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[Lenimph]

Xilizhra wrote...


He lacks self-confidence as a leader, but he's quite a good person aside from that one hiccup I mentioned earlier, and a stalwart comrade-in-arms overall.

Oh I never called him a bad person but he's exactly what I'm sick of in Bioware's male characters, especially in the love interests.  

Either they're overly sensitive, their feelings evolving out of some kind tramatic past experience, a large number of them being related to family or friend deaths, (Carth, Sky, Alistair, Fenris, Cortez) or just plainly emotionally unstable. (Anders, who also falls into the death of a "friend" category)  Bioware certainly hasn't followed the male stereotype in making their characters, and if you ask me they've fallen into their own... annoying niche. 

Zevran is a sleeze but at least he seems self reliant.

I wont say more about the other Bioware games but in terms of male companions Varric was pretty much perfect.  He was confident, self reliant, cool, and his friendship with Hawke didn't feel forced and the respect given between the two seemed mutual.   We need more male characters like him.

[thats1evildude]

Varric had a few issues. If he didn't, he wouldn't tell a story about confronting his traitorous older brother and finish it with said brother begging forgiveness for "competing for Mother's love".

Modifié par thats1evildude, 25 février 2013 - 02:52 .

[Lenimph]

He had a few issues yes but he didn't drag it along for the entirety of the game or had it be a main focusing point of his character. You pretty much knew the kind of man Varric was before his conflict with his brother began.

Edit: And the way he handles his issues makes him look like a glorious saint compared to Fenris and Anders... 

Modifié par Lenimph, 25 février 2013 - 03:03 .

[TEWR]

He's, I think, too proud and too selfish to concede that he might've ever made a poor decision

If you get to know him after recruiting him, he doesn't deny he's done horrible things and even says that it can all be called his fault. Whether players and characters in-game agree with his personal assessment of his choices varies, obviously.

Even if I were to recruit him and have him sacrifice his life
to defeat the archdemon, I would not consider him to be redeemed.

The game still allows you to be rather.... volatile towards him. You can call him a slaver right to his face after recruiting him.

[Chiramu]

Iansectcrusher wrote...

 There are no male Desire demons.


That's friggin' sexist right there and I expect--nay, demand-- that this be rectified.

If a desire demon looks similar to how you'd perceive a succubus then there should indeed be a male form of a desire demon as there are incubi(incubus plural) in current fantasy. 

It is fitting as there would be a lot of people in the Dragon Age world who would prefer to take their desires from a male form of a desire demon rather than a female one. A male desire demon voice would just be plain cool too! Wah, I can just imagine his voice chilling my ears!

[Plaintiff]

Desire demons have some female sexual characteristics, but are they actually gendered? The one we encounter in DA2, during Night Terrors, will assume a male form in order to tempt Aveline.

[CuriousArtemis]

Chiramu wrote...

If a desire demon looks similar to how you'd perceive a succubus then there should indeed be a male form of a desire demon as there are incubi(incubus plural) in current fantasy. 

It is fitting as there would be a lot of people in the Dragon Age world who would prefer to take their desires from a male form of a desire demon rather than a female one. A male desire demon voice would just be plain cool too! Wah, I can just imagine his voice chilling my ears!

It is ridiculous that there is no male desire demon. Desire demons' biggest flaw: forgetting the existence of straight women and gay men. Ladies that's half Thedas' population you're letting slip through your claws.

Modifié par motomotogirl, 25 février 2013 - 04:22 .

[TEWR]

Plaintiff wrote...

Desire demons have some female sexual characteristics, but are they actually gendered? The one we encounter in DA2, during Night Terrors, will assume a male form in order to tempt Aveline.

They are not gendered, I believe. IIRC, DG may have said that they could take a male Demon form if they wished. And one Mage scholar who engaged in demonology during the Blessed/Dragon Age -- before going rogue -- theorized that she appeared such because it wished to but wasn't restricted to such a form.

[thats1evildude]

Chiramu wrote...

If a desire demon looks similar to how you'd perceive a succubus then there should indeed be a male form of a desire demon as there are incubi(incubus plural) in current fantasy.

But they're not really succubi. They embody ALL your desires, including the lust for power and wealth. They don't just sex you up like your standard succubus.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 25 février 2013 - 04:46 .

[Chiramu]

Plaintiff wrote...

Desire demons have some female sexual characteristics, but are they actually gendered? The one we encounter in DA2, during Night Terrors, will assume a male form in order to tempt Aveline.

Of course they have no gender, they are an ethereal being that exists in the Fade, in fact killing on should be impossible because you can't kill desires they exist in peoples' minds. But just because they don't belong to a gender group doesn't mean one of the desire demons can't form itself to look like a male. They know what male anatomy is from all the male templars they've seduced, so making a male form desire demon should be easy work.

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Plaintiff wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...
What the hell? Did you just deny and confirm the accusation at the same time?

No.

Reading comprehension. Learn some.

So what you are saying that in order for men to be more attractive to the opposite sex is try to be like Alistair who wasnt created to appeal to the opposite sex? Is that what you are saying because that seriously looks what you are saying?

It certainly wouldn't hurt, but in your position I honestly wouldn't bother.

I was simply remarking on how humorous it is that so many sexist morons think that David Gaider created Alistair to be the ultimate chick magnet, using some sort of magical panty-dropping algorithim. But instead of following Gaider's blueprint to acheive success in their own love lives, which would at least be a productive use of their idiotic assumptions, they choose instead to hang around the internet and **** about him to each other, like jealous girls in the school cafeteria.

Alistair obviously is appealing to a number of women, as these boards and this very thread demonstrate. That does not mean that he was created to pander to stereotypically feminine tastes. In fact, he wasn't. Alistair was created to be likable generally, and as an unintentional side-effect, a lot of women, and gay men, like myself, find him attractive. And a lot of straight men enjoy his character too.

Wit, humour, optimism, honesty and sensitivity are admirable qualities for anyone to possess. All people would do well to try and be more like Alistair. And if it will help more men get laid into the bargain, then so much the better for them.

I see you totally missed the point of our observations. As much as you would like to think that we make such observations out of petty jealousy this simply isnt the case nor are our observations based on the qualities you find attractive as a gay man, while I am sure those qualities do help it goes far deeper than that to the point where it is less about the qualities of the character himself but more about the desires of the person playing the game and how the character meets these desires.

Modifié par Gandalf-the-Fabulous, 25 février 2013 - 07:57 .

[CrystaJ]

Dragon Age Inquisition: now introducing male desire demon with gold plated fitted codpiece.

Alistair whines a lot... but men do that, too, you know. Somehow I suspect that isn't the trait that attracts the hordes of fan girls. It's because he's easily approachable, and I'm pretty sure he was made that way because he serves as your protag's "lancer" so to speak. Making him John Wayne didn't suit his purpose; doing that would make him outshine the perpetually silent and sometimes dumbfounded warden.

Whereas, say, Sten didn't need to fulfill that role... so he can be more of an ****.

EDIT: I would be in favor of more... diverse male LI's. Instead of just two, each with their own personal issues that turn me off. But that's just me.

Modifié par CrystaJ, 25 février 2013 - 09:05 .

[imbs]

Alistair is a deep character apparently. Now I have heard everything. 100% original too I bet.

w8 no you get better written characters in pac man

[Althix]

Wit? well i guess i can give him that.
Humour? that's kinda as well.
Honesty? Hmm... kind of honesty when he wants man dead simply because of revenge? as a senior grey warden he know, that when the one join the order he leaves his past behind.
Optimism? Alistair was emotionaly destroyed because of Duncan's death, which i think he considered as a father, if not for Warden who takes lead, Alistair would rather flee Ferelden imho.
Sensitivity? Sensitivity is a great quality for gaming mouse. With humans it can be very complicated and out of place.

Let us go further.
He is spineless. Which also means he is easy to manipulate. Which is rather flaw for a grown man.
His emotional envolment with Loghain clouds Alistair's judgement. In win-win situation his desire for revenge can ruin everything and put entire nation at risk. Also i should mention that he gets to position of strenght not because of his deeds, but for Warden's.
This emotional involvement also makes him a fool as well as hypocrite.

I think he is a great guy to hang out with, but that is all.

I can write thing or two about Loghain, but i would rather not.

This is my appraisal of Alistair, the drunk.

p.s. the fact that Alistair can be a drunk is also gives you some thoughts right?

Modifié par secretsandlies, 25 février 2013 - 09:31 .

[imbs]

^ you are giving him too much credit if you ask me. most of the time his humor skips right over funny and lands prettily on obnoxious and predictable. The awkward charm thing has been done to death, and has been done better than Bioware managed frankly many times aswell.

The whole virgin thing was pretty blatant as well. I knew he was going to be the moment he mentioned his religious upbringing and his bastardy status. zzzzzzzzzzz.

Submissive, passive, weak. I honestly do not get the Alistair love at all. Sure they made him pretty handsome. I also think his voice actor has a decent tone of voice - far better than carth onasi and his equivalent in ME. Aside from that? zilch.

Modifié par imbs, 25 février 2013 - 09:37 .

[CrystaJ]

If he was truly spineless I figure he would just go along with you deciding to spare Loghain, which is what the rest of your followers do, but he does not. He's quite outspoken and steadfast about that, irrational or not, to the point of leaving your party if you insist on ignoring him and going through with it.

He has plenty of flaws, but I wouldn't call that one of them, to be perfectly honest.

[Orian Tabris]

The role of men in the Dragon Age series, is not as important to me as is the role of women in the Dragon Age series.

For some male characters, it's important that they please the fangirls. That is, Gorim, Fenris, Cullen, Anders, Alistair, Zevran, Teagan, Varric, Nathaniel and The Sten. There might be more that I can't think of right now. Also, do Zev and Sten count?

[imbs]

CrystaJ wrote...

If he was truly spineless I figure he would just go along with you deciding to spare Loghain, which is what the rest of your followers do, but he does not. He's quite outspoken and steadfast about that, irrational or not, to the point of leaving your party if you insist on ignoring him and going through with it.

He has plenty of flaws, but I wouldn't call that one of them, to be perfectly honest.

He's constantly spineless, and is from the very start of the game though. The moment he doesn't have Duncan to blindly follow around he desperately clings to the Warden in the hopes that s/he will have suitable curtails for clinging to as well. Runs from responsibility, any kind of decision making and all that good stuff (doesn't stop him from critiquing tho).

Only time he isnt *utterly* spineless is when he acts against Loghain and gives you a ridiculous ultimatum in front of the nobles. I'd actually argue that this is a break in character for him. You can argue that it's coz of his relationship w/ Duncan but I would argue that he would have broken under the Warden's demands, weak that he is. I reckon he actually acts like that to facilitate the choice of taking Loghain or not.

[Althix]

He can't go along with Warden's decision of making fighting force stronger with Loghain, not because he have a spine, but because he is biatching. Which is also out of place. This brave and glorious adventure ends for Alistair and reality slaps him in the face. His motivation generaly is not to stop the Blight, which is also there of course, but render "judgement" on Loghain. And when you deny him that, you can see what kind of person Alistair truly is.

Landsmeet and all what comes before that is not Alistair's achievement, so he is in no position to demand anything. and "do not play my toys and do not write in my pot" behavior because of Loghain joining to the order is rather childish. Not to mention you can't even reason with him after Landsmeet.

Funny thing, that even if he is married with Anora after that, it is she who leads Ferelden in battle.

[CrystaJ]

imbs wrote...

He's constantly spineless, and is from the very start of the game though. The moment he doesn't have Duncan to blindly follow around he desperately clings to the Warden in the hopes that s/he will have suitable curtails for clinging to as well. Runs from responsibility, any kind of decision making and all that good stuff (doesn't stop him from critiquing tho).

You do realize that in some games he eventually becomes King - even if he complains about it - and if you harden him he's apparently good with the whole governing and responsibility thang?

Doesn't sound like running away to me. It's obvious he doesn't like the pressure that comes with being Mr. Leader Dude, but I can't really blame him myself: politics and war aren't easy things to deal with.

Only time he isnt *utterly* spineless is when he acts against Loghain and gives you a ridiculous ultimatum in front of the nobles. I'd actually argue that this is a break in character for him.

I'm not sure if you're really looking at his character in it's imperfect entirety. Just seeing the imperfect parts lol.

It's pretty clear he's upset about Duncan's death due to Loghain's treachery, so it was perfectly in-character for him to get upset enough to actually ragequit. You're essentially allowing Duncan's murderer go free or letting him die a hero; neither fate is something Alistair would consider befitting, even if it may be a practical solution to your current dilemma.

You can argue that it's coz of his relationship w/ Duncan but I would argue that he would have broken under the Warden's demands, weak that he is. I reckon he actually acts like that to facilitate the choice of taking Loghain or not.

So... he's weak if he actually does let you go down the practical route, too? This guy just can't win, can he?

[Althix]

he can.

he can show some brain, dignity and understanding by joining Warden and Loghain in battle against the Blight. And if both of them survive, Alistair can call Loghain to satisfaction by dueling him in single combat and let the best man win.

But instead he is puting everything at risk.

[imbs]

What? the weak part is the reasoning not the conclusion........ If you can't follow from there then I cba to respond frankly. Alistair isn't an imperfect character, and flaws usually make a character more interesting. It's such a shame that his entire character has been done so many times. Give it a rest already imo.

Hardening Alistair is a weird system. One line in one given situation results in a drastically different Alistair. I find it utterly unbelievable honestly but if you want to take it as a positive then hey why not?

I also realise he becomes King, and the boring clichéd character is complete. The weak, spineless moron becomes a good king. Y to the AWN. I still don't understand where the depth of Alistair comes from, nor do I understand why he has such a large following.

edit- this post is in response to the post that is 2 up from this one :)

Modifié par imbs, 25 février 2013 - 10:14 .

[CrystaJ]

I would just execute the guy afterwards, myself.

The Grey Wardens would argue that Loghain's potential contributions to the order would be significant enough to keep him alive, which is why I assume he doesn't get killed even if he's not the one to pwn the archdemon and Alistair is King.

Which is possible if you harden him, and implies he's indeed capable of showing some "brain, dignity, and understanding." So... you could try to just tell him to stop whining?

[CrystaJ]

What? the weak part is the reasoning not the conclusion........ If you can't follow from there then I cba to respond frankly.

Well, you're assuming his acceptance would be the result of him being weak and unable to make decisions instead of simply being practical like yourself, which is what I find amusing.

So yeah, it seems he could either get upset and refuse or roll over and accept whatever is decided. and doing either is considered a bad thing lol. He really can't win.

[imbs]

CrystaJ wrote...

What? the weak part is the reasoning not the conclusion........ If you can't follow from there then I cba to respond frankly.

Well, you're assuming his acceptance would be the result of him being weak and unable to make decisions instead of simply being practical like yourself, which is what I find amusing.

So yeah, it seems he could either get upset and refuse or roll over and accept whatever is decided. and doing either is considered a bad thing lol. He really can't win.

Except the reason he can't win is because those are the two realistic conclusions his character allows. Either a.) he is his usual submissive self and submits to the Warden's will, or b.) he desires Revenge too much to seize the opportunity and demands an execution. Theres a few other options though, unless you think motivation doesn't matter at all (which it decidedly does if you are analysing his character).

The most obvious other option is pushing his thirst for revenge aside to allow Loghain to join the Wardens in order to strengthen their campaign against the darkspawn. Let's call it the "for the greater good" option. He can win if he does this, I just don't think he would have it in him. I think that if he did indeed decide to not impede Loghain's induction into the Wardens then it would be a result of a.). This is just an opinion but still.

Modifié par imbs, 25 février 2013 - 10:25 .