201 réponses à ce sujet

[Ophir147]

¡Question!

Can a character be a well written while also displaying largely stereotypical gender-specific behavior? Or are the two mutually exclusive?

[Zkyire]

DuckSoup wrote...

Well, firstly, I want to commend the creators of Dragon Age for not sticking to lame old stereotypes and being realistic with their character design. I personally found all the characters in DA:O to be quite accurate in their representation because you had a bit of a mixed bag. Nothing shouted to me "Well this is totally far-fetched!" 

- So many party members being attracted to your character whether you're male or female, even though they show no other signs of being bisexual (i.e. being attracted to anyone else).
- Elves being treated as second class citizens in lore yet none of your party members treat them as such.
- Play as a Mage and regular citizens aren't terrified of you.
- You get different stats based on species, but not sex.
- A scantily-clad woman (Isabella), with no magic, wearing but a little cloth can go into battle against armoured opponents over and over again over years and go through life without suffering any grevious wounds.
- The inspiration for the Chantry is a woman.
- The Mothers of the Chantry are all women.
- The Revered Mothers of the Chantry are all women
- The Grand Clerics of the Chantry are all women.
- The Divine of the Chantry is always a woman.
- If Zathrian dies then the leader of the Dalish in Ferelden is a woman, after her predecessor's lust for vengeance almost destroyed them all.
- The leader of the Dalish in Kirkwall is a woman.
- The leader of the Templars in Kirkwall is a woman.
- The Captain of the Guard in Kirkwall is a woman.
- The only two Seekers we've been shown have been women.
- The only Pirate Captain we've been shown has been a woman.
- Loghain's greatest Knight was a woman.
- When King Cailan was alive he was said to be incompetant when it comes to ruling compared to his wife.
- If Anora remains Queen then the ruler of Ferelden is a woman.
- Even if you marry Anora, you don't become King, but merely her consort.
- The ruler of Orlais is a woman.
- Possibly the greatest mage in the world (Flemeth) is a woman.

Dragon Age isn't "realistic" at all. There's no attempt at all with sex differences, gender roles, or any tension between the two. Everyone gets along, no question. It's solely for feel-good purposes and isn't compelling. It's a feminists wet dream.

DuckSoup wrote...

All the guys who are going to comment on
this thread about Alistair being a "sissy" and "a total ****" are likely
the kind of men who have problems with their own identity. Either
they've been denied the chance to express their true feminine side
because their peers would beat on them for it, or they're actually
closest homosexuals who act macho because nobody will figure it out if
they behave that way. Men like boobs, beer and football, donchaknow?

- Alistair is the senior Warden and yet relinquishes command of the group over to the PC because he doesn't like being responsible.
- Alistair whines about becoming King the entire game because he doesn't like being responsible.
- Alistair falls for every one of Morrigan's teases and rude comments.
- When his sister basically throws him out through no fault of his own, he doesn't stand his ground.

Unless the player actively hardens Alistair near the end of the game; he is a sissy. He's brave when it comes to things he knows he's good at; fighting. But when it comes to leadership? He's been relying on Duncan for that, and your character is likely even younger than him and has even less leadership experience, yet he just hands the reins over to you. You're supposed to be the new recruit, the amateur, and with Duncan gone the role of mentor was supposed to pass to him. And he chickened out. He is a sissy.

Modifié par Zkyire, 24 février 2013 - 04:02 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Oberkaiser wrote...

I wonder if any of you realize that you're discussing fictional characters written by a team of unattractive middle-aged white people? None of these characters are believable outside of a gaming session where you suspend disbelief.

I would wager that folks are quite aware that we're discussing fictional characters.

The attractiveness of the writing staff isn't relevant...I don't see how that has anything to do with how they do their jobs. I can't speak to their age or ethnic background, though both may influence their perspective of the world. I believe the writing staff meets for discussions and peer reviews to ensure that multiple viewpoints for their world-building are considered.

As for believability...the human aspects of the characters are quite believable, imo. They're relatable. The circumstances may be extreme, they may be fantastical, but how the characters react to each other and to their world reflects a lot of the human condition - the base emotions, goals and aspirations, etc. 

[bleetman]

Wraith 02 wrote...

I have no opinion on whether that steroetype is true or not, I am mearly using its existence as a reason behind the characters acting as they do in Dragon Age

If that's what you meant, then fair enough, but that's not what you said. Your original comment literally was 'this stereotype exists because of this other stereotypical generalisation'. If you can't defend that generalisation - and you can't, because it encompassed half the human race - don't make it in the first place. Or at least, don't present it as being some irrefutable fact.

Modifié par bleetman, 24 février 2013 - 03:59 .

[SpEcIaLRyAn]

If you think about it DA2 has a lot of Women in power. Think about it. The Vicount is male but doesn't have any real power. When he dies Meredith takes over. And lets be honest she had a lot more say in the politics in Kirkwall than the Vicount. Than theres the Grand Cleric who has much sway in the politics and decisions in Kirkwall as well. Now Cassandra the seeker who is interrogating Varic, I think thats a strong woman and does not fit any female stereotype. Aveline is captain of the guard. Leliana is and agent for the divine. Keeper Marethari is leader of the elven clan. Not to mention the player character, Hawke, can be female and has a lot of influence on the way the story develops.

A lot of DA2 has to do with the social theme of Women in power if you think about it. None of them really fit any gender stereotype. Now I am not saying that more can't be done to make women more prominent in the game but still Bioware have already done a great job making Women's role in Dragon Age more balanced to those of men.

Modifié par SpEcIaLRyAn, 24 février 2013 - 04:05 .

[Anthadlas]

bleetman wrote...

Wraith 02 wrote...

I have no opinion on whether that steroetype is true or not, I am mearly using its existence as a reason behind the characters acting as they do in Dragon Age

If that's what you meant, then fair enough, but that's not what you said. Your original comment literally was 'this stereotype exists because of this other stereotypical generalisation'. If you can't defend that generalisation - and you can't, because it encompassed half the human race - don't make it in the first place. Or at least, don't present it as being some irrefutable fact.

It was being used in context with the quote from the previous user, you cannot just take what i said out of context and display it as meaning something else without the source material it was intended for

[AlanC9]

Zkyire wrote...
- So many party members being attracted to your character whether you're male or female, even though they show no other signs of being bisexual ( i.e. being attracted to anyone else).

Fixed. Straight characters who aren't attracted to the PC don't usually flaunt their heterosexuality unless it's somehow a plot point.

[philippe willaume]

:ph34r:Self  censorship:ph34r:

Modifié par philippe willaume, 24 février 2013 - 04:29 .

[bleetman]

[Edit] Actually, nevermind. I can't see the point in derailing this any more.

Modifié par bleetman, 24 février 2013 - 04:26 .

[Iansectcrusher]

It couldn't have just stayed a joke thread...

[duckley]

Interesting comments about Alistair. @Zkyrie - would like to offer another perspective.

Zkyire wrote"
"- Alistair is the senior Warden and yet relinquishes command of the group over to the PC because he doesn't like being responsible"

 I am not sure his rationale is that he doesn't like being responsible. It may be that he believes he lacks sufficient experience to lead effectively or perhaps  he lacks confidence. Stepping down  or allowing someone else who you perceive as being better suited may be preferable to  providing poor leadership IMO. Its not as if AQlistair had years of experience as a Warden....Alistairs style could be construed as the lead- from-behind approach. He provided lots of info to the PC,  made suggestions and asked some pointed questions,sometimes resulting in the PC taking the same action he would have taken. And when called to lead  he did so. (i,e Kokari Wilds, he managed to calm Jory)

" Alistair whines about becoming King the entire game because he doesn't like being responsible".

Again, not sure this  is about taking responsibility. Dont forget, Alistair has been raised to hide the fact that he is Maric's bastard. Throwing his hat in the ring to become King, puts a target on his back.  Perhaps he would prefer to take on the responsibility of fighting darkspawn, dealing with the blight  and being a Warden  rather than dealing with the politics of being a King, dealing with nobles etc.


" Alistair falls for every one of Morrigan's teases and rude comments."

True enough - but he gives what he gets and touches a few sore points for Morrigan as well! LOL . I appreciated his dry wit.


" When his sister basically throws him out through no fault of his own, he doesn't stand his ground."

Not sure about this - sometimes 'descretion is the better part of valour'. Not sure what he should have done beyond givng her some coin and moving on. As someone who grew up without a family, connecting with one, can have deep meaning.  I am sure he spent a lot of time wondering about his "sister" and was  likley shocked how little his fantasy was borne out in reality.

"Unless the player actively hardens Alistair near the end of the game; he is a sissy. He's brave when it comes to things he knows he's good at; fighting. But when it comes to leadership? He's been relying on Duncan for that, and your character is likely even younger than him and has even less leadership experience, yet he just hands the reins over to you. You're supposed to be the new recruit, the amateur, and with Duncan gone the role of mentor was supposed to pass to him. And he chickened out. He is a sissy."

Alistair may be a sissy - although I am not sure what the defination of sissy really is. If  your PC was a Dalish Elf, a Dwarf or a Cousland, it is likley that these PC';s had considerable combat experience. This is not so true of a city Elf or Mage. When finally called to be King  (if you went that route) - Alistair stepped up to the plate. He gave credible speeches  to rally his countrymen and the troops when required and accepted his reponsibility - even at great personal cost (depending on your LI). He granted land to the Dalish and freedom to Mages (again depending on your choices) and stuck it to the status quo.

Some of Alistair's whining you have to admit was pretty crafty - I mean getting other people to darn your socks with a little guilt induction? C'mon that's brilliant!!

Now I did harden Alistair, so maybe there was less whining going that route. But hardening comes with maturity and experience, both of which Alistair gained on his journey through the blight. He lost everything that mattered to him, everything  that made him feel accepted and whole. Yup, he shed  tears when Duncan and all his fellow Wardens were slaughtered... I think many men would cry if they lost their entire unit or platoon on the battlefield - particularly if they were the only family they ever knew.

Alistair did seem to have a heart of gold (he even forgave Isolde for Makers sake - I would have slapped her personally). He was funny and compassionate, but brave. And I would jump into his bed in a heartbeat. (Sissy's rule!!!!! LOL)

 Yes - I love Alistair...  I am biased!  Grant me my wishes in fantasy!!!!!

I don't negate your point of view, just saying I have a different persepctive. I think that's what makes these boards fun for me. People have different points of view, Cant get my head around how some fans like Loghain as a character for example.   'Variety is the spice of life 'I  suppose!
 
 And yes - this is non-fiction - but I find games more engaging and enjoyable when you actually  care about the character. That what keeps me coming back for more!

Modifié par duckley, 24 février 2013 - 04:51 .

[DPSSOC]

mousestalker wrote...
Is this really what men like to believe? That the women are so afraid of sensitive, caring men that they must reinforce the status quo by depicting males in video games as either violent and relegating them to being cardboard cutouts?

 
It's more that some men are afraid of sensitive caring men.  More accurately we're frightened of them being presented as role models or desirable mates because it encourages children to be sensitive and caring and many of us grew up in circumstances where being such was unsafe.  Where I grew up if you were sensitive, if you displayed any emotion at all, you were a target.  The only emotion I ever felt comfortable expressing, and this has carried over into my adult life, was anger and only because I could back it up with violence.

It's an old holdout from a time when we had to compete violently for social standing in order to ensure the progression of our line, and it'll probably never go away entirely.

Ophir147 wrote...
¡Question!

Can a character be a well written while also displaying largely stereotypical gender-specific behavior? Or are the two mutually exclusive?

Yes so long as they aren't presented as a stereotype. When a character is written with the intent of making him/her a stereotype there's usually a palpable sense of self awareness about it; the writers know, the viewers know, even the character seems to know. If you present a stereotypical character completely straight faced, just have them be stereotypical without constantly having it pointed out, you can indeed have a well written stereotype.

[Phaedros]

The role of men? Sex objects for the Commander...

[Althix]

DuckSoup wrote...

secretsandlies wrote...

Shark will win.

You must show your method of reasoning behind this conclusion. Much like a math problem. 

given that shark can't walk the earth, fight will happen in the sea, as result shark will win.

[mousestalker]

Food for thought

[aphelion4]

Wait. People think Alistair is a sissy? looooooooooooooooool <<<:

You'd think it would require a crap-ton of testicular fortitude to sacrifice oneself to the archdemon, especially when this is something he can do for his friend or his lover. (I never played a Warden who wasn't at least friends with Alistair, so I don't know if he will sacrifice himself for an acquaintence/enemy?). Anyway, dying for someone takes courage (or not, depending on how you look at it I suppose--to me it took courage).

So he cries about his dead mentor who was like a father to him? OH NOES CUT OFF HIS BALLS HE IS NOT A MAN. I'm not exactly the most feminine girl out there, but I bawled my ass off when I had to put my cat down--MY CAT. If I had lost my father or a close friend, I can't even imagine the pain I would feel. Him crying over Duncan for such a long period of time isn't him being a sissy, it's him being someone who deals with grief differently than you (this is the collective you).

So he's not a heartless douchewaffle like Morrigan--thank God. (I like Morrigan too, don't hate on me. But really, if I knew a girl like Morrigan in person I would've punched the **** out of her stupid face if she ever opened her mouth.)

As per his leadership skills: Not everyone is a leader, and good ones are few. Were I in his position, I would pass the reins over to someone else if I knew they could handle it better than I could. Having someone's life in my hands would never sit well with me and it's a responsibility I would prefer someone else to have. So I guess I can understand Alistair here.

Although, during my playthroughs of DA:O I never got the feeling my Warden was flying solo in terms of decisions. I like to think there were many times off screen where they would all chat, discuss their next course of action (I mean everyone: the Warden, Alistair, Leliana, Wynne etc)--although this may just be rp'er/writer in me feeling that.

I can certainly relate to his hesitation with leading the party and becoming king, but he does indeed step up to the plate and I think because of his humility and experience with the world's crappiness, he would be a great king. Also, isn't Alistair supposed to be 18/20 years old? It was probably my high school, but all of the 18 year olds I knew were pot smoking whiners who ****ed about too much homework and wore their pants down past their knees.

So basically what I'm trying to say is...WCIF A GUY LIKE ALISTAIR IRL? I want one. >:

TL;DR VERSION

If you think Alistair is a sissy I think you are wrong/are one yourself and my opinion is clearly fact <<<<<<:

Also why isn't there a preview post button? Really BioWare?

Modifié par aphelion4, 24 février 2013 - 05:40 .

[Lenimph]

Nope he's still sissy because clearly my opinion is fact too.

[ReallyRue]

duckley wrote...

Interesting comments about Alistair. @Zkyrie - would like to offer another perspective.

Zkyire wrote"
"- Alistair is the senior Warden and yet relinquishes command of the group over to the PC because he doesn't like being responsible"

 I am not sure his rationale is that he doesn't like being responsible. It may be that he believes he lacks sufficient experience to lead effectively or perhaps  he lacks confidence. Stepping down  or allowing someone else who you perceive as being better suited may be preferable to  providing poor leadership IMO. Its not as if AQlistair had years of experience as a Warden....Alistairs style could be construed as the lead- from-behind approach. He provided lots of info to the PC,  made suggestions and asked some pointed questions,sometimes resulting in the PC taking the same action he would have taken. And when called to lead  he did so. (i,e Kokari Wilds, he managed to calm Jory)

" Alistair whines about becoming King the entire game because he doesn't like being responsible".

Again, not sure this  is about taking responsibility. Dont forget, Alistair has been raised to hide the fact that he is Maric's bastard. Throwing his hat in the ring to become King, puts a target on his back.  Perhaps he would prefer to take on the responsibility of fighting darkspawn, dealing with the blight  and being a Warden  rather than dealing with the politics of being a King, dealing with nobles etc.


" Alistair falls for every one of Morrigan's teases and rude comments."

True enough - but he gives what he gets and touches a few sore points for Morrigan as well! LOL . I appreciated his dry wit.


" When his sister basically throws him out through no fault of his own, he doesn't stand his ground."

Not sure about this - sometimes 'descretion is the better part of valour'. Not sure what he should have done beyond givng her some coin and moving on. As someone who grew up without a family, connecting with one, can have deep meaning.  I am sure he spent a lot of time wondering about his "sister" and was  likley shocked how little his fantasy was borne out in reality.

"Unless the player actively hardens Alistair near the end of the game; he is a sissy. He's brave when it comes to things he knows he's good at; fighting. But when it comes to leadership? He's been relying on Duncan for that, and your character is likely even younger than him and has even less leadership experience, yet he just hands the reins over to you. You're supposed to be the new recruit, the amateur, and with Duncan gone the role of mentor was supposed to pass to him. And he chickened out. He is a sissy."

Alistair may be a sissy - although I am not sure what the defination of sissy really is. If  your PC was a Dalish Elf, a Dwarf or a Cousland, it is likley that these PC';s had considerable combat experience. This is not so true of a city Elf or Mage. When finally called to be King  (if you went that route) - Alistair stepped up to the plate. He gave credible speeches  to rally his countrymen and the troops when required and accepted his reponsibility - even at great personal cost (depending on your LI). He granted land to the Dalish and freedom to Mages (again depending on your choices) and stuck it to the status quo.

Some of Alistair's whining you have to admit was pretty crafty - I mean getting other people to darn your socks with a little guilt induction? C'mon that's brilliant!!

Now I did harden Alistair, so maybe there was less whining going that route. But hardening comes with maturity and experience, both of which Alistair gained on his journey through the blight. He lost everything that mattered to him, everything  that made him feel accepted and whole. Yup, he shed  tears when Duncan and all his fellow Wardens were slaughtered... I think many men would cry if they lost their entire unit or platoon on the battlefield - particularly if they were the only family they ever knew.

Alistair did seem to have a heart of gold (he even forgave Isolde for Makers sake - I would have slapped her personally). He was funny and compassionate, but brave. And I would jump into his bed in a heartbeat. (Sissy's rule!!!!! LOL)

 Yes - I love Alistair...  I am biased!  Grant me my wishes in fantasy!!!!!

I don't negate your point of view, just saying I have a different persepctive. I think that's what makes these boards fun for me. People have different points of view, Cant get my head around how some fans like Loghain as a character for example.   'Variety is the spice of life 'I  suppose!
 
 And yes - this is non-fiction - but I find games more engaging and enjoyable when you actually  care about the character. That what keeps me coming back for more!

Wow, thanks for this. 

I have to admit, I've never given Alistair's character development a huge amount of thought. I like the guy, but I get into the habit of bringing my favourites with me all the time and not spending much time with him outside of camp.

It was really interesting to read your take on him. He really does seem to have a lot of genuine, balanced and realistic character development over the game. 

[Iansectcrusher]

And abandons your cause if you try to increase your odds at killing the archdemon. I like Al, but when it came down to it he was a ****** poor Grey Warden. Which is why I make him King when I recruit Loghain.

Everyone wins.

[cJohnOne]

What do I care. I like biceps. There should be a flex button. But Seriously...



Anyways there isn't alot of self analysis of male roles. I think this should be a serious discussion.

[ReallyRue]

Iansectcrusher wrote...

And abandons your cause if you try to increase your odds at killing the archdemon. I like Al, but when it came down to it he was a ****** poor Grey Warden. Which is why I make him King when I recruit Loghain.

Everyone wins.

I like to go that route too, mostly because I like Loghain and don't want to kill him, but don't want Alistair to be a wandering drunk either. I think his sensitivity (even when hardened) make him a good counterpoint to Anora's pragmatism anyway.

I really don't like killing or refusing potential companions when I can recruit them. Even Velanna or Leliana, who are optional. And I don't like trying to make Oghren hate me enough to leave.

[New Display Name]

The only thing if I can think of that I want specifically addressed is advertising and it's (at least almost) exclusively of male protagonists and his heterosexual romances.

[nightscrawl]

Crypticqa wrote...

This thread made my day, thank you

Mine too! XD