141 réponses à ce sujet

[Redbelle]

HJF4 wrote...

I'm not saying this mod shouldn't be done. Only that you look at the character's in question and ask, does this mod take away or give more to their intended portrayel.

I believe all sexual orientations are equal and are inherent within a person.
In that specific context, it's little different from changing the eye colors of Shepard's love interests.
Traynor's lack of attraction to males is not a "life choice."

I believe the people who raised concern in this thread have very valid points in the context of a developing a mainstream game advertised and purchased by the general gaming masses. However, this is a mod, to be used or not used by the individual as they see fit, and everyone's modding choices only affect their game. The launch game by Bioware affected everyone's game.

Good point. Next question if I may.

Does all this mod do, is essentually replace a woman for a man, with Traynor, and a man with a woman, for cortez, with no other addition's? i.e. It's the same romance as portreyed before with a gender change?

[Lenimph]

HJF4 wrote...

I believe all sexual orientations are equal and are inherent within a person.
In that specific context, it's little different from changing the eye colors of Shepard's love interests.
Traynor's lack of attraction to males is not a "life choice."

I believe the people who raised concern in this thread have very valid points in the context of a developing a mainstream game advertised and purchased by the general gaming masses. However, this is a mod, to be used or not used by the individual as they see fit, and everyone's modding choices only affect their game. The launch game by Bioware affected everyone's game.

Just because it's a mod doesn't mean we can't discuss it's morality or sense of justice. And it's funny that you bring up mods that change the appearance of the love interests because probably the most immoral mod out there in terms of Bioware games does exactly that... and their justification for it is the exact same argument that it only effects their own games, "it's just a mod, don't get your panties in a bunch".

Modifié par Lenimph, 25 février 2013 - 07:45 .

[New Display Name]

Does all this mod do, is essentually replace a woman for a man, with Traynor, and a man with a woman, for cortez, with no other addition's? i.e. It's the same romance as portreyed before with a gender change?

Yes, as much as possible. Because the lines were not already recorded, I can't get the exact same words, but I can approximate by using and possibly splicing preexisting voice files.

By the way - it's not just Cortez or Traynor. It's everyone, including all of the "heterosexual" romances.

[jsamlaw]

Lenimph wrote...

Just because it's a mod doesn't mean we can't discuss it's morality or sense of justice. And it's funny that you bring up mods that change the appearance of the love interests because probably the most immoral mod out there in terms of Bioware games does exactly that... and their justification for it is the exact same argument that it only effects their own games, "it's just a mod, don't get your panties in a bunch".

If I, jsamlaw, download this mod and romanced Traynor with a male character on my computer, how does that affect you or any other LGBT person?  How would you even know, unless I personally contacted you and showed you the YouTube clip?

The canon Traynor will always be a lesbian.  The canon Cortez will always be gay.

Do you protest transgender operations in real life?  "If someone is born a man, they must stay a man!  If someone is born a woman, they must stay a woman!  Nevermind that the surgery is personal to them and their wishes, it's an affront to how God created them!"

The only reason I jumped into this discussion is I would love to pin down why you even care about this mod?  If you don't download it, it won't change your lesbian and gay characters.  Why do you care what someone else does in their own bedroom (computer)?

Modifié par jsamlaw, 25 février 2013 - 08:06 .

[Jonata]

jsamlaw wrote...

Lenimph wrote...

Just because it's a mod doesn't mean we can't discuss it's morality or sense of justice. And it's funny that you bring up mods that change the appearance of the love interests because probably the most immoral mod out there in terms of Bioware games does exactly that... and their justification for it is the exact same argument that it only effects their own games, "it's just a mod, don't get your panties in a bunch".

If I, jsamlaw, download this mod and romanced Traynor with a male character on my computer, how does that affect you or any other LGBT person?  How would you even know, unless I personally contacted you and showed you the YouTube clip?

The cannon Traynor will always be a lesbian.  The cannon Cortez will always be gay.

Do you protest transgender operations in real life?  "If someone is born a man, they must stay a man!  If someone is born a woman, they must stay a woman!  Nevermind that the surgery is personal to them and their wishes, it's an affront to how God created them!"

The only reason I jumped into this discussion is I would love to pin down why you even care about this mod?  If you don't download it, it won't change your lesbian and gay characters.  Why do you care what someone else does in their own bedroom (computer)?

Cannon Traynor and Cannon Cortez. Tell me more about these human weapons. 

[Redbelle]

Jonata wrote...

jsamlaw wrote...

Lenimph wrote...

Just because it's a mod doesn't mean we can't discuss it's morality or sense of justice. And it's funny that you bring up mods that change the appearance of the love interests because probably the most immoral mod out there in terms of Bioware games does exactly that... and their justification for it is the exact same argument that it only effects their own games, "it's just a mod, don't get your panties in a bunch".

If I, jsamlaw, download this mod and romanced Traynor with a male character on my computer, how does that affect you or any other LGBT person?  How would you even know, unless I personally contacted you and showed you the YouTube clip?

The cannon Traynor will always be a lesbian.  The cannon Cortez will always be gay.

Do you protest transgender operations in real life?  "If someone is born a man, they must stay a man!  If someone is born a woman, they must stay a woman!  Nevermind that the surgery is personal to them and their wishes, it's an affront to how God created them!"

The only reason I jumped into this discussion is I would love to pin down why you even care about this mod?  If you don't download it, it won't change your lesbian and gay characters.  Why do you care what someone else does in their own bedroom (computer)?

Cannon Traynor and Cannon Cortez. Tell me more about these human weapons. 

One of them's a rebound shell.

The other work's best in water.

[Lenimph]

jsamlaw wrote...

Do you protest transgender operations in real life?  "If someone is born a man, they must stay a man!  If someone is born a woman, they must stay a woman!  Nevermind that the surgery is personal to them and their wishes, it's an affront to how God created them!"

Nevermind that Samantha likes woman and that's her mind set of character and her business.  No we have to change that because it better suits my needs even though there are dozen of other available romances!  

I have no problem with transgenders, because they're making the choice to change their own gender on their own! If anything it's the modder playing god and making choices for characters and changing them.

It bothers me because I care a lot about character integrity.  I might think Garrus would make a better romance if he was human but I'm not going to make him one because then he's not Garrus anymore.  And it's not specifically because Samantha is a lesbian.  If one of the other characters, say Miranda, openly said she didn't like other woman to Shep/the player and someone made a mod making her gay other wise I would have the same issues with it. 

Modifié par Lenimph, 25 février 2013 - 08:37 .

[movieguyabw]

Lenimph wrote...

Just because it's a mod doesn't mean we can't discuss it's morality or sense of justice. And it's funny that you bring up mods that change the appearance of the love interests because probably the most immoral mod out there in terms of Bioware games does exactly that... and their justification for it is the exact same argument that it only effects their own games, "it's just a mod, don't get your panties in a bunch".

Is it really that immoral to allow for a bisexual option with Traynor and Steve, in a mod?  Is it really an injustice to make an optional modification to a game; which as has been stated, only affects the people who choose to download it?

I'm afraid I've only been on the forums since shortly before Mass Effect 3 was released; but I can't remember ever seeing any outcry over the fact that some people had modified their Mass Effect 1 and 2 games, to allow for FemShep/Miranda romances, or MaleShep/Kaiden romances before it was announced that Kaiden was attracted to men.  Heck, I've modded my gamesave to have my FemShep in an active romance with Liara, Garrus, and Traynor at the same time in one playthrough.  Is it an unjust breach of character to have those characters in a polyamorous relationship; when none of them are typically interested in something like that?  Have I done something immoral by romancing Tali as a Female Shepard, or Garrus as a Male Shep?   Because I really don't think I have.

[jsamlaw]

Lenimph wrote...

I have no problem with transgenders, because they're making the choice to change their own gender on their own! If anything it's the modder playing god and making choices for characters and changing them.

So, the hair you're splitting is that the modder is changing a fictional video game character's sexual preference, rather than their own?  We're not talking about a real life pill that is being forced into a live human being.  We're talking about video game pixels -- and more importantly private server (the term I'm using for the game on MY computer system) video game pixels.

It seems as though you make no distinction between me changing MY Samantha and not in any way changing YOUR Samantha (or the published BioWare version of Samantha)?  The private change of something on my own game is somehow categorically immoral?  If you truly feel that way there's nothing more to discuss, though I feel that's being a bit extreme.

Modifié par jsamlaw, 25 février 2013 - 08:42 .

[Lenimph]

movieguyabw wrote...



I'm afraid I've only been on the forums since shortly before Mass Effect 3 was released; but I can't remember ever seeing any outcry over the fact that some people had modified their Mass Effect 1 and 2 games, to allow for FemShep/Miranda romances, or MaleShep/Kaiden romances before it was announced that Kaiden was attracted to men.  Heck, I've modded my gamesave to have my FemShep in an active romance with Liara, Garrus, and Traynor at the same time in one playthrough.  Is it an unjust breach of character to have those characters in a polyamorous relationship; when none of them are typically interested in something like that?  Have I done something immoral by romancing Tali as a Female Shepard, or Garrus as a Male Shep?   Because I really don't think I have.

I think you didn't read my previous posts. None of those characters explicity told Shep they wouldn't date them because of their gender. In those situaions Shepard was flirt locked and couldnt make a move. Samantha has however, and that whats makes me uneasy. 

I wasn't addressing the downloaders of the mod as much as I was addressing the modder's motivation to make it.

Modifié par Lenimph, 25 février 2013 - 08:53 .

[New Display Name]

Lenimph wrote...
Just because it's a mod doesn't mean we can't discuss it's morality or sense of justice.

I never said you couldn't, despite the fact I'm being told to stop. In fact I think it's fine to discuss.

And it's funny that you bring up mods that change the appearance of the love interests because probably the most immoral mod out there in terms of Bioware games does exactly that... and their justification for it is the exact same argument that it only effects their own games, "it's just a mod, don't get your panties in a bunch".

My motivation is to provide more options to players (who choose to mod their own private game). Nothing more than that. If you assume more than that, you are mistaken. I don't really know what "immoral" mod you're referring to, by the way.

Modifié par HJF4, 25 février 2013 - 08:58 .

[Zjarcal]

jsamlaw wrote...


It seems as though you make no distinction between me changing MY Samantha and not in any way changing YOUR Samantha

There's no such thing as "your or mine" when it comes to the set characters created and completely in control of the writers, they're not "our" characters.

Shepard is the only character for whom you can say "my" character (or more accurately, "our" character with Bioware being the other co-creator).

[nrobbiec]

Kaidan and Ashley(? didn't know there was femshep/ashley but whatever) aren't straight, gay or bi by default, their sexuality is determined by the sex of your Shepard. If Shepard is a man, Kaidan likes men.

[Lenimph]

HJF4 wrote...

My motivation is to provide more options to players (who choose to mod their own private game). Nothing more than that. If you assume more than that, you are mistaken. I don't really know what "immoral" mod you're referring to, by the way.

Ah the "sexy faired skin Isabela"  mod.  

[New Display Name]

There's no such thing as "your or mine" when it comes to the set characters created and completely in control of the writers, they're not "our" characters.

If that is your perspective, do you object to mods such as James flirting with male Shepard (which was what I started with)? You said that these characters are not "mine" or "yours." This mod would change dialog so James flirts (which is a choice James could make) with male Shepard. Is that immoral?

Modifié par HJF4, 25 février 2013 - 09:02 .

[Zjarcal]

HJF4 wrote...

There's no such thing as "your or mine" when it comes to the set characters created and completely in control of the writers, they're not "our" characters.

If that is your perspective, do you object to mods such as James flirting with male Shepard (which was what I started with)? You said that these characters are not "mine" or "yours." This mod would change dialog so James flirts (which is a choice James could make) with male Shepard. Is that immoral?

I don't "object" to mods, I honestly don't care what you do with your game. I don't like mods that alter the character's personalities in any way (cosmetic ones also bother me a bit, unless it's minor stuff like a different hairstyle), but if you want to play your game like this, well, whatever, not my business really.

I still think by using such mods, you're doing a huge disservice to the characters involved (as well as disrespecting the writers).

Also, I never brought morality into the conversation.

[jsamlaw]

Zjarcal wrote...

There's no such thing as "your or mine" when it comes to the set characters created and completely in control of the writers, they're not "our" characters.

Shepard is the only character for whom you can say "my" character (or more accurately, "our" character with Bioware being the other co-creator).

I disagree.  My ending has Shepard draped in the arms of his lover, Liara, after a triumphant victory over the Reapers (MEHEM).  Your ending may or may not be the same.  That is the nature of mods.  I agree that the canon version of certain characters, as established by the BioWare writing staff, conforms to a particular set of beliefs.  But that is far different than my particular version of those same characters, if modified.

If you're arguing that you physically can't change the characters on a PC, then you're just barking up the wrong tree because it is possible and modders have been doing it for years.  If you're arguing that its categorically (i.e. on a cosmic objective level) wrong to modify said ficticious characters, then I'd love for you to explain why that is so.

[Mr.House]

And the white Isabela mod has been dethroned as the worst mod for a Bioware game. Never thought it would be possible.

[MrStoob]

How dare people fantasise about fictional characters!

[movieguyabw]

Lenimph wrote...

movieguyabw wrote...



I'm afraid I've only been on the forums since shortly before Mass Effect 3 was released; but I can't remember ever seeing any outcry over the fact that some people had modified their Mass Effect 1 and 2 games, to allow for FemShep/Miranda romances, or MaleShep/Kaiden romances before it was announced that Kaiden was attracted to men.  Heck, I've modded my gamesave to have my FemShep in an active romance with Liara, Garrus, and Traynor at the same time in one playthrough.  Is it an unjust breach of character to have those characters in a polyamorous relationship; when none of them are typically interested in something like that?  Have I done something immoral by romancing Tali as a Female Shepard, or Garrus as a Male Shep?   Because I really don't think I have.

I think you didn't read my previous posts. None of those characters explicity told Shep they wouldn't date them because of their gender. In those situaions Shepard was flirt locked and couldnt make a move. Samantha has however, and that whats makes me uneasy. 

I wasn't addressing the downloaders of the mod as much as I was addressing the modder's motivation to make it.

Well, they all tell you they aren't interested in you, if you were in a romance with them previously; and you decide to romance someone else.  Which pretty much says they aren't interested in a polyamorous relationship with you and someone else. 

For the record, I'd have no desire for a mod like this myself - for much the same reason you pointed out:  with the others, there was never a definite "I'm not interested in x gender".  I can't speak for Cortez, because I haven't seen his whole romance subplot, but Traynor does say she isn't interested in guys.  Personally, I kind of liked that little exchange between her and my male Shep.

Though, I don't think it's wrong for people to want to change something like that in their own game.  It has no bearing on the actual character - only on the player's experience. 

Modifié par movieguyabw, 25 février 2013 - 09:14 .

[Mr.House]

nrobbiec wrote...

Kaidan and Ashley(? didn't know there was femshep/ashley but whatever) aren't straight, gay or bi by default, their sexuality is determined by the sex of your Shepard. If Shepard is a man, Kaidan likes men.

So Rahna is a dude if you're a male Shep?

[New Display Name]

nrobbiec wrote...

Kaidan and Ashley(? didn't know there was femshep/ashley but whatever) aren't straight, gay or bi by default, their sexuality is determined by the sex of your Shepard. If Shepard is a man, Kaidan likes men.

If I recall correctly, Karl is described as either Ander's friend or lover depending on Hawke's gender.

[Zjarcal]

jsamlaw wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

There's no such thing as "your or mine" when it comes to the set characters created and completely in control of the writers, they're not "our" characters.

Shepard is the only character for whom you can say "my" character (or more accurately, "our" character with Bioware being the other co-creator).

I disagree.  My ending has Shepard draped in the arms of his lover, Liara, after a triumphant victory over the Reapers (MEHEM).  Your ending may or may not be the same.  That is the nature of mods.  I agree that the canon version of certain characters, as established by the BioWare writing staff, conforms to a particular set of beliefs.  But that is far different than my particular version of those same characters, if modified.

I couldn't even begin to give a rat's ass about MEHEM.

If you're arguing that you physically can't change the characters on a PC, then you're just barking up the wrong tree because it is possible and modders have been doing it for years.  If you're arguing that its categorically (i.e. on a cosmic objective level) wrong to modify said ficticious characters, then I'd love for you to explain why that is so.

I'm not arguing either.

Of course you can do whatever you want with mods, make Shepard a collector if you want, and while you're at it you can also make TIM an alien loving person who truly wants to defeat the Reapers by just muting his voice and adding subtitles and editing scenes.

If you want to modify characters that aren't your own to suit your needs and destroy the game's integrity, be my guest, but don't expect me to think you have any respect for the writers if you do that.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 25 février 2013 - 09:18 .

[nrobbiec]

Mr.House wrote...

nrobbiec wrote...

Kaidan and Ashley(? didn't know there was femshep/ashley but whatever) aren't straight, gay or bi by default, their sexuality is determined by the sex of your Shepard. If Shepard is a man, Kaidan likes men.

So Rahna is a dude if you're a male Shep?

It's never stated she's anything other than a fellow student/friend. At least not when I'm playing it, first I hear about it is when she gets beaten by the Turian and Kaidan stands up for her. 

@HJF4 I have no idea what you just said 

Modifié par nrobbiec, 25 février 2013 - 09:19 .

[Lenimph]

Shepard collector is already possible with out mods Zjar

Tis canon.