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[The Hierophant]

Since DA takes place in a progressive fantasy setting, could the devs vary the depictions of the serial killers, rapists, alcoholics, oafs, absent parent, Magisters and corrupt officials as they're mostly male?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 25 février 2013 - 06:05 .

[Xilizhra]

The Hierophant wrote...

Since DA takes place in a progressive fantasy setting, could the devs vary the depictions of the serial killers, rapists, alcoholics, oafs, absent parent, Magisters and corrupt officials as they're mostly male?

Meredith
Petrice
Elthina
Dalish Warden's mother who left at one point
Dwarf Commoner Warden's mother
The Baroness
Hadriana
Etc.

[SpunkyMonkey]

Flemeth wasn't the greatest of parents either lol

[Lenimph]

Don't forget Marjolaine

[Lenimph]

Xilizhra wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

Alistair is a heterosexual romance option only.

Therefore Alistair is heterosexual.

People said that about Kaidan, too, and look how that turned out. Of course, Kaidan was originally intended to be bisexual, but the ME team got scared and backed out; luckily, it was restored.

Yeah there's nothing straight about the innuedo of "licking a lamp post in winter"

[Zkyire]

I see.

I like how some people here seem to switch between the "secure enough in his sexuality" and "he wouldn't say that if he's not flirting" reasoning to fit their desire.

[The Hierophant]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Since DA takes place in a progressive fantasy setting, could the devs vary the depictions of the serial killers, rapists, alcoholics, oafs, absent parent, Magisters and corrupt officials as they're mostly male?

Meredith - compared to Ser Karras, Samson, Cullen, Ser Mettin, Ser Alrik. Lambert, Orsino etc.

Petrice - I was thinking of city officials like Aveline's boss the previous gaurd captain, Kelder's father a Magistrate, the Templars and the First Enchanter who's actual job is to oversee people.

Elthina - ? 

Dalish Warden's mother who left at one point - compared to Oghren, Gamlen, Vincento, Maric, who's abandonements are the subjects of quests where the negative impacts they've had on the characters are highlighted. Sandal's an unknown.

Dwarf Commoner Warden's mother - Good point i forgot she existed.

The Baroness - contrast her too Loghain, Howe, Arland, Bann Vaughn, Corypheus, Danarius, Caladrius etc.

Hadriana - ^
Etc.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 25 février 2013 - 07:22 .

[Ashelsu]

Branka has no rivals.

[ReallyRue]

The Hierophant wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Since DA takes place in a progressive fantasy setting, could the devs vary the depictions of the serial killers, rapists, alcoholics, oafs, absent parent, Magisters and corrupt officials as they're mostly male?

Meredith - compared to Ser Karras, Samson, Cullen, Ser Mettin, Ser Alrik. Lambert, Orsino etc.

Petrice - I was thinking of city officials like Aveline's boss the previous gaurd captain, Kelder's father a Magistrate, the Templars and the First Enchanter who's actual job is to oversee people.

Elthina - ? 

Dalish Warden's mother who left at one point - compared to Oghren, Gamlen, Vincento, Maric, who's abandonements are the subjects of quests where the negative impacts they've had on the characters are highlighted. Sandal's an unknown.

Dwarf Commoner Warden's mother - Good point i forgot she existed.

The Baroness - contrast her too Loghain, Howe, Arland, Bann Vaughn, Corypheus, Danarius, Caladrius etc.

Hadriana - ^
Etc.

Grace, Marjolaine, Esmerelle, Branka, Flemeth, Cauthrien, Taronhe, Idunna, Rylock, Lady Hariman, Goldanna, Ineria,  the templar hunting Feynriel among the Dalish, the elf woman working with the Alienage slavers in DAO, the templar woman who tries to put you off finding Keran. What's-her-face from The Calling. Guinevere? Genevieve? Dragon Age seems to have plenty of nutty, amoral or generally unpleasant women.

To be fair, DA also has a lot of good men who have noble ideals, do good deeds, and so on.

Modifié par ReallyRue, 25 février 2013 - 07:49 .

[Dutchess]

^I wouldn't say that Cauthrien was amoral. And who are Esmerelle, Rylock and Ineria? I honestly don't recognize those names. xD

[Ashelsu]

Esmerelle is a bann of Amaranthine, Rylock is a female templar who hunts for Anders (both are DAA).

[ReallyRue]

renjility wrote...

^I wouldn't say that Cauthrien was amoral. And who are Esmerelle, Rylock and Ineria? I honestly don't recognize those names. xD

I was going for generally not squeaky-clean characters, and the fact the follows Loghain nearly unquestioningly tips her firmly into that area for me. Tbh though, we don't see enough of her to get much info on her moral compass, I think.

Esmerelle was the leader of Amaranthine in Awakening, who is set up as being callous and underhanded, an old friend of Howe's, and the main conspirator against the Warden. Rylock is the zealot templar after Anders in Awakening. Ineria is the most hostile of the Dalish in DA2, and the one who is most firmly against Merrill. I included her because she was getting aggressive and threatening whilst the male Fenarel was more diplomatic and will decide that Merrill and Hawke should leave (rather than die) if the rivalry option is chosen. I could have actually included Morrigan, Shale and Velanna on this list, since they are some of the most morally questionable companions we've had.

[Dutchess]

ReallyRue wrote...

renjility wrote...

^I wouldn't say that Cauthrien was amoral. And who are Esmerelle, Rylock and Ineria? I honestly don't recognize those names. xD

I was going for generally not squeaky-clean characters, and the fact the follows Loghain nearly unquestioningly tips her firmly into that area for me. Tbh though, we don't see enough of her to get much info on her moral compass, I think.

Esmerelle was the leader of Amaranthine in Awakening, who is set up as being callous and underhanded, an old friend of Howe's, and the main conspirator against the Warden. Rylock is the zealot templar after Anders in Awakening. Ineria is the most hostile of the Dalish in DA2, and the one who is most firmly against Merrill. I included her because she was getting aggressive and threatening whilst the male Fenarel was more diplomatic and will decide that Merrill and Hawke should leave (rather than die) if the rivalry option is chosen. I could have actually included Morrigan, Shale and Velanna on this list, since they are some of the most morally questionable companions we've had.

Ah, alright. Thanks. I remember Esmerelle now, but would never have come up with the templar and the Dalish elf.

[The Hierophant]

ReallyRue wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Since DA takes place in a progressive fantasy setting, could the devs vary the depictions of the serial killers, rapists, alcoholics, oafs, absent parent, Magisters and corrupt officials as they're mostly male?

Meredith - compared to Ser Karras, Samson, Cullen, Ser Mettin, Ser Alrik. Lambert, Orsino etc.

Petrice - I was thinking of city officials like Aveline's boss the previous gaurd captain, Kelder's father a Magistrate, the Templars and the First Enchanter who's actual job is to oversee people.

Elthina - ? 

Dalish Warden's mother who left at one point - compared to Oghren, Gamlen, Vincento, Maric, who's abandonements are the subjects of quests where the negative impacts they've had on the characters are highlighted. Sandal's an unknown.

Dwarf Commoner Warden's mother - Good point i forgot she existed.

The Baroness - contrast her too Loghain, Howe, Arland, Bann Vaughn, Corypheus, Danarius, Caladrius etc.

Hadriana - ^
Etc.

Grace, Marjolaine, Esmerelle, Branka, Flemeth, Cauthrien, Taronhe, Idunna, Rylock, Lady Hariman, Goldanna, Ineria,  the templar hunting Feynriel among the Dalish, the elf woman working with the Alienage slavers in DAO, the templar woman who tries to put you off finding Keran. What's-her-face from The Calling. Guinevere? Genevieve? Dragon Age seems to have plenty of nutty, amoral or generally unpleasant women.

To be fair, DA also has a lot of good men who have noble ideals, do good deeds, and so on.

It's not about men being antagonsists but who's commiting what crimes or social issues like family abandonment. Most of the sexual assualts are commited by men, while the only noted serial killers are both males who target females. I figured since DA is a progressive fantasy setting that It would be nice to see the offenders of certain crimes vary in gender. 

Modifié par The Hierophant, 25 février 2013 - 08:39 .

[DukeFirewood]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

Have you ever licked a lamppost in winter?[/quote]

I do not understand this?

[quote]Yes, you did. Quite explicitly.[/quote]

Please show me where I said this explicitly.

[quote]How else is anyone supposed to interpret that sentence? If you didn't mean to say that emotionally expressive men, and men that care about their looks are "weak", then why did you specifically single out those characteristics as being separate from the qualities of a "stronger male character"?[/quote]

Okay, I get what you're saying, perhaps I worded it wrong. What I'm saying is that I want a male character who doesn't give a care about stuff like that. A perfect example of this is Shepherd in ME3. Shepherd had a whole ship at his command and he didn't talk about his feelings to any of them for fear of coming across as weak and breaking the very fragile morale his crew had, in turn this ate him up. Now keeping such feelings to yourself will eat you and break you, but Shepherd came across as a man at the end of his rope, willing to do anything while still portraying himself as the man of steel his crew came to know him as. To me he came across as a strong male character. 

Not Anders, crying about everything while still professing undying love in the same sentence. 
[quote]The obvious implication being that emotionally open men are not confident with being men? That they must secretly wish to be women?


Not at all, in my personal point of view though, I don't think a man should be as weak willed as Anders. He had no conviction, he laid everything out on the table and even his dialogue wasn't strong.[/quote]
[quote]No, you're just saying that men who aren't like that are not "real" men. That possessing these qualities you dislike means that they are fake men.
 
Not at all. A man can show his softer side, most certainly, but not like Anders did. It comes down to how I view men and women. I'm not forcing it on you and I am just saying I don't want another bisexual character forced onto me.
[/quote]
[quote]And now you've gone from implying it to simply stating it outright. Bravo.
[/quote]

personal point of view chap. [/quote]

[New Display Name]

A perfect example of this is Shepherd in ME3. Shepherd had a whole ship at his command and he didn't talk about his feelings to any of them for fear of coming across as weak and breaking the very fragile morale his crew had, in turn this ate him up.

Uh, what. You have many opportunities for Shepard to express his feelings. You can choose not to, but it's not mandatory...

[ReallyRue]

The Hierophant wrote...
It's not about men being antagonsists but who's commiting what crimes or social issues like family abandonment. Most of the sexual assualts are commited by men, while the only noted serial killers are both males who target females. I figured since DA is a progressive fantasy setting that It would be nice to see the offenders of certain crimes vary in gender. 

Fair enough, I misunderstood what you were getting at.
It seems like that's a wider problem than Dragon Age, and it would indeed be interesting to see more female abusers/murderers and more male victims. Particularly when it comes to storylines like Kelder and Quentin. I think the fact that gender politics are different in DA to the real world especially means that there should be more balance or diversity among who takes what role.

[Dutchess]

The Hierophant wrote...

It's not about men being antagonsists but who's commiting what crimes or social issues like family abandonment. Most of the sexual assualts are commited by men, while the only noted serial killers are both males who target females. I figured since DA is a progressive fantasy setting that It would be nice to see the offenders of certain crimes vary in gender. 

That's probably because in real life about 90% of the sexual assaults are committed by men as well. It's simply more likely to have a male rapist. Perhaps it could be applicable to Hadriana with Fenris, but the game only drops a few hints about Danarius being "intimate" with Fenris, so that one is all up to imagination as well. 

[The Hierophant]

renjility wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

It's not about men being antagonsists but who's commiting what crimes or social issues like family abandonment. Most of the sexual assualts are commited by men, while the only noted serial killers are both males who target females. I figured since DA is a progressive fantasy setting that It would be nice to see the offenders of certain crimes vary in gender. 

That's probably because in real life about 90% of the sexual assaults are committed by men as well. It's simply more likely to have a male rapist. Perhaps it could be applicable to Hadriana with Fenris, but the game only drops a few hints about Danarius being "intimate" with Fenris, so that one is all up to imagination as well. 

I know about irl crime rates but to only transfer that over to a progressive medieval fantasy setting where women hold just as much power, and influence as men.(probably even more so) Are as physically capable as men, as well as being warriors/knights who serve on the frontlines in conflicts, and there's a continent spanning religion who's clergy are dominated by women whereas the male positions are the equivalent of Catholic nuns, seems absurd as Thedas is socially incomparable to any recorded historical period on our planet outside of visuals. 

Yeah i might be looking into it too much but it just seems off given how Thedas' society developed.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 26 février 2013 - 04:18 .

[CrystaJ]

I'd be for it, but I wouldn't be surprised if we never see a female rapist in a Dragon Age game just because the amount of male vulnerability in the current games already seems to annoy some people.

Serial killers should definitely be doable though!

Modifié par CrystaJ, 26 février 2013 - 02:55 .

[Plaintiff]

Zkyire wrote...
A man not expressing or exploring any homosexual desires = probably bisexual?

No. But a man not expressing or exploring any homosexual desires =/= proof heterosexuality.

The writers have pretty much established that nobody (which is beyond belief) has any problem with the sexuality of individuals, so given that, what possible reason could Alistair have for not expressing it to anyone, ever if he had any such desires to begin with?

Maybe because it's not relevant? Or because he just doesn't find the male warden attractive under any circumstance?

I don't see why it's "beyond belief" that homosexuality would be accepted across Thedas. There are plenty of societies in the history of our own world where, as near as can be told, virtually nobody had any  problem with homosexuality. And in some cases homosexual relationships were actively encouraged.

The dominant religious text of Thedas, the Chant of Light, has nothing to say about homosexuals one way or the other. There's no reason to assume that their society would develop homophobic tendencies by default.

Don't you think it's just as likely if not more likely that he's simply not interested?

That's what I was saying from the start. There is no conclusive proof that Alistair is anything.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 26 février 2013 - 07:44 .

[Silfren]

I can't get over all the Alistair hate in here. I'm especially surprised that a lot of people think his so-called whininess and "spinelessness" seem to think this makes him a poorly written character.

I wonder how many people here have ever lived the kind of life Alistair is shown to have, or have experienced any kind of serious emotional trauma, given how bloody insensitive many show themselves to be. Alistair's entire freakin' character arc is that he has been emotionally trampled his entire life. He's always had it beaten into him that he is nothing, of no consequence, not good enough to do anything. Apparently this was done in no small part to prevent him from ever having notions of challenging Cailan for the throne. But seriously, he's been made to feel, all his life, that he is unworthy this, unworthy that. Arl Eamon, who is supposedly so benevolent, made the kid sleep on hay in the stables, presumably to drive home the point of Alistair's lowborn station and to reinforce that whole thing about Alistair NOT being good enough to ever think himself capable of threatening Cailan's inheritance. THIS is why Alistair turns the reins over to the Warden. Well, that, and the loss of Duncan. Alistair has been taught to believe he is anything BUT a leader, so he never imagined having to lead the Wardens at all. But on top of that, he just lost his father figure. More than his disbelief in his ability to be a leader, he's emotionally broken. Is it so hard to grasp why he would let someone else call the shots while he struggles with overwhelming grief?

This isn't unrealistic. It's exactly how people in real life DO turn out in most cases when they've been emotionally abused throughout their childhood, and how they react to the sudden unexpected loss of the first person ever to give a damn about their opinion. They end up with no confidence, no sense of self-worth, no belief in their ability to do anything. For most people it takes a considerable about of therapy to overcome the kind of debilitating self-image created by that kind of upbringing.

There are some people here who must be total jerkasses in real life, because there's no way that they DON'T have at least one person in their life who is emotionally crippled in some fashion.

[NorwegianPirate]

Silfren wrote...

This isn't unrealistic. It's exactly how people in real life DO turn out in most cases when they've been emotionally abused throughout their childhood, and how they react to the sudden unexpected loss of the first person ever to give a damn about their opinion. They end up with no confidence, no sense of self-worth, no belief in their ability to do anything. For most people it takes a considerable about of therapy to overcome the kind of debilitating self-image created by that kind of upbringing.

Yes, pretty much. I also get a little confused when people call his desire to see Loghain dead "petty vengeance" - especially if they played Couslands/Tabrises who delighted in killing Howe/Vaughan. If someone had slaughered the only people I'd ever considered family, pinned the murder on me, sent assassins after me and just generally done really horrible things across the nation I'm pretty sure I'd want this person at the very least thrown in the dungeons forever. If someone had said "hey, instead of doing that, what if we give him the greatest honor you could possibly imagine and make him your brother-in-arms", my reaction would not have been a pretty one, let me tell you.

[SpunkyMonkey]

NorwegianPirate wrote...

Silfren wrote...

This isn't unrealistic. It's exactly how people in real life DO turn out in most cases when they've been emotionally abused throughout their childhood, and how they react to the sudden unexpected loss of the first person ever to give a damn about their opinion. They end up with no confidence, no sense of self-worth, no belief in their ability to do anything. For most people it takes a considerable about of therapy to overcome the kind of debilitating self-image created by that kind of upbringing.

Yes, pretty much. I also get a little confused when people call his desire to see Loghain dead "petty vengeance" - especially if they played Couslands/Tabrises who delighted in killing Howe/Vaughan. If someone had slaughered the only people I'd ever considered family, pinned the murder on me, sent assassins after me and just generally done really horrible things across the nation I'm pretty sure I'd want this person at the very least thrown in the dungeons forever. If someone had said "hey, instead of doing that, what if we give him the greatest honor you could possibly imagine and make him your brother-in-arms", my reaction would not have been a pretty one, let me tell you.

I've wanted to break people's necks for cutting me up in traffic. Given the above I dread to think how I'd feel!

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 26 février 2013 - 10:25 .

[Xilizhra]

Yes, pretty much. I also get a little confused when people call his desire to see Loghain dead "petty vengeance" - especially if they played Couslands/Tabrises who delighted in killing Howe/Vaughan. If someone had slaughered the only people I'd ever considered family, pinned the murder on me, sent assassins after me and just generally done really horrible things across the nation I'm pretty sure I'd want this person at the very least thrown in the dungeons forever. If someone had said "hey, instead of doing that, what if we give him the greatest honor you could possibly imagine and make him your brother-in-arms", my reaction would not have been a pretty one, let me tell you.

My killing of Vaughan was to defend people, not out of revenge (which is why I don't kill him on any other characters). Loghain is already beaten. It's not petty, but it's not something I truly support. Also, Alistair's views on joining the Grey Wardens are a tad naive.