meredith under control then Orsino wouldn't have had to bring what Meredith was doing to light.[/quote]

Once again, neither party was doing the right thing. Trying to start a riot is not how to get things done.  I agree that the chantry leader should have been doing her job. I lay the blame with her more than anyone. Kirkwall, overall had very weak leaders. First the Viscount and then the chantry woman. Perhaps a case of them being too damn old and ready to retire. Whatever the case. Orsino was just making it worse.


[quote]"Just not to the extent Meredith wanted it".

Hah! Anyone who sides with the Templars in an RoA under the delusion they can pick and choose what Mages survive is a fool, because that's not how it works. [/quote]

Who says? You? Hawke has been known to do the impossible. And oh look. He actually does manage to stop the RoA if he sides with the Templars.  So much for your opinion on how things work. And do you have proof that the mages who surrendered were mad tranquil? Not what one person says what would happen, or what is supposed to happen but what actually did happen? At the end Hawke is made Viscount and you can head canon anyway you see fit until he falls off the map.


[quote]Worse still, Meredith's reason -- and Hawke's -- is that they're doing this because a mob will call for blood. Taking into account how no mob ever does form, you are not supposed to cater to a mob's demands. It only empowers them and makes them feel like they rule the city.[/quote]

Whose Hawke's reasons? Yours? Cause that was not entirely my Hawke's reasons. Meredeith says they will call for blood. Hawke agrees, but only that the citizens would storm the circle and kill the mages themselves. Meredeith is doing it as some sort of champion for the people while Hawke's reasons are that the people of Kirkwall will lose it and tear the mages apart anyway and most likely hurt themselves in the process. The mages would have to be even more confined then before and Kirkwall citizens would endanger there own lives to get to the mages. IMO, I think he/she was correct.


[quote]One life to save a thousand. This is what's in play here, not from Orsino's mind but from my own objective outlook. Orsino did not have to reveal things about Quentin to the Templars, for they had enough evidence in Act 1 to warrant an investigation. His information would have helped, but I doubt the Templars would act rationally in regards to the Mages of the Circle.[/quote]

I disagree with you. As head enchanter it was his responsiblity to bring this to light, not grease the palm of a serial killer to preserve his rep and the rep of mages. He failed. Simple as that. He is proof that mages should not govern themselves and each other because they will protect their own above anyone else. What does that remind me of. Oh yeah. Fenris's account of how the Tevinter Imperium began.

I won't forget that letter "O" Orsino wrote to the killer praising him for necromany and loaning him books on the subject. Probably why he didn't want that search to take place.

[quote]But if a few lives spared the lives of Mages from being killed by an entire army of malicious Templars, I cannot fault him for his actions. All lives are inherently equal in worth. [/quote]

 I love how you add the "malicious" Templars.  I can do it too. Evil demon summoning, blood magic practicing, human scarificing, wife killing, serial killer, and possible pigeon killing Mages. Since we're judging the whole lot based on the handful of bad people.... I wonder which side is worse.

[quote]Considering you justify much of the Templars actions and inactions and ascribe blame to the Mages even where it's not warranted and believe a purge of people innocent of a crime committed by a madman is the only logical choice then I see no reason to believe otherwise regarding Meredith.

That you find her course of action to be the "correct" one is reprehensible.[/quote]

Ah, so you're just being a judgemental prig? "Justice" would love you.



[quote]You mean what Orsino advocated provided she revoked the RoA? Where every Mage would be imprisoned, she could conduct her search, and if she wanted Orsino would even help her? My God, it's sheer genius! It's so damn logical! It's a shame Meredith wanted to purge the entire Circle for so long and was practically having an orgasm when she could go through with it.[/quote]

*sigh* The mages should have been confined BEFORE the RoA. The RoA is a last resort and should have been treated as such. My idea of a confinement is an alternative to the RoA. Orsino only offered the alternative after Meredeith had already went through with it. Before then he was too busy throwing a drama queen hissy fit over having his room searched.  But if you need to think he was some sort of paragon of virtue and common sense, then go ahead.


[quote]Meredith had the legal authority to grant permission to her request to search the Tower. She did not need to call for an RoA and neither did Orsino even need to offer the search to her as a means to appease her. She could've searched the tower if she wished, but chose not to.

The only reason she wanted to search the tower was so she could bring it to Elthina so that she could purge the Circle entirely. She wanted evidence to call for the deaths of all the Mages. She was not intent on keeping the Circle secure.[/quote]

Meredeith believed he was haboring blood mages. Was she wrong considering how many you fight at the end? LOL! she was paranoid, but was she 100% wrong?

[quote]We find out through Karras that she's been going over Elthina's head to the Divine pleading for an RoA -- where she will certainly be heavily editing what she informs the Divine -- which means that the search was not to root out blood mages, but to gather evidence that might change Elthina's mind.[/quote]

Then a mage (Anders) makes it easier for her by killing the chantry woman. How ironic. Look, just because that was/could have been Meredeith's plan does not mean she would have been able to do it. Sort of reminds me of Ser Alrick's "Tranquil Solution" that everyone including Meredeith dismissed.


[quote]Yeah right... if anything they might take issue with Meredith remaining in charge because she called for an RoA when none was needed, not for their "imprisonment" that the First Enchanter suggested so as to keep them alive.[/quote]

Yeah, the mages would have just been happy to be even more confined than usual when they were already throwing a fuss with the bit of freedom they had. Okay. Whatever you say.


[quote]Soft? Are you out of your goddamn mind? You must be if you think that's why they couldn't do their job.[/quote]

Reign in buddy. You're not a circle mage inside the game.


[quote]Most of the Templars of Kirkwall were abusive pricks who couldn't care less about doing their jobs. [/quote]

Says you, and what is your proof? Oh yeah seven or eight bad Templars. You're obviously very emotional about this. I don't think you have anything to offer this discussion.

[quote]You are seriously not worth discussing this with, because you deleted the rest of my post as TL;DR and then insult my position by saying "You're just not doing a good job". [/quote]

It was TL;DR.

[quote]If you hadn't done that... hell if you'd paid attention in-game you'd have seen that the Templars did have enough information to warrant an investigation in Act 1 alone.[/quote]

I did pay attention in game. My eyes weren't filled with tears over pixelated characters like yours obviously was.

[quote]I take the care to read every single goddamn post any poster, pro-Mage or pro-Templar, writes out when I have the time. MisterJB and I have had some incredibly long ass conversations about singular topics over the course of pages and pages, but we take the time to read it out because we respect each other's viewpoints even if we disagree on the topic itself. I even did the same thing for your posts.

If you cannot extend the same courtesy, then congratulations. There's nothing more to discuss after I'm done with this post. Because what you want isn't a discussion. You desire people validating your choice.[/quote]

I don't think you do. Cause all you did was make assumption after assumption about me, my character, my descisions, and my pov.  You had your judgemental glasses already on and showed me as much, even littered it throughout this entire post, so no, I didn't feel like reading everything you wrote. It wasn't worth my time.


[quote]Samson did his job as a Templar while still allowing Mages to have their little escapades. They were not hurting anyone. Fact: Mages will inevitably seek out the company of other Mages. Sometimes even Templars [/quote]

And Samson is rightfully out of job. You can't complain about people not doing their jobs then champion acts that have nothing to do with their employment.  It just seems to me that  any Templar who is nice to mages is doing their job and anyone who isn't nice mages aren't doing their job.

[quote]Firing him was out of line. [/quote]

Says you.


[quote]Best Served Cold itself was written to be an absurd quest where if you're Pro-mage not a goddamn thing makes sense.[/quote]

Says you.


[quote]Hey, you say something worth agreeing on! It's about damn time, I say.[/quote]

I'm not here to impress you.


[quote]Says the person who thinks the solution to a few bad Mages is a complete purge of the Circle. [/quote]

Sticks and stones

[quote]I have never once advocated the entire dissolution of the Templar Order. Great strawman! [/quote]

And I have never advocated the entire purging of the circle. I guess this is when your head explodes.

[quote]What I have done is advocate that the Templar Order in Kirkwall is too corrupt to be sided with, much less to trust to do their duty in the true sense before the RoA, during the RoA*, and after the RoA.[/quote]

And I have advocated that the circle needs to be clean of blood mages once and for all and for the safety of Kirkwall, its better to side with the Templars, as weak mages will be pushed into demon summoning and endagering people's lives.

[quote]I have always advocated the Templars' necessity because I know the dangers Mages pose.[/quote]

Really? Didn't notice that around all your bellyaching.


[quote]It's Aveline's job when Demons and Blood Mages are not the concern, which in Act 3 two out of the three criminal gangs involve either the former or latter. The Followers of She are led by a Demon and it's clear by the note you find that Demons are involved. The Bloodragers are blood mage apostates that enthrall citizens with their magic and reside in Hightown where the ****ing Templars have some of their men for crying out loud.[/quote]

Now this, you actually make a good point....finally. It would have been nice to see the random Templar in the middle of the fight. But then again, the only time you actually see guardsmen at work is when Aveline wanted to stalk Donnic. So I have to chalk it up to game crap on both sides.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 06 mars 2013 - 06:52 .

[dragonflight288]

Hazegurl said....

snip

You say I'm wrong? While I may not be in your mind regarding your roleplaying experiences, and you may not be in mine, (although you did have a fascinating roleplaying experience from what you wrote out about your Hawke's motivations), the Right of Annulment, by its very definition, is purging the circle completely. That means killing every last mage. From every man and woman, from First Enchanter to apprentice, including the children.

If Bethany is in the Circle, then she is, by definition, included in that purge. Your Hawke may want to spare her, but Meredith still demands her death. Your Hawke supports killing every mage, but wishes to spare one and have her be an exception?

Ah well, your playthrough.

But it is interesting to note that while you cite all these mages, after having been treated like dirt by the templars for so long, and had been driven to desperation, that the fact that they do desperate things as proof that mages are too dangerous...would it not be better if the mages simply weren't driven to desperate measures in the first place and have the templars hunt the mage criminals, and focus only on the criminals?

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
But it is interesting to note that while you cite all these mages, after having been treated like dirt by the templars for so long, and had been driven to desperation, that the fact that they do desperate things as proof that mages are too dangerous...would it not be better if the mages simply weren't driven to desperate measures in the first place and have the templars hunt the mage criminals, and focus only on the criminals?

Chicken and egg here.

First of all, only SOME mages were abused.

The argument that all circles are corrupt and templars are evil is the same line of reasoning as "Oh. Guantanamo Bay happened? Let's close down ALL prisons!"

It has been proven time and time again that those incidents are exceptions. Bethany herself is perfectly content and doens't rise up besause she or any mage where abused - but because no one should be locked up. That is her stated reason. That she suddenly blurt out after Orsino urges her. I still suspect blood magic at work there.



Second, chicken and the egg. Like I said before, you say mages going abomination is a natural response to templar pressure - well I say templar pressure is a natural response to mages d*** around.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Silfren wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

But there's the problem - Orsino has as much evidence of Merediths future actions and Meredith does of his - none!

And no, Meredith wasn't a unreasonable monster from day 1. She was strict, but a good templar. She only starts cracking after the idol.

She might not have been a total monster from the start, but she was FAR from reasonable.  Knight-Commander Gregoir was reasonable.  Meredith was never even in the same orbit.  Given the severe emotional trauma she suffered before becoming a Templar, I'd say she was VERY damaged.  Certainly NOT the sort of person you'd want watching mages, for the same reason that Gregoir didn't think it was safe for Cullen to be around the mages of the Tower where he suffered emotional trauma. 

If an aspiring police officer expresses an overzealous desire to put the uber!smackdown on criminals everywhere, generally you don't hire her, because going Rambo/Batman on some petty thief's ass is not generally considered acceptable.

I demand proof. Proof that Meredith was insane and unreasonable before the idol. And not that strict does not equal unreasonable.

Secondly, the incident with Merediths sister is long in the past. Heck, Cullen gets over his horrible experience in a year. I really didn't see the emotional trauma in Meredith you were talking about.

She would never have been put in charge is she was considered unstable. In fact, Meredith was regarded highly as an exemplary templar, which is why she was put in command in the first place.