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The role of men in the Dragon Age series


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#26
Yuqi

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DuckSoup wrote...

Yuqi wrote...

SilverMoonDragon wrote...

Honestly, what bothers me is this... obsession people have with conforming to stereotypes, for either gender. Why must there be a certain way men must behave? Or women? When it is abundantly clear that there is a lot of diversity in who people are, how they act, who they are in society...to me, stereotypes are useless things that only create a breeding ground for ignorance, narrow-minds and sexism.
Like DuckSoup said, I'm glad that Bioware doesn't conform to just stereotypes, there are a variety of characters in either gender that are spread out across the spectrum in individuality and don't necessarily conform to stereotypes.


It is the will of allah.


Allah? Da hell have you been smoking?! There is only Jesus here, boy. Move along. 


Jesus is just a prophet.

#27
sarakirrer

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Plaintiff wrote...

It's pretty damn hilarious, in fact, that Alistair's personality draws criticism from male players, who accuse the writers of creating him to deliberately pander to female tastes. If they truly believe that that's what's going on, then they should probably pay more attention to his character and take note, because from what I can tell, he's pretty damn popular with the chicks.


I've always thought this but have never seen anyone else say it until now. I mean, seriously, why are some dudes pissed that women like him instead of thinking about WHY they do? And maybe, you know, taking notes? :lol:

Modifié par sarakirrer, 24 février 2013 - 02:27 .


#28
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whykikyouwhy wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

Is this really what men like to believe? That the women are so afraid of sensitive, caring men that they must reinforce the status quo by depicting males in video games as either violent and relegating them to being cardboard cutouts?

Where are the good caring men who enable their women to be better than they were before?

I don't know that it's necessarily what men like to believe so much as it is what they are conditioned to believe, or conditioned to act upon. Decades and centuries of society defining what a man should be or what a woman should be is so deeply ingrained - if a man isn't rugged, tough, stoic, strong, etc, then he is (per these skewed norms) less of a man. Even the language we use reinforces this (particularly what men are called when they don't meet these "rough and rugged" criterion). So a man who acts different from these expected behaviors is subject to ridicule, bullying, etc. (And thus, the vicious circle.)

We've been slow to find and embrace that space where people are people - a harmony of a stiff upper lip and the ability to be openly caring - and not just these two divergent boxes of gender types and labels, each layered with stereotypes. 

I think BioWare has done a good job in having male characters written to show some sensitivity - an affectionate, caring side that doesn't take away from their ability to fight, and fight for a cause. A bit of balance. I think we'll see more of their ilk though. I think the companions of future games will move out of and beyond the cardboard.



I concur, couldn't have said it better myself :)

#29
Plaintiff

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sarakirrer wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

It's pretty damn hilarious, in fact, that Alistair's personality draws criticism from male players, who accuse the writers of creating him to deliberately pander to female tastes. If they truly believe that that's what's going on, then they should probably pay more attention to his character and take note, because from what I can tell, he's pretty damn popular with the chicks.


I've always thought this but have never seen anyone else say it until now. I mean, seriously, why are some dudes pissed that women like him instead of thinking about WHY they do? And maybe, you know, taking notes? :lol:

His technique works on me too. I would be all over that like pepperoni on pizza.

#30
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Plaintiff wrote...

I think the role of men in Dragon Age is just fine. I think all the characters are well-written, and the fact that I strongly dislike and even hate some of them is a testament to just how well-written they are.

Alistair I found extremely endearing, and I wish I'd been able to romance him as a male. There isn't anything the least bit "sissy" about him. It takes courage to be so emotionally open as Alistair is with wardens of either gender. Feelings are not a "girl" thing, they're an "everyone" thing, and I think it's terribly sad that, in the real world, men are under so much pressure to hide their emotions.

It's pretty damn hilarious, in fact, that Alistair's personality draws criticism from male players, who accuse the writers of creating him to deliberately pander to female tastes. If they truly believe that that's what's going on, then they should probably pay more attention to his character and take notes, because from what I can tell, he'd be scoring a metric ton of tail if he actually existed.


I completely agree with you. 

#31
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DuckSoup wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I think the role of men in Dragon Age is just fine. I think all the characters are well-written, and the fact that I strongly dislike and even hate some of them is a testament to just how well-written they are.

Alistair I found extremely endearing, and I wish I'd been able to romance him as a male. There isn't anything the least bit "sissy" about him. It takes courage to be so emotionally open as Alistair is with wardens of either gender. Feelings are not a "girl" thing, they're an "everyone" thing, and I think it's terribly sad that, in the real world, men are under so much pressure to hide their emotions.

It's pretty damn hilarious, in fact, that Alistair's personality draws criticism from male players, who accuse the writers of creating him to deliberately pander to female tastes. If they truly believe that that's what's going on, then they should probably pay more attention to his character and take notes, because from what I can tell, he'd be scoring a metric ton of tail if he actually existed.


I completely agree with you. 



Me too :)

#32
philippe willaume

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mousestalker wrote...

So I just read the thread on the role of women and considering that the Dragon Age series has an a mostly male design staff and appeals mostly to men I was just wondering what your thoughts on this were and what you think of the role of men in the Dragon Age series?

Is this really what men like to believe? That the women are so afraid of sensitive, caring men that they must reinforce the status quo by depicting males in video games as either violent and relegating them to being cardboard cutouts?

Where are the good caring men who enable their women to be better than they were before?

Well patriarchal culture goes both way you known's...

 

I am 5,11-220 lbs, I have done martial arts for about 30
years, I still train 3-4 time a week. I have played rugby and American football.
I am fairly competitive and a I like contact sports and I believe in intense training
sessions.

When I was jousting I was told that I am hitting like a fret
train, but to be fair I have been riding for 35 years and Newton is on my side

I am member of a drinking club with a  martial art problem.

 

Yet I have been told I am a big softy, by men and woman, because
I am nice soft and cuddly with horses. (which I am, but then a horse is about 8
time my weight and moves quicker, so getting on its good side seems a good tactical
positioning)

 

you see, no matters how many of those you see

https://www.facebook...&type=3

https://www.facebook...&type=3

https://www.facebook...&type=3

 

The one that will stick are

https://www.facebook...&type=3

https://www.facebook...&type=3

https://www.facebook...&type=3

 

To answer your last question

They are happily married because their woman have enable
their man to be  better than they were before

#33
sarakirrer

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Plaintiff wrote...

sarakirrer wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

It's pretty damn hilarious, in fact, that Alistair's personality draws criticism from male players, who accuse the writers of creating him to deliberately pander to female tastes. If they truly believe that that's what's going on, then they should probably pay more attention to his character and take note, because from what I can tell, he's pretty damn popular with the chicks.


I've always thought this but have never seen anyone else say it until now. I mean, seriously, why are some dudes pissed that women like him instead of thinking about WHY they do? And maybe, you know, taking notes? :lol:

His technique works on me too. I would be all over that like pepperoni on pizza.


I'm semi-ashamed to admit that pretty much 99% of the reason I bought DA:O was because I happened to watch one of my friends start up a romance with Alistair on his female mage warden. I just couldn't resist after that.

#34
HK-90210

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SilverMoonDragon wrote...

Honestly, what bothers me is this... obsession people have with conforming to stereotypes, for either gender. Why must there be a certain way men must behave? Or women? When it is abundantly clear that there is a lot of diversity in who people are, how they act, who they are in society...to me, stereotypes are useless things that only create a breeding ground for ignorance, narrow-minds and sexism.
Like DuckSoup said, I'm glad that Bioware doesn't conform to just stereotypes, there are a variety of characters in either gender that are spread out across the spectrum in individuality and don't necessarily conform to stereotypes.


For starters, I agree with your central premise. Men and women should not be required to fit into the stereotypes of behavior that their gender is 'supposed' to have. They will still feel pressued to do so, since that's how social dynamics work. But both men and women vary to high degrees, and should never be made to think they just becasue they don't fit the supposed ideal that culture has put up for their gender, that they are somehow less worthy of the title of Man or Woman.

However, that does not mean that a culture having a view of male and female behavior isn't without its merits. Men and women are inherently different in many ways. Not irreconcilably so(afterall, we've managed to put up with eachother for the past 200,000 years or so), but trying to make men and women fit into the exact same cardboard box doesn't work any better. And some aspects(Not ALL, and I really want to stress that!) of the sterotypes are, in fact, accurate. A stereotype doesn't just come into begin. At its heart, their tends to be a grain of truth. Sorry if that offends, but it's true.

So what ends up bothering me more than people being forced to fit into a stereotype, is when people DO fit the stereotype in some respects are critisized for doing so, and called 'repressed' or some other adjective. What is wrong with behaving in a way that a solid portion of your gender does? I'm a guy, and yes, I DO like my booze, beer and football, thank you(well, two out of the three. I'll leave you to guess which oneImage IPB). I'm also kind, respectful, and yes, I'll open a door for a lady, and I'll pay for lunch(If it's ok with her, of course). Why should I be made to feel like this is not perfectly acceptable? My sister wanted to marry a good provider, stay at home and have a bunch of kids. Why should some of her friends pressure her to 'take more charge of her life', when she doesn't want to, and likes where she's at?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the cultural expectations about men and women aren't just some form of social repression. They have in them some measure of truth. There is nothing inherently wrong with breaking with them, if that's just not how you're built. But if you do, you shouldn't be made to think that that is wrong.

........ok, no I have to bring this back to Dragon Age.......

Ok, uh....I appluad the Dragon Age team for making a concerted effort to provided a balanced view of male/female archetypes, and push the boundaries of both. Nothing wrong with breaking a few of the gender rules. Afterall, Isabella the pirate sees them as more like...guidelines...

Modifié par CastonFolarus, 24 février 2013 - 02:42 .


#35
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sarakirrer wrote...

I'm semi-ashamed to admit that pretty much 99% of the reason I bought DA:O was because I happened to watch one of my friends start up a romance with Alistair on his female mage warden. I just couldn't resist after that.


I was like *dreamy sigh* when he got all confused and flustered. His shyness and sensitivity was very attractive and there is absolutely nothing wrong with a man being that way. 

#36
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CastonFolarus wrote...

SilverMoonDragon wrote...

Honestly, what bothers me is this... obsession people have with conforming to stereotypes, for either gender. Why must there be a certain way men must behave? Or women? When it is abundantly clear that there is a lot of diversity in who people are, how they act, who they are in society...to me, stereotypes are useless things that only create a breeding ground for ignorance, narrow-minds and sexism.
Like DuckSoup said, I'm glad that Bioware doesn't conform to just stereotypes, there are a variety of characters in either gender that are spread out across the spectrum in individuality and don't necessarily conform to stereotypes.


For starters, I agree with your central premise. Men and women should not be required to fit into the stereotypes of behavior that their gender is 'supposed' to have. They will still feel pressued to do so, since that's how social dynamics work. But both men and women vary to high degrees, and should never be made to think they just becasue they don't fit the supposed ideal that culture has put up for their gender, that they are somehow less worthy of the title of Man or Woman.

However, that does not mean that a culture having a view of male and female behavior isn't without its merits. Men and women are inherently different in many ways. Not irreconcilably so(afterall, we've managed to put up with eachother for the past 200,000 years or so), but trying to make men and women fit into the exact same cardboard box doesn't work any better. And some aspects(Not ALL, and I really want to stress that!) of the sterotypes are, in fact, accurate. A stereotype doesn't just come into begin. At its heart, their tends to be a grain of truth. Sorry if that offends, but it's true.

So what ends up bothering me more than people being forced to fit into a stereotype, is when people DO fit the stereotype in some respects are critisized for doing so, and called 'repressed' or some other adjective. What is wrong with behaving in a way that a solid portion of your gender does? I'm a guy, and yes, I DO like my booze, beer and football, thank you(well, two out of the three. I'll leave you to guess which oneImage IPB). I'm also kind, respectful, and yes, I'll open a door for a lady, and I'll pay for lunch(If it's ok with her, of course). Why should I be made to feel like this is not perfectly acceptable? My sister wanted to marry a good provider, stay at home and have a bunch of kids. Why should some of her friends pressure her to 'take more charge of her life', when she doesn't want to, and likes where she's at?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the cultural expectations about men and women aren't just some form of social repression. They have in them some measure of truth. There is nothing inherently wrong with breaking with them, if that's just not how you're built. But if you do, you shouldn't be made to think that that is wrong.

........ok, no I have to bring this back to Dragon Age.......

Ok, uh....I appluad the Dragon Age team for making a concerted effort to provided a balanced view of male/female archetypes, and push the boundaries of both. Nothing wrong with breaking a few of the gender rules. Afterall, Isabella the pirate sees them as more like...guidelines...



I appreciate what you're saying, and I agree with you. I wasn't denying that some people, who they are, do indeed have similarites with a typical stereotype, I was more referring to the people who have the idea men or women should conform to stereotypes, and don't understand why some don't. But hey, I know there are some who may indeed inhabit many of the qualities that happen to fall under a certain stereotype, if that's who they are than great. I'm more about the acceptence of who a person is, and supportive of the understanding that not all fall under a certain catagory. When I get upset, that's because of the attitude that women HAVE to be like this and men HAVE to be like that and the people who pander to those ideas, it's that narrowmindedness and ignorance in the "HAVE to" that bothers me. Everyone is different, and everyone should feel completely comfortable to embrace who they are...sadly not everyone is.

Anyway, onto what a few people have said about Alistair...I am so with you, when my brother first played DAO, I watched him and when I saw Alistair...I was like, he will be mine :devil:, jk jk, seriously, so much of the reason why I wanted to play DAO is the diversity of the characters, in either gender. I love that Bioware wrote a male character that wasn't under the stereotype of a typical male warrior, and I know several people both male and female alike that feel the same way. 
Long story short...Alistair is awesome :wub:

Modifié par SilverMoonDragon, 24 février 2013 - 02:59 .


#37
Anthadlas

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DuckSoup wrote...

sarakirrer wrote...

I'm semi-ashamed to admit that pretty much 99% of the reason I bought DA:O was because I happened to watch one of my friends start up a romance with Alistair on his female mage warden. I just couldn't resist after that.


I was like *dreamy sigh* when he got all confused and flustered. His shyness and sensitivity was very attractive and there is absolutely nothing wrong with a man being that way. 


Not really relevent but I find ur pic disturbing xD

#38
HK-90210

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SilverMoonDragon wrote...
I appreciate what you're saying, and I agree with you. I wasn't denying that some people, who they are, do indeed have similarites with a typical stereotype, I was more referring to the people who have the idea men or women should conform to stereotypes, and don't understand why some don't. But hey, I know there are some who may indeed inhabit many of the qualities that happen to fall under a certain stereotype, if that's who they are than great. I'm more about the acceptence of who a person is, and supportive of the understanding that not all fall under a certain catagory. When I get upset, that's because of the attitude that women HAVE to be like this and men HAVE to be like that and the people who pander to those ideas, it's that narrowmindedness and ignorance in the "HAVE to" that bothers me. Everyone is different, and everyone should feel completely comfortable to embrace who they are...sadly not everyone is.


Fair enough. Understanding achieved. It's been a good morning on the BSN.

#39
Ashelsu

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Actualy, I found Alistair crying rivers over Duncan, while my Cousland and Tabris tried to cope what happenned to them during origins too much overboard. And I don't find his infantilism endearing at all.
I don't mind characters like Alistair, as long as they are counterbalanced by somebody like Canderous, for example. Everybody is supersensitive boy is no better than everybody is supermacho.

#40
bleetman

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Wraith 02 wrote...

mousestalker wrote...
Is this really what men like to believe? That the women are so afraid of sensitive, caring men that they must reinforce the status quo by depicting males in video games as either violent and relegating them to being cardboard cutouts?


This is just how all men would like to view themselves, as strong, independant and a provider to the rest of the world. Men play video games to escape into a world where they can pretend to be something better and that wouldn't work if the character was a wimp and went around hugging everybody and giving sensitive advice. That isn't a fantasy game it's just marriage xD

And you know this, presumably, having questioned every man on the planet on the subject.

Modifié par bleetman, 24 février 2013 - 03:18 .


#41
chuckles471

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The ignorance of some of the people on this thread. "People don't think like me, so they must be afraid to show feeling or are secretly gay". Yuk, I hate amateur psychology.

Yes I think Alister is a sissy but I do understand they were trying to have a wide range of characters. And if I want a carefree personality, I will go with Sten, Ogrhan or Zevran. Also it be boring if everyone was stern like Sten, just as it would be if they were all cry babies like Alister.

#42
Anthadlas

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bleetman wrote...

Wraith 02 wrote...

mousestalker wrote...
Is this really what men like to believe? That the women are so afraid of sensitive, caring men that they must reinforce the status quo by depicting males in video games as either violent and relegating them to being cardboard cutouts?


This is just how all men would like to view themselves, as strong, independant and a provider to the rest of the world. Men play video games to escape into a world where they can pretend to be something better and that wouldn't work if the character was a wimp and went around hugging everybody and giving sensitive advice. That isn't a fantasy game it's just marriage xD

And you know this, presumably, having questioned every man on the planet on the subject.


It's my opinion, I never stated it as an outright fact hence why we are discussing this.....

The genralisation of men in video games is based on the stereotypes of sociatal norms, I don't have the time to interview every single man on the planet and doing so would be a massive waste of time so we can only summarise a groups opinion, in this case men, by using the most commonly held view, that men like to be manly

If your opinion differs then feel free to state it but don't except me to change my view of what could be the common problem based on 1 outlying opinion

#43
bleetman

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Wraith 02 wrote...

It's my opinion, I never stated it as an outright fact hence why we are discussing this.....

The genralisation of men in video games is based on the stereotypes of sociatal norms, I don't have the time to interview every single man on the planet and doing so would be a massive waste of time so we can only summarise a groups opinion, in this case men, by using the most commonly held view, that men like to be manly

If your opinion differs then feel free to state it but don't except me to change my view of what could be the common problem based on 1 outlying opinion

Then don't say things like "all X think Y", hmm?

Modifié par bleetman, 24 février 2013 - 03:27 .


#44
philippe willaume

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chuckles471 wrote...

The ignorance of some of the people on this thread. "People don't think like me, so they must be afraid to show feeling or are secretly gay". Yuk, I hate amateur psychology.

Yes I think Alister is a sissy but I do understand they were trying to have a wide range of characters. And if I want a carefree personality, I will go with Sten, Ogrhan or Zevran. Also it be boring if everyone was stern like Sten, just as it would be if they were all cry babies like Alister.


I though alister char was coherent with himself, I choose to put Anora on the throne so It did not end up too well.
but it was nice to have a more introspective. as you said there was a wide range of character in DA:0 

phil

#45
Anthadlas

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bleetman wrote...

Wraith 02 wrote...

It's my opinion, I never stated it as an outright fact hence why we are discussing this.....

The genralisation of men in video games is based on the stereotypes of sociatal norms, I don't have the time to interview every single man on the planet and doing so would be a massive waste of time so we can only summarise a groups opinion, in this case men, by using the most commonly held view, that men like to be manly

If your opinion differs then feel free to state it but don't except me to change my view of what could be the common problem based on 1 outlying opinion

Then don't say things like "all X think Y", hmm? Stereotypical generalisations contribute nothing.


Again, it was a generalisation as i don't have time to find every opinion, It's impossible to discuss the role of men and women being stereotyped in videogames without referring to the fact that it is because of the stereotypes that people have about men and women that dictate what developers think people want from videogames. I wasn't stating it as true I was using it as a reason why genders play the specific roles in games that they do.

So atleast try to understand someone's point before you jump down their neck simply because you see a stereotype and think it is being used negatively 

Modifié par Wraith 02, 24 février 2013 - 03:33 .


#46
Gandalf-the-Fabulous

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Plaintiff wrote...
It's pretty damn hilarious, in fact, that Alistair's personality draws criticism from male players, who accuse the writers of creating him to deliberately pander to female tastes. If they truly believe that that's what's going on, then they should probably pay more attention to his character and take notes, because from what I can tell, he'd be scoring a metric ton of tail if he actually existed.


What the hell? Did you just deny and confirm the accusation at the same time? So what you are saying that in order for men to be more attractive to the opposite sex is try to be like Alistair who wasnt created to appeal to the opposite sex? Is that what you are saying because that seriously looks what you are saying?

Modifié par Gandalf-the-Fabulous, 24 février 2013 - 03:36 .


#47
bleetman

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Wraith 02 wrote...

Again, it was a generalisation as i don't have time to find every opinion, It's impossible to discuss the role of men and women being stereotyped in videogames without referring to the fact that it is because of the stereotypes that people have about men and women that dictate what developers think people want from videogames. I wasn't stating it as true I was using it as a reason why genders play the specific roles in games that they do.

So atleast try to understand someone's point before you jump down their neck simply because you see a stereotype and think it is being used negatively 

Yes, but I'm not saying you shouldn't discuss the stereotype. I'm saying you shouldn't perpetuate it. Statements along the lines of "all men think this" are, to me, the latter, not the former.

I get that it's your opinion. That's fine, and I wouldn't say you can't have one. What I am saying is that making claims to the degree of 'every person of this gender has this viewpoint' - which you did - is inherently ignorant. Explaining a stereotype on the generalisation that "all men think this way" is not an opinion I'm going to be accepting. As has already been discussed, human beings are more diverse than that.

Modifié par bleetman, 24 février 2013 - 03:51 .


#48
Oberkaiser

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I wonder if any of you realize that you're discussing fictional characters written by a team of unattractive middle-aged white people? None of these characters are believable outside of a gaming session where you suspend disbelief.

#49
Khayness

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Oberkaiser wrote...

I wonder if any of you realize that you're discussing fictional characters written by a team of unattractive middle-aged white people? None of these characters are believable outside of a gaming session where you suspend disbelief.


Oh, don't you dare talking like that about my waifu good sir! Or else there will be fistcuffs included.

#50
Anthadlas

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bleetman wrote...

Wraith 02 wrote...

Again, it was a generalisation as i don't have time to find every opinion, It's impossible to discuss the role of men and women being stereotyped in videogames without referring to the fact that it is because of the stereotypes that people have about men and women that dictate what developers think people want from videogames. I wasn't stating it as true I was using it as a reason why genders play the specific roles in games that they do.

So atleast try to understand someone's point before you jump down their neck simply because you see a stereotype and think it is being used negatively 

Yes, but I'm not saying you shouldn't discuss the stereotype. I'm saying you shouldn't perpetuate it. Statements along the lines of "all men think this" are, to me, the latter, not the former.


I give up you are clearly not getting the point and have simply got tunnel vision on 1 part of a discussion rather than the broader meaning of it.

Social stereotypes are the reason characters are stereotyped in games, whether they are true or not and whether or not you agree with them are irrelevent, so get off my back and stop trying to drag a reasoning debate into a conflict about opinions on stereotypes.

I have no opinion on whether that steroetype is true or not, I am mearly using its existence as a reason behind the characters acting as they do in Dragon Age

Modifié par Wraith 02, 24 février 2013 - 03:53 .